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<gour>
morning
<gour>
just read report about Racket CS, but wonder if there are some news in regard to Rhombus (Racket2)?
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<notnotdan>
hi
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<erkin>
hi
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<gour>
in a recent time I was exploring possibility to use Eiffel language for writing (multi-platform) desktop app - it provides kind of gui DSL and uses Design by Contracts (DbC) methodology. now I see that Racket also has support for contracts (https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/contracts.html) as well as gui DSL (https://docs.racket-lang.org/gui/index.html). now, putting aside OOP vs FP, anyone familiar with Eiffel can compare Racket vs Eiffel for the
<gour>
project?
<gour>
yes, I also want easy/simple FFI to bind 3rd party C lib which I'd require...
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<bremner>
gour: putting aside OOP vs. FP seems to miss the easy basis to make the decision.
<dzoe>
What is faster? make-sized-byte-string/unsafe-bytes-ref or (ptr-ref cptr _byte 123)?
<dzoe>
The documentation is completely silent about performance implications (i.e. inlining to single function when it comes to it)
<dzoe>
I mean single instruction
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<gour>
bremner: i agree. i meant to say, "besides OOP vs FP" iow. things like expected performance, static/dynamic typing, ecosytem, size of community etc. Eiffel might be simpler language (to learn), but Racket is also straightforward with its parens :-)
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<samth>
salmon123: if there's a good logging service we can use I'd be happy to do that
<samth>
technomancy: in the sense that you have to understand continuations to understand why that doesn't work, you have to understand continuations to understand any program at all
<technomancy>
samth: haha, yeah that's fair
<samth>
i can believe that using the word "continuation" in that explanation is maybe not the right choice, though
<vraid>
is racket really moving away from s-expressions? :/
<erkin>
vraid: It's not certain.
<erkin>
It depends on whether the Rhombus project succeeds.
<vraid>
rhombus project?
<erkin>
The codename of Racket 2.
<erkin>
It's not certain if it's going to be a successful project to replace Racket itself.
<bremner>
I was under the impression that it would be just another front end
<bremner>
I haven't followed things closely though
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<erkin>
As far as I can tell, original Racket will still be maintained, but the focus will shift to Rhombus instead.
<technomancy>
nd rhombus will fix things like the fact that `length' only works on lists?
<erkin>
I think there are modules for that already.
<technomancy>
sure, but defaults matter
<vraid>
#lang racket` is not going away and will always have its current
<vraid>
supports `#lang scheme` and `#lang mzscheme` and even `(module
<vraid>
parenthesis-oriented syntax. In the same way that Racket still
<vraid>
<name> mzscheme ....)` and even top-level programs
<vraid>
ah. fair
<erkin>
I suppose it will become legacy then.
<bremner>
Why do you think that?
<erkin>
Because #lang (mz)scheme is legacy.
<gour>
and any experimental Rhombus implementation is still very far away?
<erkin>
Yeah, it's still in the early brainstorming phase.
<gour>
so, i'm considering Racket vs Eiffel, better to just fix on what is available in Racket today :-)
<erkin>
The first implementation probably won't come into existence until several years later anyway.
<gour>
uhh ok
<erkin>
Of Rhombus, I mean.
<gour>
sure, Racket is healthy and alive, even CS one
<notnotdan>
CS = Chez Scheme?
<gour>
yep
<gour>
i mean, Racket CS
<erkin>
Yeah, Racket CS is now production ready.
<gour>
i know that language-wise, Racket is very interesting for language enthusiasts, but (besides FP-nature) I very much like that it has DSL language for writing GUI apps abstracting things over native platforms, so just wonder do you you consider whether Racket is production-ready for desktop gui apps?
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<erkin>
Absolutely.
<technomancy>
I wouldn't really consider anything else for desktop gui programs
<technomancy>
(and racket is far from my first language)
<erkin>
racket/gui is genuinely one of the best high-level GUI DSLs out there.
<erkin>
Perhaps the best.
<gour>
i know only about ActivityLog2 example, besides DrRacket
<technomancy>
erkin: IMO elisp is nicer if you're targeting emacs users, but for conventional guis nothing beats racket =)
<technomancy>
not having buffers or ido is kind of a drag; don't know how people put up with it
<erkin>
It'd've taken me several weeks with Qt and C++.
* gour
is thinking about "old-school" desktop app
<gour>
erkin: cute ;)
<erkin>
:-3
<gour>
otherwise, Racket's community seems to be bigger than Eiffel, top class docs, stand-alone executables, package manager, prospect of Racket CS...all looks well
<gour>
have to inspect about FFI
<erkin>
FFI is a bit of a pickle right now, because Racket CS is going to have a different set of C FFI, based on Chez's.
<gour>
i see...
<notnotdan>
for not very complicated GUIs racket/gui is definitely the best
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<notnotdan>
once you need some advanced drag and drop and copy-pasting from different sources.. then you need to write a bunch of code yourself
<erkin>
Racket BC has two FFIs, based on whether you use CGC or 3m GC.
<notnotdan>
but it's also not very hard to do because teh GUI system is based on objects and interfaces, and you can easily create your own abstractions using classes
<gour>
erkin: i'm on linux (devuan), bt would like to provide versions for win & mac os...racket's gui uses Cocoa for Mac?
<erkin>
notnotdan: Even then, it takes comparatively little effort to extend the standard library and implement your own procedures.
<notnotdan>
yeah
<erkin>
Yup.
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<erkin>
It works out of the box crossplatform.
<notnotdan>
it's probably less feature-full then Qt, but once you need to implement something yourself, it's much much easier
<erkin>
I developed this on Linux only and it worked on Windows, macOS and OpenBSD without any changes.
<notnotdan>
oh and yeah crossplatform is cool
<technomancy>
gour: I've build windows .exes on debian using wine; pretty easy
<erkin>
On Linux and BSDs, you can pick whether it should use GTK 2 or 3 by an environment variable.
<erkin>
with an*
<notnotdan>
i just wish there would be more components for it, and an easy way to debug event dispatch
<erkin>
Yeah, it could use some more exploration.
<gour>
cool. i like/prefer gtk over qt
<gour>
Eiffel Studio stll does only gtk2...
<erkin>
Even with Framework and MrLib there are things you need to implement yourself if you're doing finicky stuff.
<notnotdan>
yeah .. what's is the reason why Framework is a separate package btw?
<erkin>
It's big.
<notnotdan>
i'd imagine it could be part of gui-lib
<gour>
any url for Framework/MrLib?
<notnotdan>
is most of it stuff to do with editor<%>s?
<erkin>
racket/gui was more or less developed for/with DrRacket and Framework and MrLib were the extra libraries that DrRacket uses but are seldom used by others.