<DocScrutinizer05>
ceene: how much was an altium license?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I recall I been there before, trying to find any sales price info on altium site or in web at large, and it was terribly difficult back when
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: funny, some Joerg answering there. It's not me
<wpwrak>
ah, and there are also packages ... full set, just schematic capture, ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
>> Unless you're pretty much a full time PCB layout guy, leave it well alone. It's far too complicated for the casual user, every time you need to use it you've forgotten how. I suppose they have to justify the price with 'added value', but to me that's 'added obfuscation'. Altium benefit partly from the big company thing of, "it must be good because it costs a lot". <<
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
>> it would nag me literally about every 20 seconds before locking me out if my internet connection went down whilst I was working with it. If you do buy an Altium licence, I would point out that you would have an easier installation experience if you run one of the widely available pirated DVD images even though you have a licence to run the official version.<<
<wpwrak>
alas, not too uncommon
<wpwrak>
the license server issue seems to depend on a number of factors. including which licensing model you choose. and then there seems to be some way to node-lock an installation.
<DocScrutinizer05>
>> Altium has some advanced features that Kicad doesn't, but sometimes that isn't an advantage, like when I inherit a file with some weird setting turned on, and can't understand why it is behaving weirdly. The configurable settings in Altium seem about as complicated as the Windows Registry of a malware infested PC, i.e. pretty darn confusing. <<
<ceene>
altium has special pricing for students and universities
<ceene>
Students
<ceene>
Accelerate your path to a career with a 12-month, non-commercial Altium Designer Student License for only USD: $119.40.
<wpwrak>
btw, i just found out how to drag a component without breaking traces in kicad: it's one of the things that are not available in the opengl canvas yet. so you have to switch to legacy, drag the component (usually creating problems, since there's no DRC on that operation), switch back to opengl, then shake the traces into place with the push router. actually not too bad. i think that will save me quite a lot of time :)
<ceene>
Professors
<ceene>
Universities shape the engineers of the future. Take advantage of Altium academic pricing with a 12-month, non-commercial Altium Designer License for only USD: $480.00.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, maybe I get a Professor h.c ?
<ceene>
i think it's wortwhile asking them
* wpwrak
gets a schoolgirl's uniform for DocScrutinizer05
<DocScrutinizer05>
I I could immatriculate at university
<ceene>
they probably only require you posses a @university.org email
<DocScrutinizer05>
pink please, wpwrak
<ceene>
i've gotten some things that way
<DocScrutinizer05>
when cheating, it's irrelevant how much we cheat
<ceene>
well, i hope to be a phd student next course
<wpwrak>
terms and conditions probably also strictly forbid commercial use of an educational version
<ceene>
so i'd be officially a student
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, they do
<ceene>
we can always go full pirate route
<wpwrak>
full sails ahead ! :)
<ceene>
there's a lot of grey areas in there
<atk>
At this rate it would be faster to write a better replacement for this "altium designer"
<ceene>
is it inmoral to use a software that you can't pay for? does it cause harm to anyone?
<atk>
large corporations get harmed
<ceene>
in which way?
<ceene>
is it that much different from borrowing a book from the library?
<ceene>
or downloading a film that isn't distributed in your country?
<atk>
they get bruised
<wpwrak>
ceene: yes, because you're reaffirming their dominance, instead of trying to break it
<ceene>
dunno
<ceene>
oh, then that causes harm to the rest of the universe, not the company itself
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, shove routing, not push routing
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe we should actually have more confidence in our own and kicads capabilities to handle troubles
<ceene>
kicad looks quite good, to be honest
<ceene>
i see it as easier than eagle, and probably more powerful
<DocScrutinizer05>
definitely
<DocScrutinizer05>
eagle is a pita
<ceene>
problem is migrating all eagle data to kicad
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm
<DocScrutinizer05>
can't be _that_ hard
<ceene>
well, it can be done manually
<ceene>
it's not hard but time consuming
<ceene>
but not hard in itself
<DocScrutinizer05>
worst case yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably you could semi-automate a lot of things, and just fix the few complex stuff later manually
<ceene>
i don't know if it's worth it, though
<ceene>
imagine you lose one tiny resistor or whatever
<ceene>
and you don't realize it
<DocScrutinizer05>
plus we first just need schematics
<wpwrak>
galling as it may sounds, perhaps manually is the best way. automatic conversions tend - at best - to give you something that almost works, but not quite. and having lots of tiny almost invisible problems can be very troublesome
<ceene>
yes, that's what i mean
<ceene>
if you miss a stupid component it can be enough for the pcb to be useless
<DocScrutinizer05>
how could we possibly miss a resistor without EDC yelling alarm?
<wpwrak>
one way to sanity-check would be to recreate the existing schematics and compare netlists
<ceene>
who knows?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and then there's still diff(1) of netlists
<ceene>
i mean, if you gotta keep writing software that compares binary files, or netlists which don't have the same name, etc, etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
hah, you beat me to it
<ceene>
maybe it's faster and less error prone to redo the schematics by hand
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not less errorrpone than just reviewing and fixing imported schematics
<wpwrak>
alas, we then didn't get the components that had been promised to us. so the whole thing died :-(
<wpwrak>
one killer for "import" is that you tend to fall of the grid. the kicad schematics editor likes its grid very much.
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
* DocScrutinizer05
feels like headache approaching again
<wpwrak>
ceene: e.g., your converted altium schems are basically useless. there are many major omissions that may or may not be in the original (depending on whether it was actually completed), one can't connect to dangling signals, and also a lot of the symbols look weird
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I should note that Nik turned away our inquiry
<ceene>
if altium is not an option
<ceene>
then...
<wpwrak>
better put, he confirmed that he won't be available to do the layout
<ceene>
all the way to kicad then?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think this is what we will agree upon in 3 days ;-) After lots of discussions of pros&cons
<ceene>
i don't know if ahycka will want to do route with kicad, though
<ceene>
just so you know
<ceene>
i'll push her to do it
* wpwrak
likes kicad. i even added a few improvements myself :) (though that was long ago ... it got a bit too c++ for me since)
<ceene>
but we're severely lacking free time
<ceene>
we're doing lots of extra hours :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
we should push our layouters since that will sonner or later fire back in delays and sub-par results
<wpwrak>
ceene: please point out the great learning opportunity and the liberating experience ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sooner*
<wpwrak>
should or shouldn't ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we need a layouter who can sort of warrant that stuff gets done
<DocScrutinizer05>
shouldn't of course, sorry
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder if we could find any commercial layout service for this project
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I doubt if we could, that this service would use kicad then
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's sort of deadend either way
<wpwrak>
on the upside, we may be able to recruit help from the community
<ceene>
there's probably more people interested on kicad than anything else
<ceene>
it seems more or less amicable to version control, which is a plus for collaborating
<wpwrak>
yes, they may not put it on their cv, but ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
why not put on CV?
<ceene>
were i to route a full smartphone i would for sure put in on CV
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think it is a lighthouse on CV
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
what we couldn't put *anywhere* is "the pirate route"
<DocScrutinizer05>
so - a nogo
<bencoh>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean, this is an official company that can get sued outa the water, if doing anything nasty
<ceene>
yep, it's not the same as a guy on his pajamas
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
please keep discussing this topic, we need to come to a conclusion during next 2 days or somesuch. However I need to accomplish some RL / big-bluebox tasks. IOW afk, bbl
<ceene>
i don't know if there's much else to discuss
<DocScrutinizer05>
community involvement - how, whom, how to pitch it.. etc
<ceene>
1.- altium doesn't seem feasible because: a) can't get a legal license and b) isn't able to export in a good enough format
<ceene>
2.- eagle doesn't seem feasible because a) it's a piece of shit
<DocScrutinizer05>
we *can* get a legal license
<DocScrutinizer05>
the question is: do we _want_ to
<ceene>
it's a hell of a lot of money
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<bencoh>
pay 3k~9k for altium? not sure you do
<bencoh>
pretty sure you dont, actually
<ceene>
and basically forbids anyone from tinkering with the design
<ceene>
as nobody else is gonna buy a legal license
<ceene>
so...
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's a point
<ceene>
i mean, a third person could use a pirate version or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you can't tinker with eagle either
<bencoh>
(although it's a nice piece of software)
<ceene>
and i don't think that would be too bad
<ceene>
but... it's still a bit risky
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<ceene>
and won't get much community support either
<DocScrutinizer05>
afk
<bencoh>
I wouldn't know about "community support" for routing anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
please keep the notions and reasoning coming, *I* am not the expert here
<bencoh>
it's not exactly like software
<ceene>
so, even if i think altium is the best piece of software, it may not be the best solution
<bencoh>
software can break, we dont really care, nothing's set in stone in the end
<ceene>
yeah, it's very difficult to cooperate on routing a pcb
<ceene>
but
<ceene>
if someone starts routing
<ceene>
and dies or whatever
<ceene>
someone else should be able to take over
<bencoh>
routing usually ends up with one person doing the work and another one checking/re-doing it
<ceene>
that's what we do here...
<ceene>
ahycka routes everything and i check it all
<ceene>
or at least as much as i can
<bencoh>
ahycka?
<bencoh>
"here"?
<ceene>
ahycka is both my gf and my colleague "here" at work
<bencoh>
ah okay :)
<ceene>
and as of today, we also share an office, because the electric installation on hers caught fire last afternoon :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
ceene: a weird idea: your company as subcontractor of Neo900 UG?
<ceene>
uhm
<enyc>
ceene: oh dear? whyso caught fire?
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL, electric fire
<ceene>
couldn't really tell you
<wpwrak>
my layout process consists usually of staring at the horrible mess for a while, gradually convincing myself it can't be done. then finding little cues that there might be a chance ... and then one very long night and it's there :)
<ceene>
too many PCs connected to the same outlet
<bencoh>
LOL
<enyc>
ceene: in UK they are all nicely fused so can't do that screwup unless dodgy adapters plugged in
<ceene>
DocScrutinizer05: i don't know if our company would agree to it... i mean, it's a pretty small project for a company that has to do its own things
<ceene>
and we're very small
<ceene>
our only router is ahycka, in fact
<ceene>
well, we got a new guy who can't route a fucking max232
<ceene>
so that guy is not an option for anything
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe just ask?
<bencoh>
he'll have to learn :p
<ceene>
bencoh: that'd be great... but he insists that his way is the *only* way
<wpwrak>
ceene: does he share a cubicle with dilbert ?
<ceene>
DocScrutinizer05: if our company would like to do it, it'd have to be done when ahycka is idle without any other project
<ceene>
so... i don't really see it possible
<ceene>
wpwrak: lol, right now he sits in a small office on which there are 6 other people working
<ceene>
this company is gonna implode some day
<wpwrak>
no surprise he can't get anythng done :)
<ceene>
we've gone from 4 employees to 9 in three months or so
<ceene>
that's an increase of almost 100%
<wpwrak>
(idle without other project) in other words, ahycka may have more time in her spare time :)
<ceene>
and they don't even have the physical space to put people onto
<wpwrak>
still reasonably small
<ceene>
she's right now routing a board for a debris space radar
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds fun
<ceene>
the final board is gonna be pretty cool
<ceene>
an fpga with ethernet over fiber
<ceene>
inside the fpga i'll implement a microblaze processor and will run linux on that
<edwin>
http://hackaday.com/2016/07/05/the-future-of-eagle-cad/ " Autodesk is also “Definitely going to take a close look at routing.” Whether this means push and shove routing, dragging traces around, or anything else the newest version of KiCad does exceptionally well is up in the air, but it must be noted Eagle is now Autodesk’s premier EDA suite"
<edwin>
not sure if autodesk will improve eagle in time though (or if it'll make it worse by moving it to the cloud)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: many thanks, very useful
<DocScrutinizer05>
and snapeda.com is actually worth keeping on our radar
<cc___>
DocScrutinizer05: actually I didn't want that much details, I was just wondering how the project was progressing relatively to the timeline on the main page :)