<devyn>
whitequark: well Windows uses SMB for network file access
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<whitequark>
devyn: that was it
<devyn>
apparently it's called CIFS now because Microsoft has to put "common" in everything so that they can make it a standard
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<joelteon>
microsoft doesn't need standards
<joelteon>
i thought they hated standards
<devyn>
they do. they make their own and then extinguish the existing standard and replace it with theirs
<devyn>
there's so much NIH syndrome up in that place
<whitequark>
granted, when you're the size of microsoft, you have pretty good excuses for quite some nih
<devyn>
except that what they end up creating usually has way more feature creep and bloat than the original
<alexgordon>
the problem is that microsoft does not or cannot hire good programmers
<alexgordon>
like apple apparently can
<devyn>
I don't think that's the problem
<devyn>
I think the problem is the way they measure performance
<devyn>
and then are so draconian about enforcing it
<alexgordon>
apple's open source code is really nicely written, microsoft's... not so much (excluding stuff that comes out of microsoft research)
<alexgordon>
then again, apple's example code is crap
<devyn>
I reeeeally don't think it's necessarily because they're bad programmers, though
<alexgordon>
well if they weren't bad programmers, it wouldn't be so bad
<alexgordon>
like, I wouldn't mind MS implementing their own C++ compiler if it was any good!
<devyn>
the feature creep doesn't come from incompetent programmers but from incompetent management
<alexgordon>
but VC++ is crap (ok so it predates clang by a long time, so this isn't exactly fair)
<devyn>
and the feature creep, I'm sure, prevents them from being so thorough about each feature
<whitequark>
MS research shares just about only the name with MS
<devyn>
at work I'm doing stuff with Microsoft Dynamics CRM's OData API
<whitequark>
huh, HOTD has a surprisingly accurate portrayal of a nuclear EMP strike
<devyn>
OData is REST-like, while the alternative is SOAP (ew)
<devyn>
except that even though Microsoft itself created OData
<whitequark>
I really wonder how would that play out with present-day electronics
<devyn>
MSCRM doesn't implement it properly
<whitequark>
like, for real
<whitequark>
I think there wasn't any tests since the ban treaty
<alexgordon>
oh huh I didn't know MS research was based in the REAL cambridge
<alexgordon>
I thought it was in the fake one
<alexgordon>
though apparently they have a small outpost there too
<devyn>
haha
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<devyn>
also, the MSCRM API's documentation on MSDN is mostly autogenerated with no content whatsoever
<alexgordon>
devyn: apple has some stuff like that
<alexgordon>
lots of APIs have no documentation, just headers, or the documentation is autogenerated
<devyn>
alexgordon: I'm sure they don't improperly implement *their own company's goddamn specification* though
<alexgordon>
you want a bet? ;)
<devyn>
ok they probably do
<devyn>
:p
<devyn>
but still MS is evil blah blah blah
<alexgordon>
yep
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<devyn>
the only reason OData exists is because Microsoft went "hey, SOAP is a crock of shit, people are using REST for HTTP APIs now, let's do that" but then said "oh but we can't expect people to use it any differently than SOAP so we'll have to make a SOAP-like abstraction"
<alexgordon>
whitequark: there have been tests since then ban treaty I think
<alexgordon>
also there are labs that test electronics with EMPs... they do not fare well
<whitequark>
actually, I dunno if it's accurate
<whitequark>
there's very little openly available material
<whitequark>
also I'm not sure if realistic portrayal of HEMP is that important for a series about essentially zombies
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
it's also too far from usual for any back-of-the-envelope calculations to make any sense
* whitequark
sighs
<whitequark>
i probably should stop obsessing over it, but that would take all fun from it!!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: you're parsing Rust code in Rust?
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: no, parsing *paws* code in rust
<cuttle>
:OOO
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cool!
<cuttle>
:D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so weird, that to you people, parsing is the go-to task “so easy that you use it to learn a new environment”
<cuttle>
hahahah
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
it's literally how i've been learning rust though
<cuttle>
i know most of rust now
<cuttle>
a little spotty on the pointer types
<cuttle>
but mostly get them
<cuttle>
it's really fucking cool
<cuttle>
static verification of no null pointers
<cuttle>
or memory leaks
<cuttle>
anyway i figured i'd embrace the spirit of paws and do the lexing/parsing all async/concurrently
<cuttle>
so the lexer and the parser and the main function are separate tasks
<cuttle>
and the main function feeds the lexer chars, and the lexer feeds the parser tokens
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ooooo
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
async ('=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hmmmm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
since I said just go-ahead with semicolons, that means actual asynch scheduling/evaluation alongside parsing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which means, waaaaaay faster IPP
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which means happy-things for obvious reasons
<cuttle>
hm
<cuttle>
wait what?
<cuttle>
like
<cuttle>
halfway through parsing you're already executing?
<cuttle>
is that what you mean?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
mmhmm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which is beneficial when you're probably™ going to be throwing away that execution *anyway*, re-parsing, and starting over
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if, for instance, the first line of the file defines everything the IPP needs to know to preform a transformation, then it can learn-about and preform that transformation without even finishing parsing the entire file.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and short-circuit that parsing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
makes the IPP much more realistic for large codebases, I'd wager
<cuttle>
oh ipp
<cuttle>
ok
<cuttle>
though you meant
<cuttle>
inter-process communcation
<cuttle>
which is what i have been doing in rust
<cuttle>
which is what paws is built on
<cuttle>
which is the established Computer Science™ acronym
<cuttle>
lol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: parsing is more like
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
IPC?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what?
<whitequark>
it's the part which sort of stresses the target language really well and makes it show you all its worth
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah lol idk
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what's IPC got to do with the parsing stuff we're chatting about
<whitequark>
works in reverse too
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nothing
<cuttle>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
look, no more in-caps lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I exorcised my demons
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and/or girlfriends
<cuttle>
waithwat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm working on a stupidly-ambitious, yak-farming-y pretty-printer in node
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and talking to you makes me want to stop that, slap myself, and build something insane
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this is entirely too sane for me ;_;
<cuttle>
haha
<cuttle>
i think honestly
<cuttle>
that there is a better way to do things than the ipp
<cuttle>
somehow
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
probably. needs chatting about.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the problem is, trying to find better solutions, starts delving into computer-science territory I don't care about.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or at least, don't-care-about *yet.*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you could probably do some *really* neat stuff, far beyond lisp macros, with static analysis and a dynamic parser kinda thing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, here's what I'd prefer:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
a language design that isn't *dependant*, in any way, on the existence of an IPP
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then an IPP as the slow, elliott-solution.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then, perhaps, we can design some sort of fairly conservative *API* for the IPP,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then somebody else can reverse-engineer from that API to a static solution, something mostly (or fully) code-compatible with the code-systems running on top of the slow-elliottcable-ipp.
* cuttle
nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol what even the fuck, whitequark
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: fairly obviously, I've already been working towards something like that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm trying to put off too much thought about the IPP until *after* the important, in-language stuff, the stuff that *can* change the design
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then I want to dive into designing my IPP with flipped goals: this time, *not* changing the design being the primary goal, instead of making the interface pretty/happy being the primary goal (and changing the design happily if necessary), as I have been with everything else
<cuttle>
haha whitequark that's way cool
<cuttle>
someone should implement befunge as a leidenfrost maze
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: we need to get working satisfactory non turing tarpit paws
<cuttle>
which is my current goal with paws.rs
<cuttle>
and then
<cuttle>
we will make:
<cuttle>
insanities
<cuttle>
federation/distribution
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
micahjohnston: "someone should implement befunge as a leidenfrost maze" wat.
<purr>
beep.
<cuttle>
macros
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
go for it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
let me know how I can help.
<cuttle>
cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
mmmm
<cuttle>
ok done for the night
<cuttle>
class tomorrow
<cuttle>
but you best believe a working paws.rs is in the near future
<cuttle>
night
* ELLIOTTCABLE
grins
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glad you're enjoying the fuck out of rust.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I need to learn it. Hm. I may even dive in, if you keep your code clean. <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Jesus, what have I gotten myself into
<purr\GH>
woof/Master+ acf51fb elliottcable: (new meta module) Writing in CoffeeScript, publishing compiled JS
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
6:21 AM <jan____> yeah, you’ve been a bit of a dick when you came in, but this is our first encounter, so I will try to convert you :)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, the poor thing. he's got no idea.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Everyone in this channel is too nice. I can't handle it. I put up with it to try, to try *so hard*, to convey my point (which I considered important enough to join *somebody else's IRC channel*, to argue on *their home turf*, against *their project* and *their philosophies* … so yeah, that was obviously pretty important to me),
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and managed, swallowing SO MUCH bile, to reach a reasonable outcome where the primary person I was talking to understood maybe ten percent of what I was trying to say,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but I'm done. so, very, very done.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon: COME CURSE ME OUT, PLEASE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon: or just talk about waffles or something, whatever it is you do.
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<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: wait what community, irc channel, home turf, project, etc.
<cuttle>
?
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<joelteon>
dude so it turns out i'm a big dumb stupid idiot
<joelteon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: suck a dick bro
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<joelteon>
wow
<joelteon>
oh, wait, was that last night
<joelteon>
damn
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<joelteon>
dude
<joelteon>
how do you figure out if you have a concussion
<cuttle>
webmd
<joelteon>
good idea
<gkatsev>
warning: webmd will also let you know that you are dying from about 20 different conditions.
<joelteon>
that's the joke, isn't it
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<alexgordon>
joelteon: did you hit your head?
<joelteon>
i fell off my bike and one of the handlebars hit me in the temple
<alexgordon>
joelteon: do you still feel strange an hour afterwards?
<joelteon>
sort of
<joelteon>
i'm an intense hypochondriac
<alexgordon>
yeah
<joelteon>
it still hurts where it hit my head
<alexgordon>
probably ok if you don't have any symptoms
<joelteon>
my pupils are the same size, i can balance properly/walk
<alexgordon>
except for bruising
<joelteon>
yeah, there's gonna be bruising
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<cuttle>
joelteon: yeah if it just hurts but you don't have like weird pupils or balance you're probably ok
<cuttle>
(trust me i know everything about medicine)
<alexgordon>
cuttle: lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
cuttle: so what are you going to be when you grow up?
<alexgordon>
:P
<alexgordon>
a doctor? a bus driver? particle physicist?
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<joelteon>
devyn: my first use of sudo -e today
<joelteon>
i am so happy
<prophile>
easy to please
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<joelteon>
god why does haskell-src-exts take so long to compile?
<joelteon>
removing it takes my build from 7 and a half minutes to 2 and a half minutes
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<prophile>
joelteon: presumably because it has TH magic in it
whitequa1k is now known as whitequark
<cuttle>
alexgordon:
<cuttle>
not sure. i want to do things about brains
<cuttle>
neuroscience
<cuttle>
but math and physics are also really cool
<joelteon>
you know what's really cool
<joelteon>
rust
<cuttle>
and i mean it would also be amazing to make a career out of creating things, like music or video games
<cuttle>
joelteon: yeah
<cuttle>
alexgordon: so yeah one of those things
<cuttle>
or all
<cuttle>
:p
<prophile>
joelteon: rust has many similar design choices to the ones i made for ♞
<joelteon>
really
<prophile>
yeah
<prophile>
it feels like ♞ felt when i was iting examples
<prophile>
*writing
<prophile>
in as far as a programming language can feel like something
<prophile>
i might have to start using rust
<prophile>
assuming i can find an excuse project for it
<joelteon>
yeah, it's really neat
<joelteon>
i think there's finally a decent alternative to the current state of compiled affairs
<joelteon>
if you don't care about speed, you use whatever language you want, and if you do, you use C++
<joelteon>
but linear types are clever
<prophile>
do they actually call them linear types?
<joelteon>
no
<joelteon>
they used to
<prophile>
because i read about them and immediately thought of linear types
<joelteon>
i think that was the original design idea, but there was some reason it couldn't be implemented
<cuttle>
prophile: what's the state of ♞?
<joelteon>
is there a question mark in there
<alexgordon>
♞?
<joelteon>
the rust stdlib is moving faster than
<joelteon>
uh
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<prophile>
cuttle: I haven't touched it in over a year
<prophile>
alexgordon: it was the programming language i was designing
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