19:43 <kentonv> JacobWeisz[m], I seem to recall you are into home automation? I'm currently talking to an electrical contractor for my new house, they want to sell me control4 which I clearly don't want (locked-down walled garden, gross), but I'm wondering what I do want.

19:51 <JacobWeisz[m]> I don't recommend my solution. But Z-Wave is probably the closest more open platform that I'd use if starting fresh.

19:51 <JacobWeisz[m]> Z-Wave has opened up their protocol so you no longer need chips from SiLabs specifically.

19:52 <kentonv> ever use OpenHAB or Home Assistant (two open source control servers)?

19:52 <JacobWeisz[m]> It's an RF-based protocol (like Insteon, which I use, which is proprietary) so there's no chance of random devices joining a botnet.

19:53 <JacobWeisz[m]> I wrote my own controller so I have little experience but Home Assistant is probably your best go-to.

19:53 <simpson> Home Assistant is tolerable, but it's got many issues; it is a Python daemon with many plugins, and is sort of like Jenkins in how it's managed.

19:53 <JacobWeisz[m]> Super popular these days, huge amount of integration plugins for various services and devices.

19:54 <JacobWeisz[m]> They also offer kinda a distro offering, HASS, that manages the OS of the device you're running it on, which I used as an example the other day when we were talking about what a Sandstorm distro/box might look like.

19:55 <simpson> It's definitely worth experiencing, so that you can know what you'd prefer to build instead. Or at least that's how I feel about it.

19:55 <kentonv> in theory I'd like to write all my own code but in practice the chance that I'll have time is slim. :) But if it's an open source platform at least I can modify it if I need to...

19:56 <kentonv> JacobWeisz[m], if Insteon is proprietary, how did you manage to write your own controller?

19:59 <JacobWeisz[m]> Insteon's physical layer is proprietary, all third party modules have a chip from the company embedded. But it's computer interface is a COM port and their serial protocol is (or historically was) well-documented.

20:00 <kentonv> what does the serial port communicate with? Some sort of hub I guess?

20:01 <JacobWeisz[m]> It has some nice perks, it runs both Powerline and RF as a dual-band mesh-networked system, so it's very reliable, and it used to also be backwards compatible with X10, which has been around since like the 80's. Z-Wave is RF only but is mesh networked.

20:01 <kentonv> I remember when every ad on the internet was for X10 cameras...

20:02 <JacobWeisz[m]> Control software on the PC talks to the serial port, which then sends out the signal over RF and powerline. Insteon and Z-Wave can also both use standalone hub devices.

20:02 <kentonv> I wish there were a common wired protocol available. This is a new house, I can install any kind of wiring.

20:03 <kentonv> powerline is sorta-wired but can have issues IIRC

20:03 <JacobWeisz[m]> Actually my peeve with Insteon is that they've switched focus to their Hub device instead of computer interface, and ever since, their documentation has literally disappeared.

20:03 <JacobWeisz[m]> Best approximation to that is PoE.

20:04 <JacobWeisz[m]> Ubiquiti offers PoE lights and light switches, but it's not a well-loved product in their portfolio.

20:04 <JacobWeisz[m]> In the commercial space PoE based lighting and switches has some vendors out there.

20:05 <JacobWeisz[m]> If I could afford it, and was building new, I'd be tempted to look at it. It's all for like 4'x2' lighting panels like offices though.

20:07 <JacobWeisz[m]> I like avoiding IP-based automation stuff because it avoids security problems, though I doubt any other wire line standard will happen. If only because the data transfer needs over wire lengths suggests needing something nearing the complexity of Ethernet anyways.

20:09 <JacobWeisz[m]> (The idea of powering overhead lighting solely with ethernet cables feels unholy somehow, but not needing an electrician to install a light fixture also seems particularly worthwhile.)

20:13 <kentonv> I'm OK with IP if it's wired, as I'd use a separate physical network that can't connect to the internet

20:13 <TimMc> JacobWeisz[m]: Hmm, how about via fiber optic? :-P

20:13 <kentonv> not OK with WiFi, though

20:14 <kentonv> the other thing is, I still want regular light switches... I just want to *also* be able to toggle them via computer.

20:14 <JacobWeisz[m]> That's what I did for my IP cameras. It's a VLAN that can't talk to the Internet in case of shady camera firmware.

20:14 <kentonv> ideally, using the physical toggle wouldn't require any software operating correctly

20:15 <JacobWeisz[m]> kentonv: Yeah PoE lighting has PoE wall switches, it's kinda crazy.

20:15 <JacobWeisz[m]> And that's also why I always did smart wall switches instead of that stupid smart bulb craze.

20:16 <JacobWeisz[m]> https://unifi-led.ui.com <- example of both the switches and panels.

20:16 <JacobWeisz[m]> Though, as I said, you might want to seek out a commercial vendor rather than Ubiquiti.

20:19 <kentonv> yeah I think I'm going to be looking for smart switches connected to classical lighting circuits

20:20 <JacobWeisz[m]> I would say look at Z-Wave compatible hardware then. A lot of conventional electrical companies support it.

20:20 <kentonv> heh, I feel a little bad for this electrical contractor, he probably makes the most money on selling fully-configured control4 systems and I'm like "nah I just want some wires and I'll figure out the software myself"

20:20 <JacobWeisz[m]> Leviton does Z-Wave, for instance.

20:21 <kentonv> I saw some GE switches that were advertised as z-wave and zigbee compatible, but also say they ONLY work with GE's hub or something

20:21 <kentonv> I don't get what that even means

20:21 <JacobWeisz[m]> Yeah, I imagine you can get good margins on a "give me a smart home" project.

20:22 <JacobWeisz[m]> Anything Z-Wave should work with any Z-Wave thing, but there's been instances where like Phillips Hue blocked out their app with working with competitor's devices and stuff.

20:22 <JacobWeisz[m]> And got rightly screamed at for doing it by everyone until they rolled back on it a bit.

20:23 <kentonv> there's a lot of contractors out there who specialize in selling overpriced bullshit to rich people, and then I'm like "but I don't actually want any of that" and they get sad...

20:24 <JacobWeisz[m]> Yeah, I look at those $40 million home tours on YouTube and kinda wonder how many millions were just pure markup.

20:24 <kentonv> "Oh you are building a custom house, you must be a rich person who wants to throw money on a fire!" "No I just happen to have an architect for a father and a lot of ideas" "Ohhhh... darn."

20:25 <JacobWeisz[m]> To be fair, their customer base is usually "I don't know how to do it, I just want it to work".

20:25 <kentonv> it's the same thing as those vertu phones

20:25 <JacobWeisz[m]> So configuring all of that to "just work" is where their money comes from.

20:26 <simpson> And also, statistically, people who build custom houses *are* quite wealthy, compared to the average. It's an understandable stereotype.

20:26 <kentonv> Vertu phones are literally strictly inferior to your typical $500-$1000 consumer phone but they have alligator skin or whatever and cost $50,000

20:27 <JacobWeisz[m]> They're not inferior, consumer phones don't have alligator skin! ;)

20:28 <JacobWeisz[m]> Just have to remember that different people value different specifications.

20:28 <kentonv> the reality is that almost everything that actually makes a difference has found its way into mass production and so there's not a lot for rich people to spend their money on these days except bullshit.

22:34 <XgF> kentonv: both Z-Wave and Zigbee seem like reasonable standards to me. Both of them are wireless mesh networks. If you have Zigbee lights they'll function as repeaters so your network should be pretty good at spanning the house

22:36 <XgF> kentonv: in terms of wired stuff, it's pretty much ethernet

22:38 <XgF> As for software & reliability... i've basically never had any issues with some fairly extensive use of a mixture of Philips Hue and IKEA Tradfri Zigbee Light Link stuff, except once I had one lamp which periodically decided to reset itself to a terrible shade of white and very bright

23:03 <JacobWeisz[m]> I recall disliking ZigBee, but I'm not positive why. Less range or a more complicated protocol.

23:04 <JacobWeisz[m]> While I haven't gotten deep into Z-Wave yet, both it and Insteon accept a fairly simple serial command protocol which I found appealing.