azonenberg changed the topic of #scopehal to: libscopehal, libscopeprotocols, and glscopeclient development and testing | | Logs:
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<azonenberg> So, doing an interesting experiment to see how my scopes' performance changes with different configurations
<azonenberg> on the 4 GHz scope, 50 ohm BNC input, leobodnar pulse gen directly connected, 20 Gsps: 70.1 / 100.7 ps 20-80 / 10-90
<azonenberg> Switching to 40 Gsps gives 65.4 / 93.5 ps
<azonenberg> And in 200 Gsps equivalent time, 64.5 / 92.0
<azonenberg> On the 16 GHz scope, 50 ohm BNC input, 40 Gsps: 84.1 / 121.2 ps
<azonenberg> So the BNC inputs on the fast scope actually perform *worse*!
<azonenberg> switching to 200 Gsps equivalent time gives 83.1 / 119.8
<azonenberg> Adding a Rosenberger SMA-BNC adapter and a Times Microwave 12" SMA-BMA adapter, then connecting to the full bandwidth input, gives 20-80 of "<31.9 ps" (off scale fast) and 10-90 of 47.3 ps in 40 Gsps realtime mode
<azonenberg> And in 200 Gsps equivalent time mode, 27.35 ps 20-80 and 39.92 10-90
<azonenberg> Also this is *very* interesting
<azonenberg> the two little ripples I saw in my AKL-PT2 tests are present with the signal generator directly into the scope too
<azonenberg> indicating perhaps it's an artifact of the generator and my probe is flatter than I thought
<azonenberg> Using the SMA pulse generator in real time 40 Gsps mode I get <27.5 and <40.3 ps
<azonenberg> and in equivalent time 200 Gsps mode, 23.7 / 34.2
<azonenberg> including losses in the ~12 inch T-Flex 405 cable, I can get better numbers next week when my LPA-K-A adapters come in
<azonenberg> which will let me couple directly to the scope input with a much shorter delay
<azonenberg> also interesting is that the pulse here actually has some artifacts on the edge too
<azonenberg> they're subtle but there's a little overshoot and some ripples with... about 60ps period?
<azonenberg> (Which I also see in the cal screenshot at manufacture time)
<azonenberg> Trying to think if there's any way i could de-embed that to get a clean rising edge for testing my probes without these artifacts being visible
<bvernoux> very interesting numbers
<bvernoux> It is interesting the big impact with BNC for pulse rise/fall time but I think it is normal as BNC is very limited in bandwidth and so rise/fall time
<azonenberg> well that's the thing though
<azonenberg> The BNC pulse gen gives the best performance with a BNC->SMA adapter, then a SMA->BMA cable, then into the BMA input of the fast scope. As expected
<azonenberg> But the BNC input of the 16 GHz scope is actually less good than the BNC input of the 4 GHz scope
<azonenberg> and just as importantly, while the SMA pulse gen is about 5ps faster than the BNC, the difference is a lot less than i expected
<azonenberg> i.e. the BNC pulse gen plus a BNC-SMA adapter is almost as good as the SMA one
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<bvernoux> yes it is very interesting that BNC-SMA is almost as good as SMA
<bvernoux> it means the Rosenberger SMA-BNC adapter is very good like in the spec
<azonenberg> Yeah. This is the reverse of the one i usualy use
<azonenberg> as it's female BNC to female SMA
<azonenberg> to mate with the pulse gen and go to a standard male-terminated SMA cable
<azonenberg> But my experience is that Rosenberger adapters are extremely high quality
<azonenberg> bvernoux: also did you see the SMA test board i'm making with derek kozel?
<bvernoux> no
<bvernoux> Do you have link ?
<bvernoux> I still need to take time to solder my 6 layers SMA test board from OSHPark
<azonenberg> (old render, will remove soldermask for better repeatability)
<bvernoux> ha yes this one
<azonenberg> I'm using the amphenol SMA I've used in the past, a second version that has basically the same CPWG launch geometry but has PTH pins for alignment
<azonenberg> and then a third that is more targeted to microstrip
<bvernoux> I doubt you can have good perf with 901-10309 SMA connector
<azonenberg> the bottom and middle are about 2/3 the cost of the one at top
<azonenberg> That's the question though :)
<bvernoux> as usually they are very bad for more than 3GHz
<azonenberg> My latest simulations are encouraging
<azonenberg> although this is of course the pcb geometry only and not the connector itself
<bvernoux> yes it will be interesting to see latest results especially with the cheap connector
<azonenberg> i'm hoping to get decent performance to at least 6 GHz with it
<azonenberg> the middle one i'm most excited about
<azonenberg> 901-10510-2 is about 2/3 the cost of 901-10511-3
<bvernoux> middle one is pratically the same as 1st
<azonenberg> roughly 8 vs 12 USD
<bvernoux> does it is easier to solder ?
<azonenberg> iirc
<azonenberg> It has PTH pins under the ground body
<bvernoux> it seems the same mess to solder correctly 1st & 2nd connector
<azonenberg> which should allow much more repeatable positioning
<bvernoux> ha great
<azonenberg> also, even if it's not better
<azonenberg> if it costs less and isn't worse, that's still a reason to switch
<azonenberg> those SMAs are a major component of the BOM cost on the AKL-PT2 for example, as well as a lot of my other test boards
<bvernoux> as I'm using 1st one from other brand and they are very good but too hard to solder correctly in a repeatable way ...
<bvernoux> I think it is also your conclusion when you have soldered tons of them on your boards ?
<bvernoux> alignment even with microscope is touchy ...
<bvernoux> as when you solder connector move ...
<azonenberg> Yes, repeatability is very hard
<bvernoux> let me check the one in middle cheaper and better to solder
<azonenberg> if this board is not a success, and i end up keeping 901-10511-3, i will start thinking about some kind of jig to secure it
<bvernoux> do you have comparison with VNA ?
<azonenberg> I havent made the board yet
<bvernoux> even if it is limited to 6GHz it is good to see if the connector is well soldered and well matched
<azonenberg> i have layout for the top two basically finished
<azonenberg> 901-10309 is proving harder, i'm running some sweeps in sonnet to fine tune the launch geometry still
<bvernoux> as we always see some bad things between 2Ghz to 6GHz when it is not soldered/aligned correctly
<azonenberg> going to be a few days, on a single core it's slooow
<azonenberg> especially when i'm sweeping three variables at once
<azonenberg> it's doing like 30 different combinations
<bvernoux> yes I imagine the design of the 901-10309 is a mess ;)
<azonenberg> But sometimes it's nice to use microstrip
<bvernoux> the ground is so far to center pin that does not help too
<azonenberg> and 901-10511-3 is harder to launch into a microstrip
<bvernoux> especially for 3GHz to 6GHz+
<azonenberg> i can always start with CPWG then figure out a transition to microstrip
<azonenberg> but that's a problem of its own
<bvernoux> yes 901-10511-3 is designed for CGPW
<azonenberg> in fact i might add that to this board for testing
<azonenberg> The other one i might add is Rosenberger 32K243-40ML5
<bvernoux> but it is interesting if you can match it to microstrip
<azonenberg> my thought is to have 901-10511-3 start as GCPW then design a broadband GCPW-microstrip transition
<azonenberg> using the already validated GCPW launch
<azonenberg> But we'll see
<bvernoux> yes interesting
<bvernoux> Do you have seen the VNA2 is available ;)
<bvernoux> for 399USD
<bvernoux> LibreVNA ;)
<azonenberg> Nope, i'm sticking with my picovna until i get something better
<azonenberg> candidates right now are a copper mountain rackmount 4 port 20 ghz vna
<azonenberg> one of keysight's usb vnas
<bvernoux> SW on VNA2 are the best available and fully open source
<azonenberg> or the lecroy wavepulser 40ix
<azonenberg> which is a 40 GHz 4 port TDR that includes some fft math to let you use it as a VNA although with less good dynamic range
<azonenberg> probably good enough for my purposes though
<bvernoux> but the performance are not comparable to PicoVNA or even my old HP8753D ;)
<azonenberg> (i.e. signal integrity more so than RF)
<azonenberg> BTW, when I do get this test board back i should be able to get really accurate test data off it
<azonenberg> i forget if i mentioned what's happening monday?
<bvernoux> no what happen on monday ?
<azonenberg> I'm getting a full cal of basically everything in the lab :) technician from Micro Precision is doing a site visit, i'm taking the day off work
<azonenberg> he's doing the vna, the standard, all of the torque wrenches, the 4 GHz scope, the 1.5 and both 4 GHz differential probes, the R&S multimeters, and the hipot tester
<azonenberg> not bothering with the PSUs as i'll do an internal unofficial cal of them using the R&S meters as standards
<azonenberg> the 16 GHz scope and 13 GHz diff probe are factory fresh from lecroy and have a cal about a week old at this point
<azonenberg> oh and the picoscope is getting a cal too
<bvernoux> ha great
<bvernoux> I imagine it is an expensive Cal Day ;)
<azonenberg> Yeah it's gonna be something like $4K including travel costs IIRC
<azonenberg> But for the kinds of stuff i'm doing it seems worth it to make sure everything is actually properly in tolerance
<bvernoux> yes
<bvernoux> the 3rd SMA connector is very expensive on DigiKey
<bvernoux> 901-10309
<bvernoux> even more expensive than 901-10510-2
<azonenberg> i recall it being around $8
<azonenberg> that's still cheaper than $12
<bvernoux> I do not see the interest in 901-10309 vs 901-10510-2
<azonenberg> I might also try some of the really cheap SMA-J-P-H-ST-EM1 and see how much i can optimize those
<azonenberg> It's for when microstrip is more convenient for your application
<azonenberg> and you dont need as good performance
<bvernoux> I have caracterized some from Aliexpress ;)
<bvernoux> which cost 0.2USD / unit ;)
<bvernoux> and some are good up to 1.5GHz
<bvernoux> I speak about SMA male to SMA male cable with 20cm cable
<bvernoux> So definitively very good for anything under 1GHz when not using expensive SMA connectors/cable ;)
<azonenberg> Yeah thats the idea of this board. Validate footprints and launch transitions for the oshpark stackup, and see just how much performance the nicer connectors buy you
<bvernoux> The 901-10510-2 seems to be a big winner for lot of stuff
<azonenberg> Yes it's my favorite right now, i hope it lives up to the hype
<azonenberg> the repeatable placement and lower cost so far don't seem to come with any downsides
<bvernoux> ha great
<azonenberg> but again i havent tested it yet
<azonenberg> so that could all come crashing down in a few weeks :)
<azonenberg> it's close enough to 901-10511-3 i expect them to act very similar though
<azonenberg> oh also did you see my ddr ram dqs read/write separation tests?
<bvernoux> ha yes nice
<bvernoux> eye diagram on the right is very strange ;)
<azonenberg> not really, there's duty cycle distortion because the DQS thresholding isnt at exactly 50%
<azonenberg> so you get phase shifts between rising and falling edges
<azonenberg> this is part of why ddr2/3/4 use differential DQS
<bvernoux> yes interesting so the eye is not really readable ...
<azonenberg> it's totally readable, it just looks like it has ISI
<azonenberg> (the little glitch in the middle is a different thing, not sure if thats a bug in my decode or what)
<azonenberg> the left eye has the same thing
<azonenberg> as far as the two shifted copies
<bvernoux> yes a bit strange to read it
<bvernoux> what is interesting about 901-10510-2 footprint is it seems fully compatible with 901-10511-3
<bvernoux> the holes shall not have any impact I think
<bvernoux> as I have tons of connectors similar to your 901-10511-3 (from BelFuse)
<bvernoux> About 100 ;)
<bvernoux> Paid less than 5usd/unit so I will use them anyway for my test boards
<azonenberg> Yes, i think 901-10511-3 can fit on the footprint with holes
<d1b2> <mubes> @azonenberg what is the status of the sds2000 pull request? Just discovered y axis scaling is wrong so wondering if to add to that patch or create a new one.... Serves me right for just using noise for testing instead of signals.
<azonenberg> sonnet sim of the two different via layouts shows almost identical results
<azonenberg> mubes: i've been too busy to review it, was going to work on it this weekend
<azonenberg> if you get it done in the next couple hours send to the existing PR
<d1b2> <mubes> No prob. It might update slightly then... Must be about time for you to get some sleep?
<azonenberg> My sleep schedule is completely ruined
<azonenberg> i dont even know where my body clock is... somewhere around hawaii probably? :p
<azonenberg> tokyo?
<bvernoux> woo look at that price
<d1b2> <mubes> :-) it'll be done sometime today.
<bvernoux> 2.11 USD per unit ;)
<bvernoux> but only 4 in stock ;)
<azonenberg> i'm actually trying to roll forward and stay up until mid day saturday
<d1b2> <mubes> That's the problem with working for companies who appreciate results rather than timekeeping .... Which in all other respects is a very good thing.
<azonenberg> then shift further on sunday s.t. by monday when the cal technician comes i'll be able to be awake all day
<azonenberg> and probably crash as soon as he leaves :p
<azonenberg> mubes: well during normal non-apocalyptic times
<azonenberg> i'm expected to be in the lab at least a couple days a week
<azonenberg> This forces me to align my sleep schedule to the bus/ferry schedule, and at least try to somewhat overlap with when coworkers will be in the office
<azonenberg> as that's kinda the point of going in
<azonenberg> This is the same thing that happened to me in grad school
<d1b2> <mubes> I can't get to the lab, it's on another I have to make do with the home stuff.
<azonenberg> i reached a point where i was working on my thesis, had finished all of my classes
<azonenberg> i was the only one in the group who really understood the stuff i was doing
<azonenberg> so i did 90% of the work from home and would go days without seeing another person other than occasionally one of my housemates
<d1b2> <mubes> Grad school was a whole other only had to sync once a week to meet your supervisor.
<azonenberg> yeah that was basically my situation too
<azonenberg> for about the second half of my phd, i was on a week of roughly six 28 hour days
<d1b2> <mubes> And there's always one-more-juicy-puzzle to keep going on.
<azonenberg> My natural circadian cycle is >24 hours in length
<azonenberg> if i work until i'm tired, then sleep until i'm well rested, it's somewhere in the 26-28 hour period range
<azonenberg> something like 20 hours awake and 8 asleep
<azonenberg> When i force myself onto a 24-hour day it usually turns into something like 19-20 awake and 4 asleep then i'm a zombie during the day and hate it
<azonenberg> but by the time evening rolls around i'm wide awake and want to keep going until 2am
<d1b2> <mubes> I finished the work then ended up doing a couple of startups....took me 6 years to write up, and then only cos the uni threatened to terminate it!
<azonenberg> then i have to be up at 6:30 for work and the cycle repeats :p
<d1b2> <zyp> I have the same problem
<d1b2> <zyp> When I were in uni I had a period where I did five day weeks
<d1b2> <mubes> I try to get to bed for 00:00-01:00 to fit in with the rest of the household, but my brain doesn't work in a morning as a result.
<azonenberg> Yeah my wife complains about it :P
<azonenberg> When things return to some semblanec of normalcy i'll see how i can adapt lol
<azonenberg> it will probably take me a while to get used to it again
<azonenberg> I have to get up around 6:30-7 in order to be out the door at 7:30 to be at the office by 9:30ish
<d1b2> <mubes> I think this is some kind of new normal. I've always been home based but my office based colleagues have suddenly discovered the advantages....
<azonenberg> It's a fairly long commute but about an hour of it is on a ferry and a bus, so i can clock in and work on stuff while traveling
<azonenberg> so i often only spend ~6 hours at the office
<d1b2> <mubes> Getting everyone to the office at the same time on the same day for meetings might get 'interesting'
<azonenberg> the rest of the time is on a bicycle from home ->bus, bus -> boat, and boat -> office
<azonenberg> And i work for a global company that is fairly small
<azonenberg> the last official numbers from marketing i saw were 26 countries
<d1b2> <mubes> My commute door to door is about 5 hrs including taxi, plane and I tend to do it in clumps of 3 days.
<azonenberg> but some of those countries are one guy in his house
<azonenberg> or two or three folks who rent an office together
<azonenberg> It's entirely typical for me to go into the office and be working with a guy in Spain the whole day
<azonenberg> from Seattle
<d1b2> <mubes> Yeah, pretty much like us. We're about 225 people across 5-6 countries but perhaps 200 are based at the mothership.
<azonenberg> Which is one of the reasons I used to WFH a lot before covid, because the difference in productivity working with a guy in Madrid from Seattle vs working with the guy in Madrid from home is ~nil
<azonenberg> and my lab at home, other than lack of a SEM/FIB, is nicer than the one at work
<d1b2> <mubes> Ditto, apart from the lack of high speed stuff, cos I can't be bothered with the cost and hassle of calibration overhead.
<azonenberg> realistically the reasons for me to go into the lab in person are either related to my secondary job as lab manager, supervising the facility and making sure stuff is clean and in good working order
<azonenberg> or to interface with coworkers based out of seattle
<d1b2> <mubes> But I do miss the white boards, interaction and coffee.
<azonenberg> as a more senior guy, i often find myself put on solo projects
<azonenberg> but if i'm on a multi-person project and happen to be paired with somebody in seattle, i try to spend a lot of time there to collaborate in person
<bvernoux> Anyway shipping is crazy ;)
<bvernoux> I'm waiting UPS and FedEx and there is no plane ...
<bvernoux> SO delay is like 10 to 15days for premium price paid for fast shipping ...
<d1b2> <mubes> There should be, they're not carrying passengers!
<azonenberg> (we don't have fixed teams since it's a consultancy, the managers pick staff from around the globe to work on each engagement based on their expertise and the nature of the project)
<bvernoux> So when lot of guys/media say Covid is behind it is totally wrong
<azonenberg> The other thing is, as a more senior person I'm also expected to help get the new people up to speed
<azonenberg> bvernoux: a lot of flights were canceled becauase no passengers
<d1b2> <mubes> Yeah, at the mothership we actually move folks desk setup into a common room to work on a project.
<azonenberg> and while ups/fedex have dedicated aircraft
<azonenberg> much of the cargo travels in the holds of passenger flights
<azonenberg> Which arent happening as much
<bvernoux> yes so everything is locked even harder than during 2020 ...
<azonenberg> mubes: yeah we have 2-4 person offices in the upstairs of our lab building
<bvernoux> I remember receiving FedEx/UPS in less than 5 days during 2020 lockdown ...
<azonenberg> then a common break room/lunch area with shared table space people often bring laptops out to
<azonenberg> And obviously if there's hands on lab work happening, people will be downstairs where all of the soldering gear and test equipment is
<azonenberg> That's one thing i'm looking forward to about when everyone is vaccinated and we can get back to the place
<bvernoux> I'm not sure it is for 2021 ...
<bvernoux> with new variant again and again ...
<azonenberg> So far it seems like the vaccines are working well on them
<azonenberg> But we'll see what happens
<azonenberg> Numbers are trending up in my area gain
<azonenberg> again*
<bvernoux> It seems a bit early to know if the vaccine works ;)
<bvernoux> outside laboratory ;)
<d1b2> <mubes> Ours were 4 person but apprently down to 2 now, with Aircon on turbo.
<azonenberg> mubes: yeah right now the lab as a shared workspace is not a thing
<d1b2> <mubes> Its a virus. New variants are forever. This a some kind of new normal....we just need to improve surveillance and keep it whacked down like we do with flu.
<azonenberg> for those who don't have lab facilities at home, they can book the space out for a given part of the work day
<azonenberg> but it's one person in the lab at a time
<azonenberg> mubes: yeah i was hopeful early on that we could lock down 100% and just have it die out for lack of hosts
<azonenberg> Now? the cat's out of the bag
<azonenberg> that's not going to happen
<azonenberg> once most of the population is vaccinated keeping it in check should be a lot easier though
<bvernoux> haha too fun it support KiCad boards !!
<bvernoux> It seems KiCad is a big player now even for Altium ;)
<azonenberg> lol nice
<bvernoux> Anyway I hate such cloud stuff
<bvernoux> especially when we see all those issues with Cloud when they are broken like OVH in France and EEVBLOG in Australia
<bvernoux> What a joke they say 24h running 99.9999% availability
<bvernoux> the things was down during 5days
<bvernoux> I think we will see such issues more and more ...
<bvernoux> On OVH some guys have definitely lost their website/BDD too
<bvernoux> what a joke when we speak about cloud safety redundancy ...
<azonenberg> Yeah...
<azonenberg> I host all of my stuff in house with N+2 redundancy on the data storage
<azonenberg> then offsite backup of that
<bvernoux> So for critical stuff I clearly want to have them offline on my PC without Internet to be mandatory ;)
<bvernoux> It is why OpenSource will win overtime because of that
<bvernoux> To have critical things running offline and not locked to cloud like Office365 stuff or Altium Cloud ...
<azonenberg> Yeah i refuse to use any cloud connected software like that
<bvernoux> Any sane company should thing about that ;)
<bvernoux> But it seems it is not the case for lot of company they think only to profit and externalize everything to cloud cheat ...
<bvernoux> haha what a joke
<azonenberg> Just remember the lesson from OVH
<azonenberg> Smoke is a kind of cloud :p
<bvernoux> for sharing we do not need such cloud things and we can use github/gitlab(or our own git server)... which is clearly better and more controlled
<bvernoux> yes I imagine it is a cloud specific to altium that you cannot choose ...
<bvernoux> which will be hacked or may take fire ...
<bvernoux> azonenberg, do you plan to update the sma-test board ?
<bvernoux> DO you have found a way to add ground cut on the part with KiCad ?
<bvernoux> to improve impedance ...
<bvernoux> IIRC it is not possible to do that on part but shall be done on final design which is not very convenient ... (maybe KiCad 6 has improved that)
<azonenberg> I always do ground cuts in polygon pours manually
<azonenberg> there is not currently a way, at least in 5.1.x, to make a cutout part of a component
<azonenberg> But it's stackup specific anyway
<azonenberg> I'm running a bunch of parameter sweeps in sonnet now
<azonenberg> to optimize pad size and cutout dimensions
<azonenberg> it's probably going to be a few days to finish all 36 combinations of this first sweep
<bvernoux> yes correct anyway depending on stackup ground cuts change so there is definitely a simple way to do it even if it will be possible to do that on the footprint ...
<bvernoux> +not
<bvernoux> will need IA to find the best ground cut/tuning ;)
<azonenberg> yeah i always just do EM sim of the specific stackup i'm using and work off that
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<Degi> Huh, AD9208
<azonenberg> Degi: watching new TSP vid?
<Degi> yes xD
<azonenberg> looks nice for RF, but AD9213 is more my style
<azonenberg> less bits, more sample rate
<Degi> Oh right, that one had 10.25 G
<azonenberg> But only 12 bits, and single ADC
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<d1b2> <j4cbo> re: COVID variants, Moderna is already testing a booster targeted towards them... I think the big open question is, how much can we reduce the lead time between “new variant identified” and “meaningful proportion of population vaccinated”
<Bird|ghosted> j4cbo: there's only one variant (I think it's the South African one) that poses a serious immune escape risk WRT the existing vaccines as things stand now
<d1b2> <mubes> They're talking about 8-12 weeks, to build and trial, but we are already demonstrating that mass production is another issue. Apparently here in the UK were are gene sequencing any positive sample found at a port (airport etc) to identify things as early as possible. We will get this under control, but itll be a long process.
<d1b2> <j4cbo> apparently the whole lipid bubble thing that the mRNA vaccines use depends on some nanofluidics magic that an alarmingly small number of people understand
<d1b2> <mubes> When you dig into what they've achieved and the science it's based on it's truly incredible....I just hope we understand it all as well as we'd like to think we do.
<d1b2> <j4cbo> yeah, the mRNA thing seems like a very elegant hack
<d1b2> <j4cbo> I’m skeptical of the adenovirus approach but I’m no biologist so I’ll trust those that know more than me
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<d1b2> <mubes> @azonenberg any guesses why Convert8BitSamples (it doesn't seem to matter which version) is giving me waveforms that are exactly 3 times too big??? I can't even understand the scale factor!
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<_whitenotifier-5> [scopehal] mubes synchronize pull request #402: Changes to support SDS2000+ scope -
<d1b2> <mubes> Found and fixed. Scope has a fixed 30 values/division sample interval. Given that there are only 8 divisions onscreen the pleasant consequence is that you get slightly more range in scopehal than on the scope screen itself.
<d1b2> <mubes> Quite a lot of information is dynamically conveyed in the wavedesc. Once these changes are committed I'll look to dynamically update the vertical gain, bandwidth limit, probe attenuation and coupling per waveform.
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<azonenberg> Great
<azonenberg> and yeah get as much info from the wavedesc as possible to avoid polling the scope