apeiros_ changed the topic of #ruby to: Ruby 2.1.2; 2.0.0-p481; 1.9.3-p545: http://ruby-lang.org || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com || this channel is logged at http://irclog.whitequark.org, other public logging is prohibited
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<cantonic> hi there. can anyone tell me why I cannot access @grade within this class: https://gist.github.com/cantonic/81b7944b5e4b1ee0ca91
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<Altonymous> I opened this issue, https://github.com/brianmario/yajl-ruby/issues/143. However, it's not specific to his gem. It appears to be ruby specific. If anyone can lend a hand parsing that JSON file I'd really appreciate it.
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<ponga> http://pastie.org/9328659 it only 'puts' once , i need help
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<ponga> should i include .each in the method so it could iterate over
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<gr33n7007h> >> arr = %w(python ruby rails); def test(*args); args.each do |arg|; puts "#{arg} is fun"; end; test(*arr)
<eval-in> gr33n7007h => /tmp/execpad-1c0dd71d5d56/source-1c0dd71d5d56:7: syntax error, unexpected end-of-input, expecting keyword_end (https://eval.in/167338)
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<gr33n7007h> >> arr = %w(python ruby rails); def test(*args); args.each do |arg|; puts "#{arg} is fun"; end; end; test(*arr)
<eval-in> gr33n7007h => python is fun ... (https://eval.in/167339)
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<gr33n7007h> ponga, http://pastie.org/9328670
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<ponga> gr33n7007h: thank you sir
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<n88> ok so can someone look at my code without hating me... it's supposed to loop through an array of webhosts and check whether they are up in down.. it works when I use it as an instance method on one object but doesn't fail gracefully in an array of sites that may or may not be up
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<mozzarella> so, what happens?
<n88> well its a recurring background process in sidekiq with sidetiq
<n88> i updated the gist
<n88> with the error
<n88> Net::OpenTimeout uncaught error
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<n88> but i'm rescuing Timeout::Error i thought...
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<mozzarella> I think it's a different error
<sevenseacat> Net::openTimeout isnt the same thing as Timeout::Error
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<n88> should i wrap everything in another begin and catch Net::OpenTimeout
<mozzarella> to be honest I'd just rescue everything, doesn't really mather how it fails in that case
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<n88> mozzarella: so remove rescue classes and leave them as bare rescues
<n88> the use of so many begin rescue blocks comes from here -> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16444194/ruby-checking-to-see-if-website-exists
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<shevy> hmm
<shevy> can I raise Foo::Bar too?
<shevy> or must it be raise Bar, where Bar is a subclass of ... the exception class thingy
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<mozzarella> >> raise Object.new
<eval-in> mozzarella => exception class/object expected (TypeError) ... (https://eval.in/167348)
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<shevy> this article helped
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<shevy> anyone knows of a simple way to alias one class method to another?
<shevy> class Foo; def self.bla <-- also want to alias self.bar to self.bla
<shevy> right now I do this after def self.bla
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<shevy> class << self
<shevy> alias bar blar
<shevy> and it's not very beautiful
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<dopie> im getting a
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<dopie> /home/guspares/Projects/ruby/game.rb:41:in `block in <main>': undefined method `name' for "player1":String (NoMethodError)
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<sevenseacat> https://gist.github.com/staycreativedesign/a7a09848b285ce9311e6#file-game-rb-L38 you are defining players as an array of three strings
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<dopie> sevenseacat, instead of objecs??
<dopie> objects?
<sevenseacat> instead of the variables you already have
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<dopie> sevenseacat, so players = [player1, player2, player3]
<dopie> calls variables?
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<dopie> and %w calls strings?
<sevenseacat> it uses the variables you have defined, yes
<shevy> dopie strings in ruby are also objects
<dopie> isnt calling %w and [] the samething??
<sevenseacat> no way
<dopie> ok Thank you, i got confused there
<sevenseacat> %w is 'an array of words'
<sevenseacat> hence, strings
<dopie> ahhhhh i c
<shevy> dopie well %w is more convenient
<shevy> >> %w( abc def ghi )
<eval-in> shevy => ["abc", "def", "ghi"] (https://eval.in/167358)
<shevy> >> ["abc","def","ghi"]
<eval-in> shevy => ["abc", "def", "ghi"] (https://eval.in/167359)
<dopie> shso wat
<dopie> so wait
<shevy> I hate typing " and ,
<dopie> it is the same thing
<shevy> so %w is lovely
<dopie> ?
<sevenseacat> sigh
<shevy> you get the same array dopie
<dopie> but as sevenseacat said
<shevy> there is more than one way to get to the same result
<sevenseacat> they are 'the same thing' if you want an array of strings
<sevenseacat> because that is what %w is a shortcut for
<shevy> dopie ruby loves the %'s
<dopie> sevenseacat, s %w is a shortcut for an array of strings and [] does variables
<shevy> you also have ... %W ... and I think %i for symbols...
<sevenseacat> probably b and d too, knowing ruby
<shevy> ok now your brain tries to be too creative dopie ;)
<sevenseacat> dopie: you are making things up that are not there
<shevy> you need to catch your brain before it tries to put you into wrong ways
<sevenseacat> [] is standard array synrax
<sevenseacat> syntax
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<sevenseacat> you can put anything in an array
<dopie> correct
<shevy> even cats
<dopie> correct...
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<sevenseacat> you can do [12, "foo", :baz] and it is still a valid array
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<shevy> yeah
<shevy> now dopie try to do the same with %w
<shevy> :P
<sevenseacat> so no, [] does not 'do variables'
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<shevy> I do variables for breakfast
<dopie> ok
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<shevy> dopie you know that you can do something like this in ruby?:
<dopie> so %w is an array for STRINGS ... thats it really :)
<shevy> >> x = 'abc'; y = "#{x} def"; y
<eval-in> shevy => "abc def" (https://eval.in/167360)
<sevenseacat> "you are defining players as an array of three strings" yes
<shevy> dopie string objects yes
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<shevy> in games you might have your players end up like that
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<dopie> ok cool and when i use players [player1, player2, player3] im calling those variables
<shevy> @players = [ Player.new('joe'), Player.new('do'), Player.new('tom'), Player.new('Jerry')]
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<shevy> well you place them into your array there
<shevy> but that's the point of variables isn't it? so you can refer to them throughout your entire program
<dopie> shevy, sevenseacat thank you just got mixed up :)
<shevy> \o/
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<juboba> where should I find the 'bundle' installer?
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<juboba> I want to install it and don't know if it is included in a package or if it has its own package
<sevenseacat> in the bundler gem
<juboba> uhm
<juboba> got it!
<juboba> thanks!
<sevenseacat> :)
<juboba> can I install ruby2 along with ruby 1.9?
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<sevenseacat> depends how youre installing them
<juboba> system-wide
<sevenseacat> no, with what tools
<sevenseacat> eg. rvm, compile from source
<juboba> compile from source
<juboba> ok, I'll remove my 1.9 then
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<juboba> I don't work with ruby, but now I'm joining a ruby2 project
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<cantonic> hey there. I am working on an app which calculates Grades for students and courses. Therefore I am passing around grade values (decimal) from one class to an other and to a lot of calculations on them. Is it better to use BigDecimal instead of just passing around a float? I am asking because I am not sure whether there could be rounding errors without using BigDecimal
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<RubyPanther> cantonic: I make sure to always use BigDecimal when I care about exact numbers
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<cantonic> RubyPanther: thank you. Since it is about school grades I should care about it ;)
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<RubyPanther> cantonic: in my dec_number gem I use a backwards #coerce method so that if either side is a decnumber, then it returns a decnumber. Normally if the types don't match you get floats back
<RubyPanther> You can use the same trick if you monkeypatch BigDecimal's coerce method to be backwards
<RubyPanther> or, just be careful to initialize all your values...
<cantonic> hmm…. that’s interesting.
<cantonic> thank you for the tip
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<benlieb> I would like to make a visualization of an audio track. Does ruby have any tools for turning audio in to "data". I'm not even sure where to start...
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<cantonic> RubyPanther: in the database I am saving decimals with a precision of 5. Do you still think that I should use BigDecimal? Because float is faster and in the end I need a precision of 2
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<sevenseacat> if you care about precision, use decimal
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<cantonic> sevenseacat: yes I do care. But it doesn’t have to be highly precise. It is about school grades…
<sevenseacat> that seems like an oxymoron
<cantonic> :)
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<cantonic> sevenseacat: thank you :)
<sevenseacat> np
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<isodude> Hi, I have a stupid problem. My ruby installation doesn't search in /usr/lib64, and thus not finding augeas. Where is the search paths defined?
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<Hanmac> isodude: it seems something did fuckup your ruby system ... let me guess, centos?
<Hanmac> >> RbConfig::CONFIG.select {|k,v| $:.include?(v) }
<eval-in> Hanmac => {"vendorarchdir"=>"/execpad/interpreters/ruby-2.1.0/lib/ruby/vendor_ruby/2.1.0/i686-linux", "vendorlibdir"=>"/execpad/interpreters/ruby-2.1.0/lib/ruby/vendor_ruby/2.1.0", "vendordir"=>"/execpad/interpr ... (https://eval.in/167399)
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<Hanmac> the order is:
<Hanmac> >> $:.map{|s|RbConfig::CONFIG.key(s)}
<eval-in> Hanmac => ["sitelibdir", "sitearchdir", "sitedir", "vendorlibdir", "vendorarchdir", "vendordir", "rubylibdir", "rubyarchdir"] (https://eval.in/167400)
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<isodude> Hanmac, it says RbConfig is not available?
<isodude> Hanmac, yes it is centos btw.
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<Hanmac> isodude: your rubyversion is to old
<Hanmac> (very to old)
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<isodude> oh right, yeah, it's 1.8. Stuck in the stone age.
<sevenseacat> buh-bow
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<dopie> /home/guspares/Projects/ruby/fund.rb:36:in `<main>': undefined method `new_project' for Fly with Stripes is a Fundraiser:Fundraiser (NoMethodError)
<dopie> why am i getting this error
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<dopie> i created a new project
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<dopie> and then i appended it to fund1
<sevenseacat> where are you defining Fundraiser#new_project ?
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<sevenseacat> your Fundraiser and Project classes are terribly mixed up
<dopie> fund1 creates the fundraiser project 1 creates the project fund1.new_project(project1) doesnt add the project 1 to fund1?
<sevenseacat> not when you havent defined the functionality to do so
<dopie> wouldn tthat be line 23
<sevenseacat> and look what class that is in
<dopie> Project
<sevenseacat> (hint: its not the Fundraiser class)
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<sevenseacat> so why are you calling it on a Fundraiser?
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<dopie> because i want the fundraiser to have many projects
* sevenseacat blinks
<sevenseacat> so you're calling a method defined on the Project class, on a Fundraiser object, and you have no idea why this isnt working?
<dopie> no
<certainty> tagrudev: yolo
<dopie> i do...
<dopie> hmmmm...
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<sevenseacat> great, so untangle your two classes and put the functionality in the right ones
<tagrudev> certainty, sup mate
<certainty> tagrudev: i've ported some of jim weirich's refactoring code to refactory.el. Be sure to check it out.
<tagrudev> will do
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<isodude> so it works if I do ruby -I/usr/lib64/ruby/site_ruby/1.8/x86_64-linux/ -raugeas -e 'print "hello world"'
<isodude> RbConfig::CONFIG.select {|k,v| $:.include?(v) } didn't include that path.
<isodude> It does however on another installation.
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<isodude> My problem is that I don't have no clue where the ruby config is :)
<isodude> for $LOAD_CONFIG
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<isodude> LOAD_PATH*
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<dopie> sevenseacat, now i got a nomethod error on my each statement
<sevenseacat> of course you do.
<sevenseacat> what is the error?
<dopie> but why?@!
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<dopie> /home/guspares/Projects/ruby/fund.rb:45:in `<main>': undefined method `each' for nil:NilClass (NoMethodError)
<sevenseacat> because you have no idea about ruby
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<dopie> sevenseacat, i am trying to learn
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<dopie> should i call the each do inside fundraiser?
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<gr33n7007h> dopie, you can't just @projects.each do......... define a method in class Fundraiser
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<dopie> ha!
<dopie> i got it
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<dopie> i revised it
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<dopie> def list_projects
<dopie> inside fundraiser
<gr33n7007h> dopie, applauds!
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<goleldar> hello
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<goleldar> anyone know how to create an rspec test that expects and error to be received and_call_original method after an expect_any_instance_of mock has been created for that method?
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<goleldar> or how to override a allow_any_instance_of declaration
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<isodude> Actually I solved my problem, there had been a manual install of ruby along with the one from rpm. So I removed the one that wasn't reported by yum whatprovides and ran ldconfig. Done.
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<mk2014> hello, I am trying to use an augmented assignment on attr_accessor :number which I pre-defined as a fixnum upon initialize.
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<mk2014> here is a sample gist https://gist.github.com/a0e2ac90c28b3256b2db
<mk2014> i receive an error state it is number is "nil" were in fact it is not.
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<mk2014> error *stating*
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<Mon_Ouie> That's because x = foo sets a local variable, not an instance variable
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<Mon_Ouie> To set an instance variable you have to use @x = foo
<Mon_Ouie> To call the "x=" method defined by attr_accessor, you have to use self.x = foo
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<mk2014> @Mon_Ouie thanks it works!
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<mk2014> @Mon_Ouie I'm curious why it's looking '+'?? NoMethodError: undefined method `+' for nil:NilClass
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<workmad3> mk2014: 'x += args' expands to 'x = x + args' in the interpreter
<workmad3> mk2014: and 'x =' immediately creates a local variable, which is initialized to 'nil'
<mk2014> @workmad3 I know that. But when I do a puts x it returns a value
<workmad3> mk2014: end result, the 'x + args' then refers to the *local var*, not your accessor method
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<mk2014> so it should look something like 3 = 3 + 1
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<workmad3> mk2014: more like nil = nil + 1 ;)
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<Mon_Ouie> "for sufficiently large values of 3"
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<workmad3> Mon_Ouie: for sufficiently nil values of 3 in this case ;)
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<mk2014> if i do a x + 1 it returns a value
<workmad3> mk2014: right... because that doesn't have 'x = ' in front of it
<workmad3> mk2014: 'x =' creates a local variable
<workmad3> mk2014: that local variable hides your accessor method
<mk2014> if you do nil = 3 + 1 it returns a different error
<workmad3> >> x = x
<eval-in> workmad3 => nil (https://eval.in/167448)
<Mon_Ouie> That's because you can't just substitute things in the lhs, it makes no sense
<Mon_Ouie> You don't set a value to something else, you set a variable to a new value
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<workmad3> mk2014: as I said... 'x += 1' expands to 'x = x + 1' then 'x=' *immediately* creates a local variable called 'x' which is valued as 'nil' and hides your attr_accesor created method 'x'
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<mk2014> Yea but isn't that the whole point of augmented assignments?
<workmad3> mk2014: so when the interpreter then looks at 'x + 1', it uses the local variable 'x'
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<mk2014> not to set a new variable to an already existing one?
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<mk2014> @workmad3 yea that's accurate
<Mon_Ouie> There was no variable called x before you run 'x += args'
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<workmad3> mk2014: yeah... but 'x' is nil
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<mk2014> @Mon_Ouie I see
<mk2014> @workmad3 Makes perfect sense now
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<workmad3> mk2014: I agree that it's definitely a violation of the principle of least surprise btw ;)
<workmad3> mk2014: I can understand exactly how it happens... but it's definitely surprising the first time it happens, IMO :)
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<Mon_Ouie> Principle of least Matz's surprise
<workmad3> I'm not sure how it could easily change in the interpreter without special-casing things like ||= though...
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<workmad3> because it's exactly the behaviour that makes 'x ||= 2' work :)
<mk2014> @workmad3 Yes it definitely made me curious to know the process. At first I thought it was an attr_accessor limitation of some sort haha
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<minver> Any ideas how I get can Sidekiq to start up and process like 100 jobs and then quit?
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<Hanmac> workmad3:
<Hanmac> >> x = x
<eval-in> Hanmac => nil (https://eval.in/167449)
<Hanmac> ;P
<workmad3> Hanmac: I already showed that example :P
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<olivier_bK> i parse web site url when he find get_link he add it in mysql but when get_link is nil he add it ??
<olivier_bK> i dont understand why
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<apeiros> olivier_bK: ugh. indents, dude. srsly…
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<canton7> yeah, I'm not reading that until it's properly formatted
<canton7> maybe python does have a point....
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<Bounga> your coding style is pretty weird
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<Bounga> get_link returns mov but what is mov?
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<tobiasvl> olivier_bK: please start indenting your code
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<Bounga> if !get_link(page).nil? is the same as if get_link(page)
<Bounga> I think movie is never nil, maybe empty but not nil. That may be the source of your problem
<mikecmpbll> when i took over this project i'm currently on shit like that was rife ^
<Bounga> @olivier_bK you really should clean up your code
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<wasamasa> mov is clearly a movie
<wasamasa> otherwise he wouldn't match by .filmborder
<Bounga> wasamasa: I mean, mov set anywhere
<Bounga> movie is set, not mov
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<Bounga> it doesn’t seem to be the real code but a simplify version of it which can’t work
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<Bounga> olivier_bK doesn’t seem to want help anymore…
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<wasamasa> Bounga: that's what tends to happen when you discourage ordinary folks :P
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<Bounga> if giving advice on good practices is discouraging he shouldn’t even come on IRC to ask questions
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<jassk> Hi all. I am using ruby 1.9.3. And I am having problem with my logic
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<jassk> it's actually rails app but there is nothing rails specific to it. So I thougt it would be okay to ask here https://gist.github.com/anonymous/0d83a584fc80c3987065
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<jassk> the problem is the session variable is saving the :ratings as if I am calling a flatten method on it
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<Hanmac> jassk: hm little advice: "session[:record] = session[:record] - x" can be reduced to "session[:record] -= x"
<jassk> Oho, nvm, it's saving it the things fine, it's just not preserving to next step
<jassk> Hanmac: thanks, didn't heed on that
<jassk> also I think I can make a method for that session thing and put it somewhere else that willl give me more abstraction
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<jassk> but first this functionality starts to work as expected for once
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<Hanmac> jassk: "@movies.sort {|a, b| a.title.downcase <=> b.title.downcase}" can be replaced by "@movies.sort_by {|m| m.title.downcase }" or with casecmp "@movies.sort {|a, b| a.title.casecmp(b.title)}"
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<Hanmac> damm
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<jassk> Hanmac: got dc
<Hanmac> jassk: "@movies.sort {|a, b| a.title.downcase <=> b.title.downcase}" can be replaced by "@movies.sort_by {|m| m.title.downcase }" or with casecmp "@movies.sort {|a, b| a.title.casecmp(b.title)}" .casecmp is Case-insensitive version of String#<=>.
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<jassk> oh, I see
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<jassk> I am taking this edx course and there was suggestion of using <=> operator. Didn't think about this alternative, thanks
<apeiros> jassk: note that String#downcase only maps A-Z
<apeiros> >> "ÄÖÜ".downcase
<eval-in> apeiros => "ÄÖÜ" (https://eval.in/167465)
<Hanmac> apeiros: but casecmp also only care about "A-Z"
<apeiros> Hanmac: correct
<Hanmac> imo ruby should have such unicode things in stdlib ... :/
<apeiros> yes
<jassk> also I am unable to persist the session variable but that is rails specific I guess
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<apeiros> I was disappointed those things didn't arrive with 1.9 and get more disappointed with every new major release :(
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<Hanmac> i think i should make a ticket for that ...
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<jassk> I hope I am still here :s
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<shevy> Hanmac you have way too much time
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<benzrf> Hanmac: stop memeing, thats awful
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<atmosx> hello
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<shevy> hey atmosx
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<IceDragon> shevy: I had a nightmare...
<IceDragon> Python was running at almost native speeds, while ruby was lagging behind...
* IceDragon shivers
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<csmrfx> "almost native speeds"
<csmrfx> whats that even mean?
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<eam> csmrfx: I swear I typed up the exact same thing
<csmrfx> you had a C or assembler program to compare to?
<Sou|cutter> as fast as a native american
<IceDragon> Yeah, in my dream, I was reviewing a language performance chart
<IceDragon> As usual, assembly and C was at the top
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<IceDragon> And then.... PYTHON
<csmrfx> a dream!
<csmrfx> ok
<IceDragon> No
<IceDragon> IT WAS A NIGHTMARE
<csmrfx> in real life, at this point I usually say
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<csmrfx> "Use NArray"
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<shevy> lol Sou|cutter
<eam> assembly should be pretty far from the top
<eam> humans haven't been able to write competitive assembly for a while now
<havenwood> humans, ha
* havenwood blinks
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<wasamasa> can't remember the last time I had a nightmare
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<skmp> eam: that is hugely false
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<csmrfx> I had one last night where I thought someone was coming through the door to kill me... woke up to refridgerator compressor whining
<eam> skmp: and why do you say that?
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<skmp> because, i regularly write assembly, and work on compilers/jits
<skmp> we're in the era that we're just starting to not generate plain stupid asm
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<skmp> its nowhere near the quality a human can do
<eam> and how many complete projects have you authored in it? versus optimizing small areas and using tool-generated code?
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<skmp> complete? none. Speed doesn't matter.
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<skmp> but that doesn't mean that I can't humans can't produce competitive assemby -- that's a fallacy
<eam> skmp: at scale, they can't
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<skmp> in some of my projects I have inspected large parts (aka, megabytes) of generated code to tweak and get the compiler to do less stupid things
<eam> they end up writing a higher level language
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<skmp> maybe, but then we never had any interesting assembly compilers
<skmp> that can do proper meta stuff, etc, etc
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<atmosx> Anyone can see why this CSS code doesn't produce white color linked text? https://gist.github.com/af6a02eb06554f64d589
<skmp> but just keep in mind, most compilers, particularly jits, will generate brain dead slow code
<eam> skmp: oh I totally agree
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<skmp> even a fastpass by hand will prolly make it twice as fast ;p
<eam> the trick is that most humans produce even worse code
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<skmp> most humans can produce worse *any language code*
<eam> a fastpass by hand, by particularly skilled top-1% developers :)
<skmp> some of them can't even produce english :p
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<skmp> (well, most, actually)
<shevy> eam hey! my code is perfect
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<skmp> maybe, but compared to the stupidity i've seen from compilers, i'm not very sure of that
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<skmp> there's a very "compilers are smater" from ppl that hardly ever actually look at the assembly
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<eam> skmp: I think you're underestimating the average stupidity of say, a web developer
<skmp> and high level stuff is amazing, but don't think the generated code is elegant or anywhere near fast ;p
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<shevy> wat
<shevy> beauty begets beauty
<eam> give the average ruby (or python, perl, php) developer an assembler and a project and I'm not sure they'll produce something faster
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<shevy> and flies are attracted to shit
<shevy> what would they need assembler for
<skmp> that doesn't make the compilers less sucky eam
<skmp> the "compilers are smart" is a popularised excuse to ingore compiler fails
<eam> skmp: I totally agree with you. I'm just saying the average developer is even worse
<terrellt> Feeling a little insulted here.
<shevy> YES terrellt
<skmp> we need to push more work there, so that it gets less stupid
<skmp> not consider it a solved issue
<eam> terrellt: I'm sure you are above average!
<shevy> I feel these two BULLY UP against the beauty we create!
<eam> we all are above average!
<shevy> and they hate compilers
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<skmp> shevy: you can't write a compiler and then still love them after that
<skmp> (or read GCCs source)
<shevy> in ruby I can!
<eam> skmp: there's truth to that too
<skmp> :P
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<shevy> GCC was created by blind monkeys
<shevy> but the light came with llvm
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<skmp> which is still over 30% slower in real world scenarios
<skmp> and takes much longer to compile
<shevy> it's natural evolution vs. rational design
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<skmp> *based on my results*
<shevy> it'll catch up
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<eam> they'll both catch up
<shevy> they can't let those statements stand on reddit
<skmp> gcc is proof that sufficient amounts of hacks are almost sentient
<shevy> hehehe
<shevy> we should reach the point where AIs write code
* skmp goes back to his cave
<terrellt> shevy: No thanks, I like having a job. =(
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* skmp has a notify on "asm, assembly"
<skmp> :P
* skmp also remembers promising to some core ruby developers to help with the 2.1 jits but never getting anything done
<shevy> terrellt yeah but just look back at history
<shevy> when steam engines were put down on the people
<shevy> or when cars were manufactured en masse
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<shevy> or when people no longer had to rent a whole house to use a computer
<skmp> shevy: eventually, configurability (abstraction) wins. Always.
<skmp> but there's no reason to assume we have tools anywhere near our brains
<shevy> skmp I say that everyday when I try to find something in my flat but entropy is stronger than my abstractions :(
<skmp> that's just plain false
<skmp> we're at least 20-30 years behind that state
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<eam> skmp: aaaah, not so sure about that
<skmp> or more
<skmp> imho
<shevy> brains are the ultimate tools
<shevy> they build stuff!
<shevy> fusion reactors!!!
<skmp> eventually we're make AI that can code
<skmp> I guess that'll be the end of the human race
<eam> we don't have the software, that's for sure, but we can make rough estimates on brain capacity and compute throughput
<eam> and we're certainly in the ballpark already
<shevy> the problem is that the AIs don't really think
<terrellt> 30 years seems pretty soon, even.
<skmp> eam: no?
<skmp> :P
<shevy> my estimate is that it would require different hardware
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<skmp> imho we're still grossly underestimating the computing power of the brain
<shevy> my computer calculates faster than my brain!
<skmp> and I don't think the current electronics/digital logic idea will be able
<skmp> to work at such large scales
* skmp run out of battery
<skmp> laters ~
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<shevy> lol
<shevy> best finish line ever
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<eam> skmp: estimates are around Pb sized storage
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<eam> we have compute clusters that almost certainly can process on par or above what a brain does, though they still take up buildings
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<eam> it's perhaps more interesting to observe that if you agree the brain is a turing machine then even the first processor is "on par" with a brain -- simply slower
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<eam> but any two turing machines can calculate the same results
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<eam> the problem's not hardware - the problem is we don't know how to express the software
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<mozzarella> meh
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<mozzarella> I don't see the brain as a normal computer
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<mozzarella> I'm pretty sure there's quantum mechanics involved, which would make it very hard for a classical computer to replicate
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<havenwood> mozzarella: quantum brain? literature or it didn't happen!
<xybre> Modern CPUs rely on and compensate for quantum effects already.
<havenwood> s/literature/pics
<eam> mozzarella: quantum or not, you either agree it's a turing machine or you think it's magic/metaphysical
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<eam> and if it's a turing machine, we can express its calculations today no matter what they are (albeit, slowly)
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<mozzarella> xybre: are you talking about the quantum tunneling happening in transistors?
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<xybre> mozzarella: Thats one effect, yes.
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<havenwood> mozzarella: afaik no qubits in the brain :P
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<mozzarella> no but there might be quantum entanglement I heard
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<mozzarella> which would allow neurons to talk to each other without being physically connected, IIRC
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<mozzarella> not sure if that has been proven to be true or not
<eam> isn't it interesting to see parts of physics described as non-physical?
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<xybre> If that was true, it'd make for a very strange model of the brain, but the upside it would mean that making ansibles would be trivial if such a simple meat machine could do it.
<eam> xybre: randomness isn't simple
<xybre> (I mean a cell)
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<xybre> Randomness is quite simple, by definition. Complexity arises out of a system with simple rules.
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<eam> examining the output of a function is equally complex regardless of the function source
<havenwood> mozzarella: i think that is solely in the realm of hypothesis, though if there is any experimental evidence i'd love to see it
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<mozzarella> havenwood: you know what? now I recall
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<mozzarella> I think it only happens when someone sleep or something along those lines
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<havenwood> i'll stick with meat-based turing machine
<xybre> They're made of meat.
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<havenwood> i'm worried we 1) don't understand much about the mind (we don't), 2) don't understand much about quantum physics (we don't), so 3) we imagine they're related (maybe they are?)
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<Senjai> Physics and chemistry? Of course they're related
<havenwood> well, quantum effects being actually responsible for consciousness i mean, not just present as always
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<eam> quantum effects are, along with all other aspects of physics, responsible for everything
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<havenwood> eam: sure, computers don't exist without the quantum, but that isn't what "quantum mind" is contemplating
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<havenwood> eam: just like computer != quantum computer
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<havenwood> ruby
<havenwood> quantum ruby is for the birds
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<shevy> lol
<shevy> the birds in havenwood's garden are brogrammers
<shevy> BIRD-programmers!
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<havenwood> shevy: i've never paired with a bird
<havenwood> and my cat is terrible
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<shevy> lol
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<Hanmac> havenwood: i have cats too ... they catch everything that moves in the yard ... once they captured a mole
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<shevy> cool
<shevy> our cats here only catch mice and birds
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<skmp> eam: the traditional turing machine is fully deterministic, you can't have original content within a fully deterministic system, so, imo, that's not how teh brains work
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<skmp> i guess you can add some random source to extend it
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<eam> skmp: no evidence brains produce original content
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<RubyPanther> Of course you can have original content, for values of "original content" that match real "original content."
<skmp> there's also the fact that (digital) electronics are designed as huge systems (like, HUGE) that never fail. Extremely huge.
<RubyPanther> None of that was entirely "original" anyways, except the wild mumblings of bat boy
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<skmp> The brain works in an entierly different way
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<skmp> it has a cluster of extremly fail prone systems
<RubyPanther> If you can figure out what "original content" even means, it would be trivial to write a bot to generate it
<skmp> RubyPanther: entropy
<skmp> you can't generate it
<skmp> ;p
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<RubyPanther> The state of that art is more about teaching an expert system what "good" literature is, rather than some hang-up about being "original."
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<skmp> the state of the art is computers that don't really "think" or work like us
<skmp> even though they might trick us some times
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<skmp> that's why the systems fail so bad
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<skmp> and in ways a undeveloped human brain (baby) doesn't
<RubyPanther> That is nonsense, systems that fail are poorly programmed
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<skmp> see, thats the point
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<skmp> the main function of the brain is to fail
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<havenwood> RubyPanther: or not designed :O
<skmp> yet it somehow manages to create a very convincing delusion of coherence :p
<RubyPanther> Software can and does write decent literature. The state of the art is not failure. Nor is it a "brain simulator."
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<skmp> well, I guess that totally depends on what "decent literature" classifies as
<RubyPanther> It has no meaning, it is like complaining that jets are fake because they don't have feathers
<skmp> the point isn't to apply stored knowledge
<skmp> imo the point is to generate new knowledge
<RubyPanther> You'd have to read it and realize that there is nothing different about _the_creative_content_ than content created by humans.
<skmp> just like you can't iterate a code base without changing a bit the rules/design
<havenwood> we all agree that Jane Eyre was actually an AI bot i'm sure, but was it "literature"?
<skmp> Except RubyPanther, that the exact "create content" was examined before that
<RubyPanther> The supposed difference is in the creative _process_ which isn't even the same for different humans, isn't understood, and isn't attempted to be measured in computers the way it is measured in humans
<skmp> while, the first human that created had not
<RubyPanther> skmp: That's a dodge
<RubyPanther> A weak one, too. No human artist would meet the standard.
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<skmp> I haven't seen, heard, or read about a software simulation that generates something of sufficientl complexity that it wasn't designed to
<skmp> well, except in the case of very interesting hardware bugs
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<RubyPanther> Right, but that is not the computer failing, that is just you not reading. ;)
<skmp> (which, imo, classify as a source of chaotic randomness)
<skmp> maybe
<skmp> i mostly ponder about that stuff in my free time
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<skmp> (aka, feel free to send amazing papers my way)
<RubyPanther> My advice, read more journals, ponder less
<diegoviola> i have two arrays, is there a way to merge the data of the arrays providing that the arrays have a common ID?
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<skmp> make me that device that the day has more than 300 hours
<diegoviola> all the other data is different
<skmp> and i'll do that RubyPanther :p
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<RubyPanther> diegoviola: #+ and #& are my first 2 ideas depending on what "merge" means
<diegoviola> ty
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<skmp> RubyPanther: so, which is a great starting point? which journals?
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<skmp> I happen to be in a country that has no education, so haven't had the time dig that much into institutional stuff
<skmp> +to
<RubyPanther> skmp: I start at New Scientist magazine and mostly read things referenced there.
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<skmp> thx
<diegoviola> RubyPanther: i have this data here: https://gist.github.com/diegoviola/4807b8e145516cc05c8b
<RubyPanther> Journals aren't necessary, I was just being snooty, the important thing is to read first and then integrate, instead of ponder and integrate
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<diegoviola> RubyPanther: some of the columns in these array are the same on both arrays
<katlogic> skmp: There's this whole theoretical field which studies 'Emergent behaviour'
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<katlogic> skmp: Schoolbook example being game of life and similiar automata
<diegoviola> RubyPanther: i want to be able to get the "floor" with the "number of garages" from the different arrays (link them together)
<skmp> heh, maybe. I don't put that much trust though on unis, mostly from extremely bad past expirience
<diegoviola> RubyPanther: but the data are in different arrays
<skmp> katlogic: yeah i know, ofc :p
<diegoviola> number of garages per floor
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<RubyPanther> diegoviola: Why don't you just create an OO object that holds your data, then parse it in.
<skmp> RubyPanther: most of the great ideas have come from random pondering, and that goes into many non coding related fields (painting, writing music, etc)
<skmp> especially in music, most of it is just random mistakes that integrate into coherent ideas
<skmp> but that could be me sucking at music ;p
<diegoviola> RubyPanther: this data is coming from a "web service" via SOAP and XML, so if i were to create a OOP version of this, then I still would have to go through all that trouble of parsing the data and manipulating the arrays, etc
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<katlogic> skmp: The keyspace is too big for completely random pondering, there are strong rules to restrict the bounds ...
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<skmp> life it too short to not randomly ponder, and follow someone else's random pondering
<RubyPanther> skmp: No, most of the great ideas have come from directed pondering by people well educated in the field who get a surprising (not random) epiphany while working on a problem. Often it is about a different problem than they were working on, but that is part of the process.
<skmp> i can't say I have examples of this
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<skmp> but that also makes sense
<RubyPanther> Just grab at any great idea from history
<katlogic> What RubyPanther said, It's always an educated guess, not a sudden spurr of savant genius.
<skmp> certainly though, life itself wasn't created by a big mind
<skmp> (well, that depends on your views on life, i guess)
<RubyPanther> A great symphony isn't a random batch of ideas, it is a master work that was created with intention
<skmp> see
<skmp> the "created" part
<skmp> for me means random batch o ideas
<RubyPanther> Well, that is you misusing words
<skmp> how they were integrated, refined, and organised is the master work
<katlogic> Truly original memes are exceedingly rare, usually it's just mutated meme.
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<RubyPanther> The word is wrong, and so it shelters the difference in ideas from analysis.
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<skmp> yes katlogic, but why did you decide to put your cat in the ceiling and then take a picture of a soldering iron and add captions to it?
<skmp> :p
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<katlogic> Because tomorrow is caturday?
<skmp> that is a perfectly valid reason
<skmp> ;p
<RubyPanther> Because the internet is made of cats, and adding captions is an old idea
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<skmp> yeah, but the precise composition is new
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<skmp> (or at least, new to you)
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<RubyPanther> Yeah, so is a used bike
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<skmp> thats not the same though
<katlogic> skmp: Internet memes and pop song riffs are clear example of this indeed. Even classical music is mostly just clever arrangement of existing riffs.
<skmp> uness you mean there's some mystical connection betwen brains that transfer knowledge
<RubyPanther> No, it is _exactly_the_same_ and claims of "true" originality are all fake
<skmp> yes, i don't disagree with that
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<skmp> when does new content come from then?
<katlogic> Inherently you're arguing difference what muse really is, whether the motivation to arrange memes, or genuinely creating new ones.
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<katlogic> RubyPanther: I'd avoid blanket term "all" with "most of the time".
<katlogic> Emergence clearly exists, its just very rare for completely unrelated things to randomly arrange in something new and meaningful.
<RubyPanther> I normally avoid blanket terms, but in this case I will defend "all." The egg comes before the chicken because that is where the mutation is first expressed.
<skmp> katlogic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuokANvtjCM -- getting there from a symphony is quite a long way. An extreme amount of content reuse, but i sure think there have to be some *new* ideas inbetween
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<skmp> same thing RubyPanther
<RubyPanther> An original idea would be completely useless to a human brain.
<skmp> mutations are random or not?
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<RubyPanther> Not
<RubyPanther> Mutations are not, and _can_not_ be random!
<skmp> why not?
<katlogic> Genetic programming much?
<katlogic> Literally monte carlo search for best fit.
<skmp> so you think there's a self-assembling global "entire existance" plan and we just flow along its lines?
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<RubyPanther> because you can only have coding errors in the specific ways that the gene transfers can fail, and the new value is derived from the old values
<RubyPanther> We can't predict a mutation, but it is not, can not be, random
<skmp> i've had bugs turn into great features
<katlogic> Oh, sure, thats definition of mutation.
<katlogic> Take the original, adjust a bit.
<Hanmac> havenwood: "What would happen if you were to gather a mole (unit of measurement) of moles (the small furry critter) in one place?" http://what-if.xkcd.com/4/
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<skmp> bugs are like mutations ;p
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<skmp> i've also had random bit flips make things work
<skmp> while working with electronics
<skmp> and EMI + thermal noise *is* mostly random
<RubyPanther> Almost nothing can be random, things simply "appear random" because they're distributed in a way that was don't have more information about
<katlogic> Quake strafe-jumping is unintended mutation exploited as part of gaming strategy.
<katlogic> There was clearly no intention to implement it, yet it's inherently part of the game
<Senjai> !this channel
<skmp> well, thats mostly a phisosophical point though
<RubyPanther> When physicists talk about things being "random" they're not talking about things being creatively new, they're talking about not having information other than some known distribution
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<skmp> you're arguing that there's no new entropy, i'm arguing that the world is based on cheap entropy
<skmp> both things make sense
<skmp> I used to support that opinion tbh
<RubyPanther> Entropy is just disorder, it isn't a thing that can be new, it is just a distribution
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<skmp> i just drifted away from it lately (the past 4-5 years)
<RubyPanther> and the distribution is never the same as in the past, but plagiarism can still exist
<skmp> oh sure
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<skmp> plagiarism is almost 100% of the body
<katlogic> RubyPanther: Whether quantum noise or even heat death is just statistical concept or inherent feature of nature is not even known to theoretical physicists.
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<skmp> i'm not saying every iteration is new
<skmp> hell
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<skmp> i don't think one bit every lots and lots of petabytes is real new entropy
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<RubyPanther> katlogic: Yeah, thankfully they stopped asking most of those questions. Praise the logical positivists! lol
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* skmp loves RubyPanther now
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<maasha> shevy: ?
<skmp> RubyPanther: I believe creation comes from disorder, when it is processed by py information processing machines/systems and combined with the huge existing data set
<skmp> -py
<katlogic> skmp: It's the other way around. Adjust existing data with just tiny bit of entropy.
<eam> is that why GC languages are popular then, ingrained and unescapable entropy
<katlogic> eam: :)))
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<skmp> katlogic: yeh that makes sense (from my PoV)
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<katlogic> skmp: Well, technically both approaches exist. Either monte carlo search (somewhat unbound brute force attempt, then check result for fitness) vs genetic programming (mutate existing model by small bits, check for fitness).
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<skmp> i'm combining js knowledge with JIT/hw design nowdays, the fact that I know js is cus I broke up, and was too drunk to refuse a very bad job some night many months ago
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<skmp> i consider that fact kind of random
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<skmp> but the rest of the knowledge (js, jit, h/w) is ofc pre-existing
<maasha> !seen shevy
<katlogic> Nah, JS is made of almost pure entropy. Just take JS operator rules matrix, that _is_ pure entropy.
<eam> cosmic rays knocking bits of DNA around is pretty random
<katlogic> As there is no rational reason for that whatsoever.
<skmp> yup
<skmp> ;p
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<skmp> though, to be fair, it does make much more sense than BASH programming
<skmp> certainly an improvement
<eam> I don't know much js, are its operators that much worse than say ruby's?
<skmp> in practice, no
<skmp> i've never had an operator bug bite me, even after a lot of code
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<wasamasa> I'd rather say the weak typing bit me
<skmp> if you want to have a working mental model of js? forget it, that won't happen
<eam> what little of js I know seems more or less similar to how perl works (which is very similar to ruby)
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<skmp> js is like html/css layout. You think you know how display: whatever; will do with mode: catnip; til the animal: catfish; just doesn't work quite right
<skmp> and then you read the doc and realise that every 4th catnip element that has a boder color is actually hidden by default in the spec
<eam> I'm blissfully unaware of browser markup
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<cj> hey folks
<skmp> well, it has its elegance at some moments -- i'm really grateful of the new abstractions and ideas i've learnt
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<skmp> (*some* moments)
<cj> could someone recommend a good example of launching a shell script from ruby with a system call?
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<RubyPanther> cosmic rays can only "knock" DNA from the current position into one of a few known possible other conditions. The case for randomness would fall on splitting hairs specifically within the cases of complete DNA failure, but those are not useful cases and won't instruct much
<bricker`work> :|
<RubyPanther> cj: beware of placing the words "system call" next to each other, because then it means something extra
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<RubyPanther> which is to say, calling #system is not a system call :P
<skmp> RubyPanther: btw, if you believe that there's some hidden variable behind complexity, and not true randomness, there's the random argument that there is an infinitive amount of hidden variables, thus, it is random
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<skmp> isn't it an exec? :p
<skmp> well, fork/exec
<eam> RubyPanther: you just described the post-randomness selectivity
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<RubyPanther> skmp: "true" in "true randomness" has no meaning. If there is hidden complexity is a known unknown that is widely believed to be unknowable.
<katlogic> Whether the cosmic ray hits or no is random, the result of that impact is not random.
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<skmp> true, as in, no finite amount of information will ever be sufficient to model it
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<havenwood> cj: do you want to replace the ruby process or just shell out?
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<RubyPanther> Well, that is nonsense, if there is hidden complexity that is unknown, we won't be able to make any claims about if modeling it is easy or hard until/unless it is a known known
<skmp> i'm not arguing that infinitive knowledge would result in perfect knowledge of the global state
<skmp> i'm just saying that *finite* knowledge, no matter how big, won't
<cj> havenwood: just shelling out is good. if I can do it in a non-blocking way, that'd be best
<katlogic> skmp: I'm not reconciled with such statements. I hold slight hopes that our reality is just a sim running on god's quantum desktop PC.
<katlogic> you know, like we play The sims.
<cj> system("/usr/local/foo&") might work, eh?
<havenwood> cj: checkout the difference between backticks `ls` and system('ls')
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<skmp> katlogic: i love that idea
<RubyPanther> You can't know that without knowing it. You can't know what would be available from finite knowledge except for the things you have knowledge about already.
<skmp> but then, god himself must be simulated ;p
<skmp> or it makes no sense
<havenwood> cj: do you need a return value? io or compute bound?
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<havenwood> cj: a thread or fork in Ruby
<RubyPanther> If you read Richard Feynman: A Life in Science, they spend a bunch of pages on logical positivism and this sort of question
* skmp puts that into the list
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<cj> havenwood: no return value necessary. the called script will likely be waiting on things like DNS and ping
<skmp> I love Feynman, but mostly seen videos and stuff
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<skmp> but, tbh, that's just my prediction/model for the world
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<havenwood> cj: pid = fork { system('/usr/local/foo') }
<cj> he's the one who quoted the baghvad gita that one time, isn't he? "I have become death, the destroyer of worlds."
<eam> if you're going to fork, use exec
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<havenwood> good point eam
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<skmp> (and i'm always looking around for new data that challenges my assumptions)
<cj> okay, fork / exec it is
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<cj> no, that was oppenheimer
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<eam> also, I just spent 5 minutes trying to come up with some snark about ruby -e'syscall 59, "/bin/sh", ...' but I can't marshall a char** without too much work
<RubyPanther> according to Feynman's "reverse wave hypothesis" the cosmic ray actually interacts with the DNA it is going to fiddle _before_ being emitted from the solar body
<havenwood> eam: although he doesn't want to replace his ruby process
<eam> havenwood: it'll replace the forked copy
<havenwood> open3
<RubyPanther> So rather than random, it is actually premeditated by both the cosmic ray, and the DNA
<skmp> that requires global (universe wise) conceous
<eam> system() is identical to fork { exec() } ; wait()
<havenwood> eam: ah, just got what you meant - i need coffee
<skmp> i don't think that's efficient or archivalbe
<RubyPanther> Nope, just a "reverse wave"
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<skmp> so, each side needs to somehow have knowledge
<skmp> i don't think matter is so heavily networked ;p
<RubyPanther> Right, the theory is that every single photon exchange has a _different_ information exchange first, traveling backwards in time
<skmp> that seems inefficient
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<skmp> i'd think the world would be self assembled into something more efficient
<skmp> (with less information going on)
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<RubyPanther> Yeah, to measure where 1 photon will go, you have to collapse a whole universe full of wave functions to find the one that reinforces
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<skmp> but it is an interesting idea
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<RubyPanther> what looks "efficient" at the human level is somewhat arbitrary
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<skmp> yeah ofc
<havenwood> cj: then `Process.detach pid` or wait or whatever your logic dictates
<skmp> but then, that goes for every theory
<havenwood> oh though exec
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<skmp> so its mostly a philosophical decision rather than a data-driven one
<skmp> (as Feynman said, 'I have various degrees of certainly about different things, but i'm not absolutely sure about anything')
<havenwood> still
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<havenwood> zombies!
<cj> havenwood: I was hoping to avoid thinking about those...
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<cj> thanks havenwood. I'll Process.detach(pid) once it's fork'd
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<eam> 10:40 < cj> could someone recommend a good example of launching a shell script from ruby with a system call?
<eam> ruby -rubygems -e'require "ffi"; syscall 59, "foo.sh", FFI::MemoryPointer.new(:pointer, 2).write_array_of_pointer([FFI::MemoryPointer.from_string("foo.sh"), nil]).to_i, 0'
<momomomomo> ?
<wasamasa> oh god
<wasamasa> why would one do that
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<eam> hey man I didn't ask the question
<wasamasa> I mean
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<wasamasa> it's not like ruby's a programming language that doesn't offer writing better bindings to c libraries
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<eam> yeah but he specifically said system call ;-)
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<apeiros> won't `` result in system calls either?
<jhass> maybe he meant a Kernel#system-call? :P
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<eam> apeiros: well that's no fun at all
<apeiros> if you want fun, use malbolge!
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<eam> is there a gem for inline malbolge in ruby yet?
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<apeiros> eam: I bet you could use inline assembler to do that
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<sdelmore> I've been messing with time zone for a few hours and can't figure out how to get rid of it. Is there a ruby class for time without zone?
<sdelmore> Or a way to force everything to always be utc?
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<RubyPanther> sdelmore: Normally you would cast all your inputs to UTC
<RubyPanther> There is nothing full-featured like SQL has
<sdelmore> I am trying, but something seems to keep turning them back. Maybe it is a rails thing, not a ruby thing.
<Hanmac> RubyPanther: there should be a gem named "blue-box" for messing with time & zones ;P
<Sou|cutter> Time.zone = 'UTC'
<RubyPanther> Time and dates are Ruby's weak area, because the stdlib is mostly just centered around providing an interface to the crufty old unix C libs
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<sdelmore> I can create them as utc, but when I cast them as dates, then back to times it puts local time back in.
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<sdelmore> Maybe I just need to stay away from the date.to_time method. I was creating a method to give me the full days from a time interval, but it keeps putting them back in local time.
<RubyPanther> My typical strategy is to stuff them in a database, and do the time/date math in SQL, then hide all that behind a Ruby method
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<sdelmore> Interesting.
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<RubyPanther> "substantially non-optimal" but it gets me there
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<sdelmore> I may just have to make my own version of to_time which does a to_time then subtracts the offset.
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<sdelmore> Thought there might be something already built in to do it better.
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<sdelmore> Aha….to_time can take a parameter but I didn't see it in the docs. I can do date.to_time(:utc)
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<jhass> looks like a AS extension
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<banister> jhass 'an'
<banister> ;)
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<gomikemike> trying to change the case of a facter fact with Facter.value('tag_name').upcase
<gomikemike> but its failing
<gomikemike> is that the correct syntax
<eam> gomikemike: what's the failure?
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<gomikemike> eam: looking it up again... ;)
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<tus> hmm.. having a hard time adding a new thread to my ircbot in ruby. anyone would know why?
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<tus> tested it without the irc coding and it works fine, the threading code
<tus> and yeah i know it's stupid without showing code, but it's no big deal anyway hah
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<tus> t1 = Thread.new{checkTest()} t1.join
<gomikemike> eam: nvm, im told that its working now
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<tus> ok now i got it semi working but it seems to block the main thread
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<bricker`work> tus: Thread#join blocks the main thread
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<jeevesmoss> hey guys. I don't get this. if I run gem list opengl, it shows I have version 0.8.0 installed, but when I run bundle install, it fails on opengl.
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<tus> bricker`work, haha yeah i figured it out.
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<jheg_> o/
<jheg_> you guys got any recs for a ruby based blog platform?
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<wasamasa> my co-worker demonstrated me how few effort it takes to make a bare-bones rails blog
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<jheg_> wasamasa: Thing is I'd be using it to document a course I'm doing in ruby :)
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<wasamasa> that sounds more like the notebooks
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<jheg_> I'd love to build my own but it would probs delay me getting on with the course
<jheg_> notebooks?
<wasamasa> you know, ipython-notebook, julia-notebook, cl-notebook, ...
<wasamasa> you can evaluate code in them and add markup
<wasamasa> there's lots of examples that explain scientific topics
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<wasamasa> no idea whether there's one for ruby though
<jheg_> nope dunno what thou mean :) they like blogging platforms?
<wasamasa> not exactly
<wasamasa> ah, there is one
<wasamasa> cool
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<jheg_> hmm looks a little complicated for me right now ... perhaps I should stick with WP for now
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<jheg_> thanks for digging it out though
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<wasamasa> it looks cool if you're doing a course on scientific topics
<wasamasa> the sinatra examples page had loads of blogs listed there
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<wasamasa> which should be simple to set up since they all speak rack
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<wasamasa> a bunch of them don't even need a database to be used
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<havenwood> jheg_: checkout Jekyl: http://jekyllrb.com
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<canton7> or nanoc
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<jheg_> pooh nice thanks chaps
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<jheg_> lol * oooh
<jheg_> ha
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<jheg_> nano and jekyl both look like just what I'm after
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<jheg_> now I have too much choice :/
<jhass> assign each one a number
<jhass> ready?
<jhass> >> rand(10)
<eval-in> jhass => 1 (https://eval.in/167629)
<wasamasa> jheg_: keep in mind both are static website generators :P
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<wasamasa> jheg_: so, a bit different from your usual blog
<jheg_> yeah not necessarily a problem for me I don't think?
<sylphiae> can anyone tell me--is ruby often used without rails?
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<sirecote> i like to use it without rails
<wasamasa> I learn to use it with rails
<wasamasa> because, job
<jheg_> there seems to be lots on that list you posted to so just need to have a little read through
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<wasamasa> jheg_: the list has some "dynamic" ones
<wasamasa> jheg_: some with, some without a database
<sylphiae> do you get the impression that most ruby devs use it with rails though?
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<wasamasa> well, I find way too much rails-centric content
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<wasamasa> for example googling how to get rails and postgres working yields way more result than sinatra and postgres
<sylphiae> ah
<slash_nick> sylphiae: i wouldn't say 'most'
<wasamasa> which could also be due to the fact sinatra doesn't require you to use a database at all
<wasamasa> and is less opinionated in general
<jhass> sylphiae: does it matter? there are plenty of usecases for ruby apart from rails, that should be reason enough to use it
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<wasamasa> sylphiae: don't worry, ruby has more usecases besides rails
<slash_nick> wasamasa: rails doesn't require you to use a database at all
<sylphiae> thanks guys
<sylphiae> is there a resource that could tell me which companies use ruby?
<wasamasa> github :P
<slash_nick> builtwith.com
<sylphiae> o.O
<jheg_> github written in ruby?
<jhass> large parts
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<sylphiae> hmm, i didn't know that
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<wasamasa> not completely, but what large company does that these days
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<ericwood> github is rails for the most part
<ericwood> and yes, ruby gets used for all kinds of things
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<ericwood> hell, I wrote a ruby gem for controlling roombas
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<gizmore> i want to convert AAAAA into the decimal representation, which should be approx 50 billion... any elegant ideas?
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<gizmore> and it should work with any string input (trying to create a huge value out of 512 byte file chunks)
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<apeiros> gizmore: it'd help if you told us what representation it is now. hex?
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<gizmore> apeiros: just a file
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<apeiros> aaand it just stopped making sense altogether.
<ericwood> >> 'AAAAA'.to_i(16)
<eval-in> ericwood => 699050 (https://eval.in/167630)
<ericwood> meh
<gizmore> and it would be base 256 :)
<jhass> >> 'AAAAA'.to_i(256)
<eval-in> jhass => invalid radix 256 (ArgumentError) ... (https://eval.in/167631)
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<apeiros> >> "AAAAA".unpack("B").to_i(2)
<eval-in> apeiros => undefined method `to_i' for ["0"]:Array (NoMethodError) ... (https://eval.in/167632)
<apeiros> >> "AAAAA".unpack("B").first.to_i(2)
<eval-in> apeiros => 0 (https://eval.in/167633)
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<apeiros> plerp, what?
<apeiros> >> "AAAAA".unpack("B*").first.to_i(2)
<eval-in> apeiros => 280267669825 (https://eval.in/167634)
<gizmore> yay :)
<gizmore> thanks a lot!
<apeiros> better. now decide on B vs. b
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<apeiros> there might be more efficient ways. check String#unpack
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<gizmore> efficiency is no big deal atm, but yes... thank you!
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<apeiros> gizmore: and what do you want to do with a value as large as 256**512?
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<gizmore> try to find an exponent and additive polynom that gives a shorter representation for a packing contest
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<gizmore> so in short: i try to fail hard :)
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<cj> hey folks, could I get a quick code review here? This is my first ruby change, and I wanted to get a sanity check before I set up an environment on which to test it
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<drizz> is it possible to allocate a fixed size mutable string, for say, using as a buffer?
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<apeiros> drizz: you could implement one
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<apeiros> drizz: or you can use an ordinary string and never change its size
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<drizz> apeiros: and that won't make it realloc()?
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<apeiros> you might be using the wrong language if you care about such minutiae
<apeiros> why would it realloc?
<drizz> it's actually just idle curiosity, it's not really a requirement
<drizz> and because many string implementations do that
<apeiros> realloc when you don't change the size? again, why'd they do that?
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<apeiros> realloc happens when your string grows beyond capacity
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<drizz> because they're sloppy :p
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<drizz> anyway, keeping a string a fixed size (i.e. manually filling it with nonsense) would get quite ugly rather fast
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<drizz> it'd be rather trivial to write an extension like this, no?
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<drizz> a gem like iobuffer seems to do this
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<apeiros> drizz: what do you think a native implementation does? if it does it properly, it'll null the alloced area out. but that's about the same as "filling it with nonsense".
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<apeiros> and if you don't do it properly: hellloooo security bug.
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<apeiros> and yes, I think it shouldn't be too hard to write it as a native extension. wouldn't be too hard as a plain ruby thing either.
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<drizz> apeiros: in ruby's case, when manipulating data from a buffer, I'd imagine it'd allocate a new string, copy the contents, and send the old one off to garbage collecting since the original buffer could easily be 16K in size when the contents is only 12 bytes
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<drizz> but perhaps it just keeps the maximum capacity until the string is no longer referenced and then gc'd?
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<apeiros> I'm not quite following your reasoning. but it sounds like your scenario involves changing the buffers size. which is what I said not to do.
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<apeiros> drizz: the source is there. you can check what ruby does in which situation and what its allocation pattern is.
<drizz> yeah, I really should check it
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<drizz> matti: I just finished checking out the source, thanks though :p
<pipework> sawce
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<ebbel> Hi, I'm looking for a way to merge 2 http sessions into one. Something like a proxy which can enable sharing of cookies and sessions.
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<sent-hil> does `Tempfile` have any automatic size management?
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<CodeBunny> Is there anyone around that can help me with rake, and minitest. I am having trouble accessing globally scoped variables when I run my test:all task, and I can't figure out why. I can get to them when I run tasks that grab tests from individual folders.
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<matti> sent-hil: Size management?
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<matti> CodeBunny: Any errors?
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<rhg> warning
<rhg> you may be watched
<rhg> do usa&israel use the internet(facebook,youtube,twitter, chat rooms ..ect)to spy??
<rhg> do they record&analyse everything we do on the internet,,can they harm you using these informations??
<rhg> do usa&israel use the internet 2 collect informations,,can we call that spying??
<rhg> warning
<rhg> ÊÍÐíÑ
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<CodeBunny> matti no errors
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<CodeBunny> the @vars are just not available
<CodeBunny> I set them in setup, and call them in a test...
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<CodeBunny> I can do it when I ren the tests individually, rake the folder, etc.... but not when I rake test:all
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<shevy> sent-hil I guess it will handle size internally. there is a query method #size too http://www.ruby-doc.org/stdlib-1.9.3/libdoc/tempfile/rdoc/Tempfile.html#method-i-size
<matti> CodeBunny: Put it in setup?
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<CodeBunny> I'm using minitest to run watir tests
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<sent-hil> matti: yea, so i don't run out of disk space...i'm select to file#seek to just read the last line from there in forever loop
<sent-hil> *using select
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<gr33n7007h> Is the only difference between TCPSocket.new and TCPSocket.open is that .open takes a block?
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