<stellar-slack>
<mj> What does homeDomain mean right now? It means an account *claims* that it owns a certain domain?
rahatm1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yeah, homeDomain is the field on the account you'll use to look up the memo's hash
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> the homeDomain field is a domain name string
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So homeDomain is a claim that by the account that it owns a domain, and what you're proposing is that the claim be verified using the domain's SSL certificate somehow?
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yes that is the general idea, allow the owner of a stellar account to tie their stellar address to their ssl public key
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And this will be recorded in the ledger?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So I can look up the ledger and I know that on this date this Stellar account and this domain name were linked
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And that's valid for a certain amount of time
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> right, that's the idea. but i haven't thought through it enough to come up with a reasonable implementation plan at this point
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yeah ideally there'd be some expiration date in the ledger for the domain
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> to prove they own the ssl key, we could just have them provide a signature of their stellar address with the ssl private key
<stellar-slack>
<mj> This is exactly what I'm looking for
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I'll keep an eye on that discussion
<stellar-slack>
<mj> If they're serving the stellar.txt over HTTPS with that certificate, then you know they own the SSL key
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So what entity is going to do the verification, the Stellar daemon? When a new account is created?
<stellar-slack>
<jed> no homeDomian isn't yours it would be the domain of your gateway or whoever does your federation service
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I see, so homeDomain would be, for example, http://stellar.org|stellar.org
<stellar-slack>
<jed> yeah
<stellar-slack>
<mj> For mailto:example@stellar.org|example@stellar.org
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Right
<stellar-slack>
<jed> yep
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> right so home domain is used for federation
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And this statement is signed with http://example.com|example.com's Stellar key
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Now there must be a way to verify that the Stellar address does indeed belong to http://example.com|example.com
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Alternatively, the statement could be signed with http://example.com|example.com's SSL key
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> signing with the stellar address (if possible to verify the link from domain => stellar address in the ledger) provides a stronger guarantee of security. for instance if http://example.com|example.com is compromised, it could return a bogus payment address to the customers
sv-logger has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sv-logger has joined #stellar-dev
<stellar-slack>
<jed> mj: why doesn't http://example.com|example.com just tell you its address right there on the site like send to: pay*http://example.com|example.com this would be verified by http://example.com|example.com
<stellar-slack>
<mj> No, http://example.com|example.com does give you its address, and you know its valid because you're accessing this over HTTPS
<stellar-slack>
<jed> but why doesn't it?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> But later if you make a payment and http://example.com|example.com reneges on its promise to give you the content you paid for, then you need proof that it had made the promise in the first place
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So the client needs to store a JSON object that's signed with the server's Stellar key (linked to its domain) or its SSL key
<stellar-slack>
<mj> e.g. you click on a link that's supposed to be the latest Avengers movie, and they're asking for 100 STR for it (behind a 402 Payment Required page). If you pay, you get to download the movie.
<stellar-slack>
<mj> What I want is that if you pay and you don't get the movie, you can publish proof that this server is a fraud. You have a signed statement.
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You also have proof that you've made a payment against this statement (the memo field).
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> what the client needs is a signed {address, payment amount, url} with the address' private key
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> why does the server's stellar key need to be linked to the server's domain in this case?
pixelbeat has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> you want to be able to 1) prove that the server controlled that stellar address, and 2) provide the signature for the JSON object that promised content for payment.
TheSeven has quit [Disconnected by services]
[7] has joined #stellar-dev
<stellar-slack>
<mj> A signature with the Stellar key doesn't say anything about the server's domain unless the key is linked to the domain
<stellar-slack>
<mj> If I gave you a Stellar signature and said that this belongs to http://example.com|example.com, I would also have to prove it
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> what benefit do you see to signing with the stellar key vs signing with the ssl key?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Stellar signature is smaller for one
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And the Stellar address is already included in the payment request
<stellar-slack>
<mj> With the SSL key, I would have to include a huge signature and also the entire certificate chain
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And I am trying to do this with HTTP headers
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You spend a minute or more on a page, and if the page has a Bitcoin address, your browser-based wallet (Chrome extension) automatically makes a $0.01 donation to that address
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Drive-by donations
<stellar-slack>
<mj> This is a way to reward small publishers, but without having to think about it
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You just refill your wallet and forget about it
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Now with the Bitcoin version we're dealing with keys, and I don't want to that with Stellar
<stellar-slack>
<mj> In the Stellar version, the user just enters a username and a passphrase, and the client downloads the wallet from http://stellar.org|stellar.org and uses it to make the donations
<stellar-slack>
<mj> No keys
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Is this the right way to do it?
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> wow, this is also really cool
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I think micropayments are going kill the online ad industry :simple_smile:
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Or at least that's what I hope :smile:
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> i think our official policy on fetching http://stellar.org|stellar.org wallets on behalf of users is "discouraged"
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I see
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> this is to avoid phishing.
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So right now the best way then is to generate a new address for the built-in donation wallet and ask the user to transfer a small amount to it
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yeah
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Like 100 STR, for example
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> exactly
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You know any popular API for getting the exchange rate between USD and STR?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So my thing is kind of almost exactly like BIP-70, which makes it redundant to Bitcoiners
<stellar-slack>
<mj> But what I've made is currency agnostic
<stellar-slack>
<mj> It can work with Stellar and Ripple too
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And it's specifically for micropayments
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> maybe you can make it BIP-70 compliant while still supporting stellar/ripple
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah, I was thinking that too
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> the cool thing about the stellar use case is sending in other currencies like USD
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So the server doesn't need to care about Stellar at all
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I mean as long as they have a Stellar account and they accept USD at that address, then they can just start making USD by selling premium content
<stellar-slack>
<mj> They don't really care about STR volatility and all that
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> exactly
<stellar-slack>
<mj> The thing is, you shouldn't have to sit throught a 10-second YouTube ad because that's the only way Google knows how to monetize YouTube
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> i would GLADLY pay a penny to skip youtube ads
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> but that kind of canabalizes Google's entire revenue stream right?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Exactly
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I don't know what it does to Google's revenue stream per se, but at least paying should be an option
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> so you've got the http micropayments, the drive by donations..have you written a tip jar?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> People have written off micropayments because there's friction
<stellar-slack>
<mj> It has to be frictionless
<stellar-slack>
<mj> No, I want to make a Donate button
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Like you just embed this button on your page (say below each blog post), and anyone who has the browser plug-in just has to click on it
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Like clicking on the Facebook Like button
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You set up your wallet once, and then you can keep donating to websites you like
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Just one click
<stellar-slack>
<mj> The amount is always fixed: 1 cent.
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> regarding friction, i think the biggest part of that friction is first of all HAVING a cryptocurrency wallet to pay these channels
<stellar-slack>
<mj> True
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> my ideal scenario is: 1) i see a donate button on a site, 2) i click that button, 3) a wallet is created for me automatically and funded with 10 cents to give me 9 more tips
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> facebook auth
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Hmm ... so that gets you started
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> if they've got the facebook cookie
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Right
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yeah, as the tip button creator, you've gotta pay that small cost (like your faucet) to get people on board with ZERO friction
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> one click, done
<stellar-slack>
<mj> This is a good idea
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And there should be a profile page where you can see what sites you've donated to (and optionally make that information public)
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> the facebook auth dialog is another click, but perhaps you can at first just make it cookie based
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> just to spread it
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Right
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And you earn badges
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Like, you know, if you donate a lot, you earn a gold badge or something
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So that way you have an incentive to do it, I mean to show off to your friends, etc.
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> that's good, and that ties into the next step: focus on the viral. make it stupid easy to "tip" their facebook friends, if you've got their fb auth token
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> they tip there friend, and a wallet is automatically created with that tip, redeemable for their friends facebook auth token
stellar-slack has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
stellar-slack has joined #stellar-dev
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So that's like ChangeTip ... sort of?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You tip first, and they can collect their tip if they create an account
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> sort of, but i don't like change tip's design, too much friction. anyway its just an idea to spread the app
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> its the classic chicken and egg problem. you've got to get websites to use the 402 header/drive by tip/donate button, but they won't put in the time for that unless there's users actually tipping them.
<stellar-slack>
<mj> It can start with a meta tag
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Adding a meta tag doesn't cost anything
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> although the incentive to get paid weighs heavily on the content creator, thus tipping the balance in that direction, so i think you're going with the right approach: stupid easy to integrate into the website
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And it might earn you some money
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> exactly, focusing on the integrators first
<stellar-slack>
<mj> A Donate button takes up real estate, so that's a decision one has to make
<stellar-slack>
<mj> But meta tag is easy
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yes it is. but it also relies on the user to install a browser extension correct?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yes
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So some people may add the Donate button, which will get users to install the extension, which will turn incentivize the meta-taggers to upgrade to a Donate button
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yeah im just not sure _why_ the users will install the extension
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You can't pay without the extension
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> streaming sites.
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> chan131.so
<stellar-slack>
<mj> At least as far as I know, you have two options: (1) display a Stellar address (QR code) and the user pays to that address using the http://stellar.org|stellar.org wallet, or (2) if the extension is installed, the user pays using the built-in wallet (which is one click)
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> they would for sure integrate the pay button
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> and people would for sure pay 1cent
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> that's your niche
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> right there
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I think people would pay 1 cent on a lot many more sites
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Blogs, for example
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> voluntarily? maybe. paywall? not sure if blogs want paywalls.
<stellar-slack>
<mj> No, voluntarily
<stellar-slack>
<mj> It's like clicking the Like button
<stellar-slack>
<mj> 1 cent is nothing
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Plus you're building a social profile
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> true, but i read hundreds of blog articles a week, read the first few paragraphs, move on and don't click anything.
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> now the gamification part, there might be something there..
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Sure, but sometimes you share it on Twitter, and sometimes you save it to your http://del.icio.us|del.icio.us
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So sometimes you would click on Donate button
<stellar-slack>
<mj> But who knows, you never know what works
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> indeed you do not
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> well, at least the friction needs to go
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> starting with getting the user that wallet in the quickest way possible
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> i think a simple cookie based solution would work really well for the short term, they can start tipping real money immediately
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> once they run out, "connect with facebook" for another $25 cents
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So you're saying to do this even without a proper Facebook OAuth?
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> yeah why not
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Right ... a hack
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah, why not
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> sure, but lets assume that you only put up 1000 stellars initially
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> you said it yourself, no one pointed a botnet at your twitter faucet
<stellar-slack>
<mj> No, no one did
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> not because people can't, but because it's not worth it
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I mean it's so easy :simple_smile:
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Exactly
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> such a small amount would let you fly under the radar of the hackers, but get people to start using your button with a single click
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> giving you a great initial user base, and a test bed to expiriment
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah, I know
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> anyway, just food for thought :simple_smile:
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah, definitely, gotta experiment with that one
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Do you know any good designers around here?
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Say I want to create a pretty-looking Donate button
<stellar-slack>
<mj> If there's anyone I could partner with
<stellar-slack>
<mj> I mean this is all experimental open source stuff
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> when you put it in "human" terms, like a "cup of coffee" or "another video", it gives it a crowdfunding like appeal, rather than just the abstract notion of money
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah, I like the cup of coffee thing
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Like someone just taught you how to set up SSL with nginx (or something like that), and you say you owe them a cup of coffee
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> (or a beer) :smile:
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah :simple_smile:
<stellar-slack>
<mj> So maybe there should be a dropdown with payment options
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Beer, coffee, ... hug (no money)
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> haha hugs are free though!
<stellar-slack>
<eva> pfff maybe yours are!
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah, so there's no Stellar transation, but you still it on your profile
<stellar-slack>
<mj> And it's the last option in the dropdown, so you have to be real cheap to go for that one :smile:
<stellar-slack>
<eva> heh
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Wow, pretty good
<stellar-slack>
<eva> I think the key is to make it fun and exciting for the content creators
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Yeah, it shouldn't really be about money (nothing is really about money, says Gordon Gekko), it should be about people showing appreciation for your work
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> i'm in .au and one of my problems is purchasing any digital currency
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> easiest ive seen so far is PurseIO to get some BTC
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Hmm ... and you got some STR for free, right?
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> i did
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> i'm only a few hours of research into STR so i cant really comment much on it's market utility
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> BTC you can buy a pizza with in at least some places of the world, use an ATM at others
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> Stellar got my attention because of Stripes involvement, and it seems to have more "official" support and interest
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> haven't found much use for it yet
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> i understand the distinction between currency and infrastructure/services/protocols too :simple_smile:
<stellar-slack>
<mj> You can't buy much with it yet
<stellar-slack>
<eva> @benrussell the more gateways (entry/exit points) come on board, the more useful and robust the network will become. Ultimately, it shouldn't matter if you can buy digital currency or not- you can just put Australian dollars on the network and go from there. But yeah, it's definitely just starting out right now :simple_smile:
<stellar-slack>
<mj> Early days
<stellar-slack>
<eva> the currency itself isn't the main draw though, imo. It's the ability to use any kind of value on it.
<stellar-slack>
<eva> yeah :simple_smile:
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> well my bank of choice is very pro technology so i hope they choose to participate
<stellar-slack>
<eva> hope so too, @benrussell
<stellar-slack>
<eva> also, random things you can use STR to buy: wine, VPN services, mobile minutes
<stellar-slack>
<eva> I can find links if you're interested
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> i'd seen the mobile minutes, but it was limited to Indonesia in the story i found
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> @benrussell: which bank are you referring to?
<stellar-slack>
<eva> @benrussell: this is the one I was referring to https://www.piiko.com/
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> @andrew Commonwealth Bank Aust
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> @eva thanks!
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> no support :smile: .au is an afterthought in the global market, numbers just dont matter (california is bigger..)
<stellar-slack>
<eva> shoot :confused:
<stellar-slack>
<eva> sorry about that
<stellar-slack>
<eva> it's funny you say that - some of the most innovative finance folks seem to be in Australia
<stellar-slack>
<eva> you guys may just surprise the world
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> yeah but the telcos....
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> eesh.
<stellar-slack>
<eva> yeah
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> whats the story with the telcos?
<stellar-slack>
<andrew> same as all telcos worldwide? :wink:
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> lots of space between urban centers
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> you wanna lay a cable you're gunna spend a lot of money
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> im on ADSL that's good for about 330 kilobytes/second max
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> down
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> :neutral_face:
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> http://twitch.tv|twitch.tv stream? cant even watch.
<stellar-slack>
<eva> whoa
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> but we're spending 31 billion on a national fiber telco to replace the one we sold (telstra) a decade ago!
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> still be on copper to the home.
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> telco probably wont put a new DSL node in
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> national throughput better, home speed same.
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> :sob:
<stellar-slack>
<eva> :crying_cat_face:
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> *sound of a thousand modems negotiating* .... could be worse
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> :smile:
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> on a more relevant note, consumer rejection of "tap to pay" is pretty high
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> people are suspicious of NFC
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> there's also delays in the transaction appearing in your account
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> 1-4 days
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> which can be a massive annoyance to the average persons budget
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> i was doing retail work for a grocery chain when they introduced the readers, tried to "intro" a lot of people and they just didnt care or didnt want
<stellar-slack>
<eva> yeah, instant clearance is super important for a variety of reasons
<stellar-slack>
<eva> yeah
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> reader failure is also _ridiculously_ high
<stellar-slack>
<benrussell> if you take your phone in to pay for gas (we dont have readers on most pumps) then you'll be going back to your car for your cards.
koolhead17 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
koolhead17 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
koolhead17 has quit [Read error: No route to host]
koolhead_ has joined #stellar-dev
HostFat has joined #stellar-dev
rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
koolhead_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rejon has joined #stellar-dev
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
pixelbeat has joined #stellar-dev
rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
koolhead17 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
koolhead17 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
rejon has joined #stellar-dev
nelisky has joined #stellar-dev
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
<stellar-slack>
<webber> hi, i am running stellard and trying to connect to as many peers as possible but with no luck. i set [peers_max] in stellard.cfg to 1000 but can only connect to 3 peers. am i missing something?
<stellar-slack>
<jed> there aren't 1000 nodes running
nelisky has quit [Quit: nelisky]
wwu has left #stellar-dev ["Leaving..."]
nelisky has joined #stellar-dev
<stellar-slack>
<webber> @jed thanks! i know there are probably no 1000 nodes running, but i expected to connect to a few more, because without specifying peers_max explicitly, i connected to 3 peers. with it, i still connected to 3 peers. i'm wondering if there's something wrong with my settings
<stellar-slack>
<jed> I think it is probably ok
koolhead17 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<stellar-slack>
<webber> ok, thanks
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
koolhead17 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
TheNightMan has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
koolhead17 has joined #stellar-dev
nelisky has quit [Quit: nelisky]
<stellar-slack>
<scott> horizon testnet going down for a while while I update it to the latest schema and re-import history