<apelete>
wpwrak DocScrutinizer05: will take a picture of the "brackets for power supply" when I get back from fosdem, maybe you'll have an idea by seeing it
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<dos1>
Nuernberg gingerbread and cookies are yummy :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
but stricly a xmas thing
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<wpwrak>
dos1: the rest of the year, they're highly toxic
<dos1>
:o
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<DocScrutinizer05>
rather not available. Those which *are* nevertheless actually might not be that tasty, dunno if they even are toxic. Maybe, at least for germs etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, I know one place where you get fresh juicy stuff during the whole year
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe even a second, though that might have changed years ago and I wouldn't have noticed
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also dunno how much of the cinnamon is Cassia which has cumarin
<DocScrutinizer05>
cumarin itself is obviously highly controversial and interesting a substance
<DocScrutinizer05>
from medicine to toxin it has everything, broad range from carcinogen to healing cancer to killing rats to derivative warfarin (4-hydro-cumarin) blood thinner, to same substance killing kettle
<DocScrutinizer05>
kettle? dang!
<DocScrutinizer05>
cattle
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably the best widely available mass product: http://www.haeberlein-metzger.de/ (of course you can find better stuff when you know where to ask for it)
<DocScrutinizer05>
OMG!
<DocScrutinizer05>
Aachener Printen- und Schokoladenfabrik
<DocScrutinizer05>
Henry Lambertz GmbH & Co. KG
<DocScrutinizer05>
Borchersstr. 18
<DocScrutinizer05>
D-52072 Aachen
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, as usual
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, get "Elisen-Lebkucjen". Those are no fake
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/j/h
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "anyway, get "Elisen-Lebkuchen". Those are no fake"
<nicksydney>
managed to solder ATTiny13 now want to test continuity test....this is the pinout http://circuits.datasheetdir.com/18/ATTINY13-pinout.jpg ..... should it beep when i place the multimeter red cable to Pin 8 (VCC) and black cable of the multimeter to Pin 4 (GND) ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually you should be very careful with probing. You can even destroy components when the meter is cheap and poor quality or the component very delicate
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly with continuity test which applies unknown voltage to the Device Under Test
<DocScrutinizer05>
some of the better multimeters have a continuity test and a diode test. The continuity test is usually safe in this case, and the diode test is less safe but still mostly safe
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<DocScrutinizer05>
cheap multimeters however may not have 0.3V for continuity and 0.9V high impedance for diode test, but I seen even 9V(!) on continuity
<DocScrutinizer05>
from V+ to GND of your ATtiny anyway there shouln't flow more than maybe 1uA when not active (running program). This is definitely not enough for any continuity tester to start beeping
<DocScrutinizer05>
continuity tests should get done along traces and across solder points, but usually *not* across components
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you might want to think twice when deciding where to place red and black probe. E.G. when you test if pin4 is correctly connected to the PCB, you rather place red to the PCB and black to pin4, so the GND pin of chip is actually minus wrt any other point on PCB when it's NOT connected correctly
<DocScrutinizer05>
on a general note: I guess there are fewer people living on this planet that know how to probe correctly that those who really know c++
<DocScrutinizer05>
than thaose*
<DocScrutinizer05>
probing is a really high art
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Only those who have measured a lot of rubbish will learn how to measure what's important with few measurements. <<
<DocScrutinizer05>
make sure your multimeter has no "high" voltage on the probe tips when in continuity test! easy way when you have no second meter: taste both tips same time. You can taste voltage that is dangerous for chips
<DocScrutinizer05>
(no, I'm not kidding you :-D )
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<DocScrutinizer05>
9V battery is already slightly achy, but still perfectly harmless. and you can easily detect even 1.2V
<DocScrutinizer05>
with your tongue
<DocScrutinizer05>
if you never before done it, practice with a 1.5V battery to get an idea how it "tastes"
<DocScrutinizer05>
an age old very accurate and sensible way to test for low voltages. Make damn sure you don't use this method on 220V! ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I'd recommend to stay away from 12V already
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, and another iron rule (maybe too obvious but I don't want to have missed mentioning it): NEVER probe power sources of any kind for Ampere!
<DocScrutinizer05>
you wouldn't believe how many users try to not only probe for the 220V in the mains outlet but also for the 16A written on the fuse in their fuse box. They actually switch the meter to Ampere and plug it into the mains outlet
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a reason why better multimeters have a common ground jack but distinct Ampere jack and Volt/Ohm/blabla jack.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the cheaper meters actually make it very easy to accidentally switch the meter range to Ampere from volt when turning the selector knob to "off" position. I've seen several meters explode because of exactly that
<DocScrutinizer05>
as a general rule you probe for ampere only where you have CUT UP a wire or trace or the like, and place the probes to both open ends of that cut wire
<DocScrutinizer05>
test points that are not supposed to normally touch each other are usually not suited for Ampere measurements between them
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: just came back and saw your message :)
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: hope I didn't fry the MCU as I tried earlier with continuity test and it didn't beep as you said
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: what's the best thing to do to check if the MCU is ok ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
operate it
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: when you say "operate it" .. you mean program it ?
<nicksydney>
like try to flash a program into it ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for example, yes
<nicksydney>
ahh ok
<nicksydney>
so it's not like testing a 555 when you can test with multimeter
<DocScrutinizer05>
hardly, since this chip has no special pins
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't know what it's supposed to behave like when you power it up with no user program flashed. Does it come with a factory program that wiggles all pins? does it come with empty program storage and does nothing at all? I dunno
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I guess there's no "simple" special signal like a clock or sth that you can probe, that is supposed to always show sth recognizable
<nicksydney>
understood..ok be right back
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd think for safety reasons all pins will be in high-Z input state and nothing will happen. the chip should "act dead"
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe Atmel shipped it with a factory test program though, that listens for a certain challenge on one pin and then runs some test program taht would wiggle pins or echo state of one pin to another, or sth like that
<nicksydney>
nah don't think so...but let me read the datasheet
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: so I bought a new NE555N and fixed the spindle control board
<DocScrutinizer05>
works?
<whitequark>
it works, except there's a weird quirk: it works exactly in reverse
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<whitequark>
when the speed control pot is on the min position, it spins at maximal speed
<whitequark>
and vice versa
<DocScrutinizer05>
you swapped upper and lower end of poti
<whitequark>
I'm pretty sure I connected it the right way, because the cable has remembered the way it was twisted
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously not
<whitequark>
moreover, if I reverse the pot connector, it stops working properly, more specifically
<DocScrutinizer05>
or your chip has inverted logic ;-)
<whitequark>
it spins at min speed in min position, but when I start to adjust it to the max, it spins faster for some time
<whitequark>
then at a certain position it stops spinning at all and the motor makes funny noises
<DocScrutinizer05>
errr
<DocScrutinizer05>
weird
<whitequark>
the consumed current also drops to almost zero at that point
<whitequark>
EXACTLY
<whitequark>
(inverted logic) I've desoldered an ST NE555N from there. I soldered an ST NE555N there.
<DocScrutinizer05>
are you sure you didn't mix up the 555 component with some other technology?
<whitequark>
chips look exactly same except for lot number
<DocScrutinizer05>
wtf?!
<whitequark>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
lemme think a while about it
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<DocScrutinizer05>
do you have a scope?
<whitequark>
no :(
<whitequark>
it's practically impossible to import and I don't have spare $1200 to buy $200 scope locally
<whitequark>
I may have some friends with a scope though
<DocScrutinizer05>
recheck all your solder points and the connectors
<whitequark>
mhm
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly when you swap left and right end of poti, it MUST work in inverse way. Logarithmic potis may behave unpleasant regarding huge spreading at one end and extreme sensitivity at other end, but the baisc function can't change by swapping left and right end *only*
<whitequark>
actually I think the cable is not symmetrical
<DocScrutinizer05>
for me however that sounds like you swapped completely and when you try to swap back, you actually swap middle with one end
<whitequark>
see, the poti has a 3-pin molex connector on its wires. I can't mix it up completely, there are only 2 ways to plug it in
<whitequark>
and the cable is bent in a particular way which demonstrates how it's been installed before, apart from my recordings
<whitequark>
(solder joints) rechecked, no faults I can observe. retouched them all with a bit of flux, let me check the behavior.
<whitequark>
actually, hm, can RMA resistance lead to this weird effect? I can't see how
<DocScrutinizer05>
I told you to swap upper and lower end of poti, not to turn around connector
<whitequark>
er
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's RMA?
<whitequark>
rosin mildly activated
<whitequark>
(swap upper and lower end) ok, I'll do that, but why? obviously that won't correspond to original schematics?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I can't diagnose stuff from remote without eyes and without schematics and without a layout of PCB
<whitequark>
oh, schematics and layout is easy, sec
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't see anything. But the problem is under the metal latches
<DocScrutinizer05>
around the rivet
<DocScrutinizer05>
the carbon trace element is basically a simple PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
coated with a special "copper" layer
<whitequark>
I see
<whitequark>
ok, so I wanted to make it PWM anyway
<whitequark>
let me see if that even works on the stepper control board
<whitequark>
I need vodka or something
<whitequark>
for cleaning the PCBs of course
<whitequark>
they passed the law that you can't buy pure ethanol in >50ml quantities...
<wpwrak>
whitequark: (flux) yes, flux very be nicely conductive. easily a few ten kOhm, maybe even more
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i found out about that then i put a nice external 100 kOhm pull-up on an nRESET input of atusb. when i tried to turn on the still flux-loaded board, the damn chip wouldn't come out of reset ... took me a while to realize that the chip was perfectly healthy ...
<whitequark>
wpwrak: what flux wsa that?
<wpwrak>
i think that was with a "water soluble" flux. but i guess they all can do that to a larger or smaller extent.
<whitequark>
"water soluble" ones are apparently much worse at this...
<wpwrak>
maybe
<whitequark>
that makes total sense, they must be polar if they need to be soluble in water
<whitequark>
=> mobile charge carriers
<whitequark>
this RMA residue doesn't have any resistance my DMM can measure
<wpwrak>
(polar) yes, but there may be other fun things in the formula
<wpwrak>
btw, i found a ""No Clean Water Washable Tack Flux": Chipquik SMD4300TF10. at digi-key as SMD4300TF10-ND
<wpwrak>
works quite nicely. but a bit too tacky - you feel dirty working with it rather quickly
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<whitequark>
ok, I think I'm dumb
<whitequark>
this board has a component installed, it's a DC-DC converter
<whitequark>
from 5VDC to 5VDC
<whitequark>
what.
<whitequark>
oh, it's isolating, nevermind
<whitequark>
cool, the board has properly populated and connected ports for limit switches, probe, pwm and charge pump
<whitequark>
oh and spindle direction
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<whitequark>
awesome. I now have a working machine and it even can do more than before
<whitequark>
at 24V my adjustable PSU has enough beef to drive 2 steppers and spindle at 100%
<whitequark>
and I now even have control of spindle via EMC2!
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
in a way, they sent you exactly what you really wanted - a CNC mill you could modify at your heart's content without any remorse
<whitequark>
word.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: by the way, do you have any idea how to measure spindle speed?
<roh>
wpwrak: there are no unmodded mills... everybody mods
<roh>
nice you got speed control. we only have a pot on a box
<roh>
but the motor also eats 800W dc at something between 100 and 250V
<whitequark>
roh: (pot on a box) I had it too. but turns out that motor PCB has PWM in, and control PCB has PWM out
<whitequark>
so it was a matter of two wires and correct emc2 config
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<roh>
whitequark: yeah. nice.
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<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/mlabs: not very smart script to download monthly log of #m-labs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/62bd73e
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: (calibrate spindle speed) use a magnet in spindle - as "tool". and a coil you get near to the rotating magnet. Then listen to the audio output of that coil and compare to your piano ;-)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I actually rather like roh's suggestion
<whitequark>
because it means emc2 will maintain spindle speed regardless of load
<DocScrutinizer05>
err that suggestion is basically identical, just it uses more complicated sensor
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh, you want to permanently control spindle speed, not calibrate it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
.s/control/meter/
<whitequark>
I actually think measuring it permanently is better
<DocScrutinizer05>
then go for the principle "scope across the 2 pcs 1R on"
<DocScrutinizer05>
though I think a feedback loop to regulate spindle speed is massive overkill
<whitequark>
that feedback look is basically free
<whitequark>
because emc2 already implements it
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc what's emc2
<whitequark>
aka linuxcnc
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh lol, no, that won't fly
<whitequark>
why?
<DocScrutinizer05>
implementing a PID-regulator in software is sort of.... a PITA, given your hw limitations
<DocScrutinizer05>
your loop turnaround time is way too high
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW the phaseshift is way too huge
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it's definitely not 2for free"
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can implement a dynamic calibration
<whitequark>
wait, why is turnaround time too high?
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is sort of a PID with ultralong integral and zero differential component
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway I'd use voltage from electromotoric effect of spindle motor during PWM power off periods to conclude the current spindle speed
<DocScrutinizer05>
or, even better, the inevitable noise in motor current from the motor switching coils while spinning
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually some automotive components (cassette player, radio) use same effect from car generator to get engine RPM and thus background noise and adjust volume automatically
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the end, your spindle turns at the RPM you've set it to via your PWM
<DocScrutinizer05>
you don't really need any regulator loop