<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/Makefile: increased engraving depth from 0.2 mm to 0.5 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/fd6b95d
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/font.fpd: increased banana jack hole from 6 mm to 8 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1d4b89e
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: new gnuplot tag #%id= with generator-assigned identifier (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a42a18f
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/shape.c: removed global "path" variable (where did that madness come from ?) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a67d0b4
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: mech/doit: store cameo job in temporary file, for easier debugging (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/96cd3dd
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: mech/front.fpd: increased banana jack hole diameter from 8.0 mm to 8.1 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d0309ad
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: make tool_comp_paths output paths in the order processed (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/639b0fa
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/Makefile: fixed error handling of pipes; target "pos" for positioning (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/3dc74fc
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: think we can talk jon out of HTML5 ? :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it eerily reminds me of sean's plan to bring Processing to the FreeRunner ...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: no I think that's just a misunderstanding, so it's good we talk about
<wpwrak>
heh, here he is :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, tell me then
<Jay7>
we need service that will process html5 on Qi HW cloud and return image back to NN user :)
<wolfspraul>
nobody thinks the NanoNote will become an iphone or android killing browsing machine
<Jay7>
via wpan, sure :)
<wpwrak>
Jay7: and let's not forget the Qi++ button :-)
<wolfspraul>
well, except some people that don't see the irony of their constant comparisons to great Android phones :-)
<wolfspraul>
no wait
<wolfspraul>
it's a different horizon
<wolfspraul>
Jon thinks long-term
<Jay7>
in long-term we need Ya NN
<wolfspraul>
he sees html5+css+js as the 'free app store'
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think he wants to lower the bar for developers
<wolfspraul>
wait
<Jay7>
with 1Gb of RAM and 1GHz CPU :)
<Jay7>
hides
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: and maybe snatch up some who currently do things on iPhone, Android, etc.
<larsc>
whats really missing to become a iphone killer is vendor lockin.
<wolfspraul>
so one is short-term and I 100% agree with Freemor's post on the list
<Jay7>
larsc: gsm part? :)
<wpwrak>
larsc: next item for sourcing research: shackles :)
<wolfspraul>
and one is long-term thinking, and there really is no alternative to html5 I think
<wolfspraul>
it's just the best (if it works :-))
<larsc>
Jay7: the whole thing. and non-replacable batteries
<Jay7>
gsm and wifi - that is needed for end users...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: do you think "native" applications will simply die in the long run ?
<Jay7>
well, s/gsm/3G/
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
it's a big world
<wolfspraul>
Jon calls it the 'haircut kids'
<wolfspraul>
how do we get the haircut kids to a copyleft device, any copyleft device, ever
<Jay7>
but we may just play on tablet/readers market
<wolfspraul>
with an html5/css/js solution
<Jay7>
w/o phone/wifi
<Jay7>
with wpan
<wolfspraul>
the haircut kids won't buy the nanonote today or tomorrow
<wolfspraul>
and the 'real' hackers will always prefer something natively written in C, right?
<wolfspraul>
(I would :-))
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: sure :)
<Jay7>
btw
<wolfspraul>
but it's a big world, and we cannot hide in hacker happiness, we have to be open minded to the real world as well
<wpwrak>
scary ... UPS just cpmplained about a brown-out. seems that everything is still up, though. well, except my fluke rebooted. it's always the quickest.
<wolfspraul>
that's where html5/css/js comes in, whenever that is and on whatever device
<Jay7>
platform for quick development rich Qt-based apps to run via network
<wolfspraul>
Qt is strong and will remain
<wolfspraul>
but I personally wouldn't touch it either
<Jay7>
I've tested it via gprs channel and it works fine
<wolfspraul>
I honestly think ncurses will see a second (third, fourth, whatever) life
<wpwrak>
but will HTML%+etc. be enough for the "haircut kids" ? or will they basically expect the full feature set of an igadget ?
<wolfspraul>
I think we will see scripted gui apps
<wolfspraul>
and so on
<wolfspraul>
but what about html5?
<wolfspraul>
if there is any chance for a 'free app store', ever, then it's going to be via html5 (including offline), css/js
<Jay7>
we have no possibility to run html5+js+blablabla on NN
<Jay7>
32Mb is not enough
<wpwrak>
i'm not against html5, btw. i see the issue more with putting resources into making what it currently a very heavy environment somehow work on weak hardware
<wpwrak>
because it may simply not provide the user experience that's expected, even if it's fast enough. e.g., because additional services that are expected to be part of the package are missing
<mth>
you can use zram swap to get more memory, but at the cost of CPU cycles
<wpwrak>
and by the time you add those extra services, your base platform may have become powerful enough to also run the regular implementation of all this stuff
<Jay7>
better to forget about web2.0 UI apps on Ben NN
<wpwrak>
so your version optimized for weak hardware would basically be useless
<Jay7>
invest time and money into Ya :)
<wpwrak>
Jay7: ya probably still wouldn't cut it. but yes, that's what i'd rather do, too :)
<Jay7>
wpwrak: if we want to run web2.0 apps on Ya we should adapt HW
<Jay7>
thats only easy way
<Jay7>
and it's cheaper imho
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (free app store) dunno. we already have "free app stores". opkg ... and poof, there it is. it all works already. maybe needs a friendlier frontend, but the infrastructure has been around for a good while and works quite well.
<Jay7>
(but is a bit wrong from my point)
<wolfspraul>
Jon (and I) don't doubt at all that opkg/rpm/deb etc. will go away or be replaced
<wolfspraul>
but the dns is also not to forget, the 'free web'
<wolfspraul>
and with html5 you basically just need to visit a site, then the app will be 'installed'
<wolfspraul>
oops typoe
<wolfspraul>
I meant "don't doubt at all that opkg/rpm/deb/etc. will stay"
<wolfspraul>
too many negations
<wolfspraul>
so of course they stay
<wolfspraul>
and grow
<wolfspraul>
but that's one particular way of doing things
<wolfspraul>
signed sources, community review, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
all fine
<wolfspraul>
but you think every little hotel chain will get their 'app' into Debian
<wolfspraul>
they wouldn't even be welcome, at all
<wpwrak>
naw, they don't have to. you don't need to go via the distribution.
<wpwrak>
and are you saying that, if the nanonote supports html5+etc., you expect to be able to run "web apps" that aren't written specifically for the nanonote ?
<wolfspraul>
I already explained short-term and long-term
<wolfspraul>
this is more Jon thinking big
<wolfspraul>
5 years
<wolfspraul>
many devices
<wolfspraul>
10 years
<wolfspraul>
nowadays he runs about talking about "2030"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
that's 19 years from now
<wolfspraul>
that different horizon explains most of the misunderstanding
<wpwrak>
hmm, but why does he care about nanonote+html5 now ?
<wpwrak>
if it's a consideration of what we should plan to start doing in a decade, fine. html5, css, js, probably won't be around then anymore, but something similar will be.
<wolfspraul>
oh, html5 for sure will be around in 10 years
<wolfspraul>
isn't it already 5 or more in the making? :-)
<wolfspraul>
those things become very big and inert
<wolfspraul>
but sure, if Apple goes all the way to the moon, maybe no more open web at all :-)
<wolfspraul>
Safari is already named after the 'jungle'
<wolfspraul>
they plant the seeds early
<wolfspraul>
but no I think html5/css/js will stay and will be the free app store
<wolfspraul>
or rather, one part of it
<wolfspraul>
next to the opkg/rpm/deb/etc. system layers
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't be surprised of js would yield to another language. they come and go at about decade intervals. C++, java, maybe now JS, ...
<wpwrak>
dunno about CSS. also, even if the future HTML5 will still be called "HTML5", it will have grown extensions or have gotten loaded with add-ons, so it'll be different from the thing today. e.g., consider that Flash has become pretty much the lingua franca for quite a lot of web developers
<wolfspraul>
I think the inertia of html and anything attached to it is huge and growing
<wolfspraul>
unless the open web dies complete and goes the way of gopher, whatever
<wolfspraul>
which I doubt
<wpwrak>
i don't think the web as such will die. but the importance of things will shift. see many companies pushing apps to access their content instead of or in addition to the regular web
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: ok did we clarify some of Jon's html5 excitement now?
<wolfspraul>
I do share his excitement, but so far the negative reactions all seem like misunderstandings to me
<wolfspraul>
in no way do I believe that html5/css/js will become an important way to get apps to the Ben NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
but it may still be a good place for some tinkering, some people to start going in that direction, why not. the resource constraints are a plus in my book.
<wolfspraul>
and actually this has already been happening for a while, that's why we have 5+ browsers on the Ben :-)
<ps2chiper>
Who manufactured the nanonote?
<wolfspraul>
me and friends
<ps2chiper>
what factory?
<wolfspraul>
actually not very precise, you could also say GGV and Sunty
<wolfspraul>
ps2chiper: a small factory in shenzhen
<ps2chiper>
they have plenty of those
<wolfspraul>
indeed
<wolfspraul>
thousands
<wolfspraul>
but it's still hard work and you need solid workers etc.
<ps2chiper>
Did you get your hands dirty?
<wolfspraul>
the workers increasingly discover their rights, which is good
<wolfspraul>
'dirty' may be an overestatement
<wolfspraul>
when you find me in the copper mine to mine the copper for an upcoming device, I'll be there
<ps2chiper>
that would be chile
<wolfspraul>
I actually had some plans to work for a mine in Australia at some point
<wolfspraul>
he :-)
<wolfspraul>
I wanted to see where/how that stuff comes from
<wolfspraul>
but well, I didn't put my money where my mouth is on that one yet
<wolfspraul>
in terms of Sunty, I did a little work
<wolfspraul>
1-2 weeks combined maybe
<wolfspraul>
some flashing, testing
<ps2chiper>
how come you dont open your own industrial design company?
<wolfspraul>
I flashed all 2k nanos :-)
<ps2chiper>
i did that on about 5k routers
<wolfspraul>
but I cheated, somewhere after a few hundred in the second run the girls who saw me unable to optimize the process further gave me a break and finished in 1/10th of the time I would have taken for the rest
<wolfspraul>
the process optimization they are able to do is amazing
<wolfspraul>
hats off
<ps2chiper>
i see, i can teach you the factory process next time you come to shenzhen
<ps2chiper>
my background is manufacturing
<wolfspraul>
the key is to quickly see the optimization possibility, since especially on assembly/testing, the process changes often
<wolfspraul>
and even though I think I am not stupid, the girls there could easily give me a run for my money
<wolfspraul>
I just don't see it!
<ps2chiper>
you must be a slow poke
<ps2chiper>
i give the chinese a run for there money with my process
<wolfspraul>
I doubt it but you are welcome to help on the next run. for free of course, like we all work for free :-)
<wolfspraul>
or I'm slow, sure. I think they are good though, so it was a good work on the NanoNote.
<ps2chiper>
i worked in the chinese factory before. back in the japanese factory we had to stand on our feet for 12 hours a day
<ps2chiper>
you can pay me the chinese salary
<wolfspraul>
fair enough
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (html5 clarification) okay, thanks ! the sense of urgency that spoke from jon's mail was indeed misleading. i have no problem with considering this as a technology to keep an eye on for the next years :)
<ps2chiper>
you got to build a muscle memory.
<ps2chiper>
after enough time the process becomes natural and you can work without thinking
<wolfspraul>
yes but you need to keep an eye on how to optimize the process
<ps2chiper>
nah
<ps2chiper>
the goal is to keep it going for months
<wolfspraul>
and with many steps and workers that may be not so easy
<wolfspraul>
ok I am only doing 1k runs
<ps2chiper>
i dont think your quantities are large enough
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
1k is just a blip on the radar
<ps2chiper>
yeah, back at the headlight factory, we would make average 900 lamps in 12 hours on a 5 man line
<wolfspraul>
I don't know much about the process and difficulties of large runs, hundreds of k over months
<wolfspraul>
or even millions
<ps2chiper>
well chinese dont think
<ps2chiper>
they do
<ps2chiper>
so even if their process is flawed, they dont care
<wolfspraul>
yeah well, it's difficult
<wolfspraul>
correct they don't care
<wolfspraul>
that's their strength
<wolfspraul>
no useless discussions :-)
<ps2chiper>
thats one advantage. bad for innovation
<wolfspraul>
sure of course
<wolfspraul>
but culturally you have to play to your strengths
<wolfspraul>
I think we all do that, or should do taht
<ps2chiper>
can you give me some commercially viable products?
<wolfspraul>
here's food for thought I heard once and liked: chinese are too creative to be productive
<ps2chiper>
well i can explain that
<wolfspraul>
commercially viable?
<ps2chiper>
they are good at incremental fixes
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<ps2chiper>
one topic at a time
<wolfspraul>
commercially viable is something that has a lot of demand at a high price point :-)
<wolfspraul>
no I have no silver bullet
<ps2chiper>
back to chinese
<ps2chiper>
thats why they never had a industrial revolution.
<wolfspraul>
if you like I sell you a Milkymist One for 3500 RMB, that makes it a bit more commercially viable for me ;-)
<ps2chiper>
they were so good at quick fixes they never needed to rethink the way they do things
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wolfspraul>
too creative to be productive
<wolfspraul>
always invent things on the spot, but never get to the bottom of the problem
<wolfspraul>
but they are too damned good at what they do to care :-) I don't think China or Chinese businesses need an economics lesson
<ps2chiper>
so our factory does stb's we want to have a xbmc with dvb tuner support
<wolfspraul>
definitely not from a crazy money loosing 'entrepreneur' like me
<ps2chiper>
its hard to find good programmers in shenzhne
<wolfspraul>
who would be surprised
<wolfspraul>
it's hard to find a good assembly factory in San Francisco
<ps2chiper>
have you been drinking tonight, are you always this joyous?
<wolfspraul>
no beer yet!
<wolfspraul>
don't look for programmers there, that simple
<ps2chiper>
well if you come up with some good ideas for products, ill help you out.
<ps2chiper>
easier said then done
<wolfspraul>
the few good ones will work for big foreign brands and make real money, and that's what they should do
<wolfspraul>
and then the good foreign companies will send them to the US for a master degree, mba, etc.
<ps2chiper>
ironically the chinese programmers are starting to make as much as their foreign counterparts
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
why is that ironic?
<ps2chiper>
because the foreign companies come to china to pay people less money
<wolfspraul>
that's a minority now
<wolfspraul>
those guys have left for Vietnam, Cambodia, Phillipines, etc.
<ps2chiper>
and now with the economic crisis, its leveled out for programmers
<Jay7>
hire russian programmers
<wolfspraul>
definitely
<Jay7>
they are the best of ;)
<Jay7>
and cheap enough :)
<ps2chiper>
i got a friend from latvia
<wolfspraul>
seriously, that's a good idea
<wolfspraul>
there you go, close :-)
<ps2chiper>
he is a phd student and only makes 2200 usd a month
<ps2chiper>
he has been helping me port the FON 2.0n build to my router
<Jay7>
have about 600-1000 usd/m
<ps2chiper>
the shitty part is i cant afford 2500 to hire him full time for my self
<wolfspraul>
ps2chiper: hire Jay7
<ps2chiper>
would he like to come work in shenzhen
<ps2chiper>
i know another russian guy that does business here
<Jay7>
but I'm crazy enterpeneur too :)
<Jay7>
some mix of admin/programmer/it-consultant/etc
<ps2chiper>
Do you do profit sharing projects?
<Jay7>
I'm mostly using opensource software to organize soho-business of my customers
<ps2chiper>
can you do embedded stuff
<Jay7>
xenserver/openfiler/vtigercrm/etc
<Jay7>
yeah, I'm one from OpenEmbedded side
<ps2chiper>
oh yeah
<wolfspraul>
ps2chiper: are you selling products in China?
<Jay7>
have 3 Sharp Zaurus, EfikaMX smarttop and Ben NN :)
<ps2chiper>
im not selling jack right now, i need to.
<Jay7>
kexecboot.org is my project too
<Jay7>
well, thesing was started it but I'm not leading development
<Jay7>
*now
<kristianpaul>
as Jon pointed the HTML5 sounded to me like something to NOW, i guess thats when the confussion began
<ps2chiper>
Do you do openwrt work?
<Jay7>
ps2chiper: no, I've not using OW now
<kristianpaul>
of course wolfgang pointed it like a new path, but that make sense if you're aware of projects like milkymist perhaps
<ps2chiper>
i had a few ideas for it, Jay7
<Jay7>
ps2chiper: kyak is russian OW developer ;)
<ps2chiper>
when does he get online?
<Jay7>
he will say when will be around imho
<Jay7>
so you may describe your ideas here and he will look later :)
<ps2chiper>
well for 1 pcb to work for clock radio and voip phone
<kristianpaul>
#colibri
<ps2chiper>
how do you guys feel about samsung exynos?
<kristianpaul>
oops
<wolfspraul>
ps2chiper: what is that?
<ps2chiper>
samsungs dual core a9 soc
<ps2chiper>
pretty powerful
<ps2chiper>
i may get access to that one
<ps2chiper>
the only issue is it cost 24 usd each
<wolfspraul>
oh some of their new soc
<wolfspraul>
I'm past Samsung on SoCs
<ps2chiper>
why is that?
<wolfspraul>
but I would say the same about TI and many others
<ps2chiper>
samsung has open userspace
<wolfspraul>
well I don't know. I think those chips are flawed. it's a race.
<ps2chiper>
also linaro supports ubuntu for it
<wolfspraul>
they are hastily designed, hastily produced, hastily stuffed into products
<ps2chiper>
seems like a new soc every month
<wolfspraul>
you ask for my opinion, now I give you my opinion, unfiltered
<wolfspraul>
opinions come a dime a dozen
<larsc>
ARM SoCs are kind of like mushrooms
<ps2chiper>
i didnt say you were wrong
<wolfspraul>
so I think those are products for the top-50 consumer electronics brands in the world, something like that
<ps2chiper>
its hard to avoid mips
<ps2chiper>
arm
<wolfspraul>
you have to have a big engineering team to pull it off, everything has to be big
<wolfspraul>
and before long, the chip is gone
<wolfspraul>
nothing to see there, imho
<ps2chiper>
do you have a ipad or iphone?
<wolfspraul>
no
<ps2chiper>
what kind of phone do you have
<wolfspraul>
too boring and predictable
<wolfspraul>
hardly any one, I bought the cheapest I could find in Shenzhen once, 118 RMB
<ps2chiper>
i have a iphone clone i got for free
<ps2chiper>
118 rmb is pretty cheap. dont drop it
<wolfspraul>
I bought 15 of them
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
actually I had so many I threw some away, bad me
<wolfspraul>
should have kept some since the one I have now has pretty bad signal strength
<ps2chiper>
i want one
<ps2chiper>
there is a hotel on my street, 120 rmb a day
<ps2chiper>
i can pick you up from the airport and drop you off
<larsc>
you scared him away
<ps2chiper>
that or he went out for his beer.
<ps2chiper>
wolfspraul, do you like chinese beer
<larsc>
he left the channel
<roh>
ps2chiper: can you check out if you get freescale chips for a good price?
<ps2chiper>
no, i dont have a connection to a freescale distributor. i can get amlogic for a good price.
<roh>
ps2chiper: amlogic has no documentation public. freescale doesnt need registragion at all. they just have the pdf on the web.
<ps2chiper>
i got them, i can give them to you if you want
<roh>
no. i want the for EVERYONE.
<ps2chiper>
you can give them to everyone
<wpwrak>
roh: how un-chinese of you ;-)
<roh>
i dont buy chips without documentation for everyone
<ps2chiper>
then you should pay full price for freescale to show your support6
<roh>
sorry.. dont get me wrong. please send them, but redistribution is difficult for everbody outside of china
<roh>
ps2chiper: not an issue. their stuff isnt that expensive from my pov.
<ps2chiper>
how much are you willing to pay for imx535?
<roh>
see it that way.. if you buy a soc for 3$ and sell the device... when it arrives in europe its costs about 80$ minimum. so i dont care if the cpu costs 3$ or 5$, or even 10$, since the uppriceing happens elsewhere (and isnt linear)
<ps2chiper>
thats not true
<ps2chiper>
normally the way it works is you take the factory cost, double it and thats what you pay
<roh>
ps2chiper: the imx535 is expensive (if available at distris at all) .. around 24$
<roh>
ps2chiper: well. double is not reality for sales in europe or the us.
<ps2chiper>
well the rumor is that the im535 is 18 usd in china
<ps2chiper>
I guess you guys pay triple in that case
<roh>
what does a imx28 cost you?
<ps2chiper>
is imx28 still in production?
<ps2chiper>
also give me the full part purchasing number from the datasheet. it makes it easier for me to look them up.
<roh>
well. doesnt really matter anyways. would need to look that up also
<roh>
there are about 8 versions with different packages/features
<roh>
anyhow. you save money on development because the linux port is already done and of high quality
<ps2chiper>
well that is a difference of opinion, it depends on how many units you produce and what price you sell them for. then contrast it against the cost of software development
<ps2chiper>
if your selling 10k of something. and the price difference is 5 dollars. it makes sense to try and use a cheaper soc if you can improve the bsp.
<ps2chiper>
thats something they are doing for ingenic
<roh>
ps2chiper: another factor is 'size' ..amlogic seems 'tiny' and i wouldnt know if they are still there in 5 years.
<ps2chiper>
jeez, you know how fast soc's get eol'ed
<roh>
to be fair.. i havent heard about them before you mentioned it. also i dont have a device with any of their soc (and i know whats inside my hw)
<ps2chiper>
it seems like the normal life span of a soc is 2-3 years if that
<ps2chiper>
where are you from roh?
<roh>
germany.
<ps2chiper>
germany is one of the hardest countries in the world to sell electronics
<ps2chiper>
my boss works for katheirn receivers if you know of them.
<roh>
maybe. but its reality that i still see products with really old soc coming in new. like old samsung 2442 etc.
<roh>
looong eoled.. doesnt matter. still there.
<roh>
i know kathrein. yes. i would never sell a stb from them (sw sucks)
<roh>
also totally overpriced
<roh>
they have great cables and antennas (what the company builds themselves for decades) .. but they go no clue about digital stuff.
<ps2chiper>
try not to insult my boss, please
<roh>
i am not trying to. just stating my experiences as somebody who installed such equipment for customers for years.
<ps2chiper>
you can direct your complaints to katheirn
<roh>
the stb stuff from them looks like 'cheap oem' to me. dunno it thats true.
<roh>
lots of companies do that. (oem lots of stuff, only build the ones you know yourself) .. but that makes sw not better and customers not more happy. companies should sell what they REALLY know how to do.
<ps2chiper>
i dont work for katherin
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: roh likes to rant every once in a while. he usually cools down after an hour or so ;-)
<ps2chiper>
they build their own stuff in china
<roh>
means: quality is everything.
<roh>
ps2chiper: i am just trying to explain my sight on that market. most devices with a german brand label are oem. only a very few are developed locally (and even less built).
<ps2chiper>
I can introduce you to the chinese guy that does the software on them. i met him face to face
<roh>
ps2chiper: not neccessary. i am luckily (for me) out of that market and job.. selling ce electronic is not fun with such a market (no money to earn by selling and mostly devices with bad bugs which annoy customers which then annoy me ;)
<lekernel>
ps2chiper, what's inside the amlogic chips? CPU core licensed from ARM, SDRAM controller (also licensed I guess), PowerVR, ?
<rjeffries>
supporting html5/css/javascript as a new app framework to run on copyleft hardware is not crazy, except it requires a lot more hardware resource than Ben Nanonote provides.
<roh>
rjeffries: ignore the sw part (html5 etc.) focus on hw facts
<ps2chiper>
im back
<rjeffries>
In order to be sucessful in copyleft world would need to be in addition to classic linux tools, not a replacement
<ps2chiper>
i will upload the QRM Quick Reference manual to megashares for everyone
<rjeffries>
hi roh the hardware facts are pretty obvious to moi. ;)
<roh>
rjeffries: sorry.. just rambling.. hw vendors often try to 'make more wind' or 'confuse' the view of customers by mixing sw stuff in hw factsheets.. which makes no sense and has no value besides 'more things in the table' ;)
<roh>
ps2chiper: thanks.. to you also have a datasheet with register level details?
<rjeffries>
ps2chiper are you working with Amlogic?
<ps2chiper>
not yet, i have to put in a request
<ps2chiper>
yes our company has a NDA with amlogic in place that lets us get the inside stuff. very slowley
<rjeffries>
if they share details, at first glance this SOC looks pretty powerful. on eof many however
<rjeffries>
ps2chiper I assume the SOC comes from China?
<ps2chiper>
well also amlogic has a usa office
<roh>
well.. its a soc which will require license payments for mpeg etc.
<ps2chiper>
but yes it comes from china
<roh>
of you will have shredderware on the tollboth
<rjeffries>
do amlogic have any design-ins yet for this soc
<ps2chiper>
i dont care about licenses if i do that well, i will be proud to get sued
<ps2chiper>
thats why we are using them. they support dvb pretty well
<roh>
ps2chiper: not you, but the distributor will (usually)
<ps2chiper>
except they expect us to use android as the dvb interface
<rjeffries>
ps2chiper remind us what is dvb
<ps2chiper>
most mp3 players sold dont have license rights
<roh>
ps2chiper: thats why there are many devices which do never make it to eu and us, since nobody takes the risk/work of license management and importing
<ps2chiper>
how many of those get sued
<roh>
android has a dvb-interface?
<rjeffries>
I googled but got nothiung useful
<ps2chiper>
amlogic created it
<roh>
hrhr
<ps2chiper>
its supposed to be released this month
<ps2chiper>
anyways i just want xbmc with tuner support
<ps2chiper>
also ubuntu thin client
<ps2chiper>
stuff like that
<roh>
i see. google will not like that. they want their googletv pushed (i guess thats also android-esque) .. do you have any more insight there?
<ps2chiper>
i do, google tv will never be opened in my opinion
<roh>
larsc: nobody. ifa is completely worthless and waste of time. none of the guys buying expensive stuff en mass goes there anymore
<roh>
in general fairs are just big money waste machines nowadays.. see cebit
<lekernel>
ah yeah, ARM Mali
<lekernel>
I saw a demo of it at an ARM technical conference in Paris, in 2007
<lekernel>
I was just starting Milkymist
<roh>
ack. mali is also closed afaik, but its from arm and will be reversed by somebody (not me) at some time.
<roh>
will take till the first mali equpped chips are eol i guess ;)
<lekernel>
the thing was running on a very expensive FPGA board and choking at a 7fps in 320x240 resolution
<lekernel>
rendering a very simple scene
<lekernel>
seeing it, I had a moment of hesitation about the technical feasibility of mm soc :-)
<roh>
lekernel: well.. they have all the gl overhead
<lekernel>
but it seems their FPGA implementation simply sucked
<roh>
and thats 4 years ago
<lekernel>
the s6 FPGA on the M1 is by far slower and smaller than what was on ARM's board
<rjeffries>
lekernel which version/model of Spartan 6 do you use im MM?
<larsc>
i've heard they can't really compete with powervr
<roh>
so who knows. afaik its en par with the pvr stuff and only exists because companies building soc asked arm if there was anything besides pvr they could buy/licence
<wpwrak>
roh: the milkymist gpu ! :)
<roh>
bbl.. need to fetch food.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you ~will~ place a blue led behind the qi logo on your front panel, won't you?
<rjeffries>
lekernel did you see my question above?
<wpwrak>
(blue led) err, probably not. i don't have anything there on which i could properly mount it.
<lekernel>
6slx45-2fgg484
<wpwrak>
not that the thought hadn't crossed my mind yet ... :)
<lekernel>
rjeffries, why?
<rjeffries>
i am looking at this fpga dev board we use
<rjeffries>
wpwrak so you need a tiny little l bracket. would look so cool.
<rjeffries>
you need to get a 3d printer asap. ;)
<rjeffries>
smiles
<wpwrak>
yeah, that could be fun :)
<wpwrak>
naw, a proper solution would be to have another PCB that goes behind the front panel. or maybe even switch to a "tablet" form factor and have one PCB for connectors and circuit, or have a stack of PCBs
<wpwrak>
but that's all complicated. what i have now is nice and simple :)
<rjeffries>
I finally saw a cupcake at the santa barbara hacerspace a few weeks ago. pretty cool.
<lekernel>
did you give them milkymist and qi hardware advertising material?
<rjeffries>
lekernel this dev board was purpose built but yes they know of MM
<rjeffries>
lekernel I misunderstood. I had pitched Nanonote pretty hard to that group about a year ago. zero interest
<rjeffries>
at some point I'll talkw with them re MM
<ps2chiper>
can i get a kernel guy to do me a favor. stephan from the openelec thinks the amlogic kernel includes the mali userspace portion