<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: made trace connecting the relays to 5V look less accidental (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d8d3727
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed hole in DIP from 0.5 mm to 0.8 mm, ratio from 2.5 to 2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/2a08a7d
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed resistors for opto-coupler LEDs from 180 to 150 Ohm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/14f70fd
<ps2chiper>
I have a hardware project i would like to do, i told larsc about it already. its an ubuntu thin client based on amlogic. but i dont know if it would be copyleft approved
<ps2chiper>
hey larsc, when is this channel most active?
<larsc>
usually when there is an interesting subject to discuess ;)
<ps2chiper>
poor me
<ps2chiper>
larsc do you work for a solution company like windriver?
<larsc>
give it some time, people in here are from all around the world so some might be asleep
<larsc>
ps2chiper: never!
<ps2chiper>
i understand, i just want to know what time to be on at.
<ps2chiper>
what do you do for work in that case?
<larsc>
a semiconductor company
<ps2chiper>
can you name said company?
<larsc>
analog devices
<ps2chiper>
speaking of them, do you have a switch for controlling the power of a usb port by gpio?
<larsc>
most likely yes
<ps2chiper>
do you have the sales guy email address that could help me locate that part?
<larsc>
nope
<ps2chiper>
any way to help me on that issue at all?
<larsc>
not really
<ps2chiper>
thanks anyway
<ps2chiper>
what products do you work on?
<larsc>
audio codecs right now
<ps2chiper>
do you have any that are spi and pcm compatible, i had some openwrt ideas i wanted to look into
<larsc>
mostly all of them are
<larsc>
some though only have an i2c control port
<ps2chiper>
can you compete with realtek price wise?
<larsc>
i don't know realtek prices
<ps2chiper>
about 2 usd
<larsc>
depends on what kind of codec you want, but generally yes
<larsc>
and quantiy of course
<ps2chiper>
like 10k quanity
<ps2chiper>
quantity
<ps2chiper>
i had an idea for openwrt clock radio and openwrt phone
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: (thin client) so ... what are you looking for ?
<ps2chiper>
im not a programmer, i need help with the software. i was told that if the bsp is good enough it can easy enough to get ubuntu running. but since its android based it could require serious hacking. or cant run ubuntu without a vanilla kernel from amlogic
<wpwrak>
a bsp is usually a losing proposition, since these tend to be frozen somewhere in the past. of course, if you get one that's actively maintained ...
<ps2chiper>
well the public kernel is at .34. i dont mind 10.04 ubuntu since that is a lts
<wpwrak>
a bsp can be a starting point for making a kernel that is actually long-term viable, though. whether this works of not depends on whether the bsp includes binary-only stuff
<ps2chiper>
they dont have the userspace for the gpu available, so i doubt that will happen.
<ps2chiper>
the only reason i want to use amlogic is because its so cheap and easy to build
<ps2chiper>
only a 4 layer pcb and a soc cost of 13 usd
<wpwrak>
cheap, as in "hidden cost" ? ;-)
<ps2chiper>
what do you mean by hidden cost?
<wpwrak>
some things cost you very little upfront. but you have to spend a lot of work to make them do what you want.
<ps2chiper>
if your talking software, all the vendors these days are hell bent on android
<wpwrak>
also, amlogic is an entire system, right ? can you be sure the platform will be available for a while, without major changes ? or are you talking about what is commonly called an "anti-vendor port" ?
<ps2chiper>
hardware wise is not a problem since i work for a factory in shenzhen
<wpwrak>
so you're saying you can make the hardware, no matter what amlogic decide to do ?
<ps2chiper>
well the amlogic soc was built with dvb in mind. amlogic is supposed to make their dvb code public this month too.
<ps2chiper>
well we are already using their platform to build a stb, we are going to try to port xbmc to it.
<ps2chiper>
key word try
<wpwrak>
;-)
<ps2chiper>
but they have that crappy android media player with a dvb tuner menu
<ps2chiper>
so we are going to use that to build dvb-t/c/s2/atsc devices
<wpwrak>
neither stb or xbmc tell me anything. but ubuntu means basically linux. yet it sounds you're looking for more specific features ?
<ps2chiper>
and pray we can get openelec to work
<ps2chiper>
me, i feel that i could build a amlogic system at a bom cost of 30-40usd
<ps2chiper>
and im an ubuntu user, so i want to build ubuntu hardware
<wpwrak>
what would the hardware do ?
<ps2chiper>
except that aint easy with no devs that want to work on profit sharing
<ps2chiper>
which hardware are you talking about, stb or thin client
<wpwrak>
the hardware you can build for 30-40 USD BOM
<ps2chiper>
a mini itx board
<wpwrak>
so it's x86 ?
<ps2chiper>
no, i mean 17cm x 17cm size so it can fit in mini itx cases
<wpwrak>
ok. itx form factor. what would it do ? boot, say "hello, world !", then shut down ?
<ps2chiper>
well thats why i am trying to hunt down a dev that would like to help put ubuntu on it
<ps2chiper>
i wouldnt build hardware without software
<wpwrak>
if you want to "put ubuntu on it", then you probably have to talk to shuttleworth or someone high-ranking at ubuntu
<ps2chiper>
ive been chasing eric miao for months
<ps2chiper>
he always puts it off, so i am trying to find someone else
<ps2chiper>
i dont care if its official or not at this point
<wpwrak>
if you want to build a platform that could run any distribution, including ubuntu, you'd have smaller piece of work on your hands
<wpwrak>
whether you'd find someone who'd do whatever is necessary to make ubuntu run on it, is another question
<ps2chiper>
amlogic hardware is already for sale, has been for a few months
<wpwrak>
i suppose, a prerequisite may still be that it runs debian
<ps2chiper>
just from an average user stand point, they would demand ubuntu
<wpwrak>
so what you're looking for is a strategic alliance with ubuntu
<ps2chiper>
what other people do with the hardware is up to them, i will always supply my code to the public
<ps2chiper>
no more than qi hardware has a strategic alliance with openwrt
<roh>
ubuntu is only good on powerfull machines. i dont see any sense in using it for stuff thats optimized to be used like an appliance (which stb defintively fits into)
<wpwrak>
so ubuntu .. hmm, approval, isn't a prerequisite for you to make the hardware and/or make regular linux run on it ?
<ps2chiper>
well they have an imx535 board that ships with ubuntu, people say that runs fine
<roh>
its more a question of 'does it make sense'
<wpwrak>
roh: for better or worse, ubuntu is recently targeting small devices. tablets and such
<ps2chiper>
well with the hardware video decoding, it does make sense since it wont have problems watching movies
<ps2chiper>
most task dont require that much power
<ps2chiper>
im using a 4 year old pc right now
<roh>
a distro like openwrt is simply spoken much more intended to be used as appliance compared to a 'multi-hw-desktop/server'-distro like ubuntu or debian.
<ps2chiper>
i think unity is for arm tablets
<ps2chiper>
it doesnt feel right on a desktop
<wpwrak>
;-)
<roh>
wpwrak: i know. but it has not much to do with the regular ubuntu branches and its fuckingly slow on these devices. and you need a completely reworked ui since on touch/remote only devices no regular desktop apps or ui makes any sense.
<wpwrak>
roh: well, they;ve been busy dumbing down the UI ...
<roh>
wpwrak: in the end... if you do not have a disk, fast internet and a cpu >=800mhz its no fun to use a desktop os
<ps2chiper>
thats why if the amlogic .34 kernel can support 10.04, it would be good enough to start with and just run the project for year and do another one based on a newer soc later on
<wpwrak>
roh: just wait, a few more years, and it will all be just one button - like the rotten fruit's mouse :)
<wpwrak>
(actually, do apple mice still have just one button, like in the old days, or have they grown more ?)
<roh>
wpwrak: maybe. still makes no sense/things easier to build an appliance from it. besides.. support for ubuntu based ce-devices (pdas, pads etc) is really bad. you basically are stuck with what you got it with. usually you already have no support for your special hw one major release later (1 year)
<viric>
kyak: ping
<wpwrak>
roh: hmm, but that's not an intrinsic ubuntu problem
<roh>
so from my perspective... building a device without keyboard+mouse/touchpad/touchscreen, dont use ubuntu, use openwrt or similar.
<ps2chiper>
come on guys, i just want to build a cheap ubuntu thin client. not debate philosophy
<roh>
wpwrak: it is for any 'big vendor <-> small vendor vertical' check history.
<roh>
ps2chiper: there are zillions. why care?
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: i think ubuntu is secondary to your project. the first step would to be have control of the platform. that may also include determining which peripherals you can't support, due to non-open drivers.
<viric>
ps2chiper: you are free to make an ubuntu for the nanonote :)
<roh>
ps2chiper: besides. as soon as you can run ubuntu on it its NOT a 'thin' client anymore, by definition.
<ps2chiper>
i dont think their are zillions, and no i dont see a mips release of ubuntu
<ps2chiper>
you guys are beating me down
<roh>
ps2chiper: if you want advice... dont use any soc where you do not have ALL source.
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: i thought you said it was an ARM device ?
<ps2chiper>
i do have all the source except the gpu
<ps2chiper>
ingenic is mips, right?
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: can you do what you need without using the non-open parts of the GPU ?
<larsc>
roh: don't use a soc where the source is upstream
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: you said you don't have the sources -> it's not usable
<roh>
ps2chiper: if you dont have gpu source , use another soc.
<ps2chiper>
how is a binary blob gpu driver not usuable. im just stuck with their kernel
<wpwrak>
larsc: "don't use a soc where the source is upstream" = don't use something that already works ? :)
<ps2chiper>
ingenic
<ps2chiper>
their new soc has the binary blob gpu now
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: i think you answered your question yourself ;-)
<larsc>
wpwrak: woops. don't use a soc where the source is _not_ upstream
<wpwrak>
larsc: aha ! yes, that i can agree with ;-)
<roh>
or it will cost you loads of time, customers, endless stress and your hair. ah.. and shitloads of money, and you are still not guranteed to solve the problem. simply spoken: do NOT use ANY binary components. they will bite you in the ass.
<ps2chiper>
but i just want to use 10.04
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: forget binary blobs. they'll come back to haunt you. they always do. every single time.
<ps2chiper>
everyone has blobs,
<roh>
wrong.
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: nyet :)
<ps2chiper>
who doesnt have a blob?
<roh>
thats a really old industry-lie from companies like nvidia
<ps2chiper>
oh god
<roh>
ps2chiper: i currently dont have on on the machine i am typing on.
<larsc>
there are different kinds of blobs. blob drivers and blob firmware
<ps2chiper>
who doesnt use a binary blob on a soc?
<ps2chiper>
well name one that has open userspace
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: ben nanonote, openmoko freerunner, any pc i've owned since 1992, ...
<ps2chiper>
name one that a person at walmart would buy?
<roh>
ps2chiper: my thinkpad.
<ps2chiper>
name one arm or mips soc that has a 3d gpu with an open userspace so its upstream compatible
<wpwrak>
does s3c2442+glamo count ? :)
<wpwrak>
ducks
<larsc>
no
<ps2chiper>
one that is not eol
<roh>
ps2chiper: the only blob is userspace and not a driver (flashplayer). thats it. no single driver has a blob which has executable code which runs on the cpu and or any cpu with access to the memory. (blobs you load into something like wifi cards do not count, if the loader is opensource and the driver is foss)
<ps2chiper>
im not hardcore foss, i like foss but i work with in my limitations
<roh>
ps2chiper: thats not the point at all.
<ps2chiper>
if i have to take it up the a$$ from an soc vendor, i try to do it with a smile
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: perhaps that's why you perceive a general absence of developers in that area - people with the necessary experience know that there's nothing but pain for them there :)
<roh>
ps2chiper: its simply that we ALL have only bad experiences with blobs. basically a blob in the driver framework is a warranty to fail as a business. you simply have no chance to support your customers.
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: the sane approach is to simply ignore any features that require a closed driver. then decide whether the platform still makes sense.
<ps2chiper>
i understand you guys, if i had a 50 million dollars, i would build my own open 3d gpu for foss to avoid these problems
<roh>
every blob containing driver is making sure that you will be fixed at that kernelversion/abi.
<ps2chiper>
i know, but there is nobody i know that doesnt have this issue currently
<larsc>
if you had 50 million dollers you could pay the company which does the blob to release a blob for your system
<larsc>
but i guess you don't have
<ps2chiper>
not legally
<ps2chiper>
because they wont release it as free software
<ps2chiper>
so it wouldnt help you unless you want to violate licenses
<larsc>
no, but they'll recompile it for your kernel
<ps2chiper>
but how would that help you?
<ps2chiper>
it needs to be foss to comply with copy left
<roh>
larsc: not even paying for it would fix the problem that you are stuck with whatever your vendor delivers.
<roh>
see the gllin desaster.
<ps2chiper>
thats my point
<roh>
the vendor was too incompetent to fix the problem.
<ps2chiper>
try to make do with what they give me
<roh>
these products are one-shot fails. there is no support. so you need specs/docs and do your support yoursellf.
<wpwrak>
larsc: it would still suck if you had to depend on them to regenerate their blob for you. e.g., that's roughly the situation with closed GPU drivers for PCs. would you as a kernel developer use one ?
<larsc>
btw. i think intel is one of the companies who is pushing for a blob free openvr driver
<ps2chiper>
lets give the gpu issue a break for a few mintues
<ps2chiper>
how about ralink based openwrt clock radios and voip phones
<roh>
besides.. what the hell does one really need a 3d gpu for? for a ui? no.
<ps2chiper>
they have open drivers
<ps2chiper>
gaming
<roh>
bwahahahah.
<roh>
buy a console.
<ps2chiper>
i own all 3 consoles
<ps2chiper>
i hate pc gaming, f windows
<ps2chiper>
everytime i uses my wifes computer, i feel like im watching movie trailers
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: don't worry too much about the license. the license just expresses sad practical experience. the unfortunate fact is that essential closed source elements in your system become the one point that will absorb most of your attention and ultimately resources.
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: that is, unless you take "fire and forget" approach
<wpwrak>
s/take/take the/
<ps2chiper>
i never cared about ip rights
<ps2chiper>
im in china
<wpwrak>
china is all about "fire and forget" ;-)
<ps2chiper>
i know your point of upstream compatibility. but i cant do that with amlogic, yet. but maybe we can just make 10.04 work easily enough
<ps2chiper>
and that would be great
<roh>
even if you ignore all the soc problems.. in the end the mpeg-mafia will eat you alive.
<wpwrak>
make product today. sell tomorrow. after tomorrow, the world may as well end ;-)
<ps2chiper>
tell that to on2 that got f'ed by china
<ps2chiper>
make product today. sell tomorrow. after tomorrow, the world may as well end ;-). good enough for me
<roh>
on2 was bought by google. they are in the dry.
<ps2chiper>
this was back 5 years ago
<ps2chiper>
the chinese government wanted their own dvd standard
<ps2chiper>
they hired on2. got the ip, and discarded them
<roh>
ps2chiper: ip rights are your major problem in that market. every technical problem is less worrying
<ps2chiper>
on2 sued them and lost
<roh>
who cares what happens inside china.
<ps2chiper>
on2 did
<ps2chiper>
doesnt wolfgang live in china?
<roh>
your problem is not inside china. but the eu and the us easily shreddering your hardware on the border.
<wpwrak>
well, around here, we care a bit more about sustainability. the basic idea is to gain control of the technology you use. that gives you a number of benefits, including the ability to influence how long things stay available, and to make adaptations from the original design.
<ps2chiper>
i dont care about them either
<ps2chiper>
i can sell to brazil
<wpwrak>
roh: FOB shanghai :)
<roh>
same problem: thats not a market where you can earn money to support the whole development.
<ps2chiper>
why not
<wpwrak>
brazil is big. but has very high import taxes and fees.
<ps2chiper>
if i sold 5000 pcs a month to brazil i would be happy
<roh>
no money in that markets. you sell basically for your bom prices.
<ps2chiper>
well i dont think so since we already sell to brazil
<roh>
ps2chiper: such markets usually only get targeted by companies who specialize in local things or ones that already squeezed all they can from the european and the us market.
<wpwrak>
roh: i think he meant pieces, not PCs :)
<ps2chiper>
the import tax from what i understand depends on the product being imported
<ps2chiper>
thats how shanzhai works in shenzhen
<wpwrak>
roh: not at all. but they have to adapt to the local market. usually by doing part of the production locally.
<ps2chiper>
they just build 5000 pcs of one product and thats it
<ps2chiper>
and they make plenty of profit for a small company
<wpwrak>
roh: not quite like in china, though
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: correct. different types of products have different taxes. but for electronics, brazil is about 100%.
<ps2chiper>
how many nanonote were sold to brazil by the way?
<ps2chiper>
I dont know about that, they sure buy a lot of satellite receivers
<wpwrak>
dunno. wolfgang may. it's still a bit too early in china for him to be up yet, though
<wpwrak>
oh yes, brazilians are crazy about tv ...
<ps2chiper>
hold on, i got a few people from brazill on my msn
<ps2chiper>
let me ask them
<larsc>
btw. import taxes on electronics are 60%
<ps2chiper>
hold on, im asking a importer now
<roh>
whatever... for me the whole point of foss electronics/open hw is not 'throwing more plastic garbage' into the world but have devices i can reuse, abuse, recycle, repair.
<roh>
stuff i own, not stuff i use, and then discard because the vendor is long gone an i cannot get the information i need to reuse or repair it.
<ps2chiper>
thats a pretty hard thing to say to a guy who makes his bread and butter selling things people dont need
<roh>
ps2chiper: maybe. but wouldnt you feel much better doing devices people have fun using and which do not break?
<wpwrak>
larsc: maybe .. i got all sorts of numbers. the 100% figure comes from USP. i got slightly lower figures from others, but these often didn't include additional administrative fees.
<ps2chiper>
not with my wife bashing my head from not making money
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: is she chinese ? :)
<ps2chiper>
she made me promise to buy her a house this year, and right now we have nothing to sell
<ps2chiper>
yes she is chinese
<wpwrak>
(-:C
<roh>
and because i am 'aware' of what i buy, usually atleast, i am ready to pay some more for good devices. hey.. after all i am only using high-end selections of devices anyhow already.
<ps2chiper>
im trying to find devs to help me out
<ps2chiper>
but its been a hard year on us
<ps2chiper>
you know i dont think a ubuntu thin client would sell well. i do think a xbmc dvb stb would sell very well against the dreambox. but finding devs that work on profit sharing is a pain in the ass
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: in the copyleft hw business, you need to have patience. we're still building the basics. acquiring skills, upping our BATNA. that's really important. you'd be surprised how quickly some "closed-only" companies come around when they realize that you don't need them.
<ps2chiper>
you know the psjailbreak
<ps2chiper>
i was the only guy that made and sold a copy left one
<roh>
the problem with stb is that the market is really ugly.
<ps2chiper>
i have 2500 atemga168 left over
<roh>
lots of people making money from breaking paytv etc.
<ps2chiper>
thats what we do
<wpwrak>
;-)
<ps2chiper>
that was what my openwrt project was about
<ps2chiper>
i used openwrt to support ssp
<ps2chiper>
sssp
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: i think you want wolfgang should have a beer once. you do things the dirty way. he likes that ;)
<ps2chiper>
for the satellite receivers, so they can connect them to the internet
<ps2chiper>
i talked to him a few years ago
<roh>
heh... well.. from my time inside a company doing stbs i can tell that its really no fun selling such stuff in the end. always comes back to you.
<ps2chiper>
he hasnt been on skype in ages
<ps2chiper>
not in china
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: people who matter don't social network, skype, and so on :)
<ps2chiper>
the government shields us from foreigners
<ps2chiper>
i take that as an insult
<roh>
he usually is in here at asian daytime
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: no, take it as an encouragement :)
<roh>
maybe 4-6 hours from now *g*
<ps2chiper>
no, how can you say to to someone whos friends all use gtalk and skype
<ps2chiper>
that is pretty insulting
<ps2chiper>
i talk to eric miao from canonical over gtalk
<ps2chiper>
are you saying he doesnt matter
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: maybe he's just weak :)
<ps2chiper>
i think you should keep those opinions on chat clients to your self
<roh>
.oO(using google tools to talk about stuff google also does... hrhr)
<roh>
see google-tv
<ps2chiper>
ugghy dont get me started on google tv and boxee
<roh>
just do not 'trust' google. ever.
<ps2chiper>
i dont, but we all use it
<ps2chiper>
its like sugar
<ps2chiper>
we know its bad for us, but we cant help it
<ps2chiper>
hey did you guys know mandrian is the most widely spoken language in the world?
<roh>
.s
<roh>
irgh
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: i'm not surprised :) do you speak it ? your english writing sounds as if you were a native english speaker, that's why i ask
<ps2chiper>
it should be since i am american. but my mandrian is crap. i have a language block in my brain. but i exceed at political science.
<roh>
:)
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: heh :)
<larsc>
ps2chiper: what brought you to china?
<roh>
may i ask whats your position inside that company?
<ps2chiper>
i used to work in a japanese headlight factory, got tired of it. i wanted a really long vacation off my saving so i thought china was cheap enough. so i moved here.
<ps2chiper>
right now my position is dog shit since i didnt make any money yet.
<ps2chiper>
i was supposed to get boxee going in may, but they turned out to be liars about being open
<ps2chiper>
which actually we did get boxee working on our hardware, but found all the stuff they omitted
<roh>
hm. dunno boxee.. looks like a lock-in system to me
<ps2chiper>
when we pressed them on it. they said in reality they had no intention of working with us, unless we could prove we could sell 300k a year of boxee
<ps2chiper>
boxee is based on xbmc
<roh>
ah. so its propably atleast a partial gpl-violation in the end?
<ps2chiper>
oh yeah
<roh>
good to know ;)
<ps2chiper>
they actually had some gpl3 software in it the nand read only part
<roh>
do they sell in germany?
<ps2chiper>
yes they do
<ps2chiper>
they have already been reported to gpl violations
<ps2chiper>
you know who are big losers. the meego people
<roh>
its toast (meego)
<ps2chiper>
i was on there irc channel and i told them if they wanted anyone to build hardware for them. i would try.
<roh>
hm. seems like boxee isnt pushed in .de due to netflix etc not being available here
<ps2chiper>
they gave me a list of all the hacked meego devices and told me i sold pay for there service since i was not needed
<ps2chiper>
not pushed but sold
<ps2chiper>
i told them the reason why meego flopped was because the devs didnt make a effort to push hardware on the market
<ps2chiper>
then they banned me
<ps2chiper>
I wish i could get this guy to work for our factory, stephan@openelec.tv
<ps2chiper>
he has made a lot of progress with xbmc
<roh>
ps2chiper: sure boxee was reported to gpl-violations? cannot find the ticket
<ps2chiper>
well im friends with luke from gpl violations, and he knows about it. also the openboxee guy made a huge fuss on it
<roh>
i dont know any luke? maybe it was the fsf in the us or europe?
<ps2chiper>
lklc
<roh>
ps2chiper: anyhow.. if you got any more details there.. can you please mail it to mailto:license-violation@gpl-violations.org and add any details you have (name parts missing etc)