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<rqou> offtopic: half of today's @scanlime stream is "linux networking sucks at UX"
<lain> news at 11
<rqou> are the BSDs better?
<lain> hm
<lain> I'm not sure, have any specific examples of something that sucks in linux?
<rqou> scanlime was trying to "take over" a physical ethernet device into a bridge
<rqou> but this involves a lot of screwing around with assigning/deassigning ip addresses
<lain> ah
<lain> never messed with bridging in freebsd, but there's a handbook entry for it: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/network-bridging.html
<lain> looks pretty simple
<rqou> linux is pretty simple until you hit the footguns
<rqou> such as "you can assign an ip to the physical device but that doesn't do anything"
<lain> freebsd is not without its footguns, but usually there's enough docs that you won't hit them, in my experience
<rqou> linux has docs too, it's just that some of them suck, some of them are deprecated, and some other ones actually work
<davidc___> er? the bridge stuff isn't too hard; once you understand the networking stack in the kernel, and the utilities to use..... :D
<rqou> but you don't always know which is which :P
<lain> haha
<rqou> it's not hard if you do this all the time
<rqou> it's rather painful if you don't normally do "network stuff" and just want to e.g. "make my raspi plug this virtual device into this physical device"
<lain> I'm sure this is true of some linux distros, but one of the core reasons I prefer freebsd is the handbook and manpages are kept up to date, and almost always know how to do what I want to do, with good explanations of all the quirks
<davidc___> TBH, when I want to do custom network fuckery; I prefer whatever distro doesn't try and manage it for me
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<cyrozap> I just noticed that Cypress is making an attempt to contribute code to OpenOCD to add support for the PSoC 6: http://openocd.zylin.com/4058
<rqou> nice except that openocd is still a pain in the *** to use :P
<cyrozap> What problems are you having with it?
<rqou> it works, it's just not great
<cyrozap> Oh, yeah, there are lots of things that need work.
<cyrozap> But anyways, this email thread (https://sourceforge.net/p/openocd/mailman/message/35726490/) and the comments on that patch are kind of funny to read, if they weren't so sad :P
<rqou> right, gerrit
<rqou> i've used (and "supported") gerrit before and it's doubly unintuitive for people who don't already "get it"
<rqou> first you have to understand git, and then you have to understand gerrit's data/workflow model that is added on top of git
<cyrozap> Yeah, Gerrit is a pain to deal with if it's your first time dealing with it. OpenOCD's developer docs have instructions, but they still assume knowledge of Git. Maybe I should help out with that...
<rqou> it's still an uphill battel
<rqou> *battle
<rqou> believe me, i've been in this situation before
<cyrozap> Anyways, besides the Gerrit issues, the first commit starts with a GPL violation. Not only did they slap the standard Cypress copyright header on the file, they removed the header that was on the PSoC 4 code they based their new driver on.
<cyrozap> I believe you
<rqou> personally i like gerrit's workflow much better than github's pull request workflow
<rqou> but apparently "the majority" disagrees with me :P
<whitequark> there's also phabricator
<whitequark> though phab is more of "github pull requests designed by someone with large projects in mind"
<whitequark> than a totally different workflow
<cyrozap> rqou: I kind of like it, too, but it requires a lot of initial setup on the dev's side.
<rqou> unfortunately they fixed it, but previously you could have fixed it for the average "noob user" by checking in ".Git/hooks/commit-msg" :P
<cyrozap> Not sure what you mean?
<rqou> IME the biggest setup issue with gerrit is getting the commit-msg hook in the correct place
<cyrozap> Oh, wait, I see
<cyrozap> So you mean committing the hook to the repo itself?
<rqou> git previously had a security vulnerability that you could exploit to place the file in the right place for windows/osx
<rqou> only works on "inferior" filesystems :P
<cyrozap> Ah, yes, the case-insensitive FS bug
<cyrozap> Also, not sure if you noticed in the PSoC 6 patch comments, the PSoC 6 also has an SROM, so let's see how long it takes before someone hacks it :)
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<lain> lul
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<flaviusb> My search-fu is failing me: was someone working on mapping tile maps/routing information for fpgas and writing it up in forth on this channel?
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<pointfree> flaviusb: I'm doing a Forth HDL, if that's what you're asking about.
<Zarutian> pointfree: really?
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<Zarutian> pointfree: I take it is much better to work with that verilog or VHDL.
<pointfree> Zarutian: It looks just like regular forth, only interactive and with implicit parallelism.
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<pointfree> It should be possible to run the same high level forth code on the ARM side once the USB driver is fully fleshed out.
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<pointfree> I'm factoring things such that the ARM machine code instructions are viewed as hard-ip -- and as a target for logic synthesis.
<pointfree> I asked Cypress how many UDB's the PSoC 6 has. They confirmed that there're currently 12, but they say they have space to add more. https://twitter.com/lowfatcomputing/status/841675985946791937
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<flaviusb> pointfree: That was probably what I was after. Do you have a website or repository for it that I could look at?
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<pointfree> I should bring the website up to date because it has changed a lot over time and most of the code and notes reside only on my laptop. I can change that if you're interested in hacking on this too.
<pointfree> I haven't pushed to my public repos in a while.
<pointfree> Some of it is here: http://hub.darcs.net/pointfree
<pointfree> At the moment I am, among other things fleshing out the USB driver so it can all be done from the ARM side.
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<pointfree> flaviusb: http://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/psoc-formulas is probably what you are looking for. I can clean up what I have on my laptop and push updates to that repo. I now essentially have full routability from pin through pld to output pin.
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<rqou> hrm, does anybody know whether unix command line arguments are supposed to be "bytes" or "characters"?
<jn__> both?
<rqou> ok, rephrasing the question:
<rqou> which option will make people less upset: requiring a command line argument to be passed in as iso-8859-1 vs requiring a command line argument to be passed in as utf-8 and converted internally into iso-8859-1
<jn__> depends on the system locale, i guess
<jn__> why do you need iso-8859-1 at all?
<rqou> vhdl's source character set is mandated to be iso-8859-1
<rqou> and the accented letters are explicitly allowed in identifiers
<jn__> IANAUNIXL, but i'd read the arguments in the system locale (or just UTF-8, because that's objectively^W the best system locale), and convert them into iso-8859-1
<rqou> hrm, is the clipboard in linux a byte interface or character interface?
<rqou> also, what is "the system locale" and how does one determine it?
<rqou> hrm, i just noticed an extra fun footgun
<rqou> afaik you can tell your vhdl tool to analyze design units into a library named "\IEEE\" or "\work\" which are distinct from "IEEE" and "work"
<rqou> in other words, your library name can be an extended identifier
<jn__> i *really* don't know the details, so i won't be able to help you much, but i have LANG=en_US.UTF-8 on my linux system
<rqou> i do too, but having my compiler magically do totally different things based on an environment variable seems dumb
<rqou> what happens if somebody decides to set LANG=ru_RU.KOI8-R? can i just not refer to certain VHDL identifiers now?
<jn__> hmm, that's… ugly
<rqou> i guess i can code it as "you must somehow pass in the bytes corresponding to iso-8859-1"
<rqou> "if your filenames are in a different encoding, too bad. you get to figure out how to smush the bytes together"
<rqou> which was always somewhat the case anyways because filenames in linux can be arbitrary byte sequences
<rqou> btw you thought this was terrible? vhdl extended identifiers can contain soft hyphens
<rqou> footguns all around!
<rqou> but they cannot contain utf-8 because they cannot contain "c1 control codes"
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