<nicksydney>
larsc: that's why i asked i have no idea if it can be that small
<larsc>
the size of the chip is often larger than the die because of all the IO signals, in this case you don't have that many IO signals
<nicksydney>
in my mind thought even if is is small can it be that very small because looking at the packaging of that dongle it is very small
<nicksydney>
ahhh..so you mean that it is possible that this kind of dongle does not have that many pins and also it does not have the normal MCU packaging that are normally sold through digikey and the like ?
<larsc>
yes
<nicksydney>
now that makes perfect sense
<nicksydney>
so this means most products out there in the market that are small packages normally have this kind of setup inside
<larsc>
a specialized mcu instead of a general purpose mcu
<nicksydney>
is that why when you crack open one of this kind of consumer product..there is a black blob ?
<nicksydney>
so how do i go about producting product with this kind of 'cheaper' version of the MCU ? we need to request from the vendor like Freescale, Atmel, etc tha?
<larsc>
but I don't think you need to go to the vendor
<nicksydney>
was these bonding pictures taken with a high powered microscope ? i can imagine te wire must be damn tiny !
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<larsc>
the die is a bit bigger than a thumb, so it not that small
<larsc>
probably a good camera
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<larsc>
but that's a full SoC. Now imagine something specialized like your usb to bluetooth adapter
<larsc>
the die will be tiny
<nicksydney>
interesting
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<nicksydney>
hmmm...thought people don't sleep here :)
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<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: (android) hmm, seems fairly complicated. note sure you'd want to keep use counts, too. the security implications would need examining.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: fair enought...when you say complicated in terms of the hw design or the fw ?
<wpwrak_>
it's all in fw, isn't it ?
<wpwrak_>
microSD use in any case should be "very little" / "vastly excessive abundance of space"
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: let's consider a use case...user insert sdcard and anelok reads all info in memory...user remove sdcard but the info still in memory...using other device (android) it can get certain info about the device using bluetooth
<wpwrak_>
if you remove the memcard, anelok will not work. it doesn't have large caches of this sort.
<wpwrak_>
in fact, it should be "data-less" by design. that way, you can "wipe" it by removing the card.
<nicksydney>
hmm...interesting
<nicksydney>
so if there is no sdcard then anelok assume it will not do anything
<nicksydney>
it will blink or something to indicate that it is in "wipe" mode
<wpwrak_>
it can display a complaint :)
<nicksydney>
ok we use the OLED :)
<nicksydney>
and once sdcard is detected it will be in a "running" mode
<wpwrak_>
and it can still provide some communication functionality. it will still have access to the keys stored in the "secure" area (the mcu) but the bulk of the information is on the card
<wpwrak_>
yes, then it has information about accounts and maybe also other things like more fonts and such
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<nicksydney>
ok
<nicksydney>
what other things from the android list that you think can be used ? or none ? :)
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<wpwrak_>
not sure about the distance thing. chances are it'll just produce lots of false alarms, and mainly when you leave the droid behind, not when someone makes off with the anelok
<wpwrak_>
backup ... dunno what protocols are there. if there's some "storage over bt", that could be used
<nicksydney>
lots of false alarms ? how this ?
<wpwrak_>
because you may not pay a lot of attention to having your droid close
<wpwrak_>
e.g., in an office or at home
<wpwrak_>
"secure" places
<nicksydney>
true...but the user will have the option in the droid app to ignore or disable this kind of warning
<nicksydney>
the rationale is to take anelok as your 'password bodyguard'
<nicksydney>
so user treat it as part of their day to day device
<nicksydney>
if they do this that means they will not forget to bring it out with them same as their droid or credit card
<nicksydney>
AND since anelok works like a 'keyboard' it can be used also in your droid device
<wpwrak_>
as a BTLE keyboard, some day (BTLE is currently too insecure for this. but time if working in our favour ;-)
<wpwrak_>
#s/ if / is /
<wpwrak_>
and yes, i envision that people will keep anelok close. in fact, closer than their droid. so the droid watching over anelok seems a little silly :)
<nicksydney>
or we can utilise whistling to detect if anelok is withing our distance ?
<nicksydney>
main thing is to track it
<nicksydney>
as we can't install GPS :)
<nicksydney>
it's complementary i suppose
<wpwrak_>
no new sensors :) there's already not a lot of space
<nicksydney>
exactly .. so we can use the BT to do some the distance checking
<nicksydney>
better be able to know if it is close by rather than not knowing where it is
<nicksydney>
use case "last night got drunk and got someone at home in bed and the next morning you forgot where you keep your anelok"
<nicksydney>
we can also turn off the distance checking with extra menu in fw to select/deselect this kind of option
<wpwrak_>
well, you can keep track of where and when you last saw it. that would apply to any BTLE device.
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<wpwrak_>
alas, made of unobtainium. not even octopart knows it
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: so from your perspective what you think the bluetooth is used for in anelok ?
<wpwrak_>
keyboard and analok-specific account selection
<wpwrak_>
for now, all we can do will be over proprietary (but open) protocols since BTLE is very insecure
<wpwrak_>
so the btle-capable chip is more an investment into the future
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<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: so how do I get a destination in Argentina to the Neo900 list ? :) and how much do you estimate your kits with a full case will be ? (since i don't have an N900, just the PCB would be useless for me)
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<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/stat: add processing of irclog.whitequark.org; rename #milkymist to #m-labs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1fab23c
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: sorry, I don't think Argentina is supported by the webshop yet, but I suggest mailing contact(AT)neo900.org and ask Nikolaus to manage the whole thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: we don'z know yet if and for how much we can source the N900 mech parts. Should be less that 150EUR though
<DocScrutinizer05>
for 150EUR you get a "new" N900 any time
<DocScrutinizer05>
so we hope to keep the additional cost <150EUR, incl "mounting service"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I recently found a component source in Jemen or UAE or something, who claim they have e.g. the hard-to-source slider-mech incl FPC for 5.06$
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you can find this part at all in Europe or the like, it cost 8 times as much
<DocScrutinizer05>
recently we found a seller in GB who sells the main cam module for 11GBP, we had a source that asked for 50EUR plus shipping and VAT
<DocScrutinizer05>
this all is a terrible nightmare, sourcing wise
<DocScrutinizer05>
as most sources are scam or minimum available qty
<DocScrutinizer05>
only the cases seem abundance
<wpwrak_>
so you're still planning on offering completely assembled units ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, we have to
<DocScrutinizer05>
the DIY doesn't fly
<wpwrak_>
and yes, i can imagine that sourcing must be a flaming PITA :)
<wpwrak_>
good :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the Jemen /Jordany(?) contact a user contacted me and asked how he can help, a week later he asked his next corner mobile phone shop dude who sayd he has a friend who does business in the millions with companies in UAE, Jordany, and pointed me to that supplier
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm so happy I'm not the only one looking into all that ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
> >Unfortunately the LED proposed has a common Anode but we need common Cathode for the LP5523.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what you get for doing 8+h on one topic
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the end you lose the overview while focusing on a single silly detail (like formfactor)
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw you won, finaly, at ~2100CET
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
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<wpwrak_>
(oopsie) hehe, good catch :)
<wpwrak_>
(21:00 CET) excellent. i think i went out about two hours later ;-) (around 19 local time)
<wpwrak_>
(middle eastern contact) sounds interesting. maybe he also has a friend who knows some caliph who's tired of being spied on by the NSA and the chinese and wants to order a few neo900 for himself and his harem :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
what the heck does it transport?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: btw may I state that I feel honored by your interest in getting a Neo900 :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: (Argentina) I happily will do a donation in your name and forward the receipt and eventually the device to you, via whatever shipping you chose
<DocScrutinizer05>
or you do donation yourself, pick Switzerland or Germany, and moneytransfer, and my addr or even goldelico ;-) as shipping addr. If money transfer is too expensive, transfer the money to my paypal and I'll forward it to goldelico official account
<DocScrutinizer05>
(and probably back to "my" Neo900 org account, in a few weeks ;-D )
<kyak>
wpwrak_: you should come visit Russia and see a burning truck for yourself :)
<kyak>
you have to set it on fire yourself, but that can be organized ;)
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* whitequark
likes setting things on fire
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: (honored) bah, it's the dream of openmoko finally come true. how could i possibly resist ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-) thanks!
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<DocScrutinizer05>
could I talk you into helping a bit with porting kernel (and fremantle) to that platform?
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: i can make a transfer from my .ch account, no problem. i think i'll ping sales@goldelico.com (correct ?) to make sure none of the fancy country-dependent calculations (mis)fire
<DocScrutinizer05>
correct
<wpwrak_>
phew, i have a bit of money but not all that much time ...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
though contact at neo900.org also arrives at goldelico but also at Sebastian and me
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<DocScrutinizer05>
(country-dependant calcs) not much of them apply. You simply "donate" the amount you plan to donate, you receive an invoice with a transaction number, you transfer the money according to instructions in that invoice, Nikolaus will adjust the amount in database according to the true amount of EUR arriving at our account
<DocScrutinizer05>
just make sure any transaction fee at your bank is paid by you 100%
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the money transfer is EUR, not CHF
<DocScrutinizer05>
this should already ensure that the true amount arriving at our account is exactly what you "donated" in the beginning
<wpwrak_>
yup, the transfer is no problem. just want to make sure it doesn't upset your processing or creates a tax liability on your end
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "destination" is just to make sure nobody "orders" to a country we don't know how to ship to
<DocScrutinizer05>
and for CC check
<DocScrutinizer05>
(tax) we are liable for tax anyway, for donations
<DocScrutinizer05>
this will get re-evaluated for later shipping outside of EU
<DocScrutinizer05>
for donations no shipping of physical goods -> 19% VAT
<DocScrutinizer05>
>:-(
<wpwrak_>
yeah, it's the VAT i'm concerned about. sent mail to "contacts". let's see what you come up with :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
VAT is a nobrainer for donations, since we *always* pay it
<wpwrak_>
oh, that's suckish
<DocScrutinizer05>
later on we can rollback when we actually ship a device
<wpwrak_>
ah, i see
<DocScrutinizer05>
so, VAT is largely irrelevant for the donations
<DocScrutinizer05>
just kicks in later for the *real* order
<DocScrutinizer05>
you donate 100EUR, you have a voucher worth 100EUR
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't worry about VAT
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course when you donate significantly more than 100EUR, VAT is even less of a concern even to paranoid donors
<wpwrak_>
btw, the N units each "10 EUR" is subtle ;-) i wonder how many rollbacks you get from people who accidently donate 1000 EUR ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
surprisingly little
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly due to the fact that the total is mentioned in your chart
<wpwrak_>
so people do check. good :)
<wpwrak_>
hmm, my test equipment dealer seems to be on vacation :-( asked them if they have the rigol ds2072 (which can apparently be hacked to run at 200 MHz) in stock but no response :-(
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<DocScrutinizer05>
btw I ordered 50mL of Galden goo
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: how did you manage to have a swiss bank account? I always suspected you inherited millions from some relative ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
bank of raster with accounts in Singapore and God knows who, you with account in Switzerland. I feel like I failed to manage some essential things in my life the way they should get managed
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: easy: before moving to argentina i lived in switzerland. i simply kept my old account :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Though you were Austrian
<DocScrutinizer05>
thought*
<wpwrak_>
alas, that millionaire relative who could bestow a fortune upon me still hasn't shown up :)
<wpwrak_>
yes, i am. but born in switzerland and lived there all my life, until moving down south
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh
<DocScrutinizer05>
Austrian born in Switzerland, hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw you got mail
<wpwrak_>
checking ...
<wpwrak_>
must be snail-mail :)
<wpwrak_>
very snail
<nicksydney>
morning
<wpwrak_>
maybe glacial mail
<nicksydney>
are there any hard and fast rule on what resistors to use for D+ and D- for USB ?
<wpwrak_>
i take whatever the reference design says ;-)
<nicksydney>
i see so the reference design state that for anelok...that make sense...but what if the reference design does not specify how do we estimate it ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: From: Joerg Reisenweber <reisenweber@gmx.net> To: Werner Almesberger <werner@almesberger.net>
<DocScrutinizer05>
dang!!
<DocScrutinizer05>
laintext emails
<DocScrutinizer05>
addr
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry
* DocScrutinizer05
slaps self, than headdesks a little
<wpwrak_>
looks correct
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe the glorious qi-bot could filter out TAHT?
<DocScrutinizer05>
(instead of publicly visible IP addr that are obsolete anyway when they show up in log)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or at very least obfuscate it
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<wpwrak_>
at least in my case the spammers had something like 12+ years to catch my address. if one still hasn't found it that won't help them either :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
in my case that's a tad different
<DocScrutinizer05>
not my public addr
<wpwrak_>
ah well, now it is ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, it kinda always been, and it's reasonably well spam-filtered
<DocScrutinizer05>
but luckily I'm *usually* "joerg"
<DocScrutinizer05>
only genuine with the "oe"
<DocScrutinizer05>
(or when in context of openmoko, maemo, or neo900)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and definitely I'm no firefigther, nor photographer, model, or realted to farming and crop
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, you guessed it: googling my name (usual practice every 3 months, to catch stuff that's going on relating to me without me noticing)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(gmx) still alive, just fusioned with web.de and 1&1 into unitymedia or somesuch
<DocScrutinizer05>
and this pretty much made it inoperable, I'm lucky I don't need to configure anything anymore, probably the web interface to do that only works unde MSIE
<DocScrutinizer05>
JS infested ad nauseum
<DocScrutinizer05>
web3.0 ;-)
<wpwrak_>
you wouldn't believe it but there is even another "werner almesberger"
<nicksydney>
twins ?
<wpwrak_>
naw, far from it :) the other one is 30 years older and into sports
<larsc>
who would give their twins the same surname?
<larsc>
eh, first name
<nicksydney>
we are living in a world where no 2 minds are the same :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and probably also in a world where no two siblings share one first name
<wpwrak_>
larsc: well, wouldn't it be cute ? ;-) like dressing identical twins the same, etc. if parents keep that up long enough, it must have fascinating effects on their personality development. countless precious sessions for the shrinks ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless the parernts were really really nuts
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: smart people are nuts ... check out einstein :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they would need to treat the twins as one individual
<DocScrutinizer05>
the one head could claim the other head drove the car
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: that's.... mindboggling
<wpwrak_>
amazing
<larsc>
there also seems to be one pair of conjoined twins who have two bodies but are conjoined at the head and share part of their brain and can read each others thoughts