<maestrojed>
combusean I got you. I was thinking the VM in rvm stood for virtual machine. I thought this cause you said the project would have to run in its environment. I was wrong. Ignore :)
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<combusean>
so in your project directory, what happens when you type rvm list?
<maestrojed>
# No dvm rubies installed yet. Try 'dvm help install'.
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<combusean>
dvm?
<maestrojed>
sorry, rvm
<combusean>
wtf?
* combusean
tells maestrojed about copy and paste.
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<maestrojed>
I am typing to you on my laptop cause I have IRC. I am running these on this other laptop. Sorry. I will do better
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<combusean>
heh, i don't care =)
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<combusean>
it's ok
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<maestrojed>
well, I appreciate your help and am not trying to be annoying. I realize I know very little about what I am trying to do
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<combusean>
maestrojed, so anyways, i would brush up on http://rvm.io and check out what's going on with that
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<combusean>
maestrojed, do you have a .rvmrc or .ruby-version/.ruby-gemset in your project directory?
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<maestrojed>
combusean no, neither.
<maestrojed>
I will read more on rvm.io.
<combusean>
neither of the three files?
<maestrojed>
nope. neither of those three
<combusean>
so, typically you would do rvm install 2.1.1 and when that's done run cat 2.1.1 > project_dir/.ruby-version
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<combusean>
and echo global > project_dir/.ruby_gemset
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<whomp>
why can't you ever compile ruby into pure machine code and just run the machine code? i understand that there are times where you're doing super dynamic stuff, like with the eval command, but a lot of what i do doesn't have anything to do with that
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<combusean>
um
<combusean>
my guess whomp is that ruby is an interpreted language, and compiling architecture specific machine code is outside the scope of that
<maestrojed>
combusean okt. Thx. I am reading though rvm.io and your lastest suggestion. I have to pick up my wife from work so I will probably be breaking for a little while. I really really appreciate the help.
<whomp>
but ruby has to come up with machine code at some point. it's just damn lazy about it!
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<combusean>
maestrojed, i'll be online later this evening (hour 30ish, depending on when i get out of here)
<combusean>
maestrojed, also combusean@gmail.com
<maestrojed>
heh! thx combusean You are the best!
<combusean>
np =)
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<whomp>
ultimately, it's doing the same thing gcc does with C: turn the language into machine code. there is nothing the computer can run but machine code. but the way it does it only at the very last minute seems unncecessary for the vast majority of programs i've written
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<whomp>
or for pretty much anyone
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<combusean>
whomp, gcc makes binaries out of C code, and that's a lot of systems-architecture specific stuff
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<combusean>
the ruby interpreter itself is written in C and doesn't make binaries
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<benzrf>
whomp: ok smart guy, how do you propose generating machine code out of ruby besides just embedding ruby code into a binary along with an interpreter
<whomp>
combusean, call it binaries or machine code, but in any case, the ruby interpreter *has* to, in the end, spit out machine instructions
<benzrf>
no it doesnt
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<benzrf>
whomp: here's an example.
<benzrf>
wait actually nvm
<whomp>
it's not like there are special circuits in the machine for ruby code
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<benzrf>
whomp: consider a shell.
<benzrf>
whomp: let's say, bash
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<combusean>
but there are special instructions in gcc that make machine code out of C
<i_s>
JSON.parse(nil.to_json) #=> JSON::ParserError: 757: unexpected token at 'null'. wat
<benzrf>
whomp: bash takes in potentially-somewhat complicated commands
<combusean>
i_s, nil isn't a string of minimum 2 octets like { }
<benzrf>
like 'cat foo !$ > whatever'
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<benzrf>
whomp: therefore, in order to run those commands, it must spit out machine code to do them at some level
<combusean>
i_s, JSON.parse expects strings in its argument
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<i_s>
combusean: ok, but wouldn't proper behavior be to throw an error if one cannot serialize properly?
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<whomp>
guys... every. single. language. spits out machine code in the end. no matter how many steps it does in between, or when it finally spits out that code, it has to spit out machine instructions. there are no other instructions the machine can understand. if you still don't agree, then i can't have a discussion with you
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<whomp>
obviously some languages do not spit out all of the machine code in advance. these are scripting languages
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<i_s>
seems like a property for deserializers and serializers should be that serializing and deserializing a thing should give you the same result, otherwise throw an error on serializing
<combusean>
whomp, there's no "spitting out" of machine code
<combusean>
the kernel loads binaries that gcc produces because it can interpret that machine code
<whomp>
call it "spitting out" or executing
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<combusean>
the ruby interpreter just doesn't make binaries, if it did it wouldn't be an interpreted language.
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<benzrf>
whomp: so bash spits out machine code?
<whomp>
i know that it does not create binaries. but it creates machine code. if it did not, it could not run
<benzrf>
whomp: bash reads your command and converts it to machine code?
<benzrf>
then executes the machine code that runs your command?
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<whomp>
yes. it doens't print out a file of the code that it ran, but it has to
<whomp>
what other code could the computer run?
* combusean
notes it's the kernels job of executing machine code, not bash or ruby
<benzrf>
if i click a button in firefox, it spits out the machine code to do what that button does?
<benzrf>
combusean: no, it's the cpu's
<combusean>
um
<benzrf>
the kernel does not execute machine code o.O
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<whomp>
see now we're just being pedantic. when i say run, i mean that ruby is telling the machine "hey, run this piece of machine code". whether it's talking specifically to the kernel or whatever is irrelevant
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<whomp>
would anyone else like to help out this poor and broken discussion...
<benzrf>
whomp: so you consider invoking a function to be 'spitting out machine code'
<benzrf>
OK
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<benzrf>
aint no arguing with that
<whomp>
great
<combusean>
whomp, its you who's not understanding the context of compilers and interpeters, so if the conversation is broken it's not our fault
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<whomp>
so now what i'm saying is, instead of figuring out all the machine code over and over again with each time we call a method, we can just figure out what bytecode we need for it in the first place
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<whomp>
combusean, great, let's move on
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<benzrf>
whomp: you dont know what youre talking about
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<benzrf>
whomp: you've established that you consider calling a function to be 'spitting out bytecode', so what you CAN do is spit out a series of function calls
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<benzrf>
but then, of course, you still need to bundle the ruby interpreter
<benzrf>
since that's where the functions live
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<whomp>
ok so we've done that
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<benzrf>
yes, this is a thing that exists
<benzrf>
i dunno what the ruby version is called
<benzrf>
i know that python has tools for that
<benzrf>
it sticks your script into a binary along with an interpreter
<benzrf>
and then you can tote it around to systems that dont have a system install of the interp
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<whomp>
why isn't it standard?
<benzrf>
ultimately, every interpreter written in C is really just a that-language-to-C translator, where that language is a massive layer of 'syntactic sugar' over the functions defined in the interpreter
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<benzrf>
well, more or less
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<benzrf>
it's not quite like that when it compiles to VM bytecode and then executes said bytecode
<benzrf>
well, it still is
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<benzrf>
in the same sense that C is just sugar for machine code
<benzrf>
whomp: because it's useless
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<benzrf>
whomp: the vast majority of times, the system youre targeting already has an install
<whomp>
C is useless?
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<benzrf>
no, packaging is
<benzrf>
why bother adding megabytes to the script when the target system already has a copy of the interp
* combusean
heads home for now
<whomp>
ok. so the machine has what it needs already. so it usually compiles?
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<benzrf>
um
<benzrf>
YARV compiles ruby code to YARV bytecode, then executes the bytecode on its VM
<benzrf>
i really, really dont think you know what youre talking about
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<agent_white>
Good evening folks
<RubyPanther>
benzrf: I think the word people used when I tried to describe Ruby as a meta-language for C was "troll"
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<benzrf>
huehuehue
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<benzrf>
the true stranth of lisp is that it is its own meta language
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<RubyPanther>
packaging isn't useless, it is just that the only use is installation by non-technical users. For most uses of Ruby that isn't happening.
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<benzrf>
well, thats what i meant by calling it useless
<RubyPanther>
sure, the little people don't exist.
<benzrf>
:P
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<RubyPanther>
whomp: if you never call #eval you'll never exercise the dynamic functionality anyways, so there is no extra step unless you use it. But if you benchmark the bytecode-generation phase of any scripting language you'll find there is basically "no" time taken there.
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<RubyPanther>
And if you ran the code repeatedly in a tight enough loop to make that timing matter, it would actually sit in the cache and not only would the instructions not get regenerated, they might not even get run
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<RubyPanther>
In the old days there _were_ attempts to make that sort of behavior standard, for example there are old Perl tools for that, but they do actually contribute to performance, and create more opportunities for problems and inefficiencies
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<RubyPanther>
" but they do NOT actually contribute to performance"
<shevy>
man
<shevy>
get over it
<shevy>
nobody remembers perl anymore
<RubyPanther>
perl is the interpreter, the language is Perl
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<arubin>
RubyPanther: Are you referring to generation of compiled Perl files?
<arubin>
Files with Perl bytecode rather.
<RubyPanther>
arubin: yes, binaries with an interpreter and the generated bytecode linked together
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<arubin>
Python does do something like this now.
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<RubyPanther>
I used such products commercially, but we gained no performance benefit. It was just an extra development hassle. But it allowed easy user installation.
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<arubin>
And while doing some performance troubleshooting last year, I noticed that perl still checks for those files.
<benzrf>
yea python uses pyc files
<shevy>
and nobody remembers that distinction either
<shevy>
there is only perl
<benzrf>
helps load time a tad
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<RubyPanther>
Python is often used for end-user GUI apps, so it is probably very useful there. Ruby would probably benefit in that area if we had it.
<benzrf>
it's actually PERL, for Practical Extraction and Report Language
* benzrf
ducks
<RubyPanther>
No, St. Wall covered that.
<benzrf>
i know
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<benzrf>
i was trying to annoy you
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<RubyPanther>
getting me talking about the Old Days will probably annoy everybody _but_ me lolol
<fly2web>
i think that ruby is easy.
<fly2web>
is it right?
<benzrf>
fly2web: almost as easy as UR MUM LEL
<RubyPanther>
fly2web: No, Ruby is programming. Programming is hard.
<rmcclellan>
You lose vast amounts of sleep
<fly2web>
UR MUM LEL?
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<shevy>
fly2web ruby is rather complex as a whole
<fly2web>
what is it?
<fly2web>
complex?
<fly2web>
oh
<shevy>
fly2web but you can use a minimalistic subset of ruby, then it will be simple
<arubin>
It is possible for something to be complex and easy.
<fly2web>
oh
<arubin>
He did not ask whether Ruby is simple.
<RubyPanther>
as long as you know what you're doing, you'll know which parts to use until you know what you're doing
<shevy>
fly2web yeah. For instance, what is a block? What is the distinction @ vs @@? class vs. module? include vs. extend? lambdas, procs, call, evals? (there are like 6 ways to eval...)? what is .send and .method_missing?
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<fly2web>
i read lean to program to 60 page.
<shevy>
lean? :)
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<fly2web>
learn
<shevy>
;)
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<shevy>
it is ok for introduction
<arubin>
60 page?
<shevy>
but the only real way to learn ruby is to write scripts yourself, your brain learns actively that way
<fly2web>
yes
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<RubyPanther>
I read Lean Programming in 60 Days and I cut at least 20 LOC off my apps.
<fly2web>
60page of 231 page.
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<fly2web>
i study ruby for metasploit.
<fly2web>
you know it?
<RubyPanther>
You don't need to read the whole manual, you can read the first half and just try to focus on methods beginning with 'a'..'m'
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<fly2web>
oh
<fly2web>
i see.
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<rmcclellan>
hmm the more ruby you know the more easier it is to put projects together also always keep an eye on the libraries
<fly2web>
‘a’..’m’?
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<fly2web>
who know metasploit?
<shevy>
yeah
<shevy>
unfortunately, people who learn ruby because of metasploit are eternal noobs
<shevy>
I've seen it happen over and over again
<shevy>
sorry fly2web
<RubyPanther>
>> (o=Object.methods.sort)[0,o.size/2] # you can do a lot
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<Igneous>
Hey dudes, if any of you are willing, I'd really like a code critique. I wrote something I'm fairly proud of and would just love for someone to rip it apart. https://gist.github.com/Igneous/4b2267def4042ade15c4
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<arubin>
Igneous: Any reason that you put the single parameter in a hash?
<Igneous>
primarily extensibility
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<benzrf>
Igneous: i see ur using amqp
<benzrf>
why not zmq
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<benzrf>
Igneous: also use thread.join, not loop sleep 1
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<benzrf>
hmm
<benzrf>
maybe
<benzrf>
i dont know these libs ur using
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<shevy>
benzrf did you learn the language R yet?
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<Igneous>
benzrf: nothing there really blocks :/
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<benzrf>
shevy: no
<shevy>
Igneous looks ok though after a "class Foo" statement, I would make two newlines, not one
<shevy>
class AMQP
<shevy>
include Logging
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<Igneous>
yeah I imagine my style isn't supergreat, I'm fairly novice. noted though
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<shevy>
functions in R are objects
* combusean
waves
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<benzrf>
shevy: sounds like python
<benzrf>
in python we can say
<benzrf>
def foo(n):
<benzrf>
return n + 1
<shevy>
hehe
<benzrf>
print(map(foo, [1, 2, 3]))
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<shevy>
R is weird
<benzrf>
sadly python has multiple personality disorder about whether it is OO or procedural
<shevy>
you can look at the source of a function if you type its name, without using ()
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<shevy>
lol
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<katlogic>
benzrf: Python is saint compared to JS.
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<benzrf>
js is like if you took python and exacerbated all of its problems and reduced its good parts
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<benzrf>
and then gave it ubiquitous lambdas
<katlogic>
And fast JIT
<benzrf>
they even have similar object systems!
<dorei>
js is lambda for the mases xD
<benzrf>
well, at a basic semantics level, not at a usage level
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<dorei>
sadly, js is a sideeffect of the early browsers' war
<benzrf>
this is why you should use haskell
<benzrf>
it's sideeffect free!
<combusean>
benzrf, did that whomp guy ever figure it out?
<shalicke>
Am I missing something painfully obvious?
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<jacobsmith>
What is the open(item.standard_url) doing? After looking at the Net::FTP implementation, try just passing the file itself (it opens it as a binary because you're using putbinaryfile )
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<shalicke>
the file is a URL (an S3 URL)
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<shalicke>
so there is no local 'file' to speak of, except for something temporary generated by open-uri
<jacobsmith>
hmm...have you tried downloading it to a temp file, uploading that, and then deleting it? (obviously not what you would want to do long-term, but may help finding where the problem exists)
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<shalicke>
Well, that's how I am working around it, but that's why I am asking -- this *should* work
<shalicke>
AFAICT
<jacobsmith>
Okay, I see...
<jacobsmith>
Let me go back and look now that I know more of what you're doing...
<shalicke>
pulling binary data from url -> putting to ftp as stream
<shalicke>
essentially.
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<jacobsmith>
Are you using 'open-uri' ?
<shalicke>
yes, as mentioned initially
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<jacobsmith>
Okay, yeah I see that now...
<jacobsmith>
That was my best guess; AFAIK you're right, it should work with a binary stream as long as it's using open-uri
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<jacobsmith>
Yeah, sorry, idk where the problem is...especially because open-uri already makes it a temp file...I'd be interested in finding out if you get this resolved! (will you update the gist?)
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<shalicke>
I included some more info and I'm also asking in ruby-lang. Will post on SO too
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<pipework>
yfeldblum: I didn't know you use chef! I'm learning how to test drive chef. :D
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<combusean>
pipework, I have chef experience. Feel free to ask me questions in privmsg. =)
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<shevy>
combusean do you use more salt or more pepper
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* combusean
blinks
<combusean>
shevy, neither, i never grew up on using salt and pepper was never my thing either
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<combusean>
my mom never salted food
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<combusean>
except salted eggs. :9
<combusean>
so I guess I am more a salt guy
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<shevy>
aha I knew it
<shevy>
nobody uses pepper
<agent_white>
Eee my 3.5" LCD is hooked up to my Raspberry! I can now code Ruby like gnomes do! :)
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* agent_white
giggles with excitement
<setient>
nice!
<combusean>
agent_white =)
<setient>
raspberry pi's are nato.
<combusean>
i hate that spotify pauses the ad when you mute it too low
<setient>
neato. a good intro to low power stuff.
<agent_white>
setient: I just got my first the other week! Now I need to interface it with my Arduino... but I need to finish my Ruby IRC client first ;P
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<setient>
agent_white: you can do so much more.
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<setient>
it is also interesting to start thinking in the lower power mindset. like distributing work across multiple low powe rmachines instead of one faster one because it is easier to then add more machines as you need em
<setient>
and it actually shows you realistic hardware requirements for things
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<agent_white>
setient: My mind is racing with ideas! Haha! Best one I have so far is using it to live stream aggregated logs from all my servers... but we will see!
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<agent_white>
sentient: I did see an article about a university program that had students making clusters out of stacks of Pi's held together with legos... looked fun! :)
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<setient>
agent_white: yup! different work requires different resources. i mean a single core, like the one in a raspberry pi, is fast. it is fast enough to do a lot of things. maybe not all at once but you can have many.
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<zellio>
is there a way to print the open name spaces?
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<shalicke>
jacobsmith: answer was to set ftp.passive = true
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<iliketurtles>
could someone explain to me how I might use higher order functions to create nested method calls like one(plus(one)) # => 2 ? I understand the concept of a higher order function, and how to design them in ruby (add_three = ->(x){ x + 3 }; add_three.call(1) # => 4); but I dont understand how I would define a method like plus() in the above case
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<benzrf>
iliketurtles: it sounds like you dont understand hofs cuz that doesnt seem to be an example of em at all
<iliketurtles>
benzrf: from my experience with them in JS, i understand they can either accept a fn as arguments, or explicitly return a function
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<godd2>
iliketurtles You haven't constructed a function which takes in or returns a function
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<godd2>
your add_three function takes in a number, and outputs a number
<benzrf>
^
<iliketurtles>
but is add_three(add_three(1)) not satisfying that?
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<benzrf>
... yes?
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<benzrf>
what godd2 just said
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<iliketurtles>
im confused. add_three(add_three(1)) is an example of using that function in a way that it accepts a function as an argument
<iliketurtles>
right?
<godd2>
not in ruby
<godd2>
the inner add_three(1) will resolve to a number, so you're -really- just giving the outer function a number as input
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<iliketurtles>
yeah that makes sense
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<godd2>
I shouldn't say "not in ruby"
<godd2>
I should say, not the way youve written the funtion
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<godd2>
function*
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<godd2>
Try writing a lambda that returns a lambda, and you'll be on a right track
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<iliketurtles>
godd2: right track as in trying to solve my one(plus(one)) problem?
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<godd2>
I meant right track as in writing a higher order function
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<godd2>
in your one(plus(one)) example, is the outer 'one' the same thing as your inner 'one'?
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<iliketurtles>
godd2: yes; i'd want to be able to do this, as well: one(plus(two)). so i assume each "digit" function will need to recoggnize whether its passed another function or not, and either return its integer value, or call the function passed
<iliketurtles>
my brain just isnt processing how I would accomplish this though
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<benzrf>
iliketurtles: it's NOT being passed a function
<benzrf>
iliketurtles: it's being passed the result
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* benzrf
whacks iliketurtles over the head with a stick
<iliketurtles>
benzrf: "it's" = what
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<benzrf>
oh wait i think i understand your confusion
<iliketurtles>
i havent shown any code examples for this case above^ so are you referring to my add_three function?
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<benzrf>
iliketurtles: in ruby, 'foo()' and 'foo' are the same thing
<godd2>
iliketurtles: One way to achieve that is to have default values for the input variable to the lambda (maybe)
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<iliketurtles>
godd2: the part I am most unclear about is how a "digit" function like one() or two() would be able to pass its value into the nested plus() function
<iliketurtles>
i understand I can define the plus function such that it returns a lambda
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<godd2>
one = ->(x=1){x == 1 ? 1 : x.call} # this is wrong but it looks cool
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<godd2>
I think the problem with one(plus(one)) in ruby is that you'd have to be able to ask plus what it's parameters and then pass it a constructed pair of parameters ex post facto
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<godd2>
and of course puts p, p puts, and puts puts
<maestrojed>
combusean you around?
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<maestrojed>
I have been trying to figure out why I get errors when trying to run the Compass gem. It was recommended that I try rvm. I've been reading up on it. If they only ruby thing we do or use is Compass and sass, is rvm overkill?
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<godd2>
maybe, but I'd argue that having a working knowledge and environment of rvm is beneficial in its own right
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<godd2>
and it's easy to set up
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<maestrojed>
ok, Do you know of a good resource or tut? I have been browsing rvm.io but not sure where to start, how to install or use gems, etc.
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<godd2>
what OS are you on?
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<maestrojed>
godd2 OSX
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<maestrojed>
I have rvm installed. Its using the system ruby. If I try to switch to default I get an error. Just thought I should mention that
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<maestrojed>
But it seems, according to my understanding of the docs, that I should see .rvm or .gem folders in my project. I don't know when that would have been created. But its most likely I just don't understand yet :)
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<godd2>
Have you tried asking the folks over at #rubyonrails ?
<_pingu>
did: gem install knife-solo without errors, but got the following error, when i run the new command: http://pastebin.com/WdVEeay1
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<maestrojed>
godd2 I have not. I can. Thx for the suggestion.
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<combusean>
hey maestrojed
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<maestrojed>
combusean hey dude. I have been reading on rvm and I think I need to keep going. Its pretty expansive. I think all we do with ruby is use Compass and SASS. I was wondering if rvm might be overkill.
<combusean>
rvm's not that difficult to set up
<combusean>
last it seemed you already had half of it going because you were able to run the basic suite of commands
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<godd2>
_pingu: if you run `gem list` is win32-api in the list and if so, what version?
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<maestrojed>
combusean agreed. rvm is installed. Been reading over rvm.io. Seems to be some broad topics and I am not sure where to start. But I will keep reading.
<maestrojed>
Also I am using the system ruby. If I try to switch to default or install another version I get an error. Not sure if that a bigger issue or if system is fine
<combusean>
maestrojed, did you run the rvm install commands earlier, and put that information in the .ruby_gemset and .ruby_version files?
<combusean>
that's really all there is to it
<combusean>
brb
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<godd2>
_pingu: are you in the cygwin bash environment? What happens if you run `knife` in cmd?
<nffff>
/join #startups
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<_pingu>
godd2: my ruby installation is part of vagrant. just removed it completly from my windows 7 and installed it new. then did gem install chefspec. it gets automatically dependencies like knife, too. i get the same error in cmd.exe, powershell and git bash. here is the new error: http://pastebin.com/xyiY41wC
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<_pingu>
godd2: the error comes if i fire knife -h for instance
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<godd2>
what are your ruby and gem versions?
<maestrojed>
combusean ok, is .ruby_gemset created by "rvm gemset create"?
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<maestrojed>
But again. gcc.... I think that is something that we installed recently in trying to fix this issue. Its its not needed I could uninstall it
<godd2>
_pingu: apparently you can try `gem install win32-api --platform=ruby`
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<_pingu>
godd2: just tried gem update. don't know if that was a goog idea. if that doesn't work, i'll install vagrant again, do your gem update command and try your last suggestion.
<SteveBenner09>
maestrojed what os? linux?
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<_pingu>
godd2: ok, that didn't help. try your command now, before i delete and reinstall everything
<maestrojed>
SteveBenner09 osx
<maestrojed>
So I run "brew doctor" and get an error around gcc. I will paste bin it
<_pingu>
godd2: the error stays thes same.. )-:
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<godd2>
Mine works, but I'm on Ruby 1.9.3
<godd2>
And I've never used Vagrant, what does that do, help with the devkit stuff or something?
<Hanmac>
hmmm doesnt homebrew has its own channel for problems like that?
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<SteveBenner09>
cool sweet, maybe you guys can help me test a script I wrote for uninstalling homebrew
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<ak5>
hi guys, I have a server in china that can
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<ak5>
oops
<maestrojed>
ok, I will go ask there. The crux of this is I just need Compass and Sass to work. I am feeling very deflated.
<SteveBenner09>
I was going to write a blog about it being the total tits and all, but I havnt thoroughly tested it yet
<SteveBenner09>
homebrew is godly except there's NO EASY WAY TO UNINSTALL
<SteveBenner09>
fail
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<ak5>
well, I need to install some gems on the server in china, and was wondering if I can migrate gems from my localhost to the server someway. I am using rvm on localhost - not on server. The server is in china so connectivity to mirrors is too bad to dl the gems from there. Also the china mirror doesn't have this gem for some reason (I believe)
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<godd2>
_pingu: If you want, I can help you set up Ruby 1.9.3 on your Win7 box with the Devkit so you can install native gems
<ak5>
any ideas?
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<godd2>
ak5 Bundler can be used for gem installation automation
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<ak5>
godd2: I am not sure that helps. Can I bundle my gems on localhost into some kind of archive then move to server and install that way?
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<_pingu>
godd2: knowing hoy to setup ruby independet would be nice, but i'am not sure if that would resolve the problem. take a look here: https://rubygems.org/gems/chefspec i installed chefspec 3.4.0 from march this year. guess they use a newer ruby version than 1.9.3
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<combusean>
maestrojed, how do you have gcc installed?
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<combusean>
did you go through installing xcode and all that?
<maestrojed>
combusean I have no idea.
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<maestrojed>
Xcode is install so maybe?
<maestrojed>
I personally didn't do it
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<combusean>
i gotta pass out soon
<combusean>
email me tomorrow and i'll hop back on
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<maestrojed>
yeah dude, no prob. I know this is just a circular rabbit hole.
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<ak5>
how can I move a gem from system A to system B if systema is using rvm and the gem is in a gemset?
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<Hanmac>
ak5 i dont think you want that ... depending on the system it might that a gem from system A does not work on system B, specially the bindings
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<Hanmac>
its like using a screw driver for + on a - screw ... it might work, but you might break it
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<ak5>
Hanmac: I see, but my server in china cannot use the US gem repo and the CHinese one doesn't have the pre version of the gem that I want
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<RubyPanther>
ak5: if it is the exact same OS version with the same packages and updates on the same CPU then you can copy it
<ak5>
Hanmac: any other solution?
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<Hanmac>
ak5 is that gem hosted on ruby gems? if yes use "gem download" to ddl the gem package, then you can move it to server B and install it locally
<RubyPanther>
if it is something like, ubuntu on one side and fedora on the other, it might work.. but the odds are going way down
<Hanmac>
also if one server uses gcc and the other uses clang as default CC it could/will also make problems
<RubyPanther>
it it is a public gem, you can always just move the gem by whatever method you would copy the installation
<ak5>
RubyPanther: ok, its linux 64 in both cases, but arch and ubuntu..
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<ak5>
does gem support installing gems from files (archives)? Can I just fetch a gem archive?
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<ak5>
Hanmac: oh didn't see your solution, will try this now
<RubyPanther>
ak5: you could for example install the remote OS in a local VM, but it is a huge pile of work for nothing. gems are easy to install without a repo
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<Hanmac>
ak5 "fetch" is your keyword: "fetch Download a gem and place it in the current directory"
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<Hanmac>
ak5 for more help try "gem help commands"
<ak5>
thanks for this
<ak5>
any way to mirror rubygems easily? I have an ubuntu, npm and pip mirror already, missing gems :D
<ak5>
(the things you do in china)
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<Hanmac>
ak5 there is "mirror Mirror all gem files (requires rubygems-mirror)" but i didt try this before
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<metamaterial>
how's the job scene for american programmers in china ?
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<ak5>
meh
<ak5>
I have always been an entrepreneur/programmer
<ak5>
id you just want a 9-5 I wouldn't recommend it
<ak5>
if you want to build your own empire, its f*ckin nuts :D
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<ak5>
hardest part: finding good people
<metamaterial>
im there
<ak5>
but everything else is up for grabs, so if you are so inclined, jump the pond and start
<godd2>
Just start with a small empire ;)
* Hanmac
is more neutral than good
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<metamaterial>
how's the government toward americans wanting to be licensed programmers ? non-teachers?
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<ak5>
no problem
<ak5>
you need to find a company that will "invite" you
<godd2>
As far as I know, no states in the US require lisencure for programming
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<metamaterial>
the skools do
<ak5>
but if you are a qualified engineer, that's a piece of cake
<godd2>
However, if you want to be a programming teacher at an accredited institute, then you need a degree
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<ak5>
heck I'd do it if you would consider staying on a half year or whatever until you are settled
<ak5>
godd2: yes
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<godd2>
But that has mroe to do with the accredditing system than regulation
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<metamaterial>
never been to china, still in school
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<ak5>
metamaterial: hey if you want an internship or something of that sort, message me
<ak5>
you kinda have to be a freak to want to do that in china, or really like asian women or something
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<metamaterial>
yeah that's what i'm wondering, LoL
* Hanmac
has a licence that he is a freak ;P ... but i would prefer japan over china
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<metamaterial>
i bet being a programmer in china is above a teacher, but below a corporte job/being paid by a western corporation
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<metamaterial>
and i bet the government is really friendly toward them. but i've never read any good news on the subjects or met anyone. thanks ak5 ^_^
<ak5>
the government is not important in china if you are white
<ak5>
and not a total asshat
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<ak5>
as long as you aren't harming chinese people (you are allowed to hurt white people that don't have many chinese friends :P), you're good
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* Hanmac
plays chameleon on a clack-wall ... hm yeah white enough ;P
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<godd2>
That's meta-racist
<ak5>
I have access to all the anemities one would expect a 20 something to want to have/use in a western country
<ak5>
haha
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<ak5>
that includes the occasional joint, etc
<ak5>
china is only scary for chinese people
<ak5>
for white people it's like disney land
<ak5>
sounds weird, but totally true
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<metamaterial>
white people are like salmon swimming with trout in a nice river
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<metamaterial>
just dont jump out and try to walk against the current
<metamaterial>
=D
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<ak5>
sure
<ak5>
if you want to use a fishy metaphore like that
<ak5>
:D
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<godd2>
And that's the story of the wisest thing ever said in an IRC channel.
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<Hanmac>
godd2: hey! yesterday i said something wise too:
<Hanmac>
for a real programmer its not important where the data is coming from or where the data is going to ... only the now is important *zen-mode* ;P
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<metamaterial>
now work it =P
<Guillaume__>
hello
<metamaterial>
work it good !
<Guillaume__>
hi have troubles to use jruby 1.7.12
<Guillaume__>
installed it from tar.gz on a ubuntu 64 bit desktop
<Guillaume__>
when i try to run my rb script , i get the following error : NameError: cannot load Java class org.postgresql.Driver
<Guillaume__>
i tried on a windows 7 computer, it's okay
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<Guillaume__>
i suppose that classpath isn't cofigured well
<Hanmac>
Guillaume__: tryed #jruby ?
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<Guillaume__>
yes Hanmac
<Guillaume__>
i tyry bith channel
<Guillaume__>
try*
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<Hanmac>
_pingu: hm problem with the proxy configuration?
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<_pingu>
Hanmac: Guess no. also tried gem install chefspec -p proxy, but got the same error
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<Hanmac>
_pingu: where is your proxy configured? in your browser or in your system? try to add it to your system too, it might help (ps: rubygems wants https in newer versions)
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<ak5>
Hanmac: I have the .gem file in my current dir, but when I do gem install <gem name> it doesn't find it and prints some not found error
<Hanmac>
ak5 you need "gem install filename"
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<roadie>
is there a way to download the ruby mailinglist archive in one go? I tried wget but it produces one index.html >80MB
<roadie>
ruby-talk that would be
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<_pingu>
Hanmac: ok, found a solution. thanks. :-)
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<ak5>
Hanmac: no such luck: ERROR: Could not find a valid gem 'atomic-1.1.16.gem' (>= 0) in any repository
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<ak5>
Hanmac: ok, it's just some unix permission screwing up, thanks
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<agent_white>
How can I get the index of the current element in an enumerator? ie - a = [1,2,3].cycle
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<_pingu>
I successfuly installed https://github.com/sethvargo/chefspec under win 7. I expected a commandline tool named rspec, but there is none. are my expectations wrong, or can i run rspec on another way?
<metamaterial>
i know there's a gem to handle https setup of a rails app
<diegoviola>
i will be doing some image processing in the background with sidekiq, i think sidekiq uses redis for queues, will the queues help me in case if my system goes down? i want to restart/resume the service and track which images hasn't been processed and then resume from there
<apeiros>
metamaterial: #rubyonrails
<apeiros>
might also be a #rack thing
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<metamaterial>
can ruby go low enough to change the packet header on a tcp/ip requet
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<metamaterial>
Noob101 wants to write tor in ruby =p
<timgauthier>
:O!
<timgauthier>
sweet
<timgauthier>
Tor is that NSA spy tool right?
<apeiros>
I thought it was an FBI honeypot
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<timgauthier>
oh maybe its that apeiros
<noob101>
metamaterial: what's a "tor"
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<timgauthier>
I should get one of them IRC scripts that shows what i am playing on iTunes :D
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<timgauthier>
Tor is a 'secure' browser that uses a distributed network for data and traffic
<metamaterial>
lol
<metamaterial>
lol
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<metamaterial>
tor takes everything you do and shows it to everyone, but ironically it lets journalists and chinese peole and syrian people evade censorships
<timgauthier>
it isn't so much a browser of actual websites as much as a way for you to hide what you are doing. However the FBI has been able to hijack it and take advantage of and exploit other servers on the network which has allowed them to discover who specific users are
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<timgauthier>
it shows it to everyone, but it removes who you are
<apeiros>
timgauthier: it's not a browser. it's a network.
<timgauthier>
yes apeiros but it requires a browser, so i normally think of it as the Tor browser
<metamaterial>
so how low can ruby code go
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<apeiros>
timgauthier: it does not require a browser.
<Hanmac>
timgauthier: nope ... the TorBrowser is a bundled version from Tor+firefox-derivat
<timgauthier>
oh my bad
<timgauthier>
ok
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<noob101>
I got freaking DDoS so I am trying to learn about this stuff to protect myself now.
<timgauthier>
cool
<noob101>
I got DDoS last night...
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<timgauthier>
you got ddos? how do you know?
<timgauthier>
How do you know that you got DDoS'ed, how do you know that you where targeted, and what can you do to reduce your target profile.
<apeiros>
Noob101: chances that you yourself can learn enough in a meaningful time to successfully deflect an actual DDOS is quite small.
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<timgauthier>
12 year olds with a bit of time and money can gain access to a bot network of exploited windows machines so vast that you can't really do much to deflect it
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<metamaterial>
you can eat onion rings and pop corn
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<timgauthier>
yum!
<timgauthier>
don't do that
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<apeiros>
Noob101: and I don't say that meaning you're not intelligent enough or anything. I say it because big companies with vast talent resources struggle to properly handle and deflect DDOSes
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<timgauthier>
look up the post op report from base camp's ddos
<metamaterial>
i disagree
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<metamaterial>
big companies are stupid even with their dns routing
<noob101>
apeiros: I know I got DDoS cause suddenly last night after getting banned from a game, my internet shut down completely which doesn't usually happen and my internet connection was five bars.
<timgauthier>
honestly, when I hear someone say "I want to stop myself from getting DDoSed" it sounds like a 5 year old saying they're going to learn fission. It is so much larger and more complicated, and it unnecessary to understand
<metamaterial>
a single user can disconect their internet, change ip, and figure out how they leaked their ip in the first place
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<timgauthier>
that is the job of your service providers and network admins
<metamaterial>
but that's #iplogic
<timgauthier>
Noob101 that isn't necessarily a DDoS
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<apeiros>
metamaterial: if you're that good, you should make a career in that field. it pays good.
<timgauthier>
intact i suspect that is not a DDoS is any way
<timgauthier>
apeiros its very hard to do that with a large service, especially when you need to keep actual clients connected
<apeiros>
but tbh, I think this is an "I'm on the internet and I know better than those idiots anyway" opinion.
<metamaterial>
get me a job you can have 20 %
<timgauthier>
and perhaps some of those clients are direct IP connecting, others may be using DNS routing, etc.
<apeiros>
timgauthier: oh, I know.
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<noob101>
timgauthier: I am sure though, I looked online and I think that's what happened. Why would that happen all of a sudden? I was having problems with people on that game anyway, they retaliated and already knew my IP.
<timgauthier>
again, this is a very limited and unrealistic view Noob101
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<metamaterial>
your game didn't leak your ip to your hacker friends
<timgauthier>
there are many things that could cause a network outage similar to the one you've discribed
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<timgauthier>
and many of them are likely due to issues within your ISP's network, and not at all related to some kids playing a video game
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<timgauthier>
the fact that you have 5 imaginary bars of signal strength is actually irrelevant.
<timgauthier>
Example, my laptop currently shows full Wifi/wlan signal, i do not have full signal at this moment.
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<timgauthier>
The radio in my mac is getting a full strength identifier from the base station downstairs, but my signal speed is highly degraded, and i am getting about 1/4th of my actual wifi speed due to the interference.
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<metamaterial>
hey speaking of, how come my wifi radio turns on with a mind of it's own?
<timgauthier>
my iPhone does not get any wifi in the same location and drains its battery trying to establish a connection to the wifi (it sees the network sometimes, but the signal is too weak to actually connect)
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<timgauthier>
the questions you are asking show a bit of a knowledge gap with how your connection works, I would suggest looking into sources of interference for connections of the type you have. if you are on a cellular/3g/4g connection you may be surprised how much weather can affect your signal despite showing full bars (the bars are dependant on a calculation that your device uses to show them, most devices show an inaccurate signal strength
<timgauthier>
so that your provider looks good by having more bars in more places)
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<timgauthier>
other issues could be an internal routing issue with your ISP, maybe one of the towers or internal connections overloaded due to too many customers, or a piece of hardware failed and had to route over and dropped several customers at the same time because it had to prioritize bandwidth
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<timgauthier>
the fact that you where having issues before your disconnect makes me believe that it is more likely a case of interference then anything else.
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<timgauthier>
what is your OS and hardware metamaterial
<timgauthier>
my paragraphs are done :D
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<SteveBenner09>
metamaterial its okay this is just an NSA test
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<metamaterial>
network neutrality is dead
<timgauthier>
haha SteveBenner09 :D
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<timgauthier>
i don't know about that metamaterial none of the stuff i've mentioned is new
<timgauthier>
data priority has existed since cellphones existed. Cell towers prioritize emergency services over regular users, and corporate or tier one data over regular users
<metamaterial>
=P
<timgauthier>
thats why google can send data between centres faster then i can connect to a local centre, that is not new
<timgauthier>
:D
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<timgauthier>
the fact that 4g is so broken in north america is what really sucks (europe just lacks coverage believe it or not)
<SteveBenner09>
tim you can't explain it, its like when people discovered they were being wiretapped. After it's been going on for deacades lol
<timgauthier>
thats true
<timgauthier>
but i have previous experience with data transmission on telco's
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<SteveBenner09>
like "OMG that is SHOCKING so is this going affect my netflix queue? or what"
<timgauthier>
lol
<metamaterial>
i thought arpanet was made so i can play an mmo fps while hopping wifi points
<SteveBenner09>
oh neat
<timgauthier>
yes metamaterial :D
<metamaterial>
now we're all just setting up akamai dns redundancies ?
<metamaterial>
for netflix?
<timgauthier>
I worked somewhere with alarm systems, and we used cell towers for signal transmission
<timgauthier>
and my father was high level at a telco, so we talked about infrastructure a lot
<timgauthier>
but yes, your netflix queue is going to be reset :P
<timgauthier>
did you guys see that guy who invented a new way to create cell towers? it uses the interference to create the cell coverage
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<SteveBenner09>
cool, did your dad ever get frustrated with how badly designed the networks are in the US
<metamaterial>
p-cell
<metamaterial>
?
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<timgauthier>
we are in Canada, but yes :D
<timgauthier>
yeah p-Cell or whatever it is called commercially now
<SteveBenner09>
I bet Nikola would have pwnt p-cell
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<timgauthier>
the canadian networks are government mandated so they're not as ridiculous, though they have a mandate to cover the entire country (even though people don't live in many places)
<metamaterial>
nikola would still be rockin an old school cray like naw i got this
<SteveBenner09>
haha there was even a Wired artcile about how shitty our infrastructure actual design
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<SteveBenner09>
its like, bad
<timgauthier>
yeah
<timgauthier>
but your road infrastructure is worse
<metamaterial>
shrug
<SteveBenner09>
oh lord yes
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<metamaterial>
i happen to like my roads tyvm
<timgauthier>
did you know that a basic side road in germany is 2 times as thick, and an auto bahn is 4 times as thick?
<timgauthier>
and they still spend millions every year to repair and resurface them
<timgauthier>
metamaterial yes. but your roads and bridges are falling apart man!
<metamaterial>
so what
<SteveBenner09>
Deutsche Strassen sind ausgezeichnet
<timgauthier>
it will be really hard to fight the russians in NA when all the bridges collapse!
<timgauthier>
hehe SteveBenner09 true
* timgauthier
is a canadian living in germany
<SteveBenner09>
we spend millions on administrative costs tho, that has to count for something
<timgauthier>
no
<timgauthier>
administrative overhead is worthless
<SteveBenner09>
also on sports games lol
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<SteveBenner09>
ich will auch in Deutschland arbeiten
<timgauthier>
conscription man, forced military service, or government work. Make all the low level and unskilled jobs be worked by young people. They choose military or civic service
<workmad3>
timgauthier: so lets throw out every single administrator in that 'overhead' and see how well thing keep going? ;)
<timgauthier>
:P
<SteveBenner09>
yeah it was sarcasm :)
<timgauthier>
ANARCHY!
<metamaterial>
if europe wants to impress me, they can remove all patents on all software. otherwise, stop sueing our tech companies for socialism tax money coffers!
<timgauthier>
metamaterial what?!
<timgauthier>
most of that crap is puppets for american crap
<SteveBenner09>
its public fact that the top-level institutions do not disclose budgets, and are immune to all auditing
<metamaterial>
wat
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<timgauthier>
wat!
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<timgauthier>
i don't know what you are referencing too metamaterial
<SteveBenner09>
seriously
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<timgauthier>
but most of the patent trolling i've heard of in europe is through american puppet orgs in europe.
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<metamaterial>
the only complaint i have about merica atm is all teh tech companies cant make uber cool shit because of some stupid patent the other guy has. even though i respect and want to get rich from the system =P
<SteveBenner09>
New Zealand banned software patents
<timgauthier>
yeah metamaterial
<SteveBenner09>
I wonder how long before they cave lol
<timgauthier>
the problem is that if NZ bans them then everyone goes to another country that has them, so we need to get the EU to ban them
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<workmad3>
metamaterial: I believe it was merica that allowed through a patent for the Linked List data structure... in 2007
<metamaterial>
what wait NZ BANNED SW patents
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<timgauthier>
i'm ok with patents for truly novel things, the problem is the broad general patents that exsist
<metamaterial>
1 sec
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<timgauthier>
getting a visa to live and work in NZ is tricky metamaterial
<metamaterial>
wow
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<SteveBenner09>
american law is so pointless I wouldn't be surprsied if they patented the byte
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<metamaterial>
looks like i'm never releasing my software in nz storez
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<metamaterial>
EU has to do it to make usa dance =P
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<timgauthier>
the fact that a crazy rancher in nevada is being allowed to break the law and do as he wants (even though he knows he is getting away with doing something not legal) just because he's gathered enough support from people who are willing to stand against the government is a scary sign of what is to come
<timgauthier>
you can fix things only so much when the thing that is broken is the population.
<SteveBenner09>
shhhh
<SteveBenner09>
go watch more public news
<timgauthier>
metamaterial they banned the patents, not the copyright
<SteveBenner09>
educate your mind ;)
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<SteveBenner09>
no exactly tim, that is a big difference I think
<agent_white>
I know I'm up too late when I'm hearing from the EU folks.
<agent_white>
D:
<SteveBenner09>
I could be wrong as I'm not a lawyer, but I really think coypright is a lot better at least
<timgauthier>
if the state rules, woah yeah no the interpretation of using stateland to graze cattle for free isn't a correct interpretation, then thats what the government decides, they are the land owner. when you refuse to pay then the government has the legal right to take your cattle as payment
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* agent_white
waves to the EU from Colorado
<SteveBenner09>
I'm cali born and raised agent_white :)
<timgauthier>
if you show up with guns then they have the right to arrest you
<agent_white>
SteveBenner09: Ah!
<timgauthier>
and if you get a small army of people to show up then you are causing public disturbance, and they'd all get arrested.
<metamaterial>
i'll settle for a license to reproduce with forever royalties
<metamaterial>
=P
<SteveBenner09>
yeah I'm waiting for a drone strike to just wipe that ranch off the map lol
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<SteveBenner09>
BREAKING NEWS
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<metamaterial>
what is this news shit you're talking about
<SteveBenner09>
TERRORIST CELL HAS BREEN ACTIVATED IN THE HEART OF AMERICA
<agent_white>
Hey now! I live in the boonies and have cattle in my barn as we speak. We get nice tax-breaks for having our cattle ;D
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<agent_white>
... and bacon slices for having pigs. >:D
<olivier_bK>
when i send mail with ruby i get that in my mail box root (no subject)-Subject: export_instance
<workmad3>
agent_white: you breed your own steak? awesome :D
<timgauthier>
in Canada we get things like that once and a while, they send in the army to break it up and we go on with life. but in this case if they do that then it reinforces what the crazy people think about the government, so you either give in and let them do what they want which teaches them that they can push and get what they want and erodes the ability of the government to govern, or you make those people actually hate you and deal with
<timgauthier>
it
<agent_white>
workmad3: Yessir :)
<olivier_bK>
how i can remove (no subject)
<agent_white>
I was growing fond of the pigs until one ate a new chicken last week. Now, "Pete" and "Polly" are dead to me.
<agent_white>
;P
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<timgauthier>
pete and polly gonna be tasty :D
<workmad3>
timgauthier: or you give them *exactly* what they want, declare them as a sovereign nation and promptly refuse to deal with them
<timgauthier>
i'd never want to raise pigs though, goats and cows sure
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<timgauthier>
workmad3 that sounds clever actually
<workmad3>
agent_white: 'dammit, this bacon tastes like chicken'...
<agent_white>
timgauthier: Hahah there's nothing else to do when I'm done doing ranch stuff!
<timgauthier>
olivier_bK can't you pass a subject too it?
<agent_white>
workmad3: ;D
<olivier_bK>
timgauthier, but in the content mail i have my subject
<timgauthier>
agent_white true :P i'd enjoy doing some of that stuff on the side of my design life, but i'm afraid that there are likely farr to many regulations i would need to follow
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<timgauthier>
i don't know how that function works olivier_bK sorry, just spitballing ideas.
<olivier_bK>
timgauthier, thanks
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<timgauthier>
isn't content the "body" and the subject a different thing?
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<agent_white>
timgauthier: I think it is fun to visit, not to stick around with :P Been here for only ~6 months... I enjoy it, but I enjoy actually seeing people more!
<timgauthier>
haha what brought you there?
<timgauthier>
i mean, why would a programmer go become a ranch hand?
* agent_white
shrugs
<timgauthier>
i'm guessing you are fairly young?
<workmad3>
agent_white: bah, people are weird... and they don't have the advantage of being edible
<workmad3>
at least, I'm told it's socially unacceptable to view them as such...
<timgauthier>
people have opinions and such as well
<agent_white>
I needed a change of pace! And yes, I am! So... I guess while I still have the ability to do such a thing without consequences :P
<timgauthier>
its easy to deal with a disagreeable pig, not so much when the pig is a 300 pound receptionist
<agent_white>
workmad3: Just gotta have the right steak knife!
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<timgauthier>
agent_white there still are consequences, you just find em at 30
<agent_white>
;D
<timgauthier>
i am only 27 now, but i used to do lots of downhill cycling about 10-14 years ago
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<timgauthier>
the shit that is broken or screwed up now is far too much, and the fiancee just doesn't get it sometimes. lol
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<timgauthier>
tstark :O!
<timgauthier>
thats my other online name
<timgauthier>
tstarke
<metamaterial>
hi tony starke
<timgauthier>
:P
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<timgauthier>
Tim Stake
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<timgauthier>
starke*
<timgauthier>
It is tempting to take the fiancee's last name and have a kid named anthony just for that
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<timgauthier>
horyshitaru
<timgauthier>
you can use bonjour.local addresses to access localhost:port addresses that web brick is hosting!
* timgauthier
*donces*
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<timgauthier>
doesn't seem to live reload though
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<shevy>
we should sacrifice timgauthier to the blood god
<timgauthier>
weird question, in javascript is there a way to render the contents of a page between the <body> tags in another page?
<timgauthier>
MORE BLOOD FOR TEH BLOOD GOD
<timgauthier>
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
<shevy>
in javascript there are many ways
<shevy>
but though shalt not use any of them
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<timgauthier>
but i want to make a modal window that pops up with the contents of another page in it with styling etc as if that modal window was the actual browser viewport
<timgauthier>
how do?
<timgauthier>
aka i want to be lazy and have to hand code examples of previous websites i've built, but show a working version hosted on my portfolio site (instead of the ever changing live versions )
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<timgauthier>
shevy... don't make me go ask ##Javascript
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<shevy>
no
<shevy>
you do not want to use javascript
<shevy>
we'll establish an agnostic standard on the browsers instead
<timgauthier>
ok :P
<timgauthier>
but can we do that by tuesday?
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<shevy>
no
<shevy>
there is no rush
<shevy>
and please don't name your kid anthony
<shevy>
name him fred
<shevy>
fred zimmermann
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<timgauthier>
well they are of no help on javascript :P i guess i may have to actually hand code examples :|
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<timgauthier>
i just got distracted by pen and paper game :P
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<shevy>
shows you how mighty javascript is
<shevy>
even the most simple thing can distract you
<timgauthier>
yup
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<timgauthier>
that fight was so strong my little brother character levelled up twice!
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<shevy>
I think you cheat
<shevy>
also you should write a game in ruby runnable on the web
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<mnemon>
timgauthier: why don't you just generate a static version and open it up in a frame or popup window or something ... much easier than making all the stylings static and making sure the current pages styles won't interfere.
<shevy>
more popup windows
<timgauthier>
mnemon it needs to be responsive, i was unable to make an iframe responsive and a popup window would be another window instead of a modal.. it wouldn't play nice on mobile, and most browsers would block it
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<mnemon>
timgauthier: what's wrong with the responsiveness of iframe? i suppose you need to fetch the code from somewhere anyways?
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<timgauthier>
the code would actually be local but when i say responsive i mean it doesn't resize and reflow with viewport
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<timgauthier>
javascript always seems so hacky, but may be its because i don't understand the DOM
<timgauthier>
the DOM itself to me seems like a hacky way to do things though
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<gp5st1>
I'm working on something and I want to use ruby in my code examples, but for something like Array#push or << I also want to show the reällocation cost when adding to the end of an array (in the worst case, i.e. having to copy the array)
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<banister>
gp5st1 i think ruby has a bunch of optimizations that make predicting the cost difficult
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<gp5st1>
banister: I don't so much care about the actual cost, I want the runtime to be clear. I want the O(n) needed to reällocate and copy seen, if that makes any sense (I'm writing something on algos and don't want appending to an array to be seen as a single atomic instruction)
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<DefV>
isn't it?
<gp5st1>
<< or .push (or .append in python) kind of hide it. Then again, so doea realloc :-\
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<gp5st1>
DefV: isn't it what?
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<timgauthier>
that game is fun lol
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<shevy>
what game
<DefV>
gp5st1: isn't array.push in constant time? O(1) ?
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<gp5st1>
DefV: not always
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<gp5st1>
DefV: what happens if the backing array is at it's max size? You need to allocate more memory. If you can't get the memory after the current segment, a new block needs to be allocated and the array copied to the new block (which is the O(n) part)
<DefV>
makes sense
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<gp5st1>
The implementation can double the size of the allocated array each time it needs more space, but that _can_ be wasteful, but if you're doing a lot of adding the drop in reallocations makes it worth it
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<shevy>
timgauthier know what is funny in the german language as opposed to the english language?
<apeiros>
doubling capacity is a common strategy. and a max of 50% unused capacity isn't that bad.
<Hanmac>
DefV & gp5st1 there is also RARRAY_EMBED_LEN_MAX = 3 ... means arrays with size < 4 are stored differently
<gp5st1>
apeiros: depends on the environment. On a μC it could be bad, or if you're array is only 50% full and 500MB in size
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<_2_MsWi>
no one knows?
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<apeiros>
_2_MsWi: seems to me you have a fundamental misunderstanding how IRC works
<apeiros>
which nation the server you connect to is absolutely irrelevant
<apeiros>
freenode consists of a rather large network of servers
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<_2_MsWi>
really. thats what whatschat IRC configuration showed me.
<alex88>
_2_MsWi: should be france, however, it has no meaning
<_2_MsWi>
perhaps its the marker.e.g dalnet was created and owned by US person
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<tobiasvl>
it just showed you what country the server you connected to resides in. you still connect to the same network and all channels and users are shared in the network
<alex88>
or you're connected to a french node
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<_2_MsWi>
thx guys
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<apeiros>
wait, no, if his client shows a french flag, we should only talk in french now.
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<DefV>
m'enfin
<DefV>
ca c'est du merde eh
<DefV>
croissant
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<alex88>
lol
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<alex88>
btw, I've this code for downloading a file https://gist.github.com/alex88/4a59be180089166617d0 on ruby 2.1.1 and it increases the memory usages as big the image is, however it shouldn't read the whole input in ram isn't it?
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<timgauthier>
whats funny between german and english shevy ?
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<_2_MsWi>
I dont know that room can consists of hundreds of nickname.
<timgauthier>
SHWARTZ ROTT UND GELB!
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<timgauthier>
DAS IS DIE BESTE LAND!
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<_2_MsWi>
in several famous room in dalnet. Filled of bots. and several voiced people keep talking in room with this fucking and swearing words
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<timgauthier>
dreidel dreidel dreidel, i made you out of clay
<timgauthier>
dreidel dreidel dreidel now lets go out and play...
<tobiasvl>
_2_MsWi: so do you have a ruby question or what
<timgauthier>
lol tobiasvl
<_2_MsWi>
i dont know what is ruby
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<_2_MsWi>
i wonder western can chat politely like this. i am gonna observe a little bit more
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<timgauthier>
be... very... quiet... we are... being... watched...
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<_2_MsWi>
wow..really surprise to find people has adult and serious talk like this
<timgauthier>
woah, shevy is gone? :O!
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<timgauthier>
anyone know, what are alternative frameworks to rails to build an interactive web-app?
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<_2_MsWi>
i know how to make different type of fried chicken
<rdark>
timgauthier: little tiny sinatra + bootstrap
<timgauthier>
bootstrap as in that terrible .less web framework? :P
<tobiasvl>
_2_MsWi: how old are you?
<timgauthier>
or is it a ruby thing?
<_2_MsWi>
why? u are gonna hit me?
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<rdark>
timgauthier: no, that's the one :) sintra + whatever else then :)
<timgauthier>
lol there are some definite language barriers to that conversation tobiasvl :P
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<timgauthier>
i'll have to look into this sinatra stuff sometime
<DefV>
timgauthier: but really, Rails should cover all your needs
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<DefV>
timgauthier: specific reason you're looking for an alternative?
<timgauthier>
yeah it probably has better newb support
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<timgauthier>
cause i've tried rails a long time ago, it was neat and i'm not against it
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<_2_MsWi>
tim: try if u can talk in my language. I made my thesis in english
<timgauthier>
i figure once i finish my portfolio and start on my next project i could perhaps fiddle on the side with trying to make my recipe sharing site project idea
<rdark>
sinatra is super lightweight. Rails is great and all but it can be a little heavy sometimes
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<DefV>
rdark: you can have a lightweight rails too
<timgauthier>
what i want to build is fairly simple of an idea, but i know quite a bit more difficult in execution
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<DefV>
I never understand the whole lightweight-reasoning. What makes something lightweight?
<timgauthier>
less to load?
<timgauthier>
i don't know what it means in ruby but for me lightweight frameworks are things that don't bring a lot with them
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<DefV>
I don't see the appeal :-)
<rdark>
less code, don't have to deal with MVC etc
<timgauthier>
so bootstrap is heavy because it brings not only the grid system and layout functions, but also pre flavoured styling, and javascript. a complete set of everything, but you may not need everything, you may only want that cool modal window and the grid system... so instead of adding them in, you have to remove all the other stuff, and then things are interdependant
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<rdark>
timgauthier: That's true. It is a reasonable default position though, and there are likely a lot of other choices, but JS/front-end stuff isn't really my area of expertise, I only dabble :)
<timgauthier>
where as the bourbon framework for sass is lightweight because it gives you a bunch of functions you can use, but when you compile it, it doesn't add any code you didn't write directly (well it adds to the code you wrote but you call those things in) and it doesn't tell you how to do anything. You want to make grids by saying "2 col ,4 col" etc then sure, do it that way, or whatever you want
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<timgauthier>
rdark yeah, and for you thats awesome, use bootstrap or foundations because its better to have something
<timgauthier>
but for myself i do the front end stuff regularly so why not just build it :P
<_2_MsWi>
? i dont understand..but as long as manner eng.talks..i think i am gonna learn the gramm
<timgauthier>
(he's pm'ing me)
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<_2_MsWi>
ar
<_2_MsWi>
ou. this is rude
<_2_MsWi>
i dont know u are blind to call me he
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<_2_MsWi>
that's it. conclusion: in every irc..i will meet sicks western only. doesnt worth it.
<timgauthier>
so sinatra makes you build more then rails does? but it has less of an opinion?
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<rdark>
yeah - I'd guess it's analagous to bourbon vs bootstrap above
<timgauthier>
neat
<timgauthier>
i'm still quite in over my head when it comes to programming
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<tobiasvl>
not as much as _2_MsWi
<timgauthier>
hahaha
<timgauthier>
it scares me how many people who can't write english have written their thesis in english
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<timgauthier>
i had a korean roommate who thought he spoke english, he said english words but it was complete gibberish and i Had no clue what he was saying whenever he talked to me. luckily we had another guy who was a korean who had gone to an international school who could translate for us. but man that was a weird experience
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<momomomomo>
English is a hard language to learn :O
<timgauthier>
it was like not knowing what the heck the person was saying and thinking, crap have i had a stroke, i don't understand english!
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<timgauthier>
yes momomomomo
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<timgauthier>
so is german
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<timgauthier>
and ruby, and javascript, and every language :D
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<momomomomo>
I'd always heard that English was one of the most difficult to learn if your'e not coming from a romance language
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<timgauthier>
probably yeah
<timgauthier>
my fiancee learned it in school, but really learned to speak and understand it by watching friends
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<momomomomo>
aye
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<elico>
anyone is willing to think with me?
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<tobiasvl>
think aloud
<tobiasvl>
that way EVERYONE can think with you
<elico>
tobiasvl: thanks!
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<elico>
I want to filter traffic using squid proxy server.
<elico>
They have two methods: url_rewrite and external_acl. now the difference is that external_acl had cache options and this is why I want to use it for filtering.
<elico>
Now I think about of "how to filter the urls", what algorithm?and what DB to use for the filtering. I have an idea but I am not sure about it.
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<elico>
s/had/has/
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<elico>
db can be mongodb or any other key-value DB.
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<centrx>
arubincloud, Rectangles are two dimensions
<hoelzro>
jxf: sort of, using instance_exec (iirc)
<apeiros>
jxf: ruby knows 5 different kinds of variables - which ones would it be?
<hoelzro>
but that just sets the "self" for the block
<benzrf>
jxf: local vars are ALWAYS lexically scoped
<centrx>
"Cartesian coordinates are rectilinear two- or three-dimensional coordinates (and therefore a special case of curvilinear coordinates) which are also called rectangular coordinates."
<eval-in__>
benzrf => undefined local variable or method `n' for main:Object (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/141307)
<maestrojed>
I still am in need of help getting some ruby gems to run and version conflicts fixed. Someone was helping me a lot yesterday but we never came to a working solution. I hope I don't offend by I am going to ask my question again.
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<benzrf>
eh
<apeiros>
jxf: those would be local variables. and no, can't do that.
<maestrojed>
I am trying to get Compass and sass working. Everyone on the team is using ruby gems for this. But I am getting a slew of errors. To start, "Compass Watch" give me errors about failed to activate toolkit because of sass version issues https://gist.github.com/maestrojed/11244911
<workmad3>
arubincloud: rather than it being of much use when you're dealing with normal scalars :)
<workmad3>
havenwood: fun :D
<benzrf>
jxf: one popular trick
<jxf>
apeiros, OK, thanks!
<benzrf>
jxf: evaluate the block within a wrapper object with methods named what u want
<benzrf>
a la sinatra
<apeiros>
benzrf: "this one weird trick, which every developer will hate you for"?
<jxf>
benzrf, "circumvent lexical scopes with this one weird trick... Rubists HATE him"
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<havenwood>
maestrojed: Have you installed the most recent Xcode? (To get build tools.)
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<havenwood>
maestrojed: A popular option for dependency resolution is Bundler.
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<havenwood>
maestrojed: You should get build tools working though. Installing latest Xcode should provide a working: xcode-select --install
<maestrojed>
havenwood We do have Xcode installed. It acts like its up-to-date.
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<maestrojed>
havenwood though some errors imply CLI is not up-to-date. X-code says it is.
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<maestrojed>
havenwood we have tried to implement bundler. It throws errors too. I can paste bin those if you think you can help
<havenwood>
maestrojed: Under `Xcode < Preferences < Locations` do you see Xcode 5.1.1 selected?
<maestrojed>
let me check
<Hanmac>
man i totally hate XCode ...
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<maestrojed>
havenwood yes, for CLI specifically its 5.1.1
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<havenwood>
maestrojed: one thing to do: edit your `/etc/paths` file and put `/usr/local/bin` above `/usr/bin`
<workmad3>
havenwood: with the very latest xcode, they've pulled out installing the command line tools, I believe... instead you have to download them from developer.apple.com
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<havenwood>
workmad3: really? you sure?
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<havenwood>
workmad3: its always not worked once they're installed. doesn't seem to be gone.
<maestrojed>
havenwood okay, I have before but will certainly try again. (brew update) on sec.
<maestrojed>
havenwood agh, gotcha. Sorry.
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<workmad3>
havenwood: ah, that could be it... I'd installed just the command line tools... then v8 informed me it required the full xcode install, so I did that
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<havenwood>
workmad3: aha
<workmad3>
havenwood: brew doctor then proceeded to tell me to install the command line tools from xcode because mine were out of date, couldn't find the download in xcode and did some googling, where I came across an article saying that latest xcode removed it :)
<workmad3>
havenwood: and as my local xcode install was agreeing with that, I believed it ;)
<havenwood>
workmad3: they probably got confused because it removes the install files after installing them, then when you try to reinstall it says they aren't there
<havenwood>
indeed confusing
<apeiros>
gaaah, fuck, string keys don't work with **kwargs :-S
<apeiros>
(of course)
<apeiros>
there goes my superduperplan
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<workmad3>
wow... I just did a 'brew update' and I had nothing to upgrade!
<benzrf>
i can imagine writing tests for something that really needs to not be broken
<benzrf>
but for every little class??
<atmosx>
benzrf: theoritically I should write the tests first, but I leave them alwyas in the end... which doesn't make much sense to test virtually something that you have already tested manually.
<atmosx>
benzrf: but it's good for further dev, when you break things up
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<certainty>
atmosx: how do you know your test is correct?
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<apeiros>
atmosx: nonsense @ "doesn't make much sense to test virtually something that you have already tested manually"
<dumdedum>
unittests are for regressions and maintenance
<certainty>
you really want automated tests
<apeiros>
atmosx: unless all your code is static and never to be touched again (which is almost 100% certainly not the case)
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<dumdedum>
without them, good luck with your mental health in the future
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<katlogic>
The problem with tests is that those are usually typical american style, all-too-optimistic. They expect to succeed.
<certainty>
dumdedum: not only for that but they help there as well
<apeiros>
atmosx: oh, I forgot - additional condition in the unless: and forever and ever used in the same environment, i.e. same ruby version and dependencies
<katlogic>
Fail-driven development is the next big thing. Regressions tests come close but kinda not there.
<apeiros>
katlogic: that's red-green testing
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<atmosx>
apeiros: yeah that's what I said above.
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<certainty>
shevy: why do you hate tests? (serious question)
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<apeiros>
atmosx: I'd like to turn it around: if you test it manually (which means you write some code) - why don't you write that very same check not straight as an automated test?
<katlogic>
apeiros: I thought in those are written where green state is the desired end result.
<katlogic>
Only regressions test for failures (and usually just for regression, it usually does not drive actual development).
<apeiros>
katlogic: yes. maybe I misunderstood what you intended to say.
<katlogic>
I guess fuzzers would come close.
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<atmosx>
apeiros: By manually I mean testing by manually following all the paths, adding erroneous data and so forth.
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<atmosx>
apeiros: it's a web application.
<apeiros>
atmosx: should say that you speak about system tests and not unit tests :-p
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<certainty>
katlogic: what would that look like? What is the desired state of the tests you describe?
<apeiros>
for me, "tests" without further details means "unit tests"
<certainty>
for me too
<apeiros>
atmosx: have fun then clicking through your whole web app all the time then
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<katlogic>
certainty: To always seek test for error states. Basically write regression tests by default. (normaly regtests come from bugreports)
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<atmosx>
apeiros: I'm writing the tests anyway...
<katlogic>
(I'm not saying its actually viable; just that it would provide much better coverage than "this particular case works, so it is sure all correct"
<certainty>
katlogic: ah i see so instead of driving out features you focus on correctness only by trying to find the missbehavior. That's usually part of most unit test suites though
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<apeiros>
a good unit test suite tests happy path + for each positive test at least one negative test
<katlogic>
certainty: No, those check for accordance to spec. Finding misbehavior is way more trickier.
<katlogic>
There is entire science on model checking :
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<certainty>
katlogic: i know model based checking. Don't know if that's what you mean
<katlogic>
certainty: In most naive implementation, the tests (which basically tries to crash your app) comprise of domain parameters for fuzzers
<certainty>
where fuzzers are just sources of input for your functions?
<katlogic>
There is more to be had when actual automata are involved but even mere fuzzers can go a long way.
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<katlogic>
certainty: It's how JS implementations are actually tested. It's humanly impossible to envision all the rough corners where JIT implementation can go wrong.
<katlogic>
(granted, those rough corners are then translated to regular tests, but fuzzer basically "writes" those, not people)
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<certainty>
katlogic: generate input -> feed to function -> test if it crashed/misbehaved ... is that the way it's done?
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<katlogic>
certainty: For hours and hours
<certainty>
sounds like property based testing taken to the extreme
<katlogic>
The test written by human is only specification of domain for randomly generated parameters.
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<katlogic>
(just to illustrate how helpful this is)
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<certainty>
katlogic: i can imagine that it's helpful. I already use a somewhat similar approach for pure parts of my code. Much in the spirit of quickcheck
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<mostlybadfly>
shevy: it is a sublime clone that runs as a chrome extension for free
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<mostlybadfly>
it's pretty good, but i'm trying to get it to auto close tags, i can do it but wanted to see if that was possible
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<Morrolan>
certainty: The emacs' learning curve looks like the Debian logo. :)
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<Morrolan>
s/The//
<certainty>
Morrolan: heh true, i didn't notice that
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<shevy>
mostlybadfly hmm can it be only run when one has chrome?
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<mostlybadfly>
i believe so since it is found under extensions
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<mostlybadfly>
but you dont need to run chrome to actually us it
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<mostlybadfly>
i have it because i use my chromebook to work on stuff and it is a great resource
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<mostlybadfly>
i have a chroot of ubuntu running in a terminal prompt so i can write a ruby file in caret and then run it in terminal :)
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<certainty>
if it weren't chrome it would probably be cool :)
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<mostlybadfly>
haha it's just what i've always used, i dont have a particular favorite i guess
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<certainty>
it's a google product, so you better think twice if you want to use it
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<zellio>
Is there a way to print out the name spaces ruby is searching through when it is dereferenceing?
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<shevy>
certainty well that is only one part of the problem, for me the much larger one is that I would have to include chrome into my daily work stack and I don't use chrome right now, just as I don't use or need java
<shevy>
I think in the end I am more a C and C++ user :\
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<rdark>
I thought you could put chomebooks in developer mode and get an actual local terminal?
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<mostlybadfly>
rdark: you can
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<mostlybadfly>
but you still need a linux environment to run ruby
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<mostlybadfly>
it otherwise just gives you a shell into chromeos
<mostlybadfly>
you won't have apt-get or anything, etc
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<mostlybadfly>
and i dont know what the google warning is about, i mean most things we do online is visible
<mostlybadfly>
with any produce or service there are always people like "oh you better think twice about that" but based on whatever formed opinion on the matter
<rdark>
you can also just install a real distro on it :)
<mostlybadfly>
yeah, i have 12.04 running
<mostlybadfly>
i just don't need to actually dual boot
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<mostlybadfly>
it's hard to describe, its done through crouton
<miah>
'configure'. i just run rubocop, with no rules. and fix the errors it produces.
* Hanmac
's system is gaining more "trust" ;P
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<apeiros>
last time I tried it, I didn't like its idea of good style :)
<miah>
rubocop is all about the 'ruby-style-guide'
<miah>
ya, well. its not about your opinion
<miah>
its about ensuring that the programmers around you can easily pickup your code and digest it
<miah>
and not have to ingest your style as well
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<apeiros>
miah: yes. but as long as there's no universally accepted "correct" style, I'll use my style, or the company/team agreed style in those places
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<miah>
its about minimizing mental processing when exploring code that is new to you, or stuff you haven't touched in ages.
<miah>
sure
<apeiros>
miah: but I did e.g. switch to 2-space indent, even though I dislike it. exactly for the reason you cite.
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<shevy>
\o/
<apeiros>
convention is more important in this case than personal preference.
<miah>
i tend to follow RSG because it seems to be.. community standard.
<miah>
yes
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<apeiros>
anyway, back at reinventing wheels! :D
<miah>
=)
<miah>
enjoy
<apeiros>
heh, I do. nothing more fun than reinventing wheels ^^
<apeiros>
(of course, mine is rounder than any wheel before it!)
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<miah>
ya
<miah>
shit, all i do is rewrite everything in chef because its all a horrible mess
<benzrf>
sdifuchiewufhnewosidcnlsidj
<miah>
sadly few op's people understand the logic of programming
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<benzrf>
what the fuck is wrong with my code
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<miah>
they'll learn though (or somebody will replace them)
<shevy>
benzrf perhaps you use too complicated features
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<apeiros>
miah: I wished we had more time to collab with our ops guy. he is interested to learn. though he'd use python (fine by me, he has good arguments why).
<benzrf>
ive tested a simpler case of what seems to be the same thing
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<j416>
apeiros: the class_eval things from the other day worked fantastically by the way
<j416>
thank you again
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<j416>
:)
<apeiros>
yw
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<RubyPanther>
I've always found the postgres online documentation to be really good, usually whatever I want to do has an example in the SQL reference for the command
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<apeiros>
RubyPanther: the docs are quite good. I'm currently scouring them. but some things are (IMO) needlessly difficult. e.g. getting the create statement for an existing table.
<RubyPanther>
I learned PL/SQL and MTI and all that from the old manual, that was in the 90s
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<apeiros>
(programmatically of course)
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<shevy>
man RubyPanther
<shevy>
are you bringing again the origin of earth
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<RubyPanther>
apeiros: pg_dump -t 'table' --schema-only # is the normal way
<shevy>
IT'S OVER
<shevy>
the 90s ARE LIKE 30 YEARS PAST
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<apeiros>
found that one. I'd like to do that without having to shell out.
<RubyPanther>
I know, but that's how long ago I was a db consultant. Even as a postgres professional I never did find an actual book on it. But I never quite needed it. I did use a general standards-based SQL book
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<RubyPanther>
far more common is doing CREATE ... AS SELECT ... and so most people don't need to know all that stuff
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<RubyPanther>
apeiros: yeah, if you really want every last detail you might as well write it in C too so that you don't have to install languages to use it
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<RubyPanther>
presumably much of that could be pasted from pg_dump
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: install languages? as in pgplsql and pgruby etc.?
<RubyPanther>
pgplsql yeah
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<apeiros>
well, being able to do it from plain sql would be nice
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<apeiros>
pgplsql is acceptable, even if not too nice
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<RubyPanther>
pl/ruby is lots of fun, but I never actually use it
<apeiros>
:)
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* timgauthier
screams and runs under his desk
<shevy>
RubyPanther what else do you do to interface with postgre?
<timgauthier>
So i was just reading about this Awesome, amazing new CMS that all of the designers are raving about
<timgauthier>
how amazing it is, how easy to use it is, how it has no parsing order
<timgauthier>
how it uses twig as a template engine (looks like liquid syntax) and how amazing it is for designers
<shevy>
sounds awful
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<timgauthier>
and i go to the website, i go to click on download
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<timgauthier>
it requires php5 :|
<crome>
shevy: I noticed a pattern
<crome>
you hate everything you dont know
<LadyRainicorn>
lolphp
<crome>
which does not necessarily mean you are not right
<shevy>
crome nope, I hate php
<crome>
of course
<crome>
;>
<katlogic>
php is awesome
<RubyPanther>
shevy: I just use the REPL and the CLI and AR
<katlogic>
for wordpress
<katlogic>
why people keep reinventing wordpress :(
<timgauthier>
wordpress is terrible
<shevy>
haha
<timgauthier>
wordpress isn't a CMS
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<katlogic>
well, when we're confined to scope of php
<timgauthier>
and its too bloated to be a blogging platform
<timgauthier>
it falls apart and costs my customers money, intact I now make money moving people away from wordpress!
<RubyPanther>
today I'm writing a GUI reports tool for SQL Server, though. Thankfully AR will hide the details.
<timgauthier>
and this Craft thing truly looks amazing and very nice
<katlogic>
timgauthier: die octopress hippy!
<timgauthier>
but why is it PHP :(
<shevy>
because it is the language of the world wide web
<LadyRainicorn>
PHP's horribleness has an infinite surface area.
<timgauthier>
lol LadyRainicorn
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<crome>
:D
<timgauthier>
the good news with craft is that you are not writing php for it, you write in twig which is like liquid which isn't any better then .erb and i think likely gives you less control
<Morrolan>
So it's basically intestines after infinite years of evolution? :)
<timgauthier>
but the upside is that i can just install craft on almost any host package
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<crome>
brb, kernel upgrade
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<LadyRainicorn>
Yes, except without the deliciousness.
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<j416>
if I want to infinitely loop until a condition is true, should I: next until <condition> -or- nil until <condition>
<j416>
next until sounds more natural but logically nil makes a bit more sense, perhaps
<apeiros>
j416: that's a busy loop and generally a bad thing
<apeiros>
j416: at the very least perform a sleep, even of only for 0.01
<j416>
I'm waiting for user input
<apeiros>
j416: then you don't need such a loop
<j416>
then what?
<shevy>
j416 use loop {}
<apeiros>
j416: use a blocking method
<j416>
ah, loop {}
<j416>
thanks
<timgauthier>
shevy i've yet to find a ruby based thing i can use for client work sadly
<j416>
apeiros: hm?
<apeiros>
*sob*
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: I haven't use oracle more than a few times, but postgres just uses schemas. so for example an addon package of functions would provide its own schema
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<shevy>
timgauthier you mean for web-content creation stuff?
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<shevy>
timgauthier rails!!!!!!
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: ok, I guess that makes sense
<shevy>
you can do PHP like shops in RAILS
<j416>
apeiros: I'm waiting for user input and I'm asking the user over and over again until input is valid
<apeiros>
j416: e.g. IO#gets already blocks for you
<j416>
gets is what I'm using
<timgauthier>
rails doesn't work for my clients, they can't be installing rails to update their own site
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<shevy>
j416 gets() should suffice, there is also select() though
<j416>
no
<j416>
I failed to explain
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: the downside is that in the client you often have to set the schema search path in order to avoid explicitly naming the schema over and over
<apeiros>
j416: in that case, I don't think I see how your question makes sense, because neither would work
<j416>
<condition> is not "user input something"
<apeiros>
I mean, neither of your two options would work
<j416>
well, I'm doing next until <condition> now and it works
<apeiros>
get_input until valid_input?
<shevy>
j416, like select( [$stdin], nil, nil, 1.1 ) - I use that for my IRC bot, so it can listen to input but I can also talk through it from the commandline
<j416>
apeiros: hm maybe
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<j416>
apeiros: right now I'm just calling a method in the condition that asks the user
<timgauthier>
shevy i need something that i can install that the client can log in and update content easily. sadly that doesn't exist unless i build it from scratch with rails.
<j416>
apeiros: simplified: next until gets.chomp == 'blergh'
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<apeiros>
j416: you're not really asking the user for input then, though
<j416>
I don't
<j416>
I'm... not?
<apeiros>
as in, you don't tell him/her that the input was wrong
<Morrolan>
timgauthier: Sounds like you're looking for one of the many CMSes out there? ;)
<j416>
and I don't want to
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<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: You have to build it from scratch to the needs of each client because including all the features all the clients need gives you a kitchen sink that few of them can use without handholding, and the minimum feature sets often conflict
<shevy>
I think you two should continue detailing this!
<j416>
I just wanted to know if "next until" had some implication
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<apeiros>
rephrasing: you're just waiting for input, not asking for input
<j416>
I'm asking earlier
<j416>
but it's not important :)
<j416>
it's obvious by the context
<apeiros>
well, your app :-)
<j416>
this is more like a confirmation
<apeiros>
meh
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<shevy>
I cant recall having seen "next until" before :P
<timgauthier>
Morrolan yes, i have a couple of CMS's to use, the problem is that shevvy hates the php based ones :P. I'd love to use a ruby based one but i don't know of any
<Morrolan>
timgauthier: Ah. :)
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<RubyPanther>
What you want is a rails-based CMS of your own design that you know well and can easily plug new features into
<timgauthier>
RubyPanther maybe :P
<shevy>
nonono
<shevy>
timgauthier that is totally not true
<timgauthier>
i'm not advanced enough to do that though ;)
<Morrolan>
Don't listen to shevy when it comes to PHP. ;)
<shevy>
Morrolan you can listen to me but only if you quote correctly, not incorrectly as timgauthier
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<shevy>
timgauthier I want that too!
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<timgauthier>
i actually want a ruby based cms rendering engine and content API
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<shevy>
there are some amazing pieces of software written in php
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<RubyPanther>
What most consultants out there do is set up wordpress, blame anything hard on wordpress' big name and certain suitability, and then just end up doing the handholding. Of course "most consultants" are failed PHP programmers who now setup wordpress for a living...
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<katlogic>
RubyPanther: but but ... what about poor joomla? drupal? nucleus?
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* j416
leaves having learnt little :(
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<RubyPanther>
j416: Learn faster!
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<shevy>
j416 you learnt much!
<RubyPanther>
katlogic: I'm sure they have their share of failures ready to sell and configure
<shevy>
j416 you learned that you should use loop {} and that you can also use select and that you should not use next
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<j416>
shevy: no I didn't
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<shevy>
:\
<shevy>
and where from comes input the first time
<timgauthier>
RubyPanther yeah, thats what i call not doing it the right way :P
<j416>
shevy: you don't even know my use case so stop :/ing :)
<j416>
because loop has no condition
<j416>
I will do: input = get_input until valid?(input)
<timgauthier>
i'm just a designer, i really don't want to have to build a complete back end repeatedly, i want a system i can reuse that lets me have a front end that matches my needs for each project. the backend should let me plug the stuff i need into it! I am going to give sinatra a serious try with my personal project when i can
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<shevy>
I commented on that code
<RubyPanther>
conditions are optional. in CS 1 they taught me the basic application lifecycle: input, process, output, loop forever
<CodeBunny>
timgauthier: drupal
<shevy>
I did not comment on your use case
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<shevy>
:/
<j416>
what code?
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<shevy>
<j416> I will do: input = get_input until valid?(input)
<j416>
why is it bad?
<shevy>
I don't see code like that often
<shevy>
x = 5 until something?(x)
<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: No, the strategy is to build a complex backend once, and then hide the details mostly by only designing in the parts you want for each client
<shevy>
no thanks
<j416>
(fwiw the methods don't have those exact names, but no matter)
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<shevy>
it's your code anyway
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<j416>
shevy: what would you suggest?
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<j416>
shevy: loop has no condition
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<shevy>
valid? will return a condition too, so you already work with conditions
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<shevy>
it is your requirement that it all must happen in one line, not mine
<shevy>
nonono that is your code, not mine
<katlogic>
Clearly it is patented. That would be patent infrigment.
<shevy>
j416 already did, you rejected it, no problem, it's your code
<timgauthier>
RubyPanther yeah thats the dream :S
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<katlogic>
RubyPanther: Isn't that approach patented by 37signals?
<shevy>
j416 so?
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<RubyPanther>
They didn't need a patent, they have a solid early-mover advantage. Anyways rails is their free advertising. If they had a patent they'd have to hire marketing people and stop saying F* U
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<shevy>
in ruby everyone is free to use what he or she prefers
<apeiros>
j416: loop is IMO always a poor choice.
<j416>
shevy: well, I need to stop looping when condition is met
<j416>
shevy: if you don't have anything good to say I'll just return to the project
<shevy>
j416 it's a bit hard to generalize because in some code I use things differently, for instance: in games I like to refer to an ivar called @game_over
<shevy>
loop is perfect
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<shevy>
j416 well, in principle yes, but I usually split it up into separate methods
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<j416>
I never said it's a requirement for it to be one line
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<shevy>
but you use only one line :)
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* j416
gets back to project, thanks all.
<j416>
I have a single condition and there will never be less nor more
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<j416>
shevy: I was just interested in what you may suggest
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<katlogic>
wow, irccloud zergrush
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<j416>
shevy: loop and break?
<apeiros>
j416: use until, not loop.
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<shevy>
loop {}
<timgauthier>
i have an omnifile list with my wish list on it as it grows
<j416>
apeiros: thanks.
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<j416>
shevy: where do you suggest i put valid?(input)?
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<j416>
nevermind then
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<RubyPanther>
katlogic: I hope not since they released rails! lol
<j416>
why loop and not until?
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<s2013>
how do i upgrade ruby2 to ruby 2.1 on ubuntu? apt-get doesnt work
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<s2013>
do i use rvm then?
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<RubyPanther>
it doesn't matter if you use loop or until or whatever, as long as the work inside is only a single method call, and the loop block is in its own method
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<RubyPanther>
then you can just return from the method when ready and not worry about the loop
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<Morrolan>
s2013: If you rely on the system's package manager, you'll have to wait until your distribution's maintainers package Ruby 2.1, yea. That's one of the reasons why, for development, people use tools like RVM or chruby.
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<s2013>
k cool jus twondering
<s2013>
thanks
<Morrolan>
(Another reason being that those tools allow you to easily have different versions of Ruby installed)
<shevy>
Morrolan don't hate on debian!!!
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<RubyPanther>
system ruby is only used for system packages that need it
<shevy>
they consider ruby 2.1 as WAY too unstable to package it!
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<Morrolan>
shevy: I think Debian stable is actually on 1.9 by now!
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<shevy>
man that's a risky move
<shevy>
I would have stayed on 1.8.x for longer
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<timgauthier>
shevy lol
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<Night-hacks>
can anyone explain whats the difference bet instance variable, local variable , and class variable ?
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<RubyPanther>
1.9 has only been stable for what, 4 years? That is like, new and scary. Barely enough time to shake out a heartbleed. I sympathize with the BOFH.
<shevy>
Night-hacks local variable is like: x = 5
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<shevy>
Night-hacks the other two variants have a broader scope, and at least one @
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<shevy>
Night-hacks in a class you usually want to use a @ivar if it is important for that class in question, like class Person; def initialize; @age = 15; end; end
<RubyPanther>
instance variable belongs to the instance, local variable belongs to the method, class variable belongs to the class
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<apeiros>
local variable belongs to the local lexical context
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<apeiros>
and possible to closures closing over it
<apeiros>
*possibly
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<RubyPanther>
sure, I was sloppy on locals
<Night-hacks>
i got local variables
<shevy>
\o/
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<shevy>
we have 33% covered then
<Night-hacks>
yes
<shevy>
Night-hacks @@class variables are awful, you can forget them
<shevy>
then we have 50% covered!
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<Night-hacks>
about @age
<RubyPanther>
You can't forget @@classvars, Matz knows best
<shevy>
@age is an instance variable
<shevy>
hopefully it keeps track of the age of a Person
<gchristensen>
I'm using open-uri on an HTTPS resource, and I'm getting an OpenSSL::SSL::SSLError SSL_connect exception about certificate verify failed, meanwhile chrome and curl do fine, running 2.0.0p353 -- here's a gist (with a sample URL, and output) https://gist.github.com/grahamc/a05e6e1d80524e694807 -- any tips on resolving this? I tried updating the ca bundle, that didn't seem to make an effect. I don't want to
<gchristensen>
disable SSL peer verification.
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<Night-hacks>
it's reachable in a class bet different methods right ?
<Night-hacks>
i mean @age
<RubyPanther>
Some people are frightened of class variables and hide under skins wielding spears
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<RubyPanther>
gchristensen: You generally disable peer verification, or else only connect to correctly configured peers
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<Night-hacks>
am i right shevy ?
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<RubyPanther>
for things like web spiders you disable for sure because it's the wild west out there
<shevy>
well
<shevy>
Night-hacks if you wish to access @age, you need to use a method
<shevy>
Night-hacks but yes, inside your class you can use @age freely
<shevy>
it will keep track of what was stored there
<RubyPanther>
good idea to check @age before accepting bets
<shevy>
it is like a local variable but it is local to your whole class
<gchristensen>
RubyPanther: are you able to point to an issue with that host which makes it not configured properly? because I definitely haven't ever really needed to disable SSL verification for anything reasonable.
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<RubyPanther>
gchristensen: because they self-issue
<gchristensen>
this is /not/ a self-issued certificate, this is via GoDaddy with a valid chain of trust.
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<Night-hacks>
shevy: nice so i got the class @variables too ;)
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<shevy>
excellent
<RubyPanther>
writing a web spider you're guaranteed to smash into that error on day 1 if you use live sites
<shevy>
Night-hacks @@class variables are not so useful
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<Night-hacks>
shevy: what's their scope ?
<shevy>
Night-hacks it is basically a counter for the class you define it in
<shevy>
like class Person; @@foo = 5; end
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<shevy>
or rather
<shevy>
like class Person; @@foo = 5; def initialize; @@foo +=1; end; end
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<gchristensen>
RubyPanther: you're not looking at my issue, but making recommendations based on general cases.
<gchristensen>
I'm not helping my case here, I know, but just putting that out there.
<Night-hacks>
shevy: is it a shared memory if i create different instance so this @@var points to the same memory address ?
<gchristensen>
I appreciate your feedback, though.
<RubyPanther>
gchristensen: L O L
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<RubyPanther>
or, lots of experience with this EXACT ERROR
<shevy>
Night-hacks no idea what you mean with memory address, you can't easily manipulate memory stuff from within ruby
<RubyPanther>
like I said, if you're written Ruby web spiders, this error is old hat
<Night-hacks>
shevy: let me explain
<shevy>
Night-hacks but @@var will be unique to all classes like that
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<shevy>
or rather, global for all these classes haha
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<Night-hacks>
shevy: like static vars in java
<arubincloud>
Not quite.
<shevy>
I think static vars in java are another concept
<arubincloud>
Use of @@ is strong discouraged.
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<shevy>
Night-hacks but keep in mind what I wrote above, @@ is awful, don't use it
<arubincloud>
@@ will look all the way up the class hierarchy looking for an existing variable first.
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<RubyPanther>
Use of @@ is not "discouraged" by Ruby, only by a few hipsters who actually think they can design a better language than Matz, but instead of doing so, they pee on Ruby features
<arubincloud>
RubyPanther: There are very good reasons not to use @@.
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<RubyPanther>
Sure, and there are very good reasons TO use it!
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<arubincloud>
And it does not do what most people think that it does.
<RubyPanther>
Not your favorite feature, or not how you do it, that is NOT the same as something being considered dangerous, it is not an excuse to try to teach people your own favs instead of normal Ruby
<shevy>
people who have to use @@ are doing something wrong
<RubyPanther>
Matz isn't wrong, period.
<RubyPanther>
That would be not-Ruby.
<bricker>
RubyPanther: I think I've read that matz has said if he was designing the language today he would leave out class variables. Don't ask me for a source, it was probably someone talking about it in this channel.
<shevy>
at this point people who defend @@ should show some code where they use @@ in production in one of their projects
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<shevy>
come on guys!
<arubincloud>
Specifically, @@ might act like static instance variables in Java most of the time, until it does not.
<LadyRainicorn>
So you believe Ruby is perfect and Matz is infallible?
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<shevy>
don't let the pro @@ group down
<RubyPanther>
bricker: I've heard people recycle that "he would leave out ___" for a bunch of different features, always without a source
<RubyPanther>
Ruby doesn't need to be "perfect" to be RUBY
<horrorvacui>
What is the reason they say not use @@ over class instance variables again?
<RubyPanther>
horrorvacui: their favorite design patterns are from language ____
<shevy>
:(
<LadyRainicorn>
You realize you can defend, say, PHP with that, right?
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<RubyPanther>
Yes, PHP is just the right PHP for PHP
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<RubyPanther>
if it sucks, use Ruby. If Ruby sucks, use something else.
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<arubincloud>
RubyPanther: You are being ridiculous.
<shevy>
well
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<LadyRainicorn>
So smallpox is just right for smallpox as well?
<shevy>
he defends @@ but still has not shown production code where he uses it
<LadyRainicorn>
Your argument applies to literally everything.
<RubyPanther>
Don't just teach people not to use the parts of the language you don't like and leave them thinking you're giving them serious advice. It is totally lame. Teach them Ruby-ish Ruby, or make a new language
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<shevy>
yeah yeah now show some of your code with @@
<RubyPanther>
shevy: I would make the same case against propagandizing newbs even if I didn't or don't like @@ and don't use it
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<RubyPanther>
it has nothing to do with @@ itself
<shevy>
perfect. now where is the code hmmmmm
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<shevy>
oh really
<shevy>
so you advocate for it but have no code where you yourself use it?!
<RubyPanther>
it is an important part of the language to learn if you're using Ruby
<shevy>
no it is not
<shevy>
you can have a million features and never have to use them
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<RubyPanther>
Ruby doesn't have a million features, this isn't Perl
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<arubincloud>
Sure it does.
<arubincloud>
And half of them came from Perl.
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<horrorvacui>
I think half of them are happy accidents.
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<shevy>
it's ok to mix in new ideas
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<tobiasvl>
what are you kids fighting about
<horrorvacui>
Ruby is just more introspective than most so it allows it to be viewed in what ever light you want. Therefore it seems to be extensive while in reality it is simple.
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<shevy>
tobiasvl we need to find code with @@ in production
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<tobiasvl>
shevy: why? oh god, why
<horrorvacui>
lol
<RubyPanther>
There is a difference between a new idea, and claiming that the canon is wrong.
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<RubyPanther>
Features that exist in Ruby are the right features for Ruby, because Ruby is a language designed by Matz, not by an IRC vote
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<shevy>
matz added autoload?
<shevy>
matz advocates its removal?
<centrx>
Only matz can do the impossible like that
<shevy>
rightfully so! it's his language after all
<eval-in__>
centrx => /tmp/execpad-8fddccc14367/source-8fddccc14367:2: warning: class variable access from toplevel ... (https://eval.in/141364)
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<shevy>
RubyPanther cool number, can you show some code as well?
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<RubyPanther>
shevy: ruby is open source, you can read the code without my help
<gchristensen>
RubyPanther: for the record, updating cacert.pem with a more recent version (this one, ex: http://curl.haxx.se/ca/cacert.pem) and setting it with SSL_CERT_FILE=path-to-that-file.pem resolves the issue. see you!
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<shevy>
RubyPanther I am interested in your code, not in ruby code
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<shevy>
after all you use @@
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<centrx>
cat file_with_double_at_signs
<RubyPanther>
shevy, if I do or do not use @@ is not relevant to anything
<timgauthier>
i'm looking at the sinatra about page and they thanked someone for removing the whitespace errors
<shevy>
timgauthier hmm
<RubyPanther>
good design doesn't have a bunch of shared state between members of a class. When you do have such shared state, @@ is perfectly acceptable. Being against sharing amongst siblings should not cause people to get confused and think that @@ is bad. @@ isn't good or bad, it is the normal way of doing that sharing.
<centrx>
timgauthier, It's not a general term, unless it means shabby whitespace usage in the file
<RubyPanther>
What is really lame is when people are against @@, but then they use the same shared state and hide it behind class methods and instance vars on the class instance. d'oh!
<shevy>
Night-hacks put the first @amire inside def initialize
<centrx>
timgauthier, extra spaces at the end of lines, wrong indentation
<centrx>
timgauthier, Or it is related to something in sinatra
<Night-hacks>
shevy: but it's instance variable it belongs to my class
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<shevy>
Night-hacks to the class, yeah, but you want your object to have it
<timgauthier>
quote " Ryan Tomayko (rtomayko) for constantly fixing whitespace errors 60d5006"
<Night-hacks>
shevy: it's inside my class why should i put it in initialize method
<shevy>
Night-hacks simply add def initialize, put @amir into it, and your code should work fine
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<atmosx>
hell
<arubincloud>
RubyPanther: My issue with @@ is its semantics, not the shared state, which is a separate issue.
<shevy>
Night-hacks your class is another object than your instance, so self refers to different selves
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<RubyPanther>
arubincloud: object semantics flow from Ruby, it is in error to have your own semantics
<horrorvacui>
arubincloud: what about when you want to inherit the variable, to do that with class instance variables you'll have to do A LOT more to get the same usefulness.
<shevy>
Night-hacks you need to look at the surrounding scope, inside of a method it is different than outside
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<arubincloud>
The entire issue is the possibility that @@ will set a variable higher up the class hierarchy.
<arubincloud>
@@ does not limit itself to the current class.
<RubyPanther>
If everything "wrong" with @@ turns out to be personal opinions, then it is _objectively_ in error to claim it is "bad" which implies being objectively bad.
<arubincloud>
It first looks up the class hierarchy for an existing @@ variable.
<horrorvacui>
arubincloud: I know but sometimes you might want to use class variables just to save having to do a bunch of extra work to avoid class variables.
<RubyPanther>
Right, @@ does not limit itself to your over-simplified misunderstanding of Ruby class semantics
<arubincloud>
I do not claim to be an expert on Ruby class semantics.
<arubincloud>
I do not understand why this behavior is desirable.
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<RubyPanther>
It is actually rather useful when you're inheriting, for example from a framework, and you can just set a class var and have the parent class use the correct value. The correct class value for YOUR class, regardless of where the method is defined.
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<horrorvacui>
I've seen people use hooks and modules to get inheritable class instance variables. Why not just use a class variable and be cautious in its use.
<RubyPanther>
You don't have to organize your code that way, but it is one of the Ruby ways things are done.
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<shevy>
horrorvacui what if you want to include that module into different projects?
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<RubyPanther>
I actually find it substantially surprising that "not my favorite" so quickly translates to "bad when other people use it as described by the manual"
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<RubyPanther>
Some foos are bars. All bars are bazzes. All bazzes are foos. T/F?
<tobiasvl>
I think most of the Ruby community has agreed in later years that @@ is bad and should be avoided though
<horrorvacui>
shevy: You want to reuse a class variable you just use the class. If you want to reuse a class instance variable you define a module, add a singleton method, hook self.inherited, then include module.
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<tobiasvl>
keep using it by all means, but there is at least some consensus that @@ is bad
<RubyPanther>
if by "ruby community" you mean "IRC"
<horrorvacui>
Seems a bit much doesn't it?
<tobiasvl>
RubyPanther: yes and "blogs"
<tobiasvl>
and "the internet"
<RubyPanther>
Actually, blog comments and "the internet" both trash the concept that that is the consensus!
<arubincloud>
RubyPanther: I was first alerted to its badness by Eloquent Ruby.
<timgauthier>
what the heck does "get '/' do" mean?
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<shevy>
horrorvacui don't really know what you describe here, I meant what you would use. Would you recommend this here? module Foo; @@foo = 5; end; class Bar; include Foo; end
<etqqkoiflwhb>
timgauthier: sinatra?
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<timgauthier>
etqqkoiflwhb yeah
<horrorvacui>
no...
<shevy>
timgauthier it refers to the main default URL you get for your app
<timgauthier>
i'm looking at the getting started from digitaloceans
<tobiasvl>
timgauthier: parentheses around args are optional in ruby so it's equivalent to `get('/') do` and also it's sinatra
<timgauthier>
agh, so its URI ok
<horrorvacui>
shevy: let me see if I can find an example somewhere
<shevy>
yeah
<etqqkoiflwhb>
timgauthier: get is a method, '/' is an argument, and finally do ... end is a block
<timgauthier>
you guys all knew it was sinatra from that one snippet of code? wow...
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<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: get as in the HTTP verb
<timgauthier>
so its saying, when this web app is at / (root url) then do this thing?
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<timgauthier>
so its not ruby doing the get request, its when the browser does a get request then ruby does the response?
<horrorvacui>
I'm complaining about this usage of class instance variables vs sometimes just using a class var
<canton7>
yeah. this is a web server, not a web client
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<shevy>
I've also not seen it in rack
<RubyPanther>
They've been crying about the feature they don't like for... 8 years! And still haven't convinced Matz to get rid of it.
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<timgauthier>
so when the client his the server at / do this thing, is what the app is thinking? i'm trying to get my head into the logic space that this app would use
<etqqkoiflwhb>
timgauthier: if you aren;t familiar with ruby blocks, read up on closures in wikipedia
<timgauthier>
yeah i found a getting started from digital ocean and its pretty good so far, sometimes i just need to paraphrase to programmery people to get it into my head, if i read it it does shit all
<RubyPanther>
Ruby blocks are _rarely_ used as closures, and studying closures is guaranteed to confuse you
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<RubyPanther>
and it will generally only matter if your methods are doing more than one thing
<tobiasvl>
this channel is FULL of programmery people
<tobiasvl>
we are all
<tobiasvl>
programmery
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: too sad, that SO procedure produces an incorrect create table statement :(
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: :(
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: what is the use case for needing it?
<apeiros>
well, lucky it's not something I need right now
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: doing something akin to phpmyadmin for postgres
<EminenceHC>
Does that mean a place where professional grammar people hang out? programmery?
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: So you're populating checkboxes or something based on another table?
<etqqkoiflwhb>
RubyPanther: hmm.. is it 'coz blocks are used more like, passing a function as an argument?
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: no, I show the table definition as sql
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: so the use case is just for humans to look at the definition?
<tobiasvl>
etqqkoiflwhb: yes blocks are more like anonymous methods (ruby doesn't have functions)
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<apeiros>
RubyPanther: yes, and to possibly execute it
<EminenceHC>
I have a large array (this is just a sample) that looks like this: [[Mon, 21 Apr 2014, 3], [Mon, 14 Apr 2014, 3], [Mon, 17 Mar 2014, 9], [Mon, 17 Mar 2014, 10]] I am trying to get the total of all the second values grouped by common dates. How can I go about doing that?
<tobiasvl>
etqqkoiflwhb: ruby has methods, lambdas, procs and blocks. good luck!
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<apeiros>
RubyPanther: and to possibly create a schema dump
<arubincloud>
EminenceHC: A university linguistics department.
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: I guess I can use that procedure as a starting point anyway
<manacit>
anyone know why rails console would give me `ActiveRecord::AdapterNotSpecified: database configuration does not specify adapter` when I try to query a model, but will connect fine and show the proper settings when I printout `Rails.configuration.database_configuration[Rails.env]`
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<etqqkoiflwhb>
tobiasvl: used all those :) was kinda comparing blocks to javascript's anonymous functions
<manacit>
I know I've got the right environment and database settings because it won't even start up if I don't, but I can't figure out why active record won't connect
<manacit>
it's like AR is looking for a different environment than it should be
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<RubyPanther>
apeiros: sorry I don't use phpmyadmin so I'm trying to understand, when you say "possibly execute it" do you mean pasting it to another db, or changing the table name by hand and executing, or ... ?
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: correct. copy & pasting the sql to reuse it.
<RubyPanther>
I know it has often been said that people design a tool "like phpmyadmin"
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: well, it's been a while since I used phpmyadmin too, since I don't use mysql anymore
<timgauthier>
when they say that sinatra has no page rendering but rails does, what do they mean? I mean i am able to render a page right there with that fancy little get '/' do end block
<apeiros>
hm, close to 10 years now even. time flies :(
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: it seems like it would be useful to have it as a C function
<mikecmpb_>
is array.push() threadsafe in ruby 2?
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: I want it with as little dependency as possible. hence plain-sql favorited, pqplsql acceptable
<mikecmpb_>
i've forgotten.
<apeiros>
mikecmpb_: nothing is thread-safe unless explicitly stated to be.
<mikecmpb_>
apeiros: what do you mean by that?
<RubyPanther>
apeiros: generally it requires more permissions and access to add plsql than to add a .o
<apeiros>
mikecmpb_: I mean if it doesn't say "this method is thread safe", it's not thread safe.
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<RubyPanther>
and then you can use the method from plain SQL
<mikecmpb_>
say where? :|
<apeiros>
in the docs
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<mikecmpb_>
ah okay
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<apeiros>
RubyPanther: wah?
<mikecmpb_>
yeah, i guess, so i should use a mutex around operations on the array?
<RubyPanther>
mikecmpb_: Ruby was born from the *nix world of fork-and-IPC
<centrx>
Threads are a Windows hack!
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: even if it wasn't. it'd be a bad idea to try and make everything thread-safe by default.
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<apeiros>
thread safety is a) not free and b) rarely a blanket thing
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<mikecmpb_>
actually, i'm not relying on the state of the array at any point, so can i just ignore threadsafety?
<apeiros>
mikecmpb_: if you don't have shared access, yes.
<mikecmpb_>
i won't lose items or something
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<apeiros>
mikecmpb_: if you have shared access, no
<mikecmpb_>
okay
<RubyPanther>
mikecmpb_: ignore it until you can't, yes
* mikecmpb_
shrugs.
<mikecmpb_>
i read about this an understood it at one point, i've just forgotten
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<apeiros>
shared read-only access is ok too, but only if you can guarantee that none of that happens before it becomes read-only.
<mikecmpb_>
will that always result in 1000 values?
<apeiros>
centrx: forks don't free you from thread's issues
<mikecmpb_>
<< *
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<centrx>
Threads are used because creating creating processes on Windows is so expensive!
<apeiros>
hm, that said… a new thread-local variable type would actually be nice
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<mikecmpb_>
nvm, i got myself in a confusion, long day.
<RubyPanther>
fork and never share! if you think you need to share, don't... instead, communicate.
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<apeiros>
centrx: ruby before 1.9 doesn't help in that regard. the GC would force the OS to copy the whole memory for the fork.
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<apeiros>
errr, ruby before 2.0
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<horrorvacui>
apeiros: didn't COW go away after 2.0 though?
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<RubyPanther>
There were some COW patches for 1.9, though
<apeiros>
horrorvacui: I thought I had read something to that account, yes. but I haven't really checked for the final release.
<RubyPanther>
No 2.0 brought the COWs
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<apeiros>
I'd hope they kept it, at least for the old-generation GC
<horrorvacui>
Yeah but I was told by a guy that COW gc is going away.
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<RubyPanther>
I mean the COWs were always there, but they used to run away really fast
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<horrorvacui>
That guy maybe stupid idk...
<RubyPanther>
COW-killing GC went away, he must have meant
<apeiros>
RubyPanther: yupp, because gc shat over the whole memory :)
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<apeiros>
no, I read something about 2.1's gc being COW killing again too. but that was prior to final version. and I never checked whether it was a) correct in the first place and b) still applied to the final release.
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<RubyPanther>
if GC wants to mark objects, putting the mark IN the object was screwing up memory management. Moving the mark out to another data structure fixes the problems. That technique can be recycled for any new sort of GC strategy; you just don't put the GC metadata right inside the object
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<RubyPanther>
it was really more of an implementation bug than a limitation of Ruby GC
<horrorvacui>
RubyPanther: I see now. Interesting stuff.
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<RubyPanther>
atmosx: nope, I cross my fingers and trust Rubyists to be good people
<atmosx>
RubyPanther: I figure you believe in heaven and hell too
<RubyPanther>
why is that?
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<RubyPanther>
it doesn't matter if a Buddhist believes in heaven and hell, because it is unskillful to think about what happens before or after this life from inside this life
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<atmosx>
unskillful
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<atmosx>
weird choice of words
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<shevy>
:D
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<RubyPanther>
No, it is standard terminology. It is only killing, stealing/lying, adultery, and drunkenness that are equal to "sins" that might hurt others. Every other rule in Buddhism is not a question of right/wrong but skillful/unskillful.
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<RubyPanther>
There is no bad karma in being an idiot until it hurts somebody else! lol so it isn't "wrong" to think about heaven, unless you use the believe to hurt people. But it is not skillful, it distracts from beneficial thoughts about this life.
<katlogic>
Being a christian is always good karma.
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<agent_white>
Being agent_white is the best karma!
<agent_white>
:D
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<atmosx>
being a christian is easy, everything you have to do is already written, being a buddist seems to be a huge pain
<RubyPanther>
The hard part about being Christian is probably all these churches all over the place that ignore the words of Jesus.
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<timgauthier>
RubyPanther it definitely is the most heartbreaking part
<shevy>
it takes no skills to believe in old fantasy novels
<RubyPanther>
atmosx: A Buddhist lay-person has very few rules other than the basic 4, and try to be good
<horrorvacui>
RubyPanther: Like Apocrypha?
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<LadyRainicorn>
There are 5 precepts, not 4, though we tend not to follow the last one so much.
<horrorvacui>
Why and what is it?
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<shevy>
the tenet of free sex
<atmosx>
So did Jesus really say thoese words after all didn't he?
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<RubyPanther>
LadyRainicorn: That is just for monks
<atmosx>
Yeap, Ancient Greeks were never sex-hungry apparently
<atmosx>
romans either
<LadyRainicorn>
To refrain from intoxicants
<LadyRainicorn>
And because intoxicants are so widely used.
<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha even said that lay-people can eat meat
<horrorvacui>
I see. I'm an atheist although fascinated by religion.
<LadyRainicorn>
No, monks have a separate code.
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<LadyRainicorn>
(It has 111, I think, and nuns have another hundred)
<LadyRainicorn>
Also vegetarianism isn't a prohibition at all.
<LadyRainicorn>
The Buddha himself wasn't vegetarian.
<RubyPanther>
In modern times stealing and lying are generally lumped together as a single rule of being honest, that is why it is common to talk about 4 instead of 5. There is no extra rule with 5.
<dorei>
let's become breatharians :)
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<horrorvacui>
wtf is breatharians?
<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha wasn't a total vegetarian, but he was a moral vegetarian
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<dorei>
horrorvacui: those that live only on breathing :D and maybe sun
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<LadyRainicorn>
Killing, theft, sexual misconduct, lying, intoxication
<LadyRainicorn>
In that order.
<RubyPanther>
Which is to say he would eat leftovers containing meat, but not if he suspected it might have been killed/purchased to feed to him.
<LadyRainicorn>
(Though the precepts are not quite so cut and dry)
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<LadyRainicorn>
Yes, that is the code for monksm
<horrorvacui>
dorei: So I can't eat or drink? No wonder I've never heard of them. They die the moment they convert.
<horrorvacui>
They*
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<metamaterial>
define this misconduct which is worse than a lie
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<metamaterial>
oh hahah adultry ?
<LadyRainicorn>
Adultery
<LadyRainicorn>
Also sex with monks and nuns
<LadyRainicorn>
Rape
<metamaterial>
lol
<RubyPanther>
"sexual misconduct" is a poor translation, it mostly covers adultery but does not cover premarital sex, which if the other party is not religious is not a violation of the precept, but violates Right Living and is unskillful
<LadyRainicorn>
coercion, etc.
<dorei>
horrorvacui: i think they have an entry @ wikipedia though :D
<metamaterial>
sorry was laughing at the sex w/ nuns
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<LadyRainicorn>
Sex with protected persons (children, mentally disabled)
<LadyRainicorn>
That sort of thing.
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<metamaterial>
that should have been writeen in the bible
<shevy>
waaa
<RubyPanther>
for example a Buddhist may not have sex with a Christian girl, even if she says yes, because her dhama, her religious teaching, forbids it. But if she is a pagan then it is not so bad, you're only hurting your OWN darma.
<shevy>
they eat animals!
<LadyRainicorn>
That is not really how sexual misconduct works.
<agent_white>
I'm glad I'm athiest. I dont need no fancy shit to tell me how to be a good person.
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<LadyRainicorn>
The dhamma is universal.
<RubyPanther>
it is also a violation if she has accepted ribbons from another man and wears them in her hair
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<horrorvacui>
RubyPanther: What about an atheist? Does that mean you can rape an atheist since there is no concepts adhered to technically?
<shevy>
agent_white yay!
<LadyRainicorn>
Literally, though that basically means "has a boyfriend"
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<RubyPanther>
horrorvacui: No, consent is in there.
<horrorvacui>
Okay just being a dummy, you covered that.
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<horrorvacui>
Buddhism sounds so accepting.
<LadyRainicorn>
No, RP is misrepresenting it. It's not really dependent on the beliefs of the other person.
<LadyRainicorn>
Generally speaking, yes.
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<RubyPanther>
If she: is married, has a bf, is protected by her father or brothers, doesn't consent, can't consent, or it violates her religious beliefs, then it is banned
<agent_white>
Buddhism just sounds like... "be a good dude, and all is good, dude."
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<shevy>
agent_white the big lebowski
<agent_white>
I can get down with that.
<RubyPanther>
dhamma means religious teaching, a Christian's dhamma is the Bible
<shevy>
though he was often drunk
<horrorvacui>
Does buddhism have a bad side?
<RubyPanther>
there is also a different concept of universal dhamma
<metamaterial>
so a girl can consent but a monk will turn her down because she thinks she's christian?
<horrorvacui>
I mean seems like I remember some kind of warrior Buddhists who killed a lot of christians or something.
<shevy>
horrorvacui the monthly blood sacrifice on an altar
<LadyRainicorn>
Well the core of the dhamma is about enlightenment, but most Buddhists are mostly just trying to accumulate merit.
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<RubyPanther>
horrorvacui: as a religion there are certainly members of the religion that have done bad things in its name
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<LadyRainicorn>
There are some extremists, for example in Myanmar.
<LadyRainicorn>
Not terribly many though.
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<metamaterial>
TIL monks are karma whores
<agent_white>
^
<benzrf>
metamaterial: heheheh
<horrorvacui>
So they monks spend a lot of time on reddit
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<LadyRainicorn>
Monks are prohibited from sex, among many other things.
* metamaterial
has seen Amish selling stuff on iPhones
<agent_white>
LadyRainicorn: Because?
<LadyRainicorn>
Also the goal is not to accumulate karma, but to reach liberation.
<metamaterial>
good thing they're patient.
<horrorvacui>
lol
<LadyRainicorn>
Because nibhanna, the ultimate goal, is a very different path from accumulating meritm
<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha said never to believe something because it is written, because a great person said, because he said it, or whatever. You only compare those teachings to your own experience and believe what matches your experience. So anything bad in Buddhism should be rejected.
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<timgauthier>
what the heck are we talking about here? :P
<agent_white>
Oh no I mean why can't monks do the dirty?
<agent_white>
timgauthier: Monk sex
<LadyRainicorn>
It is a meditative thing, which requires more or less total concentration.
<timgauthier>
haha nice
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<shevy>
timgauthier weed
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<horrorvacui>
So does Buddhism believe in divinity and magical shit?
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<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: I was accused of believing in Heaven on account of the fact that I trust Rubyists to be good people and not harm me with malicious gems, so I was explaining that to a Buddhist worrying about heaven or talking about heaven is unskillful even if you believe in it
<LadyRainicorn>
We believe in reincarnation and karma, but no gods really.
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<metamaterial>
monks can't sex because Siddhartha catch 22 them
<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha did believe in Heaven, but he told people not to even ask about it
<horrorvacui>
LadyRainicorn: So you are almost atheists.
<LadyRainicorn>
Well, no?
<horrorvacui>
Atheists = no gods
<agent_white>
RubyPanther: Heaven or enlightenment? Or are they interchangable in that sense?
<RubyPanther>
There is no catch-22, it is a standard concept that monks cannot exist without laypeople
<horrorvacui>
So you are atheists.
<LadyRainicorn>
Atheists deny the existence of an objectivr moral framework.
<RubyPanther>
agent_white: no
<horrorvacui>
Thats a bit more than an Atheist.
<agent_white>
^
<horrorvacui>
Some atheists believe that.
<LadyRainicorn>
Buddhism posits the existence of karma, which is a physical law, albeit unlike field theories.
<timgauthier>
from my experience with buddhism and buddhists is that none of them can actually objectively say what all of them believe as it is a very personal thing for each person. which i think is pretty cool. I say this as a Christian
<Hanmac1>
LadyRainicorn: Shintoism is funny ... because every single shit is a god or has a god ;P
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<LadyRainicorn>
There are no gods, and the Buddha does notbhave the power to save everyone unilaterally.
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<agent_white>
LadyRainicorn: I would think it is a nihilist that doesn't believe in any existance of a moral framework.
<LadyRainicorn>
So it is closer to atheism than Abrahamic religions I suppose, but really neither.
<horrorvacui>
Sounds like buddhism is atheism + karma.
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<timgauthier>
horrorvacui naw its not
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<LadyRainicorn>
Yes basically?
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<timgauthier>
someone could in theory be a buddhist christian
<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha had no more power than any other human, his power was believed to be person; he was personally free from the cycle of life and death, and also able to teach
<LadyRainicorn>
Not consistently.
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<metamaterial>
i think only assholes and lice don't believe in a moral framework. everything else cares, somewhat.
<dorei>
what about buddhist magic?
<RubyPanther>
You can consistently be a Buddhist Christian, no problem
<timgauthier>
depends on the teacher you follow LadyRainicorn ;)
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<agent_white>
metamaterial: And spiders
<timgauthier>
and PHPDevs
<horrorvacui>
just a reminder atheist don't have an agreement on morals
<agent_white>
Goddamned PHP devs
<LadyRainicorn>
The Christian god doesn't obey karma.
<RubyPanther>
individual Buddhist and Christian temples/churches might reject you, but Siddhartha said to reject teachings that don't match your experience.
<LadyRainicorn>
It would be incompatible.
<LadyRainicorn>
Also we have reincarnation, which is incompatible.
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<dorei>
i think that tibetan buddhism is full of magic :)
<RubyPanther>
it is unskillful to think about reincarnation, you can be a Buddhist and not even believe in that
<LadyRainicorn>
I am a Therevada Buddhist, which id quite different.
<RubyPanther>
I am a Theravada Buddhist, that is why I know
<LadyRainicorn>
There is a more or less omnipotent being in Mahayana.
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<LadyRainicorn>
That said, Mahayana is very different from what the Buddha taught in most of his lifetime, even as acknowledged by them.
<RubyPanther>
In Theravada Buddhism it is expected to follow the teachings of Siddhartha, not whatever some random temple teaches
<timgauthier>
LadyRainicorn not all buddhists believe in reincarnation
<LadyRainicorn>
(They claim it was a precursor and he had a secret teaching later.)
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<LadyRainicorn>
My answers are based on the Pali canon. There are, of course, numerous interpretatiobs that conflict with it.
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<shevy>
LadyRainicorn is a rainbow buddhist with happiness rays
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<timgauthier>
shevy :P
<LadyRainicorn>
But the Pali canon is generally considered to be pretty accurate from a historical perspective, and it's pretty obvious reincarnation was a big part of the Buddha's teaching.
<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha clearly believed in God, believed in demi-Gods, believed in Heaven/Hell, believed in reincarnation, but none of these are what he said to learn about. Instead you're supposed to learn about how to let go of attachment. Thinking about reincarnation reinforces attachment to life, desire to live again, it is unskillful.
<timgauthier>
as i said earlier, my experience with buddhism and buddhists is that you can not speak for all buddhists as they differ
* Hanmac1
has seen the light in a dream ... it was very creepy
<LadyRainicorn>
The Buddha didn't believe in anythibg like the Christian god.
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<timgauthier>
my experience with the monks of tibet and discussions with them have shown me that
<timgauthier>
LadyRainicorn yes, but he also did not say it was impossible
<LadyRainicorn>
The canon mentions Brahma, but he is not really the same thing.
<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha believed in a single over-powering God and Devil
<agent_white>
LadyRainicorn: I'm not relgious, but I did go with my buddhist buddy to one of his prayer dealies (one where they chant that 'nam-myoho' thing)... it was pretty cool.
<LadyRainicorn>
Mara was more of a metaphor.
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<LadyRainicorn>
There are other entities that are physical, but Mara is obviously a personification of evil, at least mostly.
<timgauthier>
from what i've understood LadyRainicorn these are more concepts
<LadyRainicorn>
Brahma is much more likely to be a literal "deity", but it's still fuzzy there.
<timgauthier>
and their actualization depends deeply on the personal practice of each buddhist
<horrorvacui>
I love how its a money tree, with money tapped to it.
<LadyRainicorn>
There are many takes on all religions, but again, just going from canon here.
<timgauthier>
could you please fill out this form and describe to me in detail how you would like me to identify you?
<timgauthier>
LadyRainicorn but from what i've learned there is no such thing as a canon
<RubyPanther>
The problem with pinning down what he meant by Brahma is that when people asked about afterlife or gods, he consistently told them to focus on this life. Those details were only for the story-form teaching, not for the actual application
<Hanmac>
timgauthier: why not both?
<timgauthier>
there are buddhests who take things as canon, and there are buddhists who do not
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<LadyRainicorn>
The life of the historical Buddha is really well documented
<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: that is Mahayana Buddhism, they still have the Pali Canon but they don't read it
<timgauthier>
but then thats like the phrasees that we see today basing on the life of Christ, but completely ignoring the words he actually spoke
<LadyRainicorn>
The Pali canon is the name of those teachings, along with some others.
* Hanmac
saw some kind of afterlife in a dream ... was not worth it
<timgauthier>
it is not about the letters of the law, it is the spirit that should be observed and lived.
<metamaterial>
shhh
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<RubyPanther>
Pali Canon is the 30 years of earthly teachings of Siddhartha, as recorded by his scribes
<LadyRainicorn>
Christianity is very different because it's not very well documented.
<timgauthier>
LadyRainicorn i would disagree but thats fine
<RubyPanther>
Jesus only taught for 3 years and didn't have scribes.
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<LadyRainicorn>
Whereas the life of Siddharta Gautima is very well documented.
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<metamaterial>
i thought all Jesus did was throw some predatory lender banker out of the temple?
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<timgauthier>
RubyPanther true, but his live was then documented by a great number of people of the time
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<metamaterial>
the rest was folklore =P
<tobiasvl>
come one #ruby I leave your for half an hour and this is what happens
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<LadyRainicorn>
(He was a prince, had an enormous following in his lifetime, had many people transcribing his teachings, etc)
<agent_white>
tobiasvl: #rubyligion
<timgauthier>
tobiasvl what? you think you can police this place? its like herding cats
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<RubyPanther>
Get a bible with only the words of Jesus, it is what, 3 pages? Words of Siddhartha is the size of Encyclopedia Britannica
<horrorvacui>
FSM believes that pirates are nice.
<timgauthier>
i don't tend to get into religious discussions, so i'm not sure why i am in one now lol
<RubyPanther>
You don't have to be religious to be a Buddhist, you can be a secular Buddhist.
<LadyRainicorn>
Anyway, Buddhism could still be totally made up, but the Buddha is definitrly real.
<LadyRainicorn>
That's not really disputable historically.
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<RubyPanther>
Siddhartha taught to reject religious belief, to believe what you understand not what you're told... teachings are ideas to consider
<myke>
anything that happened thousands of years ago is disputable historically
<LadyRainicorn>
It's just a really different levrl of documentation.
<timgauthier>
RubyPanther wow, i like that
<LadyRainicorn>
Julius Ceasar?
<timgauthier>
RubyPanther it is what i try to follow in my own christen walk
<LadyRainicorn>
The Buddha has similar levels of documentation.
<LadyRainicorn>
It would be an enormous undertaking to fake it.
<horrorvacui>
I wonder if you could ask for fridays off if you claim FSM.
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<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: they asked the Dali Llama if Christians should convert to Buddhism, he said if they get comfort from their beliefs they should keep them.
<myke>
because nobody ever changed things along the way to further current political purposes
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<agent_white>
Isn't there some big deal with the Dalai Lama being held in China? -- something like China influencing the 'finding' of the Dalai Lama?
<LadyRainicorn>
Yes, it is an issue.
<agent_white>
It sounds sad :(
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<RubyPanther>
China claims to own Tibet because they were both ruled by Mongolia at the same time.
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<LadyRainicorn>
Anyway, those interested in the life of the Buddha should /r/AskHistorians for a secular perspective.
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<timgauthier>
RubyPanther yah i remember reading that
<RubyPanther>
If western governments would call them on the Mongolia part, it could free Tibet IMO. But instead they moralize about "freedom," and look naive to the Chinese.
<LadyRainicorn>
But they will point you to oodles of documentation.
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<timgauthier>
RubyPanther what mongolia part.. maybe i need to go to /r/geography myself
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<benzrf>
warning: RubyPanther is full of shit
<metamaterial>
what country is on the other side of the monks or dali lama or whatever
<Hanmac>
about tibet, looking from the financial view ... is it worth it for china to be angry about it? (i mean losing tibet, would it break china?)
<metamaterial>
it goes like, china, monk land, islam, right?
<LadyRainicorn>
It would be bad politically.
<RubyPanther>
benzrf: Only because I eat too much cheese, but my wife says I'll live a long time because I'm so regular
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<metamaterial>
so china is just helping out make sure the monks land doesnt get owned by al quaida
<benzrf>
RubyPanther: lel
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<RubyPanther>
Tibetan Buddhism is headquartered in India because of Chinese control of Tibet
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<RubyPanther>
so China will only be choosing a local fake-Llama
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<LadyRainicorn>
The Dalai Llama did say he wasn't going to reincarnate into Chinese territory.
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<metamaterial>
way to hold a grudge, mr let go of everything.
<RubyPanther>
metamaterial: If you look at Thailand and Burma, I'm not sure the Buddhists need that much protection. Terrorism just doesn't terrify Buddhists the way it does everybody else.
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<metamaterial>
i'm saying those Buddhists are violent terrorists.
* LadyRainicorn
sends loving kindness towards the terrorists.
<RubyPanther>
if 50 people are killed by terrorists in southern Thailand, and 1 protester is killed in Bangkok, the Thai news mostly worries about the protester
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<metamaterial>
dude a government killed a protestor? what?
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<metamaterial>
(=
<LadyRainicorn>
haha
<RubyPanther>
Dude, hundreds of protesters die every year in Thailand, good luck figuring out who shot them
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<LadyRainicorn>
Hundreds may be an exaggeration, usually.
<RubyPanther>
thousands are killed by terrorists, too
<timgauthier>
designers are really... really.. really weird people
<timgauthier>
and really opinionated
<RubyPanther>
if we mean the last few years, hundreds per year is a precise measure
<timgauthier>
like programmers are too, but in a different way
<LadyRainicorn>
Many people are weird.
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<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: if designers weren't weirdos, there would be a catalog of 1000 normal designs, and you'd just click on one, and there would be no new designers
<timgauthier>
yeah thats true
<timgauthier>
but what is weird is that they seem more like the 1000 normal designs
<RubyPanther>
we have such catalogs, but clients want every rounded corner to be unique and artsy
<timgauthier>
like, they are all clinging to wordpress
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<timgauthier>
saying how much money they've made and that if they even dared mention a different CMS they'ed magically lose their clients...
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<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: wordpress allows designers to leverage programming features without being programmers, it is natural. It lets them be in the role of consultant, and move the programmer into a sub-contractor role
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<timgauthier>
like the very idea of mentioning "hey, wordpress isn't what i would recommend for your sites back end" would send them spiralling into the depths of mount bancrupt
<timgauthier>
maybe thats it
<timgauthier>
but the problem extends into the very act of design too i find in many cases designers have turned themselves into production artists. just drawing what the client asks for.
<RubyPanther>
it is the difference between making logos for $20/hr or being a consultant making $200/hr
<RubyPanther>
That is what the client wants
<timgauthier>
Boring unoriginal and crappy design for 100$ an hour and calling it design.. no one thought out the process of using the site, or how much hosting is going to cost now due to overhead for bloatware you've installed to the server, or the fact that browsing your homepage kills my battery in 30 seconds
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<RubyPanther>
the client either already knows what they want, so they don't need to hire a fancy consultant to charge them thousands of dollars to tell them to want something else
<timgauthier>
yes, that *is* what the client wants, someone who just draws the picture they have in their head. But they NEED someone who take that picture, ponders it, and comes up with a perfect solution
<RubyPanther>
or they don't have the money and know they have to trust some designer to plug in the right wordpress plugins
<timgauthier>
but they would be happier if they had someone tell them what they want
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<LadyRainicorn>
Pssh, clients.
<timgauthier>
lol
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<RubyPanther>
They wouldn't be happier, they'd pay $15k and their idiot website would still not be the facebook killer they imagined
<timgauthier>
the truth is, my last hobby job was to tell people what they wanted and not sell them what they thought they wanted
<RubyPanther>
the vast majority of those clients have a real non-web business and they just need a do-it-yourself level website, but aren't tech nerds so they can't do-it-themself
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<RubyPanther>
a lot of the rest just need a simple "web store" to sell something, and they can build a real website later if they get a lot of sales
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<timgauthier>
RubyPanther yeah, i like to imagine there is a market for people who WANT to have a good site and offer a good web product but think it will be way more expensive then it needs to be, or that they have no choice but to hire a shitty wordpress installing "designer"
<timgauthier>
ruby aha! but they won't get lots of sales if their webstore sucks!
<RubyPanther>
IMO the real problem is these designers should be leaning more heavily on OSCommerce instead of wordpress
<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: if their product doesn't sell itself, their under-funded shoestrings project will fail anyways
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<timgauthier>
yes/no
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<timgauthier>
a product can be great, but a terrible webstore can hamstring quite easily
<RubyPanther>
a lot of time what makes or breaks these guys is getting on the local news, or not
<timgauthier>
now that said, a lot of the dedicated web commerce solutions do a good job at that for us
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<timgauthier>
thats the area my brain focuses on though, do you go to the shitty supermarket where the staff are mean and the isles dark and you have no idea where shit is..
<RubyPanther>
most of my clients have been saddled with such awful business plans they had no hope of success
<timgauthier>
or do you go to the bright clean one
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<RubyPanther>
and anything that saves them money is less money they'll lose
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<timgauthier>
yeah
<timgauthier>
see i'm not usually building an app, so thats not so much the same location for me
<RubyPanther>
timgauthier: if all your products fit on one page, people will find them. And you won't even need a catalog, you can just use "buy now" type buttons generated by the payment processor
<timgauthier>
yes
<timgauthier>
definitely :)
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<timgauthier>
my last project was a site that had been using wordpress to sell online video based training
<RubyPanther>
and a wordpress page that is designed that way, then the designer just has to make the CSS pretty and the store is clean and bright... right?
<timgauthier>
or a static page
<RubyPanther>
I mean, until the plugins turn out to be crufty and buggy
<timgauthier>
or something smaller and more simple then wordpress
<timgauthier>
:P but yeah
<myke>
wordpress has a lock on the mindset of corporate america
<timgauthier>
myke naw
<myke>
my boss wants to go with wordpress even though he's unable to formulate any reasons why
<timgauthier>
wordpress has a lock on the lazy ass designers of america ;)
<katlogic>
Is wordpress the godwin of #ruby?
<timgauthier>
who don't want to do their job to sell a good solution
<katlogic>
Are there any wordpress deniers?
<RubyPanther>
a few years ago Ruby was inundated by designers trying to learn rails. I'm so glad something else is cool now!
<timgauthier>
i don't know what godwin is... but i hate wordpress myself as a designer
<timgauthier>
*cough* designer trying to learn rails...
<myke>
the problem is non-technical people don't get the plugin mess that's hidden
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<myke>
so to them any other cms is just more work for same result
<atmosx>
RubyPanther: railsis tricky, easy to learn hard to master
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<RubyPanther>
but they should go back to wordpress/OSCommerce
<katlogic>
#node.js is all the rage and sorrov
<myke>
because the backend/dev has no meaning and hence no value to them
<atmosx>
s/rails is/rails are
<katlogic>
thank god rails hype is over
<katlogic>
now its just hurr durr rails so insecure or whatevs
<timgauthier>
the trick myke is to teach them the badness of their original decision and then show them the joy and how much easier a different solution is for them.
<atmosx>
I'm going to bed, bbl
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<timgauthier>
cya atmosx
<RubyPanther>
rails sucks, ruby sucks, it is all true. If you don't <3 Ruby so much to use such a sucky language, you should be using PHP or Javascript.
<myke>
timgauthier: what's weird is we had outsourced wp site that was months over due and schedule and had all kinds of problems...then the designer and i did a barebones site in a month that's nearly as feature complete...but boss still wants to forge ahead with wordpress
<timgauthier>
RubyPanther programming sucks, but is really useful
<RubyPanther>
I <3 Ruby so much when I started with rails we were deploying as CGI... and liking it!
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<timgauthier>
your boss is an idiot needing someone to tell him
<timgauthier>
or someone needs to figure out the kickback he's getting from that outsource
<katlogic>
Either is slow noone could really tell the difference.
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<katlogic>
hurr durr is ruby2 real thing now?
<myke>
timgauthier: i really think it's that wordpress has incredible "mindshare" these days...i mean everyone's using it so it must be great right??
<myke>
i think this is also how tech stocks get hugely overvalued
<timgauthier>
yeah that makes sense
<timgauthier>
i intend to make my entire business out of being not wordpress
<deepy>
I think I love you timgauthier
<myke>
i tried to ferret out specific things that he thought were better in wp but every one we had in our homebrew system
<timgauthier>
and i see these 'designers' telling new designers that it is a waste of time and doesn't make any business sense but to learn wordpress
<deepy>
But I don't know if it's because of my feelings towards Wordpress
<timgauthier>
deepy its okay man,
<timgauthier>
we can bond
<katlogic>
Porting wordpress to ruby is a noble goal.
<horrorvacui>
designers are consumed by trends, what do you expect :P
<RubyPanther>
No, it is an evil abomination
<myke>
i think non-techs think wp is a separate thing at the level of a server
<RubyPanther>
wordpress is awesome right where it is, it doesn't need to live in our garage
<myke>
because boss keeps talking about "learn wordpress" like that's a thing
<deepy>
Porting the WordPress admin panel to a ruby app would be cool though
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<RubyPanther>
if you want to port wordpress, port it to C and then you can add bindings for any language
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<timgauthier>
haha nice
<RubyPanther>
then you can rails as the delivery mechanism, and still have PHP plugins
<Hanmac>
they its possible ;P
<timgauthier>
lol
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<timgauthier>
i don't suggest it
<katlogic>
hue
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<timgauthier>
i suggest you chop off all of your fingers on both of your hands
<deepy>
Sure you can port WordPress, but why would you want to?
<timgauthier>
toes too, just so you never program again
<RubyPanther>
I could make a boatload of money, if I didn't jump off a cliff halfway through
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<mg^>
wow I always look at this channel at exactly the wrong time
<katlogic>
Wordpress is so perfect here are hardly viable ways to improve it :/
<mg^>
I hate wordpress. It's like a curse.
<katlogic>
You're bad christian mg^.
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<mg^>
Well, that's probably true as well.
<RubyPanther>
Yeah, wordpress is the least among us... lolol
<katlogic>
mg^: I thought this place was always like this, vipping nonsense.
<mg^>
it is
<mg^>
But talk of porting WP to Ruby? Crazy talk!
<deepy>
mg^: I found a solution to that problem
<deepy>
sectioning
<mg^>
Much better to start with a series of lessons learned from WP implementations, and then create something better in Ruby.
<mg^>
timgauthier: I'm a terrible programmer, not the project for me
<katlogic>
Well, maybe ruby inside that facebook php vm thing would actually run fast.
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<mg^>
I do systems programming on text terminals :)
<RubyPanther>
You don't need Ruby to embed Ruby, only C
<katlogic>
I mean thanks to ruby people dont event complain that python is slow anymore.
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<timgauthier>
python is ugly
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<horrorvacui>
timgauthier: take it back
<horrorvacui>
:P
<timgauthier>
:P
<timgauthier>
nope
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<timgauthier>
node is nicer looking
<RubyPanther>
was python ever slow? I thought is sucked for strictly aesthetic reasons
<mg^>
I'm going with timgauthier on that
<timgauthier>
and that shits hieroglyphic
<horrorvacui>
wtf is wrong with you?
<horrorvacui>
node is nicer pssh
<timgauthier>
:P
<timgauthier>
at least its faster too :O!
<horrorvacui>
true true
<timgauthier>
is there any programming languages written in korean? that'd be rad!
<RubyPanther>
People should have known Python would suck. COBOL already taught us not to have meaningful whitespace.
<horrorvacui>
Twisted is nicer imo, so is eventmachine
<horrorvacui>
I hate node :(
<mg^>
someone embedded a PHP runtime inside of a Ruby runtime...
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<mg^>
Ada might as well be implemented in Korean.
<horrorvacui>
Okay I don't hate node but it's hyped
<RubyPanther>
I did embed Ruby in COBOL
<myke>
COBOL has meaningful starting columns
<myke>
not the same
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<katlogic>
mmm, ROBOL has a nice ring to it
<myke>
python only has relative offsets
<horrorvacui>
COBOL has hoisting :P kinda
<mg^>
I think it's Ada that has all of the unusual symbols
<katlogic>
Sexist.
<mg^>
Jeeze, that reminds me that I had to buy a commercial COBOL compiler for an organization just 3 years ago.
<horrorvacui>
They probably still teach cobol at my uni
<horrorvacui>
A lot of businesses still use it and beg my uni to keep the classes around.
<RubyPanther>
yikes, I thought opencobol had taken over
<mg^>
No, not Ada. I'll think of it.
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<mg^>
This was for a public utility, they are running Banner for their customer info system.
<katlogic>
horrorvacui: Can't they just switch over to excel tables / ms access / vb6 / sybase like normal people do?
<RubyPanther>
I'd rather embed opencobol in a db procedure than get stuck with that crap
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<katlogic>
Well, its the only way for an accountant to actually express paycheck processing
<katlogic>
when you scrap cobol that is
<mg^>
APL... that's the language that has all of the unusual symbols.
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<katlogic>
Special keyboards, custom font banks yay.
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<katlogic>
I suppose APL was joke language who some misunderstood as serious attempt, like haskell today.
<mg^>
could be
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<mg^>
and I totally agree with that assessment of haskell
<agarie>
Ada isn't a bad language imo
<mg^>
People accuse me of having mashed on the keyboard to produce some of the Perl I've written.
<agarie>
there are some cool ideas in it
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<mg^>
Haskell is proof that you can mash on the keyboard and pass it off as a program.
<agarie>
e.g. runtime value checking
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<horrorvacui>
I know my COBOL instructor swore there was no replacement to this date for COBOL and I took it upon myself to write some python to replace her example.
<RubyPanther>
APL was from Harvard, of course it looks like a joke to us serfs
<horrorvacui>
She had it out for me from then on.
<RubyPanther>
She's right, too
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<RubyPanther>
There is no replacement for COBOL because python probably doesn't even compile on 70s minis
<metamaterial>
heh
<horrorvacui>
Well tbh this was some years ago. I made it sound recent.
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<RubyPanther>
Well it was even more true in the past
<horrorvacui>
About 3-4 years ago
<RubyPanther>
I only learned COBOL for Y2K, and I was already shocked how many people were still platform-locked into it
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<RubyPanther>
most of the people who still had COBOL by 2001 probably still have it
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<horrorvacui>
Yeah she learned it to fix the Y2K problem herself and was often contracted to do stuff for a lot of banks and corporations around the area.
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<omosoj>
My answer seems to work with lower numbers.
<RubyPanther>
omosoj: I see a problem and some code, but no questions
<LiquidInsect>
without any real context (as I haven't started that problem yet), as is the case with most Project Euler problems, a naïve algorithm is going to take far too long
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<LiquidInsect>
and that looks at first glance to be a naïve algorithm
<omosoj>
I'm trying to solve the question 'what's the first triangle number with >500 divisors?' with that script.
<havenwood>
omosoj: nice to write `y += x` instead of `y = x + y` and `x += 1` instead of `x = x + 1`
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<havenwood>
omosoj: it's just too slow
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<LiquidInsect>
The first thing I leanred from Project Euler is that I don't know much math
<omosoj>
LiquidInsect, yeah I guess it's a pretty primitive solution.
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<omosoj>
havenwood, ok, I'll change that stuff.
<omosoj>
Aha, an answer was just returned. Lol. Took a few minutes.
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<omosoj>
Nope... I lowered it from 500 to 200... so I have the answer to that.
<LiquidInsect>
at that rate, think how long 500 will take
<LiquidInsect>
you need to learn the theory behind the problem
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<LiquidInsect>
but take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm still working on #3
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<omosoj>
Gah. Are there any other popular problem sets to practice Ruby on?
<LiquidInsect>
ruby koans? if you're trying to learn programming and syntax, and not math or algorithms
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<LiquidInsect>
Euler is an awesome problem set but it depends on what you want to learn
<LiquidInsect>
it's not the way to learn Ruby necessarily
<omosoj>
I've done those.
<alpha123>
Euler is great if you want to learn math, but pretty bad for actually learning languages.
<omosoj>
K, maybe I should find something else to practice with.
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<EminenceHC>
How can I sum the integers in this array who have the same date? [[Mon, 21 Apr 2014, 3], [Mon, 14 Apr 2014, 3], [Mon, 21 Apr 2014, 3]] I would like the result to be: [[Mon, 21 Apr 2014, 6], [Mon, 14 Apr 2014, 3]]
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<EminenceHC>
How can I sum the integers in this array who have the same date? [[Mon, 21 Apr 2014, 3], [Mon, 14 Apr 2014, 3], [Mon, 21 Apr 2014, 3]] I would like the result to be: [[Mon, 21 Apr 2014, 6], [Mon, 14 Apr 2014, 3]]
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<lethjakman>
is there an easy way to export an array to CSV?
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<mg^>
that's even better than what I thought of
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<mg^>
but I'm relatively new to Ruby
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<horrorvacui>
I like the block parameter trick with (date, n) getting assigned from the array. I just never think of those awesome tricks sadly.
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<EminenceHC>
Thank you SO much havenwood!
<mg^>
I knew there had to be a better way that didn't have to actually name the hash
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<mg^>
yeah that's a cool trick, too
<omosoj>
So I created a new rails project and a model named people. I have a text file with a list of people. What is the best way to put them in the database?
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<benzrf>
omosoj: why not manually load it up using a replay
<benzrf>
*REPL
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<benzrf>
somethin like 'people_lines = File.read("peeps.txt").split("\n")'
<benzrf>
etc
<benzrf>
or use CSV.parse if its a csv
<horrorvacui>
omosoj: production or what?
<omosoj>
benzrf, I don't know what that is, but I'll look it up.
<omosoj>
benzrf, ok I'll try that.
<omosoj>
horrorvacui, sorry don't understand the question (I'm new).
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<omosoj>
benzrf, do I need to put the file in the assets directory to do this?
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<benzrf>
omosoj: wuh?
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<lethjakman>
horrorvacui: I don't know why I didn't think of that, thank you :)
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<lethjakman>
only thing I could ask for is for it to automatically recognize rows based off of a hash.
<lethjakman>
s/only/only other/
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<omosoj>
lol
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<horrorvacui>
omosoj: is the data just test data?
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<horrorvacui>
omosoj: Are you working by yourself on the project?
<omosoj>
I'd like to organize it and run some calculations on it, maybe do some data visualization, depending on what I'm capable of.
<omosoj>
horrorvacui, yes, it's a personal project to learn.
<horrorvacui>
The reason I ask is the database needs to be in a consistent state for others not to encounter problems.
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<omosoj>
Hmm. Well if it's relevant, the data wont change. I can upload it and there will be no new data streaming in or whatever.
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<horrorvacui>
omosoj: Then I think the suggestion to use a simple repl method of inputting it would be useful. Also if the data is CSV you can use the std library CSV to parse and just simply Model.create!
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<horrorvacui>
Just like benzrf said
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<omosoj>
Ok, thanks.
<dorei>
btw, is there some magic gem that would help me (automate ) with creating simple cli tools for adding/deleting to my Models ?
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<centrx>
dorei, thor?
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<dorei>
let me check it
<centrx>
dorei, With Rails, use rails runner
<centrx>
You can run anything in your app's environment
<centrx>
rake of course
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<centrx>
dorei, What are you trying to do exactly
<horrorvacui>
Yeah I'd think about doing that with rake + rails runner
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<dorei>
centrx: i have some sequel models and i want to be able to add/delete from there from the command line
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<dorei>
i guess i need some simple controllers and cli wrapper to them
<EminenceHC>
What is the best way to convert all nil values to 0 in this simple array? [[Mon, 21 Apr 2014, nil], [Mon, 14 Apr 2014, nil]]
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<centrx>
array.each { |x| x[2].to_i }
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<centrx>
>> x[2] = x[2].to_i
<eval-in__>
centrx => undefined local variable or method `x' for main:Object (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/141451)
<centrx>
or x = 0 if x.nil?
<centrx>
x[2]
<horrorvacui>
You can also give the array constructor a size and default value
<horrorvacui>
EminenceHC: ^
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<horrorvacui>
or now that I see what you are asking that wouldn't be useful
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