<viric>
doesn't anyone here have a more powerful mips than the nanonote?
<viric>
I think I could run the nanonote programs in a chroot in a Fuloong MiniPC
<kyak>
you? :)
<viric>
:)
<viric>
speed is not the problem :)
<kyak>
i'll try to debug something else
<kyak>
maybe stardict is too damn tricky
<viric>
kyak: try gdbserver, and debug on the PC
<kyak>
a very good idea
<kyak>
should i run gdbserver on my PC?
<viric>
no
<viric>
gdb in your PC, gdbserver in the nanonote
<viric>
or qemu
<kyak>
ah, ok.. will have to read about that
<viric>
you need a gdb that can understand mips though
<viric>
a 'cross-gdb'
<kyak>
yes, such is avaialble
<kyak>
in a toolchain
<viric>
you can use the network
<kyak>
Starting program: /bin/ls
<kyak>
vfork: Cannot allocate memory.
<viric>
you start a gdbserver in one side... and in the cross-gdb in the pc you run "target remote xx.xx.xx.xx:1234" whatever ip:port there.
<kyak>
it's really-really strange
<viric>
maybe that gdb is not very well built
<kyak>
gdb is not able to debug even simpliest apps
<viric>
I'll try with mine...
<kyak>
yes, maybe
<kyak>
will try with gdbserver
<rafa>
viric: I have ran gdb in nanonote without problems
<viric>
rafa: good to know! :)
<lunavorax>
Hi everyone !
<lunavorax>
I wanted to ask a software question about the Ben Nanonote
<bartbes>
lunavorax: ask away
<bartbes>
we won't know if anyone can answer it before it has been posed
<lunavorax>
What display server (or windows manager, I have troubles figuring out the good word) is used on the Ben Nanonote instead of X.org (or is it X11 ? can't figure out)
<bartbes>
none
<bartbes>
the openwrt kernel uses direct framebuffer access
<lunavorax>
So how does the display work ?
<lunavorax>
Ok
<bartbes>
jlime has an X server
<lunavorax>
openwrt kernel = regular gnu/linux kernel right ?
<bartbes>
the one that comes preinstalled and the official qi-hardware one, yes
<bartbes>
why do you ask, if I may?
<lunavorax>
Well I was just wondering how it was working
<lunavorax>
I started wondering with something unrealated in fact
<lunavorax>
The Wayland project
<bartbes>
well, good thing a lot of toolkits have fb support
<lunavorax>
Yeah
<bartbes>
oh heh, I doubt we'll see the needed hardware acceleration
<lunavorax>
Also I saw a guy made one here "because X11 sucks" on github
<lunavorax>
No no I wasn't talking about that
<lunavorax>
It's just that it started my question about how all this stuff was working
<lunavorax>
Also I already knew that X11 was slow and I was "at last a descent replacment"
<bartbes>
well display server architecture is an interesting topic
<bartbes>
and I love it how they said they weren't going to care about network transparency so much, and then specifically the shitstorm of scared users saying "but I need networked displays!"
<bartbes>
not realizing that the wayland guys still want that possibility
<lunavorax>
(also I was wondering when I saw that some libraries like Allegro could make softwares that doesn't need X to run
<bartbes>
ah well
<bartbes>
well, afaik there are only a few real options for rendering
<lunavorax>
Yeah I actually didn't understood what network transparency (in fact all the network stuff on a local display server concept)
<bartbes>
framebuffers are quite direct
<bartbes>
there's X
<bartbes>
there's OpenGL
<bartbes>
and then now there's wayland, but afaik it runs on top of gl
<lunavorax>
Yeah
<lunavorax>
You think it's a default ?
<bartbes>
well, you see, X' network transparency is kind of weird
<bartbes>
you see
<bartbes>
instead of using direct calls
<bartbes>
or even unix sockets
<bartbes>
or named pipes
<bartbes>
you use full-blown network sockets
<bartbes>
*always*
<bartbes>
which is inefficient
<lunavorax>
Oh wait OpenGL
<lunavorax>
Does that means that when I use Compiz, it doesn't use X anymore ?
<wpwrak_>
bartbes: (always) unless you use SHM
<bartbes>
shm?
<bartbes>
lunavorax: it does use X
<bartbes>
;)
<lunavorax>
Haha ok
<bartbes>
but iirc the X server needs GL extensions
<viric>
bartbes: X uses unix sockets locally
<bartbes>
oh right
<bartbes>
but still, sockets
<wpwrak_>
bartbes: shared memory. x has a number of ways for using more efficient paths when available.
<bartbes>
I mean, I didn't spend too much time looking into this stuff
<viric>
bartbes: you have a strong opinion though ;)
<bartbes>
I just read tiny bits of info spread over time, then combined that
<wpwrak_>
viric: the less you know, the easier it is to hold a strong belief ;-)
<bartbes>
wpwrak_: that is not true
<bartbes>
I mean, I said I read tiny bits
<bartbes>
but I read a lot of them
<bartbes>
:P
<bartbes>
I mean, in all this time I have absorbed quite a bit of information
<bartbes>
and it helps me not be a sheep
<viric>
:)
<bartbes>
it's one of the reasons I'm not shouting "I need  network transparency, X rules, wayland sucks, and canonical sucks"
<viric>
It feels comfortable that, most software we have today is built on X instead of something else that may not be easily used through a network
<viric>
Maybe it could be better, and new software is going to show that... but luckily we don't have something worse :)
<bartbes>
hmm
<bartbes>
the thing is
<bartbes>
it makes no diff in the programs themselves
<bartbes>
it's probably a small diff in the toolkit (for the networking, of course X support is quite a bit more complicated)
<wpwrak_>
bartbes: yeah, my comment was a little nasty, i admit :)
<bartbes>
and that is the goal of the transparency
<bartbes>
a program doesn't need to have a clue
<viric>
well, a program for X does not have to have a lot of clue.
<viric>
It could be better, sure.
<bartbes>
tbh there are lots of programs that don't have a clue
<bartbes>
same goes for programmers
<bartbes>
but that is something entirely unrelated :P
<viric>
:)
<viric>
I never wrote a program dealing with the X libs directly...
<viric>
The kind of abstraction you may want is that given by Qt or similar. Isn't it?
<wpwrak_>
yup. or Gtk, SDL, ...
<wpwrak_>
they may draw some concepts from X, e.g., color allocation, but they wrap them into their own style and mechanisms
<bartbes>
SDL is very nice
<bartbes>
it can do fb, X, svgalib and more
<bartbes>
transparent to the program
<bartbes>
anyway, I did some xlib
<bartbes>
not to put something on the screen, but I needed the Xlib features
<viric>
isn't xcb any better?
<bartbes>
no idea
<bartbes>
I just know it had the direct access I needed
<rafa>
I have been tempted to write a new GUI for freerunner using just C + fb and sdl, because after some tests it is the fatest thing I have seen :).. but I dream with a lot of things I will be doing.. And then, at the end of the year, I realize that I just did two or three things of that 200 items list I often dream ;-))
<viric>
X is very bad at caching application buffers though
<wpwrak_>
rafa: (3/200) a common problem ;)
<bartbes>
viric: caching?
<bartbes>
you mean what wayland is trying to solve (amongst other problems) by letting the application tell the server what to redraw when?
<viric>
bartbes: so any redraw needed in the server goes to the client.
<rafa>
wpwrak_: it gets worst because the 200 items number increases a lot every year.. and the items done does not so fast than total items todo :D
<viric>
bartbes: I'm not following wayland
<wpwrak_>
rafa: ah, exponential growth. now that is bad :)
<bartbes>
wpwrak_: you should clear the list sometime ;)
<wpwrak_>
viric: are redraws really that big a problem ? and X11 should still have server-side backing store. http://www.ess.co.at/FAQ/faq001.html
<viric>
server-side backing store? I never saw it
<viric>
ohh nice option
<viric>
wpwrak_: but that does not work as cache, right? I mean that the option will change what the user sees, but not the network usage.
<wpwrak_>
as far as i understand it, it does work as a sever-side cache
<viric>
it may have a counterpart other than 'it takes more memory'
<wpwrak_>
if you're local and the content isn't particularly hard to recreate, redraws may be good enough. in fact, i think redraws may be relatively infrequent anyway.
<viric>
they happen on window resizing, or a window getting in front of another
<wpwrak_>
i think the tendency nowadays is a "redraw from model" pipe anyway
<wpwrak_>
yes, and how often do you resize/restack windows, compared to other operations ? :)
<wpwrak_>
restacking could be a problem if don't have enough screen space, though.
<wpwrak_>
ah, and when you resize, you probably want to redraw anyway
<viric>
wpwrak_: I resize often, using a tiling window manager :)
<wpwrak_>
particularly if you follow the "redraw from model" paradigm
<wpwrak_>
urgh :)
<viric>
wpwrak_: also causes a redraw the switching of 'desktops'
<viric>
or however you call it.
<viric>
Full screens of organized windows.
<wpwrak_>
yeah, switching desktops is something i do a lot, too
<viric>
do you have that option switched on, for caching?
<wpwrak_>
ah, the other one is save-under. e.g., when you pop up a window on top of another, the occluded window gets saved
<wpwrak_>
no, neither of them
<wpwrak_>
i'm not sure they would accelerate what i'm doing much. most things are fast anyway ;-)
<viric>
:)
<viric>
you helped me a lot letting me know the options are there.
<viric>
When I'll experience X11 network speed troubles, I may remember them
<viric>
kyak: gdb works here, I think
<kristianpaul>
(the less you know, the easier it is to hold a strong belief) That works almost everywhere
<kristianpaul>
git can just tell me commit history for my current folder?
<kristianpaul>
sie code generator?..
<kristianpaul>
will be nice if carlos camargo once at week join irc and tell us what he is doing