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<vpitriumph>
Hey guys
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<vpitriumph>
This isn't specifically ruby related, but on the command line is there a way to avoid having to escape all the metacharacters in a regex. For example if I wanted to wrap all instances of joe with (joe) using sed. Now to get it to work I have to use \( and \)
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<jrajav>
You could write a regex to replace all the regex metacharacters with escapes
<jrajav>
:3
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<vpitriumph>
:D well that would be one option, but seriously, I feel like in the past I didn't have to escape all my metacharacters. Am I just imagining that?
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<vpitriumph>
okay
<vpitriumph>
so I'm a moron
<vpitriumph>
to answer my own question
<vpitriumph>
set '...' vs sed ... needed to wrap my regex up
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<dsrguru>
does Ruby have a shortcut for a record-like class that just defines accessors and initializes them?
<dsrguru>
or does one have to call attr_accessor and write initialize
<banisterfiend>
dsrguru: u tell me
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<dsrguru>
banisterfiend: I've been looking online to see if there's syntactic sugar but I haven't found it
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<banisterfiend>
dsrguru: alert! alert!
<dsrguru>
banisterfiend: (I'm coming from the LISP mentality that all common things have to be abstracted away)
<dsrguru>
so if Google doesn't have it, there's no DRY option?
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<banisterfiend>
dsrguru: u could build your own method to do it
<banisterfiend>
dsrguru: or maybe there's a gem to do it
<dsrguru>
banisterfiend: but if there's no common way, I'm probably using a less than idiomatic approach
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<bnagy>
I really hate the aws code
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<bnagy>
can you swap it out for s3cmd? At least that works :)
<schleppy1>
I would have done it with Python or Go, but wanted to get my hands wet with Ruby.
<schleppy1>
s/wet/dirty/
<bnagy>
sadly I think you were unlucky in your choice of gem
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<schleppy1>
dear lord, how big is the ruby-1.9.3 tgz?
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<schleppy1>
taking 4-ever!
<schleppy1>
eh, 12 meg, they must be throttling or something.
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<schleppy1>
I have consistent 12mb/s. They must have a dsl connection :D
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<schleppy1>
Will I need to re-install the aws/s3 gem afterward? Like, is it version aware?
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<bnagy>
probably
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<schleppy1>
ok, hopefully last dumb question. I need to re-install aws-s3. How do I update gem to point to the new version?
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<bnagy>
hopefully when you installed ruby it installed a new version of gem
<schleppy1>
ah, right you are
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<schleppy1>
son of a bitch. 1.9.3, and the same freaking errors.
<schleppy1>
oh well.
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<n_blownapart>
hi is it true that Lambdas and Procs are hardly used in most programs and blocks are most common. I don't understand any of them anyhow but I thought I could start there.
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<banisterfiend>
n_blownapart: yeah, lambdas/procs are relatively rare i guess
<banisterfiend>
but you'll probably see them used a couple of times in medium sized apps
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<davidcelis>
they're all Procs
<davidcelis>
ALL OF THEM
<davidcelis>
Procs.
<davidcelis>
even banisterfiend is a Proc.
<davidcelis>
banisterfiend.is_a? Proc # => true
<n_blownapart>
thanks banisterfiend. I thought I understood scope well enough to see how this prog works but if anyone has time to walk me through it I would be grateful: http://pastie.org/4403917
<banisterfiend>
davidcelis: your mom said i was more of a stabby lambda: ->(your_mom) { banisterfiend() }.() #=> true
<n_blownapart>
davidcelis: thats funny !
<davidcelis>
the empty parens...
<davidcelis>
THEY BURN
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<Paradox>
hey banisterfiend
<Paradox>
did you ever update pry to use jist?
<banisterfiend>
Paradox: Yes, 0.9.10 uses it
<Paradox>
yay
<banisterfiend>
yeah it's prtty awesome
<banisterfiend>
in the next release we're migrating to rb-readline too
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<Paradox>
yay
<Paradox>
will that break coolline though?
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<banisterfiend>
Paradox: no, they're mutually excluseive
<Paradox>
cool
<banisterfiend>
Pry.config.input = Readline vs Pry.config.input = Coolline
<Paradox>
ah
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<Paradox>
is there any way i can easily take the output of a method and run it as a gist?
<Paradox>
i tried gist -o
<banisterfiend>
Paradox: run the method then use gist -o
<n_blownapart>
so I should just keep using blocks until understand them. (thanks I'll check it out)
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<banisterfiend>
n_blownapart: it'll take a while to properly grok blocks and know when to use them
<banisterfiend>
at least it did for me, but i came from a C background
<banisterfiend>
whre blocks kind of blew the top off my head
<n_blownapart>
banisterfiend all three types can carry values outside of the scope they were defined in...is that the gist of it?
<banisterfiend>
they're all closures yeah
<banisterfiend>
but if you look closely
<banisterfiend>
you realize that ruby only has one type of closure, not 3
<banisterfiend>
the block
<banisterfiend>
proc { } <------------ 'proc' method that takes a block parameter
<banisterfiend>
lambda { } <-------------- 'lambda' method that takes a block parameter
<banisterfiend>
'block' is the only closure in ruby, in other words
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<n_blownapart>
nice. what does it mean to use the word closure? banisterfiend
<davidcelis>
Proc
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<banisterfiend>
n_blownapart: it just means "carry values outside of the scope they were defined in"
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<n_blownapart>
banisterfiend: do you mean nearly an acronym?
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<banisterfiend>
n_blownapart: no..
<banisterfiend>
wtf
<banisterfiend>
n_blownapart: look up 'closure (computerscience)' in wikipedia
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<n_blownapart>
thanks I did. got hung up on some examples and came running here. more later thanks ! banisterfiend
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<bnagy>
it's a closure because it encloses the state of stuff from where it was defined. It noms memory images 8{} NOM NOM NOM BINDING
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<n_blownapart>
thanks bnagy i'm looking up nom. nubian here.
<bnagy>
nom (n): to eat
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<n_blownapart>
bnagy: sorry no capiche
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<n_blownapart>
bnagy: what does your notation mean 8{} etc ?
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<bnagy>
it looks like Cookie Monster
<bnagy>
that is a closure nomming a snapshot of memory
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<n_blownapart>
bnagy: thanks I will work on that.
<n_blownapart>
bnagy: sorry if I repeat myself, but you are not the guy living in Kathmandu?
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<bnagy>
well I'm one of them
<bnagy>
and I'll admit I may be the only one on this channel
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<n_blownapart>
bnagy: not in a city of women then? that is great ! this is varreli do you remember me? I was going to visit and exchange your ruby lessons for tea.
<n_blownapart>
bnagy: its just confusing me, like blocks do too.
<n_blownapart>
bnagy: but maybe if I read about nomming the snapshot it will come to life.
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<deryl>
Ruby stores its compiler location and flags within itself, correct?
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<vectorshelve>
Hi
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<vectorshelve>
hemanth: hi
<hemanth>
vectorshelve, hey! Howz it going?
<RubyPanther>
ruby 2 wouldn't compile my extension until I switched from ANSI C to C89 (no // comments)
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<vectorshelve>
hemanth: good... how about you ?
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<hemanth>
vectorshelve, not bad
<vectorshelve>
hemanth: :)
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<quazimodo>
guys I've installed the latest grit but require grit doesnt work
<quazimodo>
no so such file to load -- grit (LoadError)
<quazimodo>
ow
<quazimodo>
didnt require rubygems
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<Hanmac>
RubyPanter did you make a isssue ticket or did you ask in #ruby-dev too?
<Hanmac>
i mean RubyPanther
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<RubyPanther>
Naw, I'm assuming they know it and told gcc -ansi -pedantic or something
<Hanmac>
but imo its a bug not a feature
<RubyPanther>
well C99 came after C89 for good reasons IMO ;)
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<RubyPanther>
I guess -ansi -pedantic actually gives ISO C instead of ANSI C since ANSI normally implies C99
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<fowl>
rbenv works better than rvm.
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<RubyPanther>
rbenv += 1
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* Hanmac
uses system ruby and is happy with it
<banisterfiend>
Hanmac: you're a noob.
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<Hanmac>
banister why i need other versions? i do not support versions older then 1.9.1+ :P
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<banisterfiend>
Hanmac: updating to latest patch release, running and experimenting with other implementations (rubinius, jruby)
<Hanmac>
my system ruby has latest patch release, and my gems do not support jruby ... (rubinius may be supported but this is not tested)
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<deryl>
So because thats your choice of way to work with ruby, *everyone* has to follow suit?
<deryl>
ruby would never grow if we followed that pattern
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<banisterfiend>
Hanmad is a really weird guy
<banisterfiend>
Hanmac
<banisterfiend>
But i have a fondness for him
<banisterfiend>
he's a decent programmer and has an original personality
<Hanmac>
deryl so you say i should support jruby with my gems too?
<banisterfiend>
Hanmac: jruby actually has decent support for C exts these days
<banisterfiend>
so long as u dont use private MRI API, it should be ok
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<Hanmac>
does something like rb_ary_new() count as "private MRI API" ?
<deryl>
i say your idea that sticking *only* with system packages and that everyone should be happy with it is screwy. Whether *your* personal gems support anything other than MRI is totally up to you, but I see you consistently seem to think (and advocate) that anyone using anything but system packages is looney toons
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<banisterfiend>
Hanmac: probably not
<deryl>
You, as a person, beyond that I have no issues with so don't take that as me insulting you or thinking you're an idiot or something. Totally not the case. I just don't see eye to eye with you in regards to your thinking about ruby itself
<banisterfiend>
Hanmac: that should be ok
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<banisterfiend>
Hanmac: private API would be like RString structs
<deryl>
(in my case its different. I *am* looney toons hehe)
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<deryl>
hehe yeah. my sister is getting my ASUS Transformer tablet, and I'm replacing it with the iPad. The iPad will also double as my book reader. (I've craploads of books). The iPhone is because I need a phone, and because my brother wants me to figure out writing apps for it. He and several friends do a lot of contract support work for artists (Independent artists not under RIAA control) and wants to look at having a couple apps done.
<banisterfiend>
deryl: android tablets aren't quite there yet IMO
<deryl>
Hanmac: I'm not using jruby. doesn't support most of the Cext gems I use
<banisterfiend>
nextgen will be awesome, jellybean tablets
<banisterfiend>
but current gen kind of sucks
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<deryl>
banisterfiend: i agree mostly with that.
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<deryl>
there are a couple 'ok' apps but not many
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<banisterfiend>
deryl: yeah the main thing jellybean has is project butter
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<banisterfiend>
finally android tablets will have a smooth UI
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<banisterfiend>
they're kind of laggy atm
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<deryl>
ICS isn't all *that* bad.. but definitely not iOS :)
<banisterfiend>
you have ICS on your tablet?
<deryl>
yes
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<banisterfiend>
Hanmac: Hans Mackowiak
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<overclucker>
I want to trash a couple values in an assignment. I want only the first and last elements of an array. here is an example of what I would like to do: first, nil, nil, last = chunk.split
<overclucker>
obviously nil will not take assignemnts, I tried haha. I could use any variable name, I was just hoping there was a /dev/null in ruby. Is there a special variable for this occasion?
<banisterfiend>
overclucker: _
<banisterfiend>
overclucker: or *
<banisterfiend>
overclucker: first, *, last = chunk.split
<workmad3>
zii: because standard organisations are basically acting as a form of endorsement and enforcement of the standard
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<apeiros_>
(asking because of the typo - it's standarD in both, german and english, "eine Standarte" is a flag)
<zii>
apeiros_, No. If I'd know sie is you in german I certainly wouldn't call myself that.
<workmad3>
zii: so you're not paying for the standard, you're paying to make it an ISO standard (the standard part is free... it's just a community standard)
<zii>
apeiros_, Ah, latvian. We've got standart too.
<Spooner>
zii ah yes, there is a standard now. I am behind the times. I'd be surprised if it wasn't based on CRuby and aimed at non-CRuby implementations though, but maybe they finally got it working sensibly.
<zii>
workmad3, Myeah, I know, I know.
<Spooner>
I haven't got standards.
<workmad3>
Spooner: I believe they standardised YARV 1.9.2 :)
<zii>
Does anyone have the standard here?
* Hanmac
is standardless
<Spooner>
YARV 1.9.2? No-one will ever use that as long as 1.6 still works.
<peterhellberg>
Oh, so { :@foo => 'bar' } is ok, but { @foo: 'bar' } isn’t… (Not _that_ surprising though)
<shevy>
hmm
<shevy>
this is a bit ugly
<shevy>
both actually
<peterhellberg>
Absolutely :)
<peterhellberg>
shevy: Very ugly even
<peterhellberg>
shevy: Ok from the point of view of MRI that is, not elegance ;)
<shevy>
yeah. I am trying to remember if I ever saw it in code so far
<shevy>
the { :@foo => 'bar' } variant at least
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<Wizek>
hello
<apeiros_>
zii: where's the problem? that's like the equivalent of 15min of work /me hides
<peterhellberg>
I’m quite happy with the HAL spec and the use of _links and _embedded (Since they are valid Ruby symbol names; { _links: { self: { href: "/foo" } } } )
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<Wizek>
Is there a trivial/one-liner way of getting the binding of the caller?
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<shevy>
Wizek hmm ... caller perhaps... and then ... uhm... erm...
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<peterhellberg>
“One of most useful feature not present in Ruby is to get the binding of the caller of current method, to do something with its local variables.”
<shevy>
hmm
<Spooner>
I'm sort of glad that is unavailable.
<shevy>
why
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<shevy>
it could be an object with instance variables
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<shevy>
well ok
<shevy>
they are local variables... but still
<Spooner>
Because if I should be playing with it, it should be passing itself into me, so to speak.
<shevy>
there is also... $hash.values("foo","bar") I think which gives you the key
<shevy>
the keys
<shevy>
:)
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<shevy>
unless you give only one argument, then it is "the key" again... :P
<shevy>
the english language is more difficult than the ruby language
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<cassianoleal>
haha
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<peterhellberg>
shevy: values_at takes a list of keys and returns their respective values.
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<MarGarina>
Hi, I use Net::HTTP to send simple get requests, but didn't find a generic way to work regardless of whether ssl is on or off
<MarGarina>
(so far I manually use http.set_ssl = true / false, but it can be deduced from the uri...)
<MarGarina>
sorry, I meant use_ssl=true/false
<MarGarina>
any idea how to simply send a request and use ssl only if https?
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<clocKwize>
MarGarina: Use something like Nestful or Httparty
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<clocKwize>
they are more friendly wrappers around Net::HTTP
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<MarGarina>
clocKwize: interesting, will chk, 10x
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<clocKwize>
don't ever (EVER) say 10x instead of thanks. People will stop taking you seriously
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<hoelzro>
I've never seen 10x as a substitute for thanks
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<seanstickle>
10x = thanks?
<seanstickle>
wtf
<clocKwize>
I have, many moons ago
<clocKwize>
when I was about 14
<clocKwize>
on AOL chat
<clocKwize>
even then I thought wtf
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<clocKwize>
MarGarina: See!
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<MarGarina>
clocKwize: sorry man. Thanks :)
<clocKwize>
no problem
<MarGarina>
never seen '10x' in this light.
<MarGarina>
Using it for years.
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<MarGarina>
Ohh maybe that's why people always make this hating face at me.
<elhu>
MarGarina: It actually makes sense if you say it out loud with an Irish accent :P.
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<shevy>
sex
<shevy>
^^^ with irish accent
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<peterhellberg>
MarGarina: I’m pretty happy with both RestClient and Typhoeus, but you can also check if uri.is_a?(URI::HTTPS)
<seanstickle>
Is Typhoeus still maintained?
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<seanstickle>
We looked at it a few months ago and it seemed … well not quite abandoned
<seanstickle>
But not exactly active either
<peterhellberg>
seanstickle: 0.4.1 was released about a month ago
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<seanstickle>
Neato!
<peterhellberg>
And so was 0.4.2 it seems
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<peterhellberg>
I quite like their Hydra concept
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<seanstickle>
As do I.
<seanstickle>
Learned about Typhoeus in that book on building service oriented systems with Ruby
<workmad3>
seanstickle: heh :) same here
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<workmad3>
it was about the only thing I learned from that book :)
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<seanstickle>
I learned a lot from that book.
<seanstickle>
One of the better Ruby books, for sure.
<workmad3>
yeah, it's a pretty well written book
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<workmad3>
and I even recommended it to others as a reasonable intro to SOA
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<workmad3>
just didn't really learn anything new myself from it :)
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<seanstickle>
Gotcha
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<peterhellberg>
I used it in a web based test framework that I wrote for a client last year. (It ran a test suite against external implementations of an API-spec we had provided third party developers)
<workmad3>
seanstickle: it's certainly a lot more approachable and useful than the thomas erl books on SOA...
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<seanstickle>
workmad3: That's like saying a car is a much nicer way to get around town than shooting yourself in the face and having an ambulance drive you.
<seanstickle>
workmad3: which is to say, I agree with you
<fourlastor>
is it better to organize a c-extension into a gem or not? also, is this guide still valid? http://ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/html/ext_ruby.html? (i have the pragmatic programmers guide, and it refers to the online version for c-extensions writing)
<workmad3>
peterhellberg: the gemspec built by bundler is quite a nice balance between hand-modifiable and automated, IMO
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<peterhellberg>
workmad3: Yeah, I wouldn’t use Hoe or Jeweller… but Bundler is ok in my book
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<shevy>
I am going to remember that!
<workmad3>
peterhellberg: yeah, I used jeweller in the past
<shevy>
bundle guys I shall send to peterhellberg :)
<workmad3>
peterhellberg: wouldn't again :)
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<workmad3>
shevy: one day you will take the plunge and learn about these things :P
<shevy>
I really hate bundler though
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<workmad3>
shevy: what contrived reason do you have for this particular hatred? :P
<shevy>
I am going to hold to my script that creates .gemfile for me as long as possible
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<mongrelion>
Hi there o/ I was wondering if there is any specific flag for compiling ruby on a ARM processor. Perhaps an [special] option that I want to include or keep out?
<shevy>
workmad3, reading a ruby on rails tutorial, following the commands there on the official website, seeing how bundler exploded into my face
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<cout>
mongrelion: it doesn't work out of the box? or are you cross-compiling?
<workmad3>
shevy: right... so as usual, nothing rational :P
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<mongrelion>
cout: no, no, I am just on the point of start compiling...
<Muz>
I suppose they don't surface it as available on the rubygems API calls that gem makes.
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<Muz>
s/gem/bundler/ ? *shrugs*
<hoelzro>
rubybundlers?
<hoelzro>
=P
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<bwlang>
are image maps in the same class as "under construction" animated gifs? I would like to provide some context information about certain regions of an image i'm processing… Is there some better way to do that in a browser?
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<seanstickle>
bwlang: yes
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<peterhellberg>
bwlang: yes
<bwlang>
seanstickle: yes they're ultra passé? or yes there is some better way?
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<Muz>
workmad3: oh I'm aware, but the gem was left there to satisfy dependencies. I was just making a small joke on that.
<workmad3>
:)
<bwlang>
seanstickle; hmm - nothing i can encode in the image itself i guess… it's going to be a bit of pain to pass around the positions of the various features. Maybe an svg with some bitmap elements. sound crazy?
<seanstickle>
bwlang: sounds like a lot of work for a clickable image
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<bwlang>
seanstickle: it's actually about 50k images that we're processing and need to display in web context (but maybe somewhere else too)
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<bwlang>
i want a scientist to be able hover over a band in a gel and get some information about what's expected to be there.
<seanstickle>
Why not display it all the time?
<seanstickle>
Why hide it?
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<shevy>
seanstickle what kind of clickable image
<shevy>
something with boobs?
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<seanstickle>
shevy: ask bwlang
<peterhellberg>
bwlang: Do you have an example image online somewhere?
<shevy>
he scares me
<seanstickle>
shevy: biochemistry gels
<shevy>
he is doing something for scientists. that is scary in itself...
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<seanstickle>
shevy: so no boobs
<shevy>
:(
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<bwlang>
peterhellberg: i can toss up an example… - sorry no body parts..
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<peterhellberg>
I would separate the images from the features data (probably delivered as JSON) and then plot the overlays using JavaScript (CoffeeScript in my case)
<JonnieCache>
cek: this new debugger integrates with pry as well
<peterhellberg>
bwlang: Oh, ok. And you want some kind of hover tooltip or similar for each line/column?
<bwlang>
peterhellberg: i can identify the regions of interest pretty reliably now, i just need to hover over the various features to get more information.
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<bwlang>
peterhellberg: yeah - tooltip style...
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<bwlang>
i'd like to do this on the server. rather than encode the regions, but i'll do that if the svg idea doesn't pan out. I like the svg idea because those images could be reused in other contexts without having to interpret the json blob
<seanstickle>
Wow, please tell me the images are higher quality than that
<bwlang>
seanstickle: that's the low res...
<seanstickle>
You don't say
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<bwlang>
seanstickle: they're generated from an signal trace actually - so i can build pretty much any resolution.
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<fearoffish>
TorpedoSkyline: it works with 99% of text mate plugins, so Rubysyntax is easy to get going
<JonnieCache>
TorpedoSkyline: i use it for ruby coding all day every day
<JonnieCache>
well not the weekend
<TorpedoSkyline>
I'm not seeing how you guys are getting it to run right though… =\
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<fearoffish>
in what way?
<codora>
TorpedoSkyline: a mac user? interesting.
<TorpedoSkyline>
codora, that's all I use.
<codora>
TorpedoSkyline: i'm pleased you have the money for that :P
<TorpedoSkyline>
fearoffish, getting it to auto detect Ruby syntax. I might have figured something out.. sec.
* codora
grins.
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<TorpedoSkyline>
codora lol. =P
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<codora>
TorpedoSkyline: so, how are you doing this morning?
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<codora>
i havent woken up all of the way, yet.
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<TorpedoSkyline>
codora, hanging in there. Trying to get my editor(s) to work. =P
<TorpedoSkyline>
How about you?
<codora>
:9
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<codora>
i'm trying to get steam games working over wine
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<TorpedoSkyline>
lol
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<codora>
i recently installed linux mint 13 just for steam games.
<JonnieCache>
TorpedoSkyline: once youve done the syntax thing, make sure you get the package manager
<TorpedoSkyline>
codora, good luck. I never had a good experience with Wine. =P
<JonnieCache>
so you can install stuff like the linter and so on
<TorpedoSkyline>
JonnieCache, I have the package manager.
<TorpedoSkyline>
JonnieCache, I just can't get the syntax thing. =P
<codora>
TorpedoSkyline: steam itself is working fine, and i got various installers working, but nothing really works easily in full screen, and i cant see why not.
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<TorpedoSkyline>
Meh.
<TorpedoSkyline>
I'm probably going to stay with Chocolat.
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<codora>
i cant wait for steam to come out natively for linux. i'm going to buy so many games.
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<TorpedoSkyline>
codora, that's going to push Linux ahead so far.
<TorpedoSkyline>
It'll be AWESOME.
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<codora>
TorpedoSkyline: i know right??
<JonnieCache>
apparently the source engine runs faster under linux than windows
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<JonnieCache>
did you see that article? very cool
<codora>
JonnieCache: i'm not surprised!
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<codora>
i AM pleased to hear it. performance nuts like myself will want to switch to linux for extra performance
<TorpedoSkyline>
codora, (btw, I don't really have a bunch of money for Macs yet. I was given one, and I'm trying to start a business. So a gain for Linux is a gain for me too. ;P)
<sprink_>
games are the only reason I keep windows around
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<TorpedoSkyline>
If this thing dies tomorrow, I'm heading out to get a $350 PC and run Ubuntu on it.
<codora>
TorpedoSkyline: fair enough. sprink_: yeah, me too. i hate windows, but most games only work on it.
<Hanmac>
i dont need to play games anymore ... i have them in my dreams :P
<workmad3>
TorpedoSkyline: heh :) sounds fine... until you realise that then you'll be using Unity
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<TorpedoSkyline>
GAH workmad3, that's true. Is GNOME 2 still around in any fashion?
<codora>
Hanmac: i usually have nightmares. my dreams arent very entertaining.
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<fearoffish>
remember, that just because steam will run on linux, doesn't mean all the games will
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<fearoffish>
e.g. it runs on mac, but there are lots of games that don't run on mac
<codora>
TorpedoSkyline: linux mint maintains a fork of gnome2 called M-something
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<codora>
let me check
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<Hanmac>
codora: some of my dreams are nightmare, others are superhero like ... and the otherother are like RPG :P
<workmad3>
fearoffish: yeah... I was wondering if it would run something like transgamer
<Hanmac>
including HUD, inventary and skilltree :P
<JonnieCache>
xfce ftw
<codora>
MATE
<fearoffish>
hmm, maybe
<TorpedoSkyline>
ok, cool codora
<workmad3>
fearoffish: although that wouldn't let all games run... if they had something like that and then a compatibility rating or similar though, that could be quite cool
<codora>
Hanmac: too much time spent in bad places XD i cant have awesome rpg dreams.
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<catphish_>
there's nothing in the output of ./configure on the subject at all
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<shevy>
could be in config.log
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<shevy>
also, in ext/zlib and ext/openssl, when the makesfiles were generated, you can do "make" and see for the specific error(s)
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<catphish_>
when i run make there's no "Failed to configure openssl. It will not be installed."
<catphish_>
so maybe it is building
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<ozzloy>
crazed, what if i want to put parameters in the url?
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<ozzloy>
crazed, thanks, btw
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<catphish_>
ok... so it turns out i'm just a moron, after installing the libraries i forgot to specify PREFIX= to configure and was testing the wrong version
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<cek>
fuck, it even doesn't catch exceptions.
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<Muz>
cek?
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<shevy>
Muz!
<Muz>
¿shevy?
<davidcelis>
davidcelis!
<shevy>
Did I already mention that I love the fact that you finish sentences with '.' on IRC:)
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<Muz>
No, I don't think you did.
<apeiros_>
shevy otoh finishes his with :)
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<orange_ninja>
q: in IRB, how do you control the formatting of the return values? (for example: in the nokogiri tutorial, the return results of an xpath query have one entry per line)
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<apeiros_>
orange_ninja: irb by default uses the .inspect of the return value
<allsystemsarego>
Hi, I want to use autotest with test-unit. I have app.rb and app_test.rb and launch autotest but it doesn't pick changes up when I save app.rb - I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
<apeiros_>
you can use "; whatever" to temporarily "override" that
<apeiros_>
e.g. `a = [*1..10_000]; 0`
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<apeiros_>
this will return (and thus print) 0, instead of the large array
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<orange_ninja>
apeiros: yeah, but I do want the return values though; just wondering how that return information can be formatted in a way that is easy to read
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<orange_ninja>
apeiros: in the nokogiri tutorials, an xpath query has the results returned (one result per line); whereas when I do the same thing, I get a blob of xml data back (non-formatted)
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<apeiros_>
orange_ninja: as said, irb uses .inspect of the return value. so either change that or change what is last evaluated
<apeiros_>
alternatively you can change the method irb uses
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<apeiros_>
not such a good choice IMO, though
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<apeiros_>
IRB.conf[:INSPECT_MODE] is the relevant setting
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<orange_ninja>
aperios_ : cool ty
<apeiros_>
orange_ninja: use tab completion for nicks
<apeiros_>
less embarrassing :-p
<apeiros_>
(no, my nick has nothing to do with apes…)
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<orange_ninja>
apeiros_ eek ; sry ; thx for the tip :)
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<cek>
so where are all those netbeans ruby module developers that supposed to be "larger number of people working on plugin"?
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<cek>
once funding $$ is gone, work is gone
<cek>
hooray to opensource
* apeiros_
hands cek a hanky
<cek>
just proves how opensource community is incapable when faced with "no money for you" dilemma
<shevy>
cek yeah, same what happened to GNOME3. egoistic devs ignored users, fucked up gnome3, got hired away by companies and worked elsewhere. so now gnome is in a state of shit
<cek>
gnome was shit.
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<cek>
it's a totally different story. I just can't understand why would anyone in his clear mind would spend his valueable time on something for others for free.
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<cek>
people in Africa are starving
<Hanmac>
cek KDE is not soo much better
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<apeiros_>
cek: are you in all seriousness complaining about people who actually do provide their work for free?
<bricker88>
Hi - What is the best (i.e. "correct") way to make the options here available to the instance methods? Set attr_accessor, or mattr_accessor? Or something else? https://gist.github.com/3287624
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<Hanmac>
bricker88 i think you should ask in #rubyonrails
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<Hanmac>
because ActiveRecord is a spawn of it
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<bricker88>
Hanmac: I know, I usually ask there first if the question involves AR, but I find that room to be full of a lot of people who don't really know Ruby - understandable but questions like this never get answered.
<bricker88>
Hanmac: Anyways, I just decided to break each method into its own module and include the methods conditionally, so that works for me for now
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<Hanmac>
yeah one of the ruby princibles ... RinR - "Ruby is not Rails"
<Hanmac>
;P
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<shevy>
cek you want ruby projects to be closed source and sell-only???
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<cek>
shevy, i'm sure that would bring a *working* debugger then
<cek>
i don't mind paying $10, and so do you
<shevy>
you define my opinion now?
<cek>
yes, I was promoted as your representative
<Hanmac>
cek & shevy is closed source ruby even possible? ... i thought only as c-ext
<shevy>
you live in turkiye don't you cek?
<Hanmac>
shevy better than in a turkey :P
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<cek>
I live directly at Iran nuclear facility
<shevy>
Hanmac I find it better to try to be as close to the original sound as possible... i.e. "Beijing" rather than "Peking"
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<cek>
shevy, aren't you a russian spy somehow?
<shevy>
or Suomi rather than Finland
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<shevy>
cek I like you, but you need to stop using ruby
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<shevy>
you won't make a million dollar that way cek
<cek>
do you think long term ruby use causes brain cell damage?
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<Muz>
It's safe to say that from your ramblings, /something/ causes braincell damage.
<cek>
well at least that's not piles like in case of objective C usage
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<shevy>
cek did you even write any ruby code at all?
<shevy>
to have to use "netbeans" for ruby code ...
<cek>
no, i'm top manager in indian firm, i only read ruby code, not write it
<cek>
neabeans had slick debugging feature, and overall the design of IDE was almost perfect
<cek>
then, rubymine came with their russian low prices and historically good coders skillset
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<cek>
neabeans was also totally good for jruby guys, who, I think, hate anything else
<cek>
in IDE terms
<Muz>
They hate everything else. Including themselves.
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<shevy>
who'd have known that folks not writing ruby hang out on #ruby
<shevy>
must be because of the free beer
<shevy>
oh wait
<shevy>
PAID beer ...
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<matti>
shevy
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<sahilsk>
Hi, i'm trying to install ruby on my vps but fail. It says "cc1: out of memory allocating 3475308 bytes after a total of 16506880 bytes
<sahilsk>
make[2]: *** [ripper.o] Error 1
<sahilsk>
.. error
<sahilsk>
I tried increasing memory by ulimit -d/m/v to unllimited bu still no luck
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<cek>
sahilsk, talk to your VPS provider about RAM increase
<sahilsk>
how can i install ruby?
<cek>
or add swap
<Guest83725>
sahilsk: your vps needs more ram
<cek>
shevy, who would knew that 1.9.2 won't work with rubygems 1.4.2, which in turn is needed to run rails 2.3.2
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<sahilsk>
cek: Guest i agree. but is there any other way to get around ?
<Guest83725>
sahilsk: install ruby through your package manager
<cek>
sahilsk, yes, by installing binary package
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<sahilsk>
cek yes.. i'm looking for it
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<shevy>
cek you don't use ruby
<shevy>
heya matti
<shevy>
sahilsk, and you can install smaller programs?
<sahilsk>
shevy: yes, i just finished installing and compiling curl
<sahilsk>
*libcurl
<shevy>
hmm ok so you can install things
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<sahilsk>
any idea where will i find binaries. I don't see anything near to it on ruby official site
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<Hanmac>
sahilsk Guest says from your package manager
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<shevy>
sahilsk what does your provider use?
<sahilsk>
Hanmac: i've rvmm installed.
<shevy>
what is a rvmm
<sahilsk>
rvm
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<sahilsk>
ruby version manager.
<Hanmac>
sahilsk thats the wrong way when you have to few ram
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<sahilsk>
then?
<lectrick>
Is there some sort of ampersand symbol shortcut for .each{|f| method(f)} ?
<shevy>
sahilsk so you dont compile directly? you compile via rvm?
<shevy>
sahilsk you confuse me... you compile 1.8.x and now you want to use 1.9.3 makefile ??????
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<sahilsk>
sorry about that . Actually, i don't know where to find ruby 1.8.7's ext
<sahilsk>
but since i've 1.9.x tar file with me. i can easily find its ext folder and can do make shake
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<Hanmac>
shevy i think the is eigher a noob, or a troll, or an expert that is send to us, to test us
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<sahilsk>
Hanmac: nice one..
<Spooner>
Hanmac : Or all three :)
<sahilsk>
but am here after trolling on google/yahoo and M$ crap called bing
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<shevy>
sahilsk, nah, if you have the source, .tar.bz2 and extract it
<shevy>
then you will have the ext/ subdirectory
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<shevy>
I am not sure how you compile... RVM may be different. No idea. I always use the source directly.
<sahilsk>
shevy i used rvm , dear
<shevy>
yeah
<shevy>
it makes people dumber :)
<sahilsk>
shevy ..nevermind.. i'll look into that. Thanks for the immense contribution.
<shevy>
it must extract it somewhere too, though
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<shevy>
bit odd that you have the ext/ folder for 1.9.x but not for 1.8 ...
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<david_julia>
Hi I was hoping for some advice on how to structure an order history model that keeps track of what user modified certain things about an order when its status changes from pending to confirmed, to shipped to received
<Muz>
_ikke_: if you run `gem list -l` what do you get?
<Muz>
Seems to suggest you don't have all the necessary rspec gems installed.
<Muz>
(Run that from the same terminal as the one that you got that error in)
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<_ikke_>
hmm, empty list
<blazes816>
david_julia: you could create something like OrderChange (order_id, user_id, field, from, to). then do like OrderChange.create :order_id => 1, :user_id => 2, :field => 'status', :from => 'pending', :to => 'confirmed'
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<blazes816>
Or make the Order itself simply a composite of a series of OrderChanges stacked on top of an InitialOrder
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<blazes816>
probably more work than it's worth for this
<_ikke_>
Muz: But when install rspec with gem install rspec, it does install the dependencies
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<blazes816>
but we do a similar thing to store documents and their changes
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<Muz>
_ikke_: are you using rvm or similar? It may be that the terminal you were running rspec in hadn't loaded rvm, and you had installed rspec in a different terminal that had.
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<_ikke_>
Muz: I have just removed rvm
<_ikke_>
installed it in a new terminal
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<_ikke_>
closed and reoped a terminal
<_ikke_>
all the same error
<_ikke_>
(it = rspec)
<Muz>
Re-install rspec in the same terminal as the one you're running rspec from?
<_ikke_>
Muz: done that
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<odigity>
can't figure out how to dynamically generate a class, and access a variable inside the class that was originally passed in to the method that generated the class
<odigity>
instead I get this: undefined local variable or method `klass' for StringArray:Class (NameError)
<Mon_Ouie>
Use define_method, not def
<Mon_Ouie>
def-defined methods don't have access to local variables
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<odigity>
oh. never used define_method before, I'll go look it up. thanks for the tip
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<odigity>
is there a define_class_method?
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<banisterfiend>
define_singleton_method
<e___>
botnet anyone?
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<odigity>
woohoo!
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<_ikke_>
Muz: /home/ikke/.gem/ruby/1.9.1/bin is in my PATH, is that ok?
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<Muz>
_ikke_: well, it wouldn't find rspec otherwise. :)
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<_ikke_>
ok
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<_ikke_>
But I wonder why it can't find the dependencies
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<Muz>
Is the test suite you're trying to run, one you've just written, or one you've cloned from elsewhere?
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<_ikke_>
Muz: The latter
<Muz>
If it's the latter, does it come with any hint as to what version of Ruby, and what version libraries to use? Biggest giveaway would be the presence of a Gemfile.
<_ikke_>
there is
<Muz>
Ah, in that case, you want to install deps by running `bundle install`
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<_ikke_>
well
<Muz>
If bundle isn't found, then install it first, gem install bundler
<_ikke_>
a valid.gemspec
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<Muz>
They may well expect you to run rspec via Rake, which in turn munges other crap into the runtime stuff...
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<_ikke_>
Muz: The author said just to run rspec
<_ikke_>
And bundler doesn't run either
<_ikke_>
So I guess something in my setup is screwed
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<_ikke_>
gem list doesn't show any gems installed :S
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<Muz>
Something is totally boned with your rvm installation methinks.
<_ikke_>
Muz: Well, I have uninstalled rvm (rvm implode)
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<asteve>
i need a robots.txt parser, can anyone recommend one for finding the sitemap?
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<davidcelis>
_ikke_: Nice
<davidcelis>
_ikke_: now install rbenv
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<tastycakeman1>
can someone help me make a screen scraper with hpricot?
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<davidcelis>
tastycakeman1: might want to check out Mechanize for that instead
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<tastycakeman1>
i thought mechanize is for going in and out
<davidcelis>
tastycakeman1: For one, hpricot development has ceased
<tastycakeman1>
:(
<tastycakeman1>
aww shucks
<jrajav>
Sorry guys
<jrajav>
Bot still won't be back today
<davidcelis>
tastycakeman1: "going in and out"?
<jrajav>
Soon I promise
<jrajav>
But for now, bai
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<tastycakeman1>
is mechanize to be used with nokogiri?
<davidcelis>
tastycakeman1: Nokogiri is a dependency of Mechanize. It handles the parsing and any Mechanize page object is a Nokogiri document
<tastycakeman1>
oh got it
<davidcelis>
tastycakeman1: Mechanize specifically wraps it in a navigational tool that handles links nicely (and making them clickable by your script)
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<davidcelis>
as well as providing other niceties
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<tastycakeman1>
ok i will take a look at some mechanize things first and then come back
<tastycakeman1>
thanks
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<_ikke_>
If I look in .gems/ruby/1.9.1/{bin,gems} I see everything installed, but gem doesn't seem to see any gems installed
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<_ikke_>
Can I just remove the ~/.gem directory?
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<_ikke_>
I have two directories
<davidcelis>
yes
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<_ikke_>
~/.gem/ruby/1.9.1 and /usr/lib/ruby/1.9.1
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<odigity>
how can I convert a hash to a new hash inline? with an array, I use map, but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for hashes
<odigity>
like if you want to wrap all the values in the hash with decorator classes
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<davidcelis>
odigity: hash.inject({}) { |h,(k,v)| # do some shit here }
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<odigity>
specifically what I'm trying to do (in one line) is instantiated a new object of a class derived from hash, and populate it with key/values pairs from a hash given to me, but only after I've wrapped each value in a decorator
<tastycakeman1>
and i am trying to use mechanize/nokogiri
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<tastycakeman1>
i can do the page = agent.get("url"), but it produces a xml output?
<banisterfiend>
jdiez: search yourself :P google for 'whys poignant guide to ruby'
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<jdiez>
okay, I'm reading poignant guide to ruby but it assumes I'm an idiot
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<jdiez>
You could say a symbol is a bit easier on the computer. It’s like an antacid. The colon indicates the bubbles trickling up from your computer’s stomach as it digests the symbol. Ah. Sweet, sweet relief.
<jdiez>
why can't it explain to me why a symbol is "easier on the computer" than a string?
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<blazes816>
jdiez: everytime you create a string, it's put in memory
<blazes816>
so say a character takes 2 bytes, and you create a string @myvar = "foo"
<blazes816>
that takes 6 bytes
<blazes816>
(aside from ruby overhead and junk)
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<blazes816>
if you do @myothervar = "foo", there's another 6 bytes
<blazes816>
and if you keep doing it, it keeps taking another 6 bytes
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<eam>
hm why would a character take two bytes
<blazes816>
@myvar = :foo, a symbol is only stored once
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<jdiez>
hm, okay, I see, python doesn't work that way
<eam>
jdiez: python does work that way
<blazes816>
eam: given a hypothetical 2 byte encoding
<jdiez>
myvar = "foo" and myothervar = "foo" doesn't take 6 bytes in memory
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<eam>
blazes816: yeah I was just wondering if you were a weirdo windows user -- who uses 2 byte encodings? :)
<blazes816>
jdiez: not exactly, 6 bytes. you can't easily measure it like you could with a C program. but the point is it takes more memory
<eam>
jdiez: sure it does
<jdiez>
hang on, but really, it doesn't
<banisterfiend>
jdiez: buy a book
<blazes816>
jdiez: in python, a = "foo"; b = "foo" takes more memory than a = "foo"
<banisterfiend>
jdiez: get the book 'the ruby programming language'
<banisterfiend>
jdiez: and sit down and read it :)
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<eam>
jdiez: it does. You are creating two strings
<banisterfiend>
jdiez: rather than scrounging together knowledge from various internet tutorials and irc channels
<jdiez>
blazes816, yes, but less than if it would store 6 bytes
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<jdiez>
hang on guys, I'm trying to find a post
<jdiez>
it explains that python assigns "labels" to objects
<apeiros_>
doesn't java use utf-16 pervasively too?
<jdiez>
see? it really doesn't create two equal strings
<apeiros_>
or is that a thing of the past?
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<blazes816>
jdiez: strings and integers work differently; integers are essentially immutable singletons
<blazes816>
jdiez: now, I believe in ruby if you dup a string, it will just use a pointer to the same string until it's mutated, but I could be smoking crack
<blazes816>
i think I read that somewhere though
<jdiez>
yes, that's what I think python does
<jdiez>
exactly
<eam>
jdiez: various implementations may do many different things under the hood, but that's not really relevant
<eam>
the reason you want to use symbols instead of strings is that a symbol is essentially an enumerated type
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<david_julia>
Hey guys, I'm trying to get this existing rails project up and running, but some of the rspec tests (which I'm told pass on the other guys' development machines) are failing with the error "ActionView::Template::Error: No route matches {}"
<david_julia>
I'm not quite sure why this is happening… if anyone could provide some insight I'd be super happy!
<shevy>
david_julia hmm the rails guys are on #rubyonrails
<shevy>
most folks here are rails-incompetent
<david_julia>
ahh thanks for the tip :)
<shevy>
I for instance could not help, because I dont know rails... but it's on my todo list (some day hehe)
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<Muz>
See Rubyforge and the my_page.links code block.
<Muz>
Should be enough to figure it out.
<Muz>
Hint: Calling .href on a link will give you the href property if that's what you wanted.
<tastycakeman1>
ok, i am still confused but going back to the documentation!
<Muz>
tastycakeman1: at the very least, try writing some code. If it doesn't work, paste what you wrote onto pastie.org and we can take a look.
<Muz>
We can give you pointers, but we're not here to do your legwork. :)
<tastycakeman1>
i tried playing with some examples in irb, but i am confused what is nokogiri and what is mechanize
<Muz>
You'll learn quicker, and more, by trying. It's not like playing about is going to blow up your computer or worse...
<Muz>
Mechanize is the HTTP client, it does HTTP requests and returns the response etc.
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<Muz>
Nokogiri is a class that can parse HTML or XML items, and provide easy and neat accessors to items in the data.
<shevy>
tastycakeman1 it's XML parsing crap
<Muz>
So, you could fetch a page with Mechanize, and pass the returned HTML into Nokogiri and play about with it there.
<shevy>
tastycakeman1 I recommend to you to not waste your time with anything XML related
<tastycakeman1>
so the parsing bits i should be using nokogiri?
<tastycakeman1>
yeah thats waht i was confused about
<tastycakeman1>
and reading up on nokogiri
<Muz>
tastycakeman1: you can do. It's just a bit more heavyweight that the HTML parsing that Mechanize revveals to you.
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<Muz>
By the sounds of it, you don't need Nokogiri for this task, it's just needlessly complex given Mechanize does exactly what you described you wanted.
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<tastycakeman1>
ok, mechanize should be enough then
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<Muz>
Yup.
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<tastycakeman1>
wait, so nokogiri is a class in mechanize?
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<Muz>
It's an entirely seperate gem.
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<Muz>
Mechanize depends on it, because it uses it for HTML parsing iirc.
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<tastycakeman1>
but i can do parsing without requiring nokogiri
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<Muz>
So, Mechanize fetches the page, parses the HTML returned with Nokogiri, and creaes Mechanize::Page items etc with accessors that Mechanize provides
<tastycakeman1>
oh man, ok im going to stop asking questions...
<Muz>
Going back to Nokogiri lets you do things beyond the basic stufff Nokogiri surfaces
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<Majost>
when raising an exception, can I used the printf notation to insert values of variables into the printed message?
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<shevy>
Majost yes
<tastycakeman1>
how does mechanize tell the mechanize::page items apart?
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<shevy>
Majost you must use formatting rules. example: sprintf("%1$*2$s %2$d %1$s", "hello", 8) # => " hello 8 hello"
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<meoblast001>
hi. i have a question that hopefully doesn't create some kind of flame war.. i've started learning Ruby recently, and i've noticed, like Python, it has a language-wide "standard"/"guideline" for all projects following this standard
<meoblast001>
i come from a background of doing C/C++/Java and i've always just used project-wide standards.. my own standards for my own projects, and if i join someone else's project, i conform to their standards
<meoblast001>
in Python i've done the same (i ignored the Python language guidelines and adopted my own), but as i've payed attention to a lot of the Ruby community, if you don't follow the language-wide guidelines, you're treated as an outcast and are generally shunned
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<meoblast001>
my point exactly
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<meoblast001>
anyways. how strong is this attitude really among the Ruby community? do developers avoid projects that do not follow the language-wide standards? is it something i should really worry much about?
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<havenn>
meoblast001: I highly recommend following conventions such as soft-tabs with a two-space indent. Whether or not you use an explicit return or avoid parens on methods is more of a trifle.
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<meoblast001>
havenn: what primary benefit is there in adopting a language-wide standard instead of a per-project standard?
<meoblast001>
many editors now have ways to customize standards per-project
<havenn>
meoblast001: It is an aesthetic agreement amongst Rubyists. Single-spaced or eight-spaced code is just visually offensive.
<havenn>
meoblast001: Most editors will 2-space Ruby out of the box.
<meoblast001>
hm. and for the HTML and Javascript in my project?
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<meoblast001>
and hypothetically speaking, what if i also included a language with another language-wide standard?
<meoblast001>
would i then implement multiple coding standards within my own project? one for each language?
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<meoblast001>
(side note: 1-space nad 8-space are not a problem for my previous standard. i used tabs. they grow as large as i want them to)
<havenn>
meoblast001: For languages with a convention of its own, I'd always defer to that. When there isn't a strong convention, like with HTML or CoffeeScript IMHO, I go with 2-spaces.
<havenn>
For a language with**
<havenn>
meoblast001: Rubyists are much more likely to use a text editor rather than a full-fledged IDE.
<meoblast001>
i don't use a full-fledged IDE, but my text editor has at least a few "project"-like capabilities
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<meoblast001>
anyways.. this is where things get interesting... historically i've used tabs, and now i'd be adopting spaces. tabs and spaces in one project? that sounds like a disaster
<havenn>
meoblast001: Text editors treat tabs so wildly differently that Matz went with spaces not tabs.
<havenn>
meoblast001: I've got my editor set to save tabs as spaces.
<meoblast001>
yeah, so that returns to my point... having tabs and spaces in one project sounds like a disaster
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<havenn>
meoblast001: never use tabs, problem solved ;)
<meoblast001>
i actually think that might be a solution
<meoblast001>
in a hopefully-not-insulting way... space users seem more militant and less willing to conform
<meoblast001>
so if i use spaces, i can get tab users to conform and not frustrate space users
<havenn>
meoblast001: in Sublime Text 2 I set: "translate_tabs_to_spaces": true,
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<meoblast001>
i've always followed "tabs from the beginning of the line up. spaces after non-whitespace characters".. which i guess makes things interesting
<havenn>
meoblast001: Yeah, the purists love those spaces. Militantly sometimes.
<meoblast001>
ok, since i'm in a room of all spacists, talk me out of using tabs going forward
<havenn>
meoblast001: I use tabs, knowing they are actually two-spaces.
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<meoblast001>
only 2 reasons i use tabs are because text editors give you flexibility over their size, and all text editors treat them as a single whitespace character, not multiple
<havenn>
meoblast001: Tabs are an unnecessary headache. NEVER do I lament having my 'tabs' *really* be two-spaces.
<meoblast001>
i do in Python
<meoblast001>
Python standards are 4 spaces. but _some_ Python code is unreadable if it's not 8
<jrajav>
Tabs have never cause a headache for me
<meoblast001>
jrajav: you use tabs in Ruby? or only when in other languages?
<jrajav>
All?
<jrajav>
I've used tabs for pretty much ever, w/ tabwidth 4
<havenn>
meoblast001: Yet Google uses 2-spaces in Python. =)
<meoblast001>
jrajav: ooh, so you have it save to 4 spaces in the file, and load to tabs in your editor?
<jrajav>
No -_-
<jrajav>
I would have said that if I meant it
<meoblast001>
ooh. nevermind then. i was misinterpreting.
<meoblast001>
so using tabs in Ruby... no one has tried to injure and/or isolate your projects yet?
<jrajav>
I meant that, if an editor allows me to set the tab width, and most do, I set it to 4
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<jrajav>
That configurability is also the main reason I see tabs as preferrable to spaces
<meoblast001>
agreed
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<jrajav>
You can have consistency and good version control, and everyone can have their own preferences too
<jrajav>
Some people like 2-space tabwidths, I think those are bloody insane
<havenn>
jrajav: Good point. I set it to 2, so your tabs don't look fine to me. >.>
<drockna>
I there a way to do Dynamic Mix-ins?
<jrajav>
I also think 8 is a bit much
<meoblast001>
some how i feel like i've started a flame war
<jrajav>
I'm not flaming anyone :)
<jrajav>
What are the main advantages people see to using spaces over tabs?
<meoblast001>
although i feel the need to respond to havenn's statement saying that i only use tabs up to the first non-whitespace character
<meoblast001>
that's my solution to the problem
<lectrick>
I have two model class definitions that depend on each other. I am trying to unit-test them but if I require one it throws an error because the other is not defined yet. How the fuck do I untangle this mess?
<meoblast001>
when you need things to "look right", i simply tab up to the current indentation, then use space to finish the job
<jrajav>
meoblast001: Are you talking about splitting things like multiple string literals and method calls over multiple lines?
<Spooner>
meoblast001 : Which then means the viewer _has_ to have the same tab-space view as you did or it will be messed up. I thought the point was that hard tabs were always ace?
<meoblast001>
hm.. method calls, yes.. multiple string literals... sort of
<jrajav>
You should always space things that depend on spacing with spaces
<jrajav>
I thought that was common sense :P
<jrajav>
Tabs vs. spaces debate is just for normal block indentation.. or so I thought
<havenn>
Whitespace is neither 'white' nor 'space', discuss...
<meoblast001>
havenn: lol
<jrajav>
Let's discuss the proper indentation style for Brainfuck
<meoblast001>
jrajav: yeah. i tend to not debate about tabs/spaces. i take the conformist "You start the project, you choose. You didn't start the project, you STFU" approach
<jrajav>
Oh of course
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<jrajav>
Consistency trumps any style debate
<jrajav>
ANY
<meoblast001>
but the main reason i'm asking is to figure out what reprocusions i could have for starting a project in Ruby with tabs
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<meoblast001>
i don't want to isolate myself and my projects from the world simply because everyone hates tabs
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<bricker88>
is there any convention for naming private methods? I know a lot of languages like to start private method names with an underscore
<eam>
meoblast001: out of curiosity, why do you use tabs?
<eam>
I understand the reason behind using spaces, but not so much with tabs
<banisterfiend>
bricker88: none
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<jrajav>
eam: I already listed a few....
<eam>
sorry, re-reading scrollback
<jrajav>
And no one answered when I asked why people use tabs
<jrajav>
*spaces
<jrajav>
>_>
<eam>
oh, configurability?
<jrajav>
And consistency
<jrajav>
Well, simpler consistency
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<bricker88>
banisterfiend: Is it meant to signify anything when a method does start with an underscore?
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<eam>
jrajav: I use spaces because the indent level of the code is important. I need it to not change
<meoblast001>
eam: reasons for tabs: customizable tab length to suit each programmer's preference, each tab character is treated as one character; reasons for spaces: not all text editors see tabs the same way
<lectrick>
The reason why people uses spaces and not tabs is pure consistency with what has become prevailing practice. I don't think Ruby gives a shit, but your fellow coders will. << jrajav
<jrajav>
eam: But it's only important to you, right?
<eam>
and because tab boundaries aren't always where code needs to be indented (eg, matching paren boundaries after an identifier)
<banisterfiend>
bricker88: sometimes ruby methods are like this: __my_method__
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<banisterfiend>
bricker88: it's either ruby itself trying to hide very important methods
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<eam>
jrajav: well I require all my engineers to adhere to my coding standards
<banisterfiend>
bricker88: or it's people indciating to the user that the method is somewhat critical and a deep implementation detail
<bricker88>
banisterfiend: Got it. Thanks!
<banisterfiend>
often you see __my_method__ methods in included modules
<eam>
I find most tab users tend to mix tabs and spaces, which never ends well
<jrajav>
eam: Got it. Fair enough
<eam>
because when the tab-stop changes, the space indention is then wrong
<lectrick>
jrajav: I would have preferred tabs, since they are more storage-efficient, but consensus has become "two spaces per indent" for much of ruby code
<eam>
and if you don't change the tab-stop then there's no reason to use tabs in the first place :)
<meoblast001>
well. could an open source ruby project suffer because it uses tabs more than an open source project in, say, C++ because it uses tabs?
<jrajav>
For what it's worth, I would *always* prefer a consistent standard in a project, regardless of what that standard is, over having my own way and everyone else having theirs too
<jrajav>
That goes for whether I'm leading it or just joining it
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<lectrick>
jrajav: Quick! Look at the space in a file and tell me whether it's tab or space characters! (does that help answer your question? lol)
<eam>
I probalby won't work on a project if they mix tabs and spaces :)
<meoblast001>
jrajav: i agree
<jrajav>
lectrick: I don't see how that's important in the slightest
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<meoblast001>
jrajav: at my job we have no standard.... it gets ugly sometimes
<jrajav>
lectrick: Also, two spaces per indent is a great argument to me FOR using tabs
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<eam>
meoblast001: put in an SCM hook to reject commits that don't pass coding standards
<lectrick>
jrajav: it's important if you're trying to align things with what most editors provide such as command-] and it chokes because some of the lines used tabs and others used spaces
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<eam>
lectrick: also block-indent during refactoring
<meoblast001>
eam: well, i'm mainly referring to people rejecting the project
<lectrick>
jrajav: paste some code that uses spaces to indent into code that uses tabs to indent.... and have fun pulling your hair out because we are OCD
<jrajav>
lectrick: So what you're really saying is a problem is that some coders use tabs and some use spaces
<havenn>
I mostly agree with Github's style guides. I don't understand why they don't have a line following 'private', but otherwise I think they pretty much got it right.
<jrajav>
Still not an argument that everyone should use spaces
<eam>
meoblast001: since you're asking for anecdotes, I would be inclined to reject
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<lectrick>
jrajav: Yes. I'm saying tabs would be perfectly fine... if everyone used tabs consistently. But the consensus has spoken already, and it's spaces. You missed the window to make that argument, basically.
<jrajav>
lectrick: By the way, I'm pretty sure I've done exactly that operation in both Sublime and Eclipse and they've both handled it fine
<meoblast001>
eam: so i'm best off with spaces then?
<eam>
meoblast001: in my opinion, yes
<havenn>
^
<lectrick>
jrajav: Not everyone uses Sublime, or Eclipse, or Vim, or Textmate, or Emacs, or....
<eam>
I've never seen a tab-user who didn't mix spaces at the end to fix indention against things like foo(
<meoblast001>
hm. and then for the Javascript/HTML/etc, i should use spaces too?
<jrajav>
eam: That's what you SHOULD do
<eam>
and when that's done it negates any benefit of tabs (you can't change their stop)
<meoblast001>
and hell.. i guess in this case i might as well start using spaces in C/C++/Java
<lectrick>
jrajav: Every editor handles spaces fine though. Terminal editors to GUI editors, I heard even WINDOWS handles spaces fine.
<havenn>
tab users often seem more likely to leave trailing whitespace as well >.>
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<jrajav>
eam: See my comment earlier about using spaces where the spacing actually matters
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<eam>
jrajav: right but, do you see what happens when you do that and the tab stop changes?
<jrajav>
eam: … Things stay the way they should be?
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<jrajav>
eam: The idea is that before putting the spaces in to align the continuation line, you first tab out to the current indentation
<lectrick>
jrajav: You can't save a tab-stop setting to a text file.
<jrajav>
You don't need to
<jrajav>
lectrick: Also, yes you can in vim ;)
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<meoblast001>
havenn: i hate trailing whitespace :<
<eam>
jrajav: I think it falls down when you have indention other than purely leading indention
<lectrick>
Most editors will let you configure the tab key to just type two (or one, or more) spaces. So you can keep your muscle memory :)
<jrajav>
lectrick: And every editor handles spaces fine, but I would say that every editor handles tabs even better
<fowl>
>> %%%%%%%
<jrajav>
eam: And I disagree.
<eam>
jrajav: well, do you use tabs after identifiers as well?
<meoblast001>
eam: and that's where my standard saves the say, woo
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<meoblast001>
day*
<jrajav>
I don't think I would ever use a tab after the intial indentation on a line, no
<meoblast001>
but still.. i'm just confused
<lectrick>
meoblast001: I have "remove trailing whitespace on save" on in Sublime, but it sure results in crappy git commits if not everyone had that set from the get-go
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<meoblast001>
lectrick: heh. i agree. i have it set like that for projects i started (and enforce this policy with an iron fist). but at work i do not
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<lectrick>
Our team is actually considering a giant trailing whitespace removal across the entire codebase as a single commit
<eam>
when I managed a large perl project I used an scm commit hook to perltidy all code upon commit with standard style
<meoblast001>
heh
<meoblast001>
i still feel just as confused as when i joined this channel
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<lectrick>
eam: that's kind of dictatorlike lol
<eam>
and run whatever language appropriate version of lint exists
<meoblast001>
and as a person with anxiety issues and trouble making simple decisions with no obvious correct path....
<jrajav>
lectrick: It doesn't really matter if you lump it all in as a single commit; the real problem is that that marks a giant glitch in diffs that cross that commit's "boundary"
<bricker88>
How are private and protected methods different if a child class can access its parent class's private methods? https://gist.github.com/3290538 Is it *just* sibling class access?
<jrajav>
lectrick: Cluttering them up hopelessly forever
<fowl>
>> exit
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<eam>
lectrick: the innocent have nothing to fear ...
<jrajav>
lectrick: The main problem with any programmatic style change :/
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<lectrick>
jrajav: yeah, i was afraid of that fallout too
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<ryansobol>
can anyone tell me what kind of string "%016x" is in ruby? v1.8.7 if it matters
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<fowl>
rstring?
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<meoblast001>
jrajav: so you have used tabs in team projects in ruby and have not experienced any serious problems?
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<jrajav>
I haven't had the pleasure of working on any team projects in Ruby
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<jrajav>
Team projects? Tabs? Yes.
<meoblast001>
hm
<meoblast001>
sounds like the spaces argument just got stronger >_>
<jrajav>
If you're talking about "will people tear you apart for using tabs"?
<jrajav>
Well.
<jrajav>
We're all nerds here
<jrajav>
:P
<meoblast001>
nah, that's not my fear at all
<meoblast001>
i've just heard people (particularly rubyists) say things like "I will not work on a project that uses tabs"
<fowl>
you get shot for using tabs in my hood
<jrajav>
^
<meoblast001>
if my project uses tabs, that's very much against my interest
<jrajav>
haha
<jrajav>
Then use spaces
<meoblast001>
then if i want consistency, i use spaces everywhere
<meoblast001>
there are no languages that demand tabs, are there?
<jrajav>
Most editors make the issue transparent anyway. Like I said, the only real reason I like tabs is configurability; as the project originator, that's not an issue for you
<jrajav>
No lol
<jrajav>
Whitespace doesn't count
<jrajav>
(The language)
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<meoblast001>
i mean... with a guideline that demands tabs
<jrajav>
Not that I know of
<meoblast001>
all the languages i've seen with a global guideline say "Spaces or gtfo"
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<jrajav>
If there is, it deserves some major ostracizing
<jrajav>
Yeah, I never understood that
<meoblast001>
understood what?
<jrajav>
But "global guidelines" are almost always written by a very small group of people
<jrajav>
And usually also a highly opinionated one
<meoblast001>
arbitrary decisions with no clear answer + anxiety issues
<meoblast001>
never a good combination
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<jrajav>
Just use spaces
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<jrajav>
Appease the masses
<meoblast001>
hm. guess that'll work
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<eam>
can't use tabs with befunge-93
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<meoblast001>
if i use 4 spaces instead of 2, do people complain?
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<meoblast001>
or at least complain a lot less
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<eam>
meoblast001: I've never had anyone complain to me about 4. As Linus famously said, if you've indented far enough for it to be a problem your code sucks anyway
<Spaceghostc2c>
eam: Also, I can split most anything across multiple lines.
<eam>
you cannot
<eam>
the syntax changes depending on where the linebreak occurs
<Spaceghostc2c>
eam: Yes you can.
<eam>
you're incorrect and I gave you an example above. Try it
<Spaceghostc2c>
eam: Yeah, and you have to include the message with the object.
<Spaceghostc2c>
eam: 1. \n +2
<eam>
you do, because it's whitespace significant
<eam>
that's what the term means
<Spaceghostc2c>
Since 1+2 is just 1.+(2)
<eam>
C is an example of a non-whitespace significant language, where " " and "\n" can be freely interchanged
<Spaceghostc2c>
I think you're stretching the term into something it doesn't mean.
<eam>
ruby is not
<eam>
Spaceghostc2c: and I think you're confused. Go look it up :)
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<jrajav>
I think for the purposes of the discussion, the only whitespace that matters is from the beginning of the line to the first non-whitespace character
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<jrajav>
Of course some modern languages like Ruby and Javascript do things with line breaks, mostly for convenince
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<Spaceghostc2c>
eam: Pretty sure you're being pedantic. :)
<eam>
which makes them whitespace significant. It's what the term means.
<eam>
the term existed long before python
<eam>
(looong before)
<Spaceghostc2c>
Well, don't give a fuck. How's about that? :D
<eam>
Spaceghostc2c: you're welcome to your ignorance I guess, but you brought it up, not me
<Spaceghostc2c>
eam: Mkay pal!
<Spaceghostc2c>
eam: I'd say every language is whitespace significant if it requires whitespace between any single part of the language.