<Ionic`>
So in this case I should define the accessor
<gogiel>
attr_accessible creates two methods - getter and setter
<Ionic`>
aah
<gogiel>
and if you use it you can call self.sections
<Ionic`>
ok, that makes sense
<gogiel>
but it's better to call sections, you don't nee self
<Ionic`>
but do I really want to expose getters and setters to the outside world? mmh
<gogiel>
no
<Ionic`>
not really, I'll just use @sections
<gogiel>
yes
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<Ionic`>
thanks :)
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<digitalcakestudi>
other the is_a conditions what can I do to read a class of an object
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<Spooner>
digitalcakestudi : Depends what you want. #class does well, but #is_a? is generally more useful.
<digitalcakestudi>
thanks
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<goddard>
i noticed ruby looks a lot like python is that true?
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<twock>
In some ways, yes.
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<goddard>
what are some advantages in switching from php to ruby?
<mdszy>
goddard: I've heard that PHP is just god-awful xD
<mdszy>
I've never used it myself, though
<jrajav>
goddard: You stop waking up with cold sweats at night
<jonathanwallace>
goddard: a sane API
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<goddard>
ive heard a lot about ruby lately so i decided to check it out
<goddard>
so its a compiled language not a scripting language?
<seanstickle>
It can be compiled, but in almost every case is not.
<seanstickle>
The standard interpreter does not compile it.
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<jrajav>
goddard: It's an interpreted language, I don't know about scripting
<jrajav>
When I think "scripting language" I think bash, applescript, autohotkey (lol)
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<seanstickle>
It falls under the rubric of "scripting languages" as that term was used 10 years ago
<jrajav>
Yeah
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<jrajav>
When scripting language was anything that didn't run like C
<Gneiss>
Ruby or python, GO:
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<seanstickle>
I've heard Go is quite nice
<Gneiss>
Dart?
<seanstickle>
Less nice
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<jrajav>
Dart is what happened when a bunch of pro Java coders found themselves in 2010 looking at Javascript creeping into everything they were working on
<jrajav>
And went EW EW GET IT OFF
<jrajav>
GET THE DEET
<Gneiss>
That actually sounds pretty accurate.
<seanstickle>
I thought that's what they made GWT for
<Gneiss>
Nah, they thought they might fix the languages while they're at it.
<jrajav>
You know Google coding is basically oozing Java out of every pore
<jrajav>
If it's not Java, it should be
<Gneiss>
python :P
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<jrajav>
I actually really like Javascript
<jrajav>
It has a ton of annoying quirks
<jrajav>
But hell so does Java
<Gneiss>
Honestly, I never really used it :/
<Gneiss>
Java can be frustrating :P
<Gneiss>
I kinda just know enough javascript to use jquery... :P
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<jrajav>
haha
<Gneiss>
Hey, it works for what I need XD
<jrajav>
jquery is barely javascript :P
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<Gneiss>
Okay well
<Gneiss>
I learned a bit of JS to add dynamics to some sites
<jrajav>
If you're interested, read Javascript: The Good Parts, you might actually start liking it too
<Gneiss>
but that was it.
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<Gneiss>
so I was like, this is pointless, I should just use jquery
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<jrajav>
Until you wrap your head around it, it's hard to see it as anything but a dynamically typed C
<Gneiss>
and it does EVERYTHING I need it for
<goddard>
javascript is nice to read compared to jquery for me
<Gneiss>
Yeah?
<Gneiss>
(the dynamic c)
<goddard>
jquery is kind of cryptic
<goddard>
until you learn it
<Gneiss>
errrr
<Gneiss>
I don't know, I found it to be the other way
<Gneiss>
I read jquery code and I was like
<Gneiss>
"What code?
<Gneiss>
"
<goddard>
i started on the javascript source though
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<Gneiss>
oh
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<sreko>
Hello. I am using Ruby 1.9.2 and I'm trying out a project called furnace-swf. I know you don't support modules created by a specific author, although I feel as if I'm missing a dependency with ruby to make it work. An error I get is this:
<healpay>
well based on the header.signature, it's not picking up the string FWS or CWS
<healpay>
so
<healpay>
maybe you can run irb, require the gem, instantiate a new File object,
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<healpay>
and try running some of the methods related to the header
<sreko>
Possibly.
<healpay>
to so exactly what is going on
<healpay>
see*
<healpay>
brb, gonna take a shower.. let me know if that works for you :)
<sreko>
Alright, thank you.
<neiZ>
Hello, I am trying to learn ruby and am creating a binary search method. I have it written, but am working on a unit test for it. I would like to use assert_equal, however even after installing the test-unit gem, and requiring "test/unit", I get undefined metho 'assert_equal' - anyone able to shed some light?
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<Ionic`>
neiZ: require "test/unit/assertions"?
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<neiZ>
Ionic`: hmm, still giving me the same error of undefined method 'assert_equal' - if you dont mind, gist: https://gist.github.com/3064056
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<ryanf>
neiZ: you need to make a class that inherits Test::Unit::TestCase
<ryanf>
and put your method in there
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<Gavilan>
Does anyone has any idea/suggestion of an interesting, complex and difficult software design problem (or domain) to solve/model as an exercise/example? yet small in scope? which uses only "common" knowledge?
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<offby1>
now, that's a stumper.
<offby1>
I like writing a program to find anagrams.
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<Gavilan>
offby1: the difficult there it's algorithmic, not design...
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<jsilver>
hey #ruby, my love
<jsilver>
how do i add something to the front of an array instead of the end?
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<jsilver>
nvm
<jsilver>
#insert
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<Boohbah>
lolirccloud
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<fowl>
Boohbah, bring back my friends
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<jameshyde>
how do you change date type's to_s method, like '2012-07-06T23:48:36-05:00' to '2012-07-06 23:48:36'?
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<ryanf>
jameshyde: date's to_s actually takes a format parameter
<banisterfiend>
burgestrand: who is zapnap, do u know him?
<burgestrand>
banisterfiend: no idea who he is, I just thought it’d be easy enough to make a pastebin in sinatra, recalled I had read about an OSS variant of it, and found it by googling :)
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<k_89>
man ruby gems ... arggghhhhh
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<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: thanks
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: out of interest though in what context is the behaviuor that useful? cant you just look at what you've typed and see what needs to be closed?
<apeiros_>
I sometimes have longer pieces
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<apeiros_>
also sometimes I miss where I omitted to close e.g. a nested #{}
<apeiros_>
so it's helpful to see that it doesn't execute something because you forgot to close something
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<apeiros_>
with simple prompt you just sit there and wonder :)
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: hmm, but doesn't the syntax highlighting indicate things too?
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: do u have the pry version where it auto-syntax highlights each line after u press enter?
<apeiros_>
I have none in irb. but yes, it might be that in pry that will change.
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: btw, i will add this feature, im just curious :)
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<apeiros_>
so I *might* change the prompt. I didn't think of that. but if you add it, I'll go with it and see how it works out :)
<apeiros_>
meeeh, JS has no String#capitalize :(
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<apeiros_>
:( also it has no negative lookahead in regexen
* apeiros_
cries
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<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: hey did u see our new color theme stuff?
<apeiros_>
will probably do my own then. a very soft one
<apeiros_>
can we use color codes too?
<apeiros_>
or do we have to use names?
<apeiros_>
hm… can patch that if necessary :)
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: not yet, but his command converts numbers to namees for u
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: so if you know the number, it'll tell u the name to use
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<banisterfiend>
i dont know why he didnt accept numbers by default..
<apeiros_>
patchable
* apeiros_
is currently hating on JS again…
<apeiros_>
writing an address input field. plain textarea which plucks out things like street number, street name, zip code, city etc.
<apeiros_>
you'd wonder about how many details that entails :-S
<apeiros_>
stupid french with their "street number, street name" format…
<shevy>
see I passed that stage already
<shevy>
I never liked javascript much to begin with
<banisterfiend>
fuck the french
<shevy>
dont tell Mon_Ouie !!!
<banisterfiend>
shevy: Mon_Ouie is only pseudo-french
<shevy>
hmm
<matled>
apeiros_: there is some google api to put just a string and it returns detailed information iirc, including the parsed address and coordinates
<matled>
dunno if it is helpful in your case..
<apeiros_>
matled: might try it. I have to mirror it server side, though
<apeiros_>
(never trust user input and stuff - especially not our users…)
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<shevy>
yeah
<shevy>
I would not even trust myself when I input things
<apeiros_>
hm, stupid me… it's an http request. of course I can do that from the server too…
<shevy>
somehow ruby subclassing vs. mixins still confuses me
<apeiros_>
shevy: you do ruby for over 8 years, no?
<shevy>
I had all classes in one project subclass from a Base class. now I rewrote it... and I use a module, rather than subclassing
<apeiros_>
yeah, ok, finding "the best" way is always hard.
<kapowaz>
anybody have any idea what this is about? I'm doing this on Snow Leopard (10.6)
<shevy>
apeiros_ yeah. well, if given enough time I should be able to figure out what is going on even in other people's code. but when I write something that is quite large, I wonder how to make it better. or smaller...
<shevy>
though ruby style with lots of lambdas still confuses me
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<shevy>
kapowaz: you could try to use machomebrew and see if this error exists there, lots of mac users use it :) #machomebrew
<workmad3>
perfection is impossible
<shevy>
workmad3: lies!!!!!
<shevy>
though it probably won't last for long
<kapowaz>
shevy: I already use homebrew
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<shevy>
the zebra has to run only faster than the slowest zebra lest the lion catches the other one
<kapowaz>
but this is a gem install command that's failing here, nothing to do with brew
<kapowaz>
(it fails building native extensions)
<shevy>
workmad3: which of your projects is the nicest one in terms of code clarity and style? https://github.com/workmad3
<workmad3>
shevy: none of them? they all suck :)
<workmad3>
I'm really crap at getting anything done on my own stuff
<shevy>
kapowaz: all I see is "make" command failing in a .cpp file
<shevy>
now if I would actually know C++ ... :)
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<shevy>
workmad3: hmmmm
<shevy>
but I want to learn from other people's styles
<Shipow>
hello ! need a hand to upgrade ruby on debian
<shevy>
ack
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<shevy>
debian messes up ruby, it is best to ask them how to clean up
<Shipow>
what's best release to ruby ?
<workmad3>
shevy: annoyingly, all my recent work stuff is closed source atm
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<shevy>
Shipow: 1.9.3* something, the latest. second best is legacy 1.8.x
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<shevy>
dunno what debian uses, I heard they switched to 1.9.x something
<Shipow>
on squeeze it's 1.8.7
<kapowaz>
okay, how does one tell a gem that builds native extensions to build in 64-bit mode instead of 32-bit?
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<workmad3>
shevy: it's also mostly rails apps :P
<Shipow>
but i planned to learn RoR so i thought that was a good idea to upgrade to 1.9
<shevy>
kapowaz: good question! not sure that is possible... perhaps if you can find the Makefile, you could add some kind of switch... like -m32 or something like that
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<shevy>
workmad3: ok I dont want to learn rails style
<workmad3>
shevy: I don't have a 'typical' rails style
<kapowaz>
that's weird.
<workmad3>
kapowaz: you can pass configure and compile switches though to gem with gem install <whatever> -- -compiler -switches
<kapowaz>
workmad3: aha.
<shevy>
cool
<kapowaz>
don't suppose you'd know what switch you'd use to tell it to use x64 ?
<workmad3>
nafc
<kapowaz>
:)
<heftig>
kapowaz: are you building on windows?
<kapowaz>
seems weird I'm the only one to have encountered this, at least according to Google.
<kapowaz>
no, OS X 10.6
<kapowaz>
I run 10.7 on my other machines but my desktop is still on Snow Leopard
<benwithjamm_in>
Hi all, im new to ruby and struggling a little to get my head around scopes. hhttp://pastebin.com/Bt0SyKNS I know the user_answer setter is been called as I can see it, however its value on each result returned from the scope is always null. What am i missing here? Thanks
<shevy>
Shipow: if you dont have any luck with debian ruby upgrade, you could always try to use RVM https://rvm.io/
<kapowaz>
I'm just in the process of switching from using rvm to rbenv
<workmad3>
kapowaz: you mean other than the open issue on event machine for 0.12.10 for what looks like a similar issue on solaris? :P
<heftig>
doesn't that build fat libs anyway?
<shevy>
haha fat libs MONSTER LIBS
<kapowaz>
workmad3: that one didn't show up when I googled. Hmm.
<workmad3>
kapowaz: best place to start is to look at the github issues page for a project rather than random googling :)
* workmad3
should try and practice that one himself more
<shevy>
hey benwithjamm_in
<shevy>
where from does: selected_response = answers.joins { responses }.where{ responses.user_id == user_id }.first
<kapowaz>
fair point.
<shevy>
come? the answers part
<Shipow>
shevy : i just read that RVM wasn't a good idea beacause magical var like $PATH will not work on cron etc
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<benwithjamm_in>
hey, shevy. object graph is questions -> answers -> responses the first is just a temp hack to get around the fact ive got no validation (user will only be able to answer once when finished)
<shevy>
benwithjamm_in: ok but the "answers". where from does it come? I can not see it in the snippet you pasted
<shevy>
also pastie.org has much nicer colours for ruby code :D
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: that looks almost like rails code
<benwithjamm_in>
it is rails code, wrong place?
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: except that you're badly misusing lambdas...
<shevy>
depends on the question
<shevy>
but usually rails code is highly specific
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: that in fact looks like you're trying to figure things out based on something like a python ORM rather than just reading the activerecord guide on guides.rubyonrails.org :P
<benwithjamm_in>
ok cool, let me know if too rails specific and i will ask elsewhere. the answers are are AR has_many
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<shevy>
:)
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<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: for example, this line is nonsense to rails - answers.joins { responses }.where{ responses.user_id == user_id }.first
<Shipow>
"aptitude purge ruby" done the trick
<shevy>
Shipow: hehe didnt this just kill all of debian ruby?
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: it should be answers.joins(:responses).where('responses.user_id' => user_id).first
<benwithjamm_in>
im using the squeeel gem for AR querrying
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<benwithjamm_in>
hence the syntax
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: ah, never come across that one
<Shipow>
shevy maybe, but don't know the consequences :)
<apeiros_>
Shipow: re rvm & cron - yes, but you can let rvm create a wrapper script which loads the rvm env.
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: your scope isn't chainable either, btw
<shevy>
Shipow: well if everything fails, you can still compile ruby from source. even on debian. I did that usually via "apt-get install build-essentials" or something like that, then compile ruby into /usr prefix. or /usr/local, doesnt matter that much
<shevy>
aha
<shevy>
I dont get why debian versions towards 1.9.1
<shevy>
is this 1.9.2 now or 1.9.1
<shevy>
and why does it version binaries anyway
<workmad3>
I think debian's '1.9.1' binaries are actually 1.9.3 now
<shevy>
hehe
<shevy>
why make things simple when you can make them complicated!
<Shipow>
:)
<workmad3>
they just kept the 1.9.1 version specifiers because 'fuck you, users'
<shevy>
yeah they are not alone in that though, developers hate users everywhere
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: incidentally, I would learn plain AR syntax and style before using extra gems like that squeel one
<benwithjamm_in>
that would probabbly be a wise move :)
<benwithjamm_in>
so the way i see this i have two options, a)drop the scope completly and do it in a function. or b)use a function but call the scope then enumerate and call the setter and return
<benwithjamm_in>
b)seems a bit messy as the scope will never be used anywhere else
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: sounds about right
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: and also, if you do have rails-specific questions, #rubyonrails is the place to go ;)
<workmad3>
benwithjamm_in: but quite a few people are there and here (e.g. me :) )
<benwithjamm_in>
ok thanks all, will ask in #rubyonrails next time :)
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<shevy>
maaaaaan I think I hate CSS
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<benwithjamm_in>
I think CSS is fantastic. Broswer compliance on the other hand :(
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<workmad3>
shevy: just learning CSS, or is this a hatred from years of use? :)
<shevy>
workmad3: well. simple CSS is alright... but all this "if this <p> resides in that <div> tag with that id, apply this style here"
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<workmad3>
shevy: ah, and of course that couples with the specificity rules too
<kapowaz>
that's simple enough.
<workmad3>
yeah, simple once you know them :)
<kapowaz>
div > p { /* rules only applying to a p that is an immediate descendent of a div */ }
<workmad3>
kapowaz: div + p ;)
<kapowaz>
nope
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<kapowaz>
that's the adjacent selector
<kapowaz>
that would only target a p that immediately follows a div
<kapowaz>
reading the W3C stuff on selectors is a good start.
<kapowaz>
it's actually far easier to learn than something like xpath
<kapowaz>
still can't get eventmachine installed here. sigh.
<workmad3>
Spooner: sass only helps once you've gotten a handle on selectors
<workmad3>
shevy: they're just declarations
<workmad3>
shevy: <pattern> should be styled with {style}
<kapowaz>
the tough stuff in CSS isn't really CSS at all, but the box model, floats and clearing elements.
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<workmad3>
kapowaz: that is all CSS
<workmad3>
kapowaz: it's all part of the CSS standard ;)
<kapowaz>
sure it's CSS, but it's not the writing rules that makes it hard ;)
<workmad3>
kapowaz: but yes, it's understanding what's happening, rather than the syntax :)
<kapowaz>
understanding how various elements in the page flow into one another once you start using floats or absolute vs relative positioning is tricky for some people to get a handle on.
<kapowaz>
okay, this not being able to build eventmachine is going to ruin my day.
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<kapowaz>
not been able to work on this project all week, and I have this morning set aside for dev.
<shevy>
buy beer
<kapowaz>
there isn't an EM channel is there?
<workmad3>
kapowaz: have you tried 'gem install eventmachine --pre'L
<workmad3>
?
<shevy>
hmm there could be
<workmad3>
kapowaz: or is 0.12.10 a requirement?
<shevy>
look at #eventmachine ?
<shevy>
but like not many there
<kapowaz>
workmad3: not specifically tried that, but I did try to install one of the alphas — same failure
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<atmosx>
hmm maybe freebsd was a mistake
<atmosx>
or I'm too bored to get through all this learning how to use ports process
<workmad3>
kapowaz: well, they have 1.0 rcs on rubygems, the latest from just over a week ago... that's not an alpha, maybe try the --pre ;)
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<workmad3>
right, g2g
<workmad3>
have fun
<kapowaz>
workmad3: it fails too
<kapowaz>
:(
<kapowaz>
ta ta
<workmad3>
kapowaz: boo :(
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<kapowaz>
woah, wait
<kapowaz>
I ran it in another shell and it worked.
<kapowaz>
maybe it was actually to do with gcc
<kapowaz>
I just installed the osx-gcc compiler
<kapowaz>
that looks like that was the issue
<shevy>
atmosx: I felt that way too
<kapowaz>
bloody Xcode…
<shevy>
my problem was that after a few hours, I wondered why I use it when I basically get all this on linux already. and just for ports alone... was not worth it. I better improve on my ruby scripts to install and compile things, that way at least I am in control of what is going on and I know how to change it too
<atmosx>
shevy: I'll use it for a month or so, If it continues to look so rigid for no reason I'll switch back to gentoo.
<shevy>
hehe
<shevy>
I wanted to use PCBSD because it has a nicer philosophy
<atmosx>
shevy: Yes, well I switched to it, to avoid Gentoo's often updates on an rdc (vortex86 cpu) SoC
<atmosx>
and if you don't do often upgrades there, you're get problems in the long way...
<atmosx>
pcbsd? as a desktop you mena?
<atmosx>
as a desktop I wouldn't change macosx for anythign right now…
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<kapowaz>
now bundle install is failing even though it successfully built the gem a moment ago, with a permissions error. Schitz.
<kapowaz>
I think I must have sudoed at some point whilst trying to use the x64 arch, but I didn't actually switch into su
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<kapowaz>
and now it fails to build again.
<kapowaz>
;_;
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<shevy>
hehe
<shevy>
the joy of native extensions!
<shevy>
atmosx: yeah but I dont really see the distinction between server and desktop per se
<shevy>
to me it comes down to this - arrange packages into standalone directories, versioned. then let the user simply install what he or she needs
<shevy>
I don't believe into the linux "solution" to dump stuff into / and /usr prefix
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<shevy>
unfortunately linux is stuck with this world view for eternity
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<kapowaz>
I'm really fucked off by this.
<kapowaz>
an hour of my day lost
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<shevy>
yeah
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<shevy>
investigating compile problems isn't a lot of fun
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<atmosx>
shevy: true
<kapowaz>
what I don't get is why it suddenly worked, then stopped
<kapowaz>
I installed the osx-gcc compiler and it worked
<atmosx>
osx-gcc?
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<shevy>
probably their gcc wrapper
<shevy>
though I thought they moved to llvm completely already
<shevy>
atmosx: you coding anything cool?
<atmosx>
yes I have llvm here, that's why I'm asking
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* atmosx
is in macosx lion
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<shevy>
oh I see
<kapowaz>
I don't fully understand why, but apparently the later versions of Xcode have a version of gcc which doesn't work with a lot of older code.
<kapowaz>
and it's something to do with the LLVM
<atmosx>
shevy: just fine-tuning my fail2ban script, I have to re-write a large part of it… and re-write all the handling based on argv's… but it's ready on my mind mostly
<atmosx>
shevy: u?
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<shevy>
I kinda finished my "cookbooks" project 2 days ago, at least to the point where I could make it a gem (still was too lazy to do that though)
<shevy>
next step is to add the compile scripts on top of this project, in its own project
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<atmosx>
what's the project about?
<shevy>
then I'll see what I will add on to that... one todo entry is "replace libtool"
<shevy>
just so that you can compile or install something anywhere
<shevy>
generate .rpms etc... like what checkinstall does
<shevy>
it's more a meta project than one with a very specific goal
<shevy>
- bundle together everything that a developer may find useful
<atmosx>
I see
<atmosx>
nice
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<shevy>
hmm I have an odd question
<shevy>
in css, I like boxes with colours ( usually <div> tags)
<shevy>
typically, the header of that box has a dark background, i.e. dark green. and then, the content of that box, has a lighter green background
<shevy>
is there ... any algorithm or anything else to use to find patterns for this? like "if I give you a strange dark blue, spit out a light blue colour for me"
<canton7>
shevy, sass has the lighten() function. might be worth looking at
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<shevy>
oh cool thanks canton7
<atmosx>
calibre and kindle works awesomly good together.
<atmosx>
I wonder if there's a way to make a server do the "fetch/convert/send" job on kindle
<apeiros_>
I think the indicator is a string which you can use directly
<apeiros_>
the type is information. but not sure. I'd have to look it up.
<apeiros_>
ping me tomorrow again, I'll see that I look it up
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: is just providing indicator ok?
<apeiros_>
the string thing? sure…
<banisterfiend>
for now anyway
<banisterfiend>
maybe i can do the other thing too
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: one more q. what is historical_line (including the history)
<apeiros_>
say you open a session
<apeiros_>
you start with line 1
<apeiros_>
but you have history containing 10_000 lines
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<apeiros_>
so you're on historical_line 10_001
<banisterfiend>
ah
<banisterfiend>
cool
<banisterfiend>
yeah no prob
<apeiros_>
that one is not that important
<banisterfiend>
we expose the pry instance itself, so all that stuff is easily accessible
<banisterfiend>
but i might wrap it up a bit more nicely
<apeiros_>
it's mostly useful if you have something like bash's !101
<apeiros_>
ok
<apeiros_>
well, gotta run. leaving soon and got to prepare some things :)
<banisterfiend>
cya
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<kapowaz>
so, I upgraded to Lion.
<kapowaz>
in the process this means I've upgraded to Xcode 4.3.3 and installed the Command Line tools for that, but despite that, I still can't install eventmachine
<banisterfiend>
is public_instance_methods on 1.8 ?
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<Ethan>
kapowaz: fuck off you shit
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<kapowaz>
what a rude person.
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<KevinSjoberg>
Does anyone know where I can find other people that want to build something in Ruby together? I mean, is there some sort of website for those kind of requests or should I just ask directly here at IRC?
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<Spaceghostc2c>
shevy: Go read through it.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Like, it's not horrible, but it isn't anything I'd write.
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<Spaceghostc2c>
I'd write it closer to a Unix philosophy of small things doing only one thing.
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<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: i suppose here is a good place. what do you want to build?
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<atmosx>
let's build a castle!
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<KevinSjoberg>
tamaska: Well, I want to experiment a bit with the TCP socket through Ruby and was thinking of building an simple IRC client. The final result should be a Ruby gem with an CLI interface.
<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: a simple irc client would be good.
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<atmosx>
I like irssi
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<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: i was considering writing a simple but extensible irc bot as practice.
* atmosx
swingle
<davidcelis>
weechat
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<KevinSjoberg>
tamaska: Indeed. Feels like a hard-enough project and I think building something like that would cover some interesting topics such as threads, sockets and learning the IRC protocol.
<davidcelis>
atmosx: i saw that
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* atmosx
ducks and runs
<davidcelis>
hahaha
<KevinSjoberg>
atmosx: Irssi is nice, I use it myself. This is mere of an experiment.
<atmosx>
why build something that already exists and works fine?
<davidcelis>
to learn?
<Spaceghostc2c>
atmosx: Why not?
<atmosx>
even weechat users are happy with that lame mIRC-like, terminal client
<KevinSjoberg>
atmosx: To learn?
<Spaceghostc2c>
I love weechat. :D
<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: what about writing a nice irc backend with an api, and then building a gui all in ruby? think that might be good?
<Spaceghostc2c>
It's not really mIRC-like, but mkay.
<KevinSjoberg>
atmosx: If everyone thought like that, technology would never envolve.
<atmosx>
okay, agreed… learning is what I need to do also… but isn't it better to create something it does not exist already or something that could be made better?
<atmosx>
KevinSjoberg: you think? :-/
<davidcelis>
atmosx: no
<Spaceghostc2c>
I can see that, but how would you know how good it is?
<tamaska>
atmosx: there need to be better options for urc
<tamaska>
*irc
<davidcelis>
atmosx: Don't write software for other people, write it for yourself
<Spaceghostc2c>
If you have something to measure against, you'll have a better idea.
<davidcelis>
atmosx: Either to learn, or something you personally will use
<atmosx>
tamaska: ah okay, then you build an irc client
<tamaska>
atmosx: i will, :P
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<atmosx>
tamaska: no, I mean I like the mindset
<tamaska>
what do you mean?
<atmosx>
well if you see flaws in your client(s) then you might come with a better one
<atmosx>
otherwise you'll end up writing something that's no use to you or others… and it's good for learning (agreed) but you'll end up leaving it at some point… because of no interest at all.
<atmosx>
Not to mention that it won't attract other users.
<atmosx>
s/users/developers
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Depends, what if you can reuse others code and pull it in and improve while making your own thing?
<atmosx>
yeah that too.
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<atmosx>
that's just my opinion, not a universal truth or something...
<Spaceghostc2c>
What if the developers of weechat never really made such an awesome client? Irssi 'works'.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Or tmux?
<tamaska>
atmosx: i kindof want something like kvirc, but written completely in ruby, with built-in ruby scripting.
<atmosx>
well, I wouldn't miss it because irssi is better
<KevinSjoberg>
My personal opinion is the following. I want to learn and improve as a programmer, to do that I choose a task I find interesting. For me it do not matter if the project at hand exist or not. It's for my personal learning. Later on you can either continue improving your experimental project into something widely useful or just keep it as it is.
<Spaceghostc2c>
atmosx: Not really, but I'm glad you like it.
<atmosx>
BUT, I'm quite sure that they didn't feel good with irssi that's why they mad weechat
<davidcelis>
atmosx: You're too concerned with getting "other users"
<atmosx>
s/mad/made (lazy typing
<davidcelis>
That's not what writing software is about
<Spaceghostc2c>
The splits are way better in weechat.
<atmosx>
davidcelis: maybe
<tamaska>
atmosx: irssi is great, but it's not an optimal solution to the problem.
<Spaceghostc2c>
They don't get 'lost' like irssi's.
<davidcelis>
If you write software just so other people will use it, you're gonna have a bad time
<KevinSjoberg>
Seems like I started a bit of discussion :)
<Spaceghostc2c>
davidcelis: If you write software that doesn't have easter eggs, you'll have a mediocre time.
<davidcelis>
You should want to use it; other people should be a secondary thought
<atmosx>
KevinSjoberg: still, I didn't see anyone joining (in the end of the day...)
<davidcelis>
Spaceghostc2c: ^^vv<><>ba
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<Spaceghostc2c>
davidcelis: Koopa!
<atmosx>
KevinSjoberg: I don't wont to discourage your or something… heh not my intention
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<KevinSjoberg>
atmosx: You don't, it's absolutely fine to have a personal opinion. I wouldn't try to take that away from you.
<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: If it's on github, I'll add it to my watch list for sure.
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<KevinSjoberg>
I get your point, but I think we have different mindsets.
<atmosx>
yeap
<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: I surely would be on GitHub.
<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: You'd make me super happy if you'd consider making a graphical front end to weechat in ruby. :D
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<KevinSjoberg>
Is there any good libraries for GUI-programming in Ruby?
<Spaceghostc2c>
No!
<KevinSjoberg>
I think I remember something like Shoes, but it's a very early stage and I don't have a clue about it's performance.
* atmosx
is listening to Nina Simone - Baltimore, from the album Best Of Nina Simone Vol 1 [4:38 mins] [128 kbps MPEG audio file] [4.36 MB] [played missing value times]
<tamaska>
atmosx, KevinSjoberg: so anyway, it would be nice to have a little help writing a pure-ruby guified client, maybe something with a networked backend like http://www.smuxi.org/page/Features but with an extensible interface like kvirc
<tamaska>
though i dont expect it
* tamaska
shrugs.
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<tamaska>
i'm already working on it
<KevinSjoberg>
tamaska: I think I missed what you discussed earlier. Could you just brief me_
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<atmosx>
I'd like to get involved into a sentiment analysis project, once I finnish my own (the two I'm working on)
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<atmosx>
anyway, good luck KevinSjoberg :-)
<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: nvm.
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<KevinSjoberg>
atmosx: Thanks!
<tamaska>
it's fine. i'll just do it myself. good luck, KevinSjoberg
<KevinSjoberg>
tamaska: Okey, but what did you talk about? I may be more then happy to contribute?
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<atmosx>
KevinSjoberg: scroll up
<atmosx>
[19:23:20] <tamaska> atmosx, KevinSjoberg: so anyway, it would be nice to have a little help writing a pure-ruby guified client, maybe something with a networked backend like http://www.smuxi.org/page/Features but with an extensible interface like kvirc
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<tamaska>
well, i am currently working on an irc client with a network backend like smuxi, but with a gui frontend that is all pure ruby as well, extensible like kvirc. i'm working on it now.
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<KevinSjoberg>
tamaska: Oh I see. What library do you use for the GUI-part? Is it available on GitHub?
<tamaska>
i am not yet working on the gui part, but i'm planning on using WXWidgets
<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: anyway, if Hanmac's project seems to be moving along, i may use that instead, but it'll be a bit, working alone, to get there.
<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: i'm still working on the backend :P
<Spaceghostc2c>
tamaska: That's what he said.
<tamaska>
Spaceghostc2c: i think i'm misunderstanding something. what?
<KevinSjoberg>
tamaska: I understand. It seems like a pretty interesting project to me. The question I keep thinking about is, is it to complex? I want something that's easy enough to complete relatively soon but interesting enough to learn.
<Spaceghostc2c>
tamaska: Just a joke.
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<tamaska>
Spaceghostc2c: oh. lol.
<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: An IRC client wouldn't be a fast thing if you're trying to implement anything near the standards.
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<KevinSjoberg>
I think you have more experience than me regarding the project so what do you think?
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* Hanmac
works currently on an Ogre binding wich is more cool then wx :D
<Spaceghostc2c>
Write an IRC bot first! That's fun and gets you partway there in terms of domain knowledge.
<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: not by much. i'm just slowly working step by step, that's all.
<tamaska>
ogre?
<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: Do note that when I say fast I mean the period of a few weeks of programming. And the IRC client I was thinking of building should not include all available features but those that are being implemented should comply with the standard.
* atmosx
is listening to Nina Simone - Sinnerman, from the album Best Of Nina Simone Vol 2 [10:21 mins] [128 kbps MPEG audio file] [9.71 MB] [played missing value times]
<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: Could be doable.
<tamaska>
Hanmac: oh, i see.
<atmosx>
Oh sinnermaaan what you're gonna dooo
<tamaska>
KevinSjoberg: anyway, i'm just going to go now. i'll see you around i guess.
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<atmosx>
nice part message
<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: I thought so to, I usually have pretty sane ideas. I was thinking at implementing CONNECT, QUIT, JOIN, PART and SAY to begin with.
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<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: I'd still look at the IRC bots to get an idea of the domain.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Unless you're pretty happy with documentation.
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<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: You may be right, the domain as such is totally new for me. I've read through the RFC for IRC(http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/rfc.html) but the documentation isn't as "complete" as I would want it.
<Spaceghostc2c>
There's a project I was working on that my friend and I need to get at.
<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: You wrote the framework or did you use it to create you bot? I would like to get down in the "low level" details in that so I think a framework or DSL isn't optimal.
<KevinSjoberg>
Or did you link it as a reference for inspiration and ideas for own implementation?
<Spaceghostc2c>
Crap, I didn't push.
<Spaceghostc2c>
One sec.
<KevinSjoberg>
Sure
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<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: I have to find the code. We wrote it from plain old ruby. Just stdlib. No framework has emerged, but it works.
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<Spaceghostc2c>
It takes less than 20 lines of code for basics. We're building a base and adding everything as plugins.
<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: Interesting. Tell me when you pushed.
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<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: Stick around on IRC, I have to ask my friend where it is.
<Spaceghostc2c>
brianpWins: Mister sir!
<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: Sure!
<brianpWins>
Morning Spaceghostc2c
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<atmosx>
what is the fastest way of discovering if a hash has a value of argv[2] > 1 in any of its elements?
<Spaceghostc2c>
Writing tests and profiling. :D
<atmosx>
so there's no fast way of doing it...
<Hanmac>
atmosx look at Enumerable#any?
<atmosx>
Hanmac: k
<atmosx>
ah k got it I think
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<KevinSjoberg>
Spaceghostc2c: Found the code yet?
<Spaceghostc2c>
KevinSjoberg: I'll highlight you when she gets online.
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<atmosx>
Enough programming for today
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<atmosx>
I've stuck anyway, I need to get a bite of fresh air
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* atmosx
puts on his Nikes which were made by severelly underpaid little childs in Taiwan while some dickhead chasing a ball gets paid in triple figures in order to promote them featuring totally unreal, utterly idiotic commercials.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Open your window and put those fingers back on the keyboards.
<atmosx>
Spaceghostc2c: hahaha nah :-P I can't continue anyway, I'm stuck and I have the strong feeling that there's a much easier solution to this… I will see my code and laugh tomorrow (probably)
<atmosx>
or maybe in week, but I'll cry instead because I won't know wtf I was thinking
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<nicferrier>
hey people! I am trying to use rvm to manage ruby on my ubuntu... I'm doing rvm --default use 1.9.2 (after installing it) but when I go to a new shell ubuntu still tells me I don't have ruby. what am I doing wrong? any clues?
<ramblex>
nicferrier: have you added anything to your .bashrc?
<nicferrier>
ramblex: no.
<k_89>
add something then :P
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<nicferrier>
ok. I did. started a new shell. still no default ruby
<nicferrier>
I added this: [[ -s "$HOME/.rvm/scripts/rvm" ]] && . "$HOME/.rvm/scripts/rvm" # This loads RVM into a shell session.
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<ramblex>
nicferrier: try `rvm use --default 1.9.2`
<nicferrier>
did that.
<ramblex>
putting the option after the action
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<nicferrier>
paying more attention to the output I see this $ rvm use 1.9.2 --default
<nicferrier>
Using /usr/share/ruby-rvm/gems/ruby-1.9.2-p180
<Spaceghostc2c>
nicferrier: rvm use 1.9.2 --default
<nicferrier>
so ubuntu's package puts it in /usr/share or something?
<Spaceghostc2c>
Ugh, the repo ruby :(
<Spaceghostc2c>
and repo rvm. :(
<k_89>
??
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<nicferrier>
yeah. it just seems broken. it makes all the documentation wrong. is this another example of over enthusiastic package maintainers doing totally the wrong thing?
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<alexch>
Linux distros hate Ruby. You should use plain old rvm and stop the madness. But I dunno if that'll fix your problem.
<ramblex>
nicferrier: what does `which rvm` return?
<nicferrier>
ramblex: /usr/bin/rvm
<nicferrier>
Boohbah: what directions?
<Boohbah>
nicferrier: alexch kindly linked them for you
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<nicferrier>
so don't use apt packages?
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<k_89>
nope
<k_89>
they gave me a lot of pain before i finally was able to start using ruby
<k_89>
few days ago :P
<alexch>
I repeat: Linux distros hate ruby. They want to mess with its directory structure. Using rvm avoids that by putting ruby in your home directory, and has a bonus of allowing you to switch ruby versions at will. And not having to use sudo.
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<alexch>
If someone made an apt-get package for rvm then they were being very silly. rvm *is* a package manager.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Packagemanagerception. :(
<Spaceghostc2c>
npm is installable via deb
<nicferrier>
yeah it doesn't seem that silly to me.
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<Hanmac>
alexch my system ruby is the current newst ruby, so i dont need to play with rvm
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Hanmac: So you're using ruby-head?
<regedarek>
Hello, how will be the best way to get username from email "test@email.com" (I want o to get whole string before @
<Spaceghostc2c>
Or 1.9.3? Are you using your own gemhome or using sudo?
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<regedarek>
regex?
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<Hanmac>
ruby 1.9.3p194, gems are installed with sudo
<Spaceghostc2c>
Meh.
<ramblex>
regedarek: regex or just use split if you're sure it's a valid email
<Spaceghostc2c>
Not too bad. I just prefer to manage my own stuff at user level.
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<Chaazd>
Although this does work and writes to the yaml file, Ruby cannot parse it seemingly because the keys are not indented by 2 spaces. Is there a way I can make it write to the yaml file using the correct indentation? http://pastebin.com/QeWD5RhH
<nicferrier>
thanks guys.
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<regedarek>
ramblex: thx i`ll use split this is rake tast for existing users
<regedarek>
*for
<regedarek>
u.email.split('@').first
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<Spaceghostc2c>
I have to do this, but if you're validating email with a regular expression, you're doing it wrong.
<Hanmac>
Spaceghost2c yeah, and then the rvm users came back because they cant install gems, because they forgot to install -dev packages and are to dumb to google there problem
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Hanmac: Wat, -dev packages of what? The system packages they need?
<Hanmac>
like that "i cant install gems because Zlib is missing"
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Lol.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Yeah, I classify myself as 'not completely fucking retarded, but only mostly.'
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<regedarek>
hmm, is possible to refactor this rake task i want to remove this duplication: User.find_by_username(username) -> https://gist.github.com/3067635
<regedarek>
?
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<matled>
shevy: we talked about ansi escape sequences a month ago!
<shevy>
I collect ready made ansii kickass code
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<shevy>
oh no
<shevy>
ASCII
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<shevy>
should turn that into a gem one day
<shevy>
gem install ascii-table
<shevy>
aaaaah what is this
<shevy>
cool
<shevy>
makes ASCII tables :)
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<patient>
hey guys, i've been learning ruby and using a text editor to do some small programs, but i wanted to do some bigger projects to deepen my knowledge and i was thinking about using an ide, can someone recommend me a nice free one?
<patient>
for what i've read, the best alternative was an old version of netbeans, but i wanted to know your oppinion
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<burgestrand>
patient: I’ve heard people like redcar (http://redcareditor.com/), but most people I know don’t use an IDE at all
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<burgestrand>
textmate/sublimetext/vim/emacs and a terminal is pretty common
<patient>
yeah, i've used redcar before
<patient>
but it feels more like a textmate clone than an ide
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<patient>
i've been using vim + terminal too, i was just wondering what "real ruby programmers"' habits were
<patient>
(and for some occasional debug)
<jlwestsr>
For learning I suggest Aptana or RubyMine. However, using a text editor is your best option I have found. I used those two IDEs and found them to be more cumbersome then helpful.
<learc83>
I've always thought an IDE just got in the way, unless I really need it for something like Java
<burgestrand>
patient: editor+terminal is pretty much the real way. As for debugging pry is popular and most often enough.
<patient>
didn't knew about pry, thanks for the tip
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<learc83>
and for debugging I just usually use puts
<patient>
that's a way too :D
<burgestrand>
I’d call that probing not debugging :p
<patient>
but i wanted something more visual, with easy access to variables, stack trace like i was used in eclipse for java development or visual studio
<learc83>
I use the debugger all of the time when I'm doing embedded stuff with C, but I haven't really felt the need for it with ruby
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<patient>
ok guys, thanks for sharing your experience, guess i'll stick with vim for a while and give pry a go
<atmosx>
gets me every time hahahahahaha awesome hahahaha
<atmosx>
Spaceghostc2c: California?
<patient>
bugs? oh you mean undocummented features
<atmosx>
shevy: so you're gonna be a chemist programmer etc?
<Spaceghostc2c>
Atlanta at the moment.
<atmosx>
Spaceghostc2c: the only thing I know about Atlanta are the "Hawks"
<learc83>
i'm just outside atlanta as well
<shevy>
atmosx: hmm I think so. unfortunately I still suck at math... need to spend boring times in library
<atmosx>
learc83: yes, but we did not ask you. We're not polite to foreigners here
<atmosx>
learc83: j/k
<learc83>
LOL
<atmosx>
shevy: I think it's quite a striking combination
<atmosx>
oooh the love gone baaad, turned my love to blaaaaack
<shevy>
ruby is beautiful
* atmosx
listening Pearl Jam all day long
<atmosx>
true
<atmosx>
and perl sucks big time
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<shevy>
kinda. compared to ruby I think so yes
<shevy>
before ruby perhaps not so much so
<shevy>
it kinda opened the way for the other "scripting" languages
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<obryan>
when I change a array back to a string I get the ['one', 'two'] but is there a simple way to just have it show the items stripped of the padding?
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<shevy>
obryan: not sure what you mean? .join ? [1,2,3].join('_')# => "1_2_3"
<learc83>
do you just want to display it?
<shevy>
or do you mean you want to display the array, without the ' ' separating the fields of the array
<shevy>
not sure how to get rid of that ' '
<obryan>
displaying it
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<obryan>
say i change ['one','two'].to_a
<obryan>
but I want to change it back
<obryan>
so if i display it, it will just show as "onetwo"
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<obryan>
not "['one','two']"
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<shevy>
nono
<obryan>
?
<shevy>
"onetwo" is a string right?
<obryan>
yes
<obryan>
i want to change an array to a string but without the "[" and "]"
<obryan>
also no " in them
<learc83>
loop through it and construct a string
<shevy>
[1,2,3].join(',') # => "1,2,3"
<learc83>
tadah
<shevy>
for a moment I thought you want to change the string "onetwo" to an array
<obryan>
no no
<learc83>
same here
<obryan>
i want to change the array into a string
<richardcreme>
or * instead of join
<obryan>
but my array.to_s puts a [] in the string
<obryan>
also it puts "" around each item
<patient>
override it
<obryan>
how?
<learc83>
if you just do puts on an array without calling .to_s it till only put a newline between each not the array padding
<learc83>
so puts ["one", "two"] will get you
<learc83>
one
<learc83>
tow
<learc83>
that's kinda weird come to think of it
<obryan>
eh
<obryan>
that is problematic for me
<obryan>
what i have is a array that has to be converted to a string for my web form
<patient>
for what i get, he wants the to_s method to return "one two three" instead of "["one", "two"...]"
<shevy>
obryan: well just use the .join method on your array
<obryan>
you got it patient
<shevy>
.to_s is not always that useful
<obryan>
ah
<shevy>
though you can define it if you must.
<ixti>
['one','two'].join(" ") # => "one two"
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<shevy>
I think it is used for .inspect or something like that
<shevy>
like when you do: p some_object
<patient>
can't you use .join instead of to_s?
<patient>
like self.join...
<shevy>
ohhhhh
<shevy>
patient is an IRC nick :)
<shevy>
I wondered why obryan thought someone had to be patient lol
<obryan>
lol i didn't come up with his nick
<patient>
?
<richardcreme>
lol
<obryan>
but that does the trick nicely guys
<obryan>
thanks :)
banseljaj is now known as imami|afk
<obryan>
if only i could for once not be the only ruby advocate in a office full of php guys
<ixti>
rofl
<patient>
i didn't want to say *instead*
<patient>
s/instead/inside of/
<atmosx>
php
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<learc83>
just do what the haskell guy in the python shop did, he renamed all of his haskell files to .py
<patient>
LOL
<obryan>
lol
<ixti>
figured out that i promised to review and fix php code today and immediately a phrase came to my head "i hate myself and want to die"
<obryan>
"Yes but when you convert PHP to Ruby isn't something lost in translation?" "Yes, the headaches."
<patient>
lol
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* ixti
. o O ( why people always want to write XXX like they did it in YYY when XXX and YYY are absolutely different? )
<obryan>
Because people are lazy and afraid of new ideas
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* atmosx
is listening to Oasis - Don't Look Back In Anger, from the album The Acoustic Sessions Vol 1 [3:54 mins] [993 kbps Apple Lossless] [27.87 MB] [played missing value times]
<atmosx>
obryan: do they like wine?
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<obryan>
Ruby is by far my favorite language, it is not the first, second, third or even fifth language I learned
<learc83>
first language for me
<learc83>
but I've changed my style a good bit since learning lisp
<ixti>
I love Ruby. But when I write JS - I don't trying to write it like in Ruby...
<atmosx>
obryan: that's good, you can stay in our channel.
<atmosx>
ixti: you can stay too.
<patient>
sure ixti
<obryan>
obryan.accepted?
<obryan>
hehe
<atmosx>
hahaha yeeeeesss
<atmosx>
true
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<obryan>
Ternary.this.car(around)
<obryan>
hmmm no
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<obryan>
this.car ? around : "Don't make me come back there"
<ixti>
dont_care unless ixti.was_asking?
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<learc83>
anyone else do any of the hackerrank.com challenges?
<obryan>
if by challenge you mean showing up?
<learc83>
I mean the little spacex and candies games
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<learc83>
I seemed to be the only person in the top 10 who wrote a bot in ruby (at least out of people I've talked to in IRC)
<obryan>
well you certainly outrank me then :)
<shevy>
learc83: my first ruby project was a bot too
<obryan>
I'm a sysadmin by trade, all this coding fun is just... fun
<shevy>
since then I broke it though and now it no longer works :(
<learc83>
lol
<learc83>
obryan so do you use ruby for your adminy stuff
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<atmosx>
is this expression invalid? (topno = line[1].to_i && $top_list << line) if topno =< line[1].to_i
<atmosx>
I know for sure I can add the && after the 'if' there… but I'm not sure if I can add it before, I never seen it… it just came out (imagination never hurt)
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<atmosx>
obryan: r you good with FreeBSD?
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<shevy>
still trying to use freebsd?
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<atmosx>
shevy: I'll figure it out… I solved the ports upgrade thing...
<atmosx>
there's a really nice command line tool which tells which ports have security issues and another one which handles automatically the updates...
<atmosx>
if these two work without issues then I'm fine I guess… I'll run a tor server, irc, a couple of ruby scripts… and nginx + uinicorn_rails for an octopress blog, afpd, ftpd and dnsmasq for the local network
<atmosx>
and a couple of others services of course...
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<patient>
wow, pry looks great
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<bradhe>
Trying to write a native extension, and I'm getting: error: no member named 'ptr' in 'struct RString'
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<bradhe>
RSTRING(my_str)->ptr; is the relevant line clang is pointing at
<bradhe>
is there any common issues that might cause this?
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<obryan>
hey sorry i was downstairs answering the door
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<obryan>
lear83: i use ruby for writing nagios stuff and doing capistrano
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<obryan>
atmosx: i use ruby for writing nagios stuff and doing capistrano
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<atmosx>
nice
<obryan>
right now i'm kicking around the idea of a rails site that'd log data sorta like cacti
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<banisterfiend>
obryan: what do u mean by kicking
<obryan>
i am thinking about the idea
<obryan>
sorry, american metaphor
<banisterfiend>
'merica
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<obryan>
like John Chrichton
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