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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi all
<vigs>
hi eligrey
<vigs>
whoops
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE:
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: that video
<vigs>
what's everyone up to?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: alexgordon devyn glowcoil please be here, I want to talk design
<vigs>
I'm here, slaving over JQuery, hi
<alexgordon>
hi
<purr>
alexgordon: hi!
<vigs>
no hi for me, purr?
<purr>
vigs: hi!
<vigs>
:D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
paws.js is damn-near finished. the next step, clearly, is some way to get code into the system.
* vigs
pets purr
* purr
r
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and federate two systems.
<vigs>
nice
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<cuttlebone>
hi pals
<cuttlebone>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hearts
<vigs>
hi cuttlebone
<cuttlebone>
hi vigs
<vigs>
what's up
<cuttlebone>
not much
<cuttlebone>
registering for fall semeser
<cuttlebone>
semester
<alexgordon>
cuttlebone
<vigs>
fun
<cuttlebone>
super excited to take like 2 math classes
<vigs>
ewwie (or was that not sarcasm?)
<cuttlebone>
not sarcasm
<vigs>
oh lol
<purr>
lol
<vigs>
what's your major?
<cuttlebone>
math + cs w a music minor
<vigs>
ooh that sounds cool
<vigs>
I'm just a boring old computer engineering major :P
<cuttlebone>
is it like ece
<cuttlebone>
i have a friend doing that
<cuttlebone>
a bit jealous but i can only do so many things :p
<vigs>
not sure what ece is, but it's got some EE and some CS
<cuttlebone>
ok yeah
<cuttlebone>
electrical + computer engineering
<vigs>
ah
<vigs>
yeah basically
<cuttlebone>
cool
<cuttlebone>
man i am turnt for math tho
<cuttlebone>
linear algebra was the best class
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttlebone: check your in-box
<cuttlebone>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nofing yet
<cuttlebone>
if pirus and crips
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttlebone: re-sent
<cuttlebone>
all got along
<cuttlebone>
they'd probably gun me down by the end of this song
<cuttlebone>
seem like the whole city go against me
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… prius and crips?
<cuttlebone>
every time i'm in the street i hear
<cuttlebone>
YAK YAK YAK YAK
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I just don't see that happening.
<cuttlebone>
pirus
<cuttlebone>
it's a gang
<cuttlebone>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat really
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's what he's saying?
<cuttlebone>
yeah
<cuttlebone>
crips and pirus are members of those 2 gangs
<vigs>
oh man, I was so not a fan of linear algebra
<cuttlebone>
which are like, the 2 rivals or w/e where he lives?
<cuttlebone>
vigs: :c
<cuttlebone>
vigs: it's the best math
<vigs>
I had a horrible prof, so maybe that had something to do with it
<cuttlebone>
i had a lovely prof
<cuttlebone>
so vice versa
<cuttlebone>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've never had a good math teacher.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Always THE WORST.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
several terrible ones in a row. ugh. >:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OKAYSO
<cuttlebone>
:c
<cuttlebone>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i teach u math
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttlebone: Paws.js is, like, fucking beautiful.
<vigs>
my prof was a nice woman, she really tried hard, but at the end of the day, I can follow math. And there was very little math on the board.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The code is beautiful, Paws is beautiful, I even made the --help output and README beautiful now.
<vigs>
There was a LOT of writing in English and ugh ewww
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
check 'em out if you didn't yet.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway. It's great. Very nearly done.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which means DESIGN TIIIIIIME
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
because the entire point of that exercise was having a well-tested and clean codebase to iterate on.
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'll check it out if I finish this stupid assignment any time soon
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
when I'm trying to find out of a particular design-element is nice to work with *in the language*, I don't want to spend days stymied by a horrible bug in the code that prevents me from writing it an trying it.
<cuttlebone>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nice
<cuttlebone>
no emails yet but idk
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to have a single mechanism for A) ‘modules’ of code, and B) distributing system.
<cuttlebone>
right yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
basically, `connect <module of code on the disk>` should be semantically identical to `connect <remote Paws system>`
<cuttlebone>
let's look at erlang and E
<cuttlebone>
is what I'm thinking of for that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
except in the latter case, the Unit federated with continues to iterate
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you know much about erlang?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'cuz I don't. How do they go about it?
<vigs>
can anyone who knows a thing about jquery help me for a minute? :<
<gkatsev>
don't use jquery
<gkatsev>
there, you've been helped
<gkatsev>
:P
<gkatsev>
but I can give it a shot
<vigs>
thanks gkatsev :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: what's up? I know a very, very little
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
honestly I exclusively use zepto and cheerio, which are both jquery-interface libraries for other purposes.
<gkatsev>
I've used jquery a bit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
relevant question: y u use jquery, noob
<gkatsev>
cheerio is just css selectors, though, basically, no?
<vigs>
so this assignment is for a class (basically codegolf tbh), and we need to convert ≈60 lines of JS DOM manipulation stuff into ≈16 lines, not counting newlines or lines with terminators: ;)}
<vigs>
I'm trying to add this event handler for a click, but it registers multiple clicks
<vigs>
The file with jquery is Expander.js, and the old one is OldExpander.js (which needs a different html file not in that directory btw)
<vigs>
welp brb, friend's locked out
<vigs>
hi
<purr>
vigs: hi!
<vigs>
anyone have a thought on that? :<
<vigs>
fuck it
<vigs>
I got something to work
<vigs>
I threw a call to unbind in there
<vigs>
$('.ActionBar > span').unbind().click(function(){…}); seems to have done the job. (╯°□°）╯︵ ʇdᴉɹɔsɐʌɐɾ
<vigs>
ELLIOTTCABLE: they ever let you in?
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<cuttlebone>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i just mean erlang does distribution, idk if it does federation stuff
<cuttlebone>
ELLIOTTCABLE: oh oh oh also look at Oz, it's super relevant
<cuttlebone>
like super super relevant
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs: huh?
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The module Connection provides the basic mechanism (known as tickets) for active applications to connect with each other.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The module Remote allows an active application to create a new site (local or remote operating system process) and connect with it. The site may be on the same machine or a remote machine.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The module Fault gives the basic primitives for fault detection and handling.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The module Pickle allows an application to store and retrieve arbitrary stateless data from files and URLs.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… one of these things is not like the other
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anybody alive? nobody alive.
<Willox>
I am
<Willox>
Valve seem to have ignored all my exploit reports
<Willox>
what do
<Willox>
It's not tiny exploits it's more like sending binaries to servers and executing them and then that server being able to do the same back to all clients
<Willox>
aka worm
<alexgordon>
Willox: that sounds pretty bad
<Willox>
yes
<alexgordon>
are you sure you're ...right?
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Willox>
haha yes
<Willox>
My steam profile is a list of previous exploits I found that they've fixed
<Willox>
The method that sends binaries to clients is really easy
<Willox>
That involves 2 separate exploits
<alexgordon>
three options: 1) ignore it, 2) sell to the NSA, 3) post on hacker news
<alexgordon>
:P
<Willox>
Whilst the serverside one is 3 exploits
<Willox>
the thing is no matter how I release it they'll know it was me
<Willox>
I could post on hacker news without saying how to do it
<Willox>
There's no reason for people to believe me though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“and because a variable can be assigned more than once”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<alexgordon>
Willox: how many steam games do you have?
<Willox>
242
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: clearly, all of them
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh.
<alexgordon>
;P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Willox: okay, new option: get the rest.
<alexgordon>
Willox: probably don't want to piss them off then
<Willox>
my games
<Willox>
my profile is already sort of pissing on them
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: dammit talk to me about languages
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: got to ARC convert before 10.10 comes out
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Willox: hi, do u no pws
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: AFTER THAT, FREEDOM
<Willox>
i write in paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
basically:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh. dunno. I suck at this shit.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Does the Mozart distribution model give programmers a warm, fuzzy feeling when writing distributed applications? In short, yes it does. The distribution model has been designed in tandem with many application prototypes and numerous Gedankenexperimenten. We are confident that it is basically correct.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *love* e-language's concept of selfedness vs selflessness
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
moving the difference between identity-comparison and content-comparison *out of the comparer* and *into the data being compared*, it's genius
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if you have a point class with X and Y coördinates, it's an *inherent property of that type of data* that any two points with the same coördinates are, in fact, the same point
<purr>
alexgordon: didja write a paws yet? didja? didja!?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
here's what I'm thinking for distribution:
<alexgordon>
mmm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you remember enough to know that everything in the Paws world is one big graph of homogenous data, yes?
<alexgordon>
yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“distribution” is nothing more, conceptually, than taking two previously-separate graphs, and letting them touch.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's basically only three possible ways to do that, and thus only three I need to choose from.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
one, is to merge them: two Units, once ‘federated’ (having somehow acquired access/knowledge-of/permission-for one another; irrelevant to the topic), become one Unit. All data in either one is accessible to the other, and indistinguishable from the data that was originally ‘within’ the unit whose perspective we're speaking from.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, A) amalgamation.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
second, is for such access to exist, from that perspective, but for it to be *distinguishable*. “This is data from <another unit>.” To look at that from the abstract perspective, we're basically allowing one graph to acquire links to nodes from a second graph, but coloring those links: if drawn, for instance, you'd see two separate networks of nodes,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
with dotted lines occasionally joining them.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
B), segregation.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
finally, access could be only *through a particular access-point*; that is, perhaps a particular privileged function, given to you by the ‘other guy’, that has access to his data, and can do things *for you* on that data; or, perhaps it be data instead of code: something along the lines of Node's `module.exports`, for instance.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
visualized, this would be the two networks remaining completely separate, but nuzzling up at a single, shared node therein.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
any thoughts/objections? Am I missing any other possible families of access methodologies?
<katlogic>
E2MUCHABSTRACT
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: wat
<katlogic>
such abstract
<katlogic>
wow detailed
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's a bad thing? why?
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: o_o
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
talking at a high level about prospective designs. It's the first steps; it'd be a huge mistake to start writing code immediately. o_O
<katlogic>
You know, juvenille people like me need it ELI5. Show pictures 'n stuff.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
start at a high level, and drill down to specifics.
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I see, thats what I hate about academics.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
thanks to glowcoil, I discovered ‘capabilities’ earlier
<katlogic>
I do it exactly in inverse.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: lolwat, I'm far from an academic. I know fuck-all about anything.
<purr>
lolwat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm some designer way out of his depth.
<katlogic>
Implement random shit then find proper academic terms.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: check it out, it's really neat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: sounds pretty much like me. I have no terms, I just think about things until one of the thoughts looks pretty.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then I try to implement it.
<katlogic>
tl;dr
<katlogic>
sounds like RBAC tho
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
idk RBAC
<katlogic>
nsa did it already
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
idk most of the terms of that document
<katlogic>
role based access control
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but here's how it came across to me:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
traditional ACLs, or The Linux Approach, is fingerprints.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
imagine if you used fingerprints to open your front-door.
<katlogic>
um uh
<katlogic>
i'm trying
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hard to revoke some of somebody's access without revoking all of it, basically, amongst other things. also more conceptual overhead
<katlogic>
you mean granularity problem
<katlogic>
yeah, thats what rbac is for
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
idk rbac, but yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but it's not just granularity. Capabilities seem cool because they're identityless, to me.
<katlogic>
Hardened unix systems use it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
a key is a key. You generate a key and give it out when necessary.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you give out a valet key when *you* need somebody to valet your car.
<katlogic>
Traditional unix does not since um, having flat acl (that is, uid separation) is conceptually simpler. And suffices most of the time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you know fuck-all about the valet, your necessity of having the car valeted means you give out the capability to valet it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if you need your girlfriend to bring you your car, you give your girlfriend the driving-key. But you don't give her the pink-slip key. It has nothing to do with your trust for her (what if you break up), only on your particular needs.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway, I really love the conceptual conflation of “permissions” and “address.”
<alexgordon>
thing is nowadays you have one human user (the sysadmin) and lots of computer "users"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I think I'm gonna steal that: the knowing-of-something's-existence / knowing-of-something's-locations, and your permission-to-access-that, being a single concept
<katlogic>
Bah
<katlogic>
Anyways, its all fun 'n stuff, but too much complexity.
<katlogic>
VM isolation is much simpler to reason about than RBAC.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, of course, but the purpose for me isn't security.
<katlogic>
Oh, then we're talking shared-nothing systems?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
In a programming language (unless it's for a very specific purpose, and there's already niche languages more suited to those purposes than anything I'm interested in making), *actual security* amongst those with access to the language isn't often considered an issue.
<katlogic>
Dunno how that does fit together, I can see the vague resemblance tho.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
BUT:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
encapsulation, which is a very important concept for software design, has a lot of analogues to security.
<katlogic>
Encapsulation is to keep power freaks away.
<katlogic>
For example, threads are form of encapsulation.
<katlogic>
Well, guess what?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
a low-conceptual-overhead encapsulation system, can allow programmers to be more productive, worrying less about how their users will interface with their code
<katlogic>
People hate it and will eventually try to avoid it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm a Ruby baby, very much attached to my metaprogramming and haxxxxxery
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not my point.
<katlogic>
Abstraction != encapsulation
<joelteon>
ugh monkeypatching
<joelteon>
I like my monkeys not to develop holes in the first place
<katlogic>
Highly abstracted systems an still be quite wide open.
<katlogic>
*can
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Rule Two. Make rope.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not disagreeing :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the point of encapsulation is to act as an aspect of *API design*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
JavaScript developers prefixing some members' names with `_`, and writing some functions with a capital initial letter, is a form of encapsulation, from that point of view.
<katlogic>
Oh, sure.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It doesn't mean OOOO MY PASSWORD IS IN THIS VARIABLE, I BETTER UNDERSCORE-PREFIX IT SO NOBODY WILL LOOK,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's Security.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it means I DON'T WANT TO WORRY ABOUT YOU FUCKS MESSING WITH THIS. If you do, and it breaks, I'll close your bug reports.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's Encapsulamification.
<katlogic>
Now, in JS it is possible to do hc style state hiding :)
<katlogic>
(in closures)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well yeah closures
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
of course, but it aids my point if we pretend those don't exist ;)
<katlogic>
People ocassionaly do it when it is really beneficial to hide the state. I thought thats what not-just-convention encapsulation is for.
<katlogic>
When meddling in inner state is outright dangerous.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which is an interesting point. In fact, I think the entire thing is a bit of a gradient.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's state that's hidden because you don't want to *support* or *document* it, i.e. laziness encapsulation,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but that is relatively stable, unlikely to change, not particularly dangerous to a consumer's future stability to rely on …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then there's stuff that's actually likely to change …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then there's stuff that's Magic Hax and you are almost *certainly* not fully-understanding-of, and that will break if you use it …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: so, you understood my three, yes?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
honestly, I'm leaning towards the third.
* katlogic
is not sure what the original topic was
<katlogic>
x.var = 1 vs x.set_var(1) ?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
see, you're already getting too concrete :P
* katlogic
is a camel-hater
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
x set.var 1
* ELLIOTTCABLE
is an underscore-hater
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
actually,
* ELLIOTTCABLE
is a shift-key hater
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
dashes or periods, nigguh
<katlogic>
dashes are cool in lisp, camels are cool for class name capitals
<katlogic>
theres always use for it, but traditional camelcase is outright inconsistent (why isnt first letter capital?)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
agreed.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
right!?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Paws is very easy to reason about abstractly, because it's so very simple.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
There's three elements to a Paws system, basically. A two-dimensional graph of links between data (Paws is designed to obscure all but one, homogenous, form of Information™. think lisp lists, sorta.),
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
a table of mappings from <bits of code> to <subgraphs>, to restrict concurrent-access,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and a list of pending operations (also only one type of operation.)
<katlogic>
Concurrent, as in threading?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, very simple.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
errr, how are you asking
<katlogic>
I actually attempted to do that in js, fun stuff.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's designed to be parallelizable, but there's no exposed mechanic for threading.
<katlogic>
(Proxies into separate isolates which share global state)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
VM's reactors preform operations; can be multiple parallelized reactors, or just one. All opaque, so irrelevant here.
<katlogic>
I was thinking more in multi-core scaling patterns.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
again, wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
rephrase, I'm dumb.
<katlogic>
Either you do the shared-nothing thing with messaging, which must be explicit.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
shared-everything.
<katlogic>
Yes, which is implicit and very tricky to do right.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all reactors have shared access to the single, universal, graph of relationships.
<katlogic>
You see, with concurrent execution, you get this proxy / locking problem.
<katlogic>
All your fancy abstractions might come handy if you can solve that behind the scenes, but otherwise I cant see other use.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“with parallelism, you get this one, single problem …”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
bit of an understatement :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fancy abstractions? huh?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what I'm trying to talk about here has nothing to do with concurrency.
<katlogic>
Plotting dataflow relationships as graphs.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
As far as I know, concurrency is a Solved Problem™ in Paws.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it probably isn't, actually, because I'm a dumb noob.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but whatever I've got now, seems close enough. I'm sure we'll see what the problems are, in practice, at a later date, but … can't do that until people start using it. :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“By being immutable, we know that if c's contents and d's contents are the same now, they'll be the same later. By being transparent, we know that there are no encapsulated secrets for a contents comparison to reveal. Therefore, it's safe for this object to give up its identity, and use its contents for its sameness check.”
<katlogic>
Will not work unless you do it nazi-style (ie no side effects at all).
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(Dudebro's Law)
<katlogic>
Haskell theoretically scales to infinite cores, even inifinite number of distributed machines.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well duh, it's pure
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what are you saying won't work? confused.
<katlogic>
But is kinda difficult to use it as practical language since it forces you to translate problems into highly abstract representation, too distant from how common plebs reason about algorithms.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… and with that sentence you've nailed the purpose of Paws, by the way.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm trying to build a VM you target by abstraction, not compilation.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
higher-level than most VMs, and ideally suited to concurrency-related and asynchronous-suited problems, mostly network shit and user-facing shit.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-topic a ~better~ cult
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: SyntaxError: Syntax is `s/expression/replacetext/gi`.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-topic s/.*/a ~better~ cult/
purr changed the topic of #elliottcable to: a ~better~ cult
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
buttface
<katlogic>
I'm afraid you will be caught in Prolog phenomenon. Prolog was designed for constraint solving.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Does the Mozart distribution model give programmers a warm, fuzzy feeling when writing distributed applications? In short, yes it does.”
<katlogic>
Yet, people still do it mostly in Java the hard way.
<katlogic>
Maybe I'm just projecting, but I get this feeling engineers usually lower abstract problems into lower level representation and code it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sentence didn't make sense, rephrase?
<katlogic>
Which makes sense, its easier to lower the problem domain than trying to translate it into different representation in same dagree of representation.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's why it's targeted by abstraction instead of translation.
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: "Lowering" is a term from compiler theory. You lower assignments to SSA, you lower DAG to basic blocks etc.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes, because those are discrete steps.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
From the Paws machine on upwards, all abstractions are perfectly granular. You add one abstraction at a time, as with libraries and functions, instead of wholesale, as with programming languages.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I can't work in assembler but just get *one* useful and relevant part of C++.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *can* work at ‘Core-level’ in Paws, but get *one* useful and relevant abstraction from a higher-level abstraction.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
people should be writing libraries and frameworks, not languages.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
shit like Luna existing is just disappointing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-learn Does the Mozart distribution model give programmers a warm, fuzzy feeling when writing distributed applications? = In short, yes it does.
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Learned `Does the Mozart distribution model give programmers a warm, fuzzy feeling when writing distributed applications?`.
<katlogic>
Luna is just failed Lua clone, though otherwise I'm quite fond of "simple languages".
<katlogic>
And orthogonal designs in general.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
‘orthogonal designs?’
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
design at right angles? :P
<katlogic>
Simple language offerding few but powerful tools.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well, clearly, so am I :P
<katlogic>
Simple language, as in simple implementation and specification.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(Haven't you heard? Flat's out. The trend of 2015 is right angles. PUT YOUR TEXT SIDEWAYS!)
<katlogic>
Scheme and Lua generally fit that category.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so does Paws.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
although alexgordon refuses to believe that.
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I have no clue about paws since intro is tldr
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yah
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: believe what?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I know. You're new. But we seem to be talking about it, unless I'm missing your point.
<katlogic>
tldr intro hints complex, though it might not be necessarily true
<katlogic>
you might be just terrible writer
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: that Paws is eminently simple.
<alexgordon>
oh
<alexgordon>
yeah it's not
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: *what* intro are you talking about? the spec?
<katlogic>
yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: it's the first specification I've ever written, of course it's horrible.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and it's *not* an intro, so of course it's tl;dr.
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: It reads like ecmascript spec. ES is justifiable, since JS is batshit crazy scheme/self/smalltalk sorry child designed in 10 days.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's because I literally copied the ES spec.
<katlogic>
ES spec is not there to introduce new users into JS
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
as in, I don't know how to write a specification, so I opened the DOM and ES5 specifications in tabs, and copied their formatting and style-of-writing for anything I didn't know what to do for.
<katlogic>
Everyone *knows* JS.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… what specification *is* there that is supposed to introduce users to something?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the idea of a specification as an introduction is batshit o_O
<katlogic>
ES spec is there to prevent incompatibilities and corner cases, simply because JS has so many.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… **any** specification is there to prevent incompatibilities and corner cases.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's literally what a specification is, by definition
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
clearly talking at cross-purposes here.
<alexgordon>
katlogic: the paws spec is to introduce it to normal people like me so that we can explain it to other normal people
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Let me rephrase. Would you recommend reading ES spec to someone who wants to learn JS?
<katlogic>
No.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes, that's the point
<katlogic>
I can recommend that for Lua or Scheme.
<alexgordon>
katlogic: mainly because elliott has a... signature... programming style, so a reference implementation is out
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: what self-respecting person would suggest *any* newbie to *read a fucking specification* to learn something?
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Spec quality reflects the inherent quality of language, its simple as that. Same could said about C++.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I tell somebody to read _why's guide to Ruby, not parse.y ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I really don't see how that could possibly be the case.
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Huge specs mean huge language in my book.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Case-in-point: I know fuckall about writing specifications. I *know* my spec is going to be imprecise and confusing in places. I also believe my language's design is quite beautiful; and that absolutely will not come across in a damned specification.
<katlogic>
Small languages have sufficiently small specs to be newb friendly.
<katlogic>
Easy as that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not at all.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's only true if the language introduces *nothing new*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
i.e. all concepts in it are common, already known to the person reading them.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Of *course* in that case it will be compact: Most of the knowledge is already in the reader's head.
<katlogic>
As you said, spec must be complete. It cannot say "closures work just as in scheme", it has to repeat it exactly (even if it works same as in scheme).
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If the specification is written for people outside the comfort-zone of that language (how easy would Lua be to understand, for somebody from an alternate dimension who's never done any imperative or object-oriented programming?), it's not going to small and comprehensible at the same time.
<alexgordon>
sort of related: http://rustbyexample.com is by far the best way to teach a language I've seen
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Funny you say that. I used to work for small czech game studio.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes yes yes, in general, I agree with you.
<katlogic>
There are a lot of people who know *only* C++ and Lua.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Like, I am of completely the same general mindset as you: Scheme is a *huge* influence for me, specifically *because* the specification is so beautiful, and the language is composed of such simple, easily-understandable constructs.
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Anyways, its not that bad the spec is huge. Fine, paws might be more complex than you're willing to admit. In that case, make a good newb intro.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
But there's one point I cannot agree with, and that is that the two of those are in *any way linked*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Again, I point at my own work.
<katlogic>
One does not need to know all the dark corners to use a language. Ie C++
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My VM is both small and composed of simple, easily-understandable constructs;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but my spec is horrible and obtuse.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and those two have *nothing to do* with one-another.
<katlogic>
:(
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Writing a good specification, and designing a good language, are completely orthogonal.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(laymen's dictionary definition, not how you were using it)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(sorry)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(I do that a lot. I don't know a lot of computer-science terms, no formal education.)
<katlogic>
Its funny because people formally educated in PL theory tend to design too-clever-for-their-own-good things which tend to remain niche.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's so goddamn sad. >:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we talk *a lot* about that, in here. If only because I, personally, am too stupid to understand most of the more formal/technical discussions.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
To me, it's all a matter of branding and marketing and U/X.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
People trying too hard to be clever, or focusing too much on *their perception* of the problem, forget about the things that really matter.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Well, depending on how you define ‘really matter.’ If all you want is to satisfy that urge within yourself to formalize a yet-simpler solution to some particular aspect of concurrency … that's awesome. People happy is cool.
<katlogic>
Indeed. Simplicity trumps all.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
But to me, something doesn't really matter until it makes a lot of people happier than they previously were.
<katlogic>
(As in, even if JS semantics are horrible and possibly complex, in general, it is easy to use language)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So. Yeah. Overall U/X trumps all other considerations; most importantly in this discussion, it trumps U/X in any particular instance.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'll be back in a few, going to meet a friend and see the place.
<katlogic>
Depends what kind U/X.
<katlogic>
U/X is simply too subjective.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I disagree entirely.
<katlogic>
Your user experience, or user experience of sufficiently large sample?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
There's an entire field where people do nothing all day but discuss and iterate on “UX.” It's called being a designer.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Programmers are entirely too busy trying to prove that something's nice by *their definition*, to actually go make nice things. /=
<katlogic>
Yes. We do that stuff where hundreds of people make feedback.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway. I'm off.
* katlogic
too
<alexgordon>
where's glowcoil when you need him
* alexgordon
just had a good idea for a type safe date library
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<joelteon>
do tell
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, all
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: well, you have an elliott :D
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ok, well most date libraries suck
<alexgordon>
python's particularly
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's not date libraries that suck, by the way. It's *dates*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Our time-keeping system is basically fucking non-deterministic. The only *useful* answer to “what time is it?” is “I can't know.”
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah but that's not very pragmatic :P
<alexgordon>
they suck because they try to store absolute dates using some kind of "DateTime". I don't believe there is ever an occasion that one needs a "DateTime" representation
<alexgordon>
usually you want a timestamp, number of seconds since Jan 1st 1970 00:00:00 UTC (no timezones and no leap seconds)
<alexgordon>
or you want a year-month-day
<alexgordon>
or you want an hour-minute-second
<alexgordon>
or some other partial representation (like a month)
<alexgordon>
but you _never_ want year-month-day-hour-minute-second
<alexgordon>
now that I think about it, a Time is just the number of seconds since the start of the day
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“It gets worse, though, when you have to deal with a hardware clock that was designed by a hardware engineer who not only did not understand time, but also failed to devise a way to reliably extract it from the circuit he designed.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“ I've heard that the first time a DST bill was proposed (in the UK), people laughed at the notion. After doing any date related code, I've come to the opinion that they didn't laugh hard enough, and that physical violence wouldn't have been out of line to make sure no-one else even considered it.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: be glad that you haven't gotten around to worrying about dates, yet.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's a 500-page textbook on programming date calculations.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The top result when I search for my own name on Wikipedia? “Abandoned_Love”
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: LOL
<purr>
LOL
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah well that's what I was saying about YMDHMS representations being fundamentally flawed
<alexgordon>
time should only ever be represented as a number of seconds, because hour-minute representations are not unique and vary geographically with the time zone
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<alexgordon>
gq!
<gq>
alexgordon!
<alexgordon>
gq: we're talking about dating
<gq>
oh shit
<gq>
here, i'll throw my hat in the ring:
<gq>
so lately i've been looking about for a girlfriend/fwb lady sort of person
<alexgordon>
gq: and by dating I mean the representation of date-times by computers
<alexgordon>
xD
<gq>
well that's fucking boring
<gq>
mine is better
<alexgordon>
ok
<gq>
subject change, new one, move down
<alexgordon>
CONCUR
<gq>
anyway so far i've got like
<gq>
five responses to my initial posting on the site
<gq>
like two of whom have responded after i respond
<alexgordon>
can you get one for me too?
<gq>
(and then never respond again)
<alexgordon>
thanks
<gq>
one who actually moved to texting me
<gq>
but then after i sent her a picture of myself
<gq>
she stopped texting.
<gq>
not sure if that's worse or better than the blind date i went on with the guy at the park
<gq>
who when i tried to flirtily ask if i was as cute as the pix i'd emailed him of me were...
<gq>
well, he changed the subject. awkwardly.
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<gq>
anyway alexgordon maybe i'll have better luck if i try throwing you in as a bonus prize
<gq>
LADIES! YOU CAN HAVE ME....AND ALEX...FOR THE LOW LOW PRICE OF....IDK FIVE CENTS OR SOMETHING
<alexgordon>
xD
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i amused everyone at the restaurant on mother's day by talking about your dental woes
<alexgordon>
gq: people are too stuffy about sex, it's a pity
<gq>
"he said he had 25 cavities! then he said he thought he had great oral hygiene, but had flossed like twice ever! EH? EH? MY EX, AUNTS, UNCLES, AND OTHER ASSORTED RELATIVES!"
<gq>
alexgordon: there's a joke somewhere in there about 'stuffy' and 'sex' in the same sentence
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
omfg gq
<gq>
omfg ELLIOTTCABLE
<katlogic>
Cant figure the gender of gq
<katlogic>
So many confusing pronouns
<gq>
it's a mystery
<alexgordon>
katlogic: I've been here for years and I'm still confused
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: D:
<alexgordon>
gq: I mean, I know women like sex just as much as men (if not more!) I can never understand why casual sex is so much fucking work to set up
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Transphobic cis asshole!
* alexgordon
is literally patriarchy
<gq>
alexgordon: i really don't know
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, plenty of good reasons.
<gq>
alexgordon: i tried to make my post be very clear about, LADIES, I WANT TO SEX YOU UP...and we can be friends too if you want
<gq>
her site is amusing but so much controversial toilet-bowl-deep clickbait
<katlogic>
Yeah, its kinda hacknayed writing, but still lovely for its time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I like that second article. Which probably makes me a horrible person.
* ELLIOTTCABLE
shakes himself
<gq>
it's okay we already knew you were a horrible person
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ANYWAY. alexgordon!
<alexgordon>
katlogic: that much was obvious when 50 shades became a hit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-kick gq no u
<yorick>
women self-report lower happiness after having children
<yorick>
and they compared against couples who were involuntarily childless :|
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
4:20 PM <_W_> you personally aren't banned, but you manner of connecting (irccloud) is
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
4:20 PM <_W_> if you connect directly, you should be able to join
<yorick>
why u ban irccloud?
<alexgordon>
gq: so tell me about elliott's teeth
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: lol where did you get banned from?
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I didn't, but ##programming
<gq>
alexgordon: 25 cavities, mostly between teeth, from not flossing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
where darkf originated.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hence my surprise.
<gq>
oh god darkf
<alexgordon>
gq: woah
* alexgordon
still has all his teeth
<alexgordon>
+ 3 extra ones that I don't want
<joelteon>
i have all mine too (._. )
<joelteon>
oh i got those out
<gq>
alexgordon: meh, i had a similiar number after doing 0 dental hygiene & determined soda drinking for a year, it's really not that big of a pain to fix...unless you continue being an ass to your teeth, like i did
<joelteon>
the drugs were good
<gq>
alexgordon: now i'm scheduled to get two out :( oh well
<alexgordon>
when I was younger I had a root canal without anaesthetic, several times
<gq>
alexgordon: d had one with anesthetic that was having no effect on him, b/c he hates needles & wanted no more pokies
<yorick>
katlogic: also agh
<gq>
so far i have avoided root canals. feels rather odd that i'll be getting my first non-wisdom-teeth extraction before my first root canal
<alexgordon>
gq: yah for some reason they make dental needles to be really fucking scary
<alexgordon>
huge motherfuckers
<alexgordon>
never understood why
<gq>
alexgordon: dentists who don't put topical anesthetic on gums before injecting one are a bogeyman of mine
<joelteon>
i once had a tooth drilled out without the benefit of anaesthetic
<joelteon>
holy shit that was painful
<gq>
joelteon: augh
<yorick>
katlogic: I almost lost my right eye yesterday but I managed to dodge the 350 degree fat flying towards me
<joelteon>
they kept hitting the nerve
<gq>
joelteon: yeah i had the anesthetic wear off 1/3 of the way into one...i ended up crying and shaking while they assured me 'we'll be done soon' to avoid giving me more. it was not over soon.
<joelteon>
just thinking back to that makes me cringe
<alexgordon>
fuck it I'm never going to the dentist again
<joelteon>
other than that, my dental visits have been nothing but smooth sailing
<joelteon>
getting the braces on and off sucked
<joelteon>
getting the wisdom teeth extracted was kinda cool
<joelteon>
definitely not as terrible as everyone said it would be
<gq>
putting the braces on was not too bad of a thing, though my teeth ached after a bit and also when putting the retainer on as they shifted
<joelteon>
wasn't really bad at all, just weird and trippy
<alexgordon>
can we go back to talking about casual sex? I regret asking about teeth
<gq>
getting them off was a pain as the glue for the brackets had to be literally scraped off my teeth
<gq>
gyuh.
<joelteon>
yep
<gq>
lol alexgordon~
<purr>
lol
<gq>
what about sex AND teeth?
<joelteon>
they used some kind of tool to sand off the glue
<gq>
BITES AND HICKEYS FOR EVERYBODY
<joelteon>
it didn't really hurt, but it was very uncomfortable
<gq>
exactly
<joelteon>
it makes your whole skull rattle
<gq>
i kept thinking throughout the entire procedure...AT LEAST IT DOESN'T HURT AT LEAST IT DOESN'T HURT *criiiiiinge*
<gq>
how does a /dental drill/ rattle one's skull less than that tool? nooneknows.jpg
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: lol
<alexgordon>
gq: man, sex and teeth do not go to gether
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
disagree
<katlogic>
gq: If you're really curious, in here (soviet motherfucking russia), the consensus amongst rapist seem to be to kick most of victim's teeth out, before proceeding to skullfuck. Makes sense to not get dick chopped off.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
disagree
<gq>
alexgordon: well not like...teeth and genitals
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
disagree
<joelteon>
guys would you say sex is enjoyable or not
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
god katlogic really *is* the new whitequark
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you have a right to be wrong
<gq>
but like...teeth on shoulders while getting fucked from behind
<gq>
that's pretty good
<alexgordon>
katlogic: you're russian too?
<gq>
katlogic: more reasons to never move to russia
<joelteon>
no answers, huh?
<gq>
along with the 'being fucking gay as shit'
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
teeth and genitals isn't *necessarily* bad. I'm just sayin'.
<katlogic>
Not actually russian, but the bydlo culture is prevalent here.
<gq>
joelteon: sorry, got distracted by teeth-kicking rapists
<joelteon>
ok
<gq>
joelteon: so uh....yes...sex is enjoyable....when no rapists are involved
<alexgordon>
(erm, too as in as well as whitequark. I'm a subject of her majesty)
<joelteon>
ok
<joelteon>
well i'll schedule a sex for some point in my future
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i agree, but this room is full of dudes and most dudes are overwhelmingly tchy about dicks & teeth
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: apparently the guy writing the blog in the second link disagrees with you.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
teeth and *balls* maybe
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
dicks are pretty resilient.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: about teeth kicking rapists? also, the second link is a lady
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<joelteon>
eat a dick
<gq>
from the amount of screeching i get when my teeth so much as touch a dick during a blowjob, you'd never know it
<joelteon>
they're full of protein
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
how do you know? I looked around for a while. no gender references on the site, anywhere.
<katlogic>
What ELLIOTTCABLE said, still not pleasent I guess.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: longtime reader
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well, the primary source of my blow jobs in the recent past has a tiny mouth. Teeth are kinda a given.
<gq>
huh. someone who understands
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-what
<purr>
<prophile> I think alexgordon wants to harvest your organs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
brb, making him respond with another one.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
shit, can't be arced. to ssh in.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
arsed*
<joelteon>
i'd like to harvest your oregons
<gq>
my brain is in stupid mode so my next response to ELLIOTTCABLE wants to be wow you're looking like a more possible sex partner all the time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-what
<purr>
<Nuck> I love the feeling of blood on my dick
<gq>
which, no, that's just sleep deprivation talking
<gq>
asidfya;sidyf fucking nuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: you know you'd hit this
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's no shame in it. Good times to be had by all.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon can vouch for such.
<alexgordon>
oh god the images
<gq>
lel
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the question is whether i bang you and d bangs you when we come to visit or we just bang each other in your bathtub
<alexgordon>
gq, ELLIOTTCABLE -> ##pawsorgy
<alexgordon>
get a room
<joelteon>
whenever someone says "bang" it just sounds like you're hitting them with a blunt object
<gq>
joelteon: maybe i am
<gq>
idk
<joelteon>
gross
<gq>
are tits considered 'blunt'
<joelteon>
are they sharp?
<katlogic>
Pointy-nipples cuts
<gq>
depends how cold it is
<joelteon>
ok
<joelteon>
then maybe
<gq>
alexgordon: we have a room, this room, why get another room
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Hilariously telling: There's a channel named ##pawsorgy on Freenode. The only member is ELLIOTTCABLE, and he is opped.
<gq>
pff
<alexgordon>
gq: fine
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
actually, for the first time in a very long time, I'm not getting enough sex right now.
<gq>
alexgordon: also you were the one who was like NOOOO TALK ABOUT SEX AGAIN
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or, I suppose, in some ways I'm getting too much; but I'm feeling rather sexually unfulfilled.
<alexgordon>
gq: nah it was NOOOO STFU ABOUT TEETH
<gq>
alexgordon: be more specific next time :3 'talk about sex, but NONE INVOLVING ELLIOTTCABLE'
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Give me advice, Internet nerds.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<katlogic>
Vodka and teens with daddy issues?
<gq>
pfff lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: see, that's never worked for me.
<gq>
katlogic is a good addition to this chatroom
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
There've been a **lot** of that.
<alexgordon>
gq: have you ever considered joining the jesus christ church of latter day saints?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and no sex.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just a lot of puke on a lot of expensive possessions.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
god, this one time,
<gq>
alexgordon: no, i was in the southern baptist church, which is much the same
<gq>
alexgordon: i had enough of that ride thanks
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My *actual* Prius was in the shop, and I had a rental Prius (go figure); after a party, girl's climbing into my car, planning to stay over
<CaptainEC>
Apparently I have a photo-face. It's horrid.
<alexgordon>
katlogic: but yeah I've argued with ELLIOTTCABLE about this before, he firmly believes that american women are the most attractive in the world and non-white people are just No
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, no
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
zero shits about American women.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but I just can't find myself attracted to black, indian, or asian girls.
<gq>
you would, you aryan motherfucker
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
black *guys,* sure. Latinas, occasionally, but not often.
<alexgordon>
but you didn't like latin american chicks either, which I just can't understand
<gq>
alexgordon: don't try to find the logic, for there is none.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no, I don't like the *famous* ones. Not a fan of unnecessarily big boobs, or weirdly-shaped asses.
<katlogic>
Well, we're generalizing here, but the US genome pool seemed a bit damaged. Though I've seen only NY, dunno how representative that actually is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
who expects logic in ones' tastes and attractions? That's just fallacious.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
LOL
<purr>
LOL
<alexgordon>
aye
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
thanks for backin' me up, purr
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
new york, god no
<gq>
am i getting the correct impression that you consider ladies of color to have inherently unnecessarily big boobs/weirdly shaped butts?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
most of the attractive girls are either southern, western, or west-coast.
<gq>
fuck you, give me new york
<gq>
give it to meeeeee
* gq
climbs into the big apple & hides
<gq>
-nest
<purr>
gq: * gq climbs into ELLIOTTCABLE's hair and makes a nest
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: no, talking about the popular image of a “hot latina”
<gq>
ah
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ok I agree with that
<alexgordon>
I don't particularly like big tits and ass either
<gq>
*shrug* i guess
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<katlogic>
gq: Maybe its just the exotic factor, but black ladies seemed tad bit more attractive overall.
<gq>
i don't think the stereotypical popular image of the 'hot white girl' is very attractive
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
worse, when they've got creeeeeeepy fuckin' pumped-up lips, or huuuuuge fake eyelashes, or … just lots of ugh. In any racial background.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: hm, depends on which stereotype.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
White Girl Unicorn? Totally. ‘Model?’ Not so much.
<gq>
katlogic: i like really dark skinned black women, particularly
<gq>
katlogic: then i worry that i'm fetishizing people :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what's wrong with fetishizing people, from a distance? That's what *all* attraction is. It's natural.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It's only if you continue to fetishize them once you become connected that it's unkind.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“That person is hot.” Boom, fetishized.
<gq>
well i mean there's, i find that particular trait in people attractive
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
to *completely* derail the conversation,
<gq>
and then there's the point where it becomes sort of unanchored and creepy
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I just accidentally had the meaning of “degloving” exposed to me.
<katlogic>
gq: Nah, I think its kinda natural. In my place, people are crazy after other races/ethos (even of same color) since it is rather uncommon, allele distribution far more uniform and all.
<katlogic>
Possibly with exclusion of gypsies though its hard to tell.
<katlogic>
Those still make excellent prostitutes.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
okay now I want to get married so I can have a cool-ass wedding band.
<gq>
well, i mean, i had a friend who got in a car accident & went through the windshield because he'd gone to a russian owned car place & they'd replaced his seat belts with belts of a lower grade material
<katlogic>
typical :)
<gq>
heh
<gq>
they tend to sort of take over businesses/neighborhoods and then you get people like my mother-in-law who complain that they went to a neighborhood grocery & everyone except her spoke russian and she was glared at/whispered about
<gq>
until i find myself & everyone else in town being put into a rez by russians i'm not really going to complain :P it's better than what my ancestors did to the natives when we made our way over here ;P
<alexgordon>
wait, who specifically makes "low quality seatbelts"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
16 *million* pound aluminum press.
<gq>
alexgordon: not so much lower quality seat belts but like...material that was shitty quality that resembled a seat belt enough to get away with it
<alexgordon>
so somewhere in the world there's a company who makes these things?
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Most likely second hand
<alexgordon>
DeathBelts LTD
<gq>
apparently
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: hm?
<gq>
alexgordon: to be fair, he went through the windshield after being literally hit by a city bus
<katlogic>
Its not malintent, its mostly about being cheapskates and disregard for safety of everyone around.
<gq>
alexgordon: it's possible the seat belt would have held up under lesser stress ;)
<gq>
katlogic: ^^
<gq>
it's hard to hold a grudge because most of the car places in town, russian owned or not, are pretty dodgy, heh
<gq>
that was just a new & interesting flavor of thing going wrong x)
<katlogic>
God, am I boing apolegetic? This is the sort of attitude why eastern europe is such a shitty place at times.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Hobbyists and dilettantes are the engines of open source software and they do not have the financial resources available to explore or fix many of the problems a distributed system will have.”
<katlogic>
Sounds about right
<katlogic>
To put it another way: github is this tumblr of proficient book authors.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: wat
<katlogic>
(In line with that, things like Linux would be this cool amateur book of stories, say, One Thousand and One Nights)
<katlogic>
Guess similiar parallels could be drawn with music too, though there are different powerful forces at play (like ingrained scales, pop music memes etc)
gq has quit []
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
katlogic: still confused. Is this an analogy?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
github is full of authors? don't understand.
<katlogic>
Yes, it is an analogy. github is for good code just like tumblr is for good writing.
<katlogic>
You know still the same elitist monkey argument.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
”Ensure your design works if scale changes by 10X or 20X (but the right solution for X often not optimal for 100X)”