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<wpwrak>
as i said, blender is a mystery to me. the gui seems weird. and full of things i don't need.
<kristianpaul>
gui is changing
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<kristianpaul>
but is not weird, is just all screwup :)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: ok, here
<wolfspraul>
I shall repeat
<wolfspraul>
referring to your openscad, cadmium, cgal comparison
<wolfspraul>
I was wondering where in the toolchain/process you see openscal (for example) used
<wolfspraul>
is it just to make animations of the case, for advertisement or educational purposes?
<wolfspraul>
like an animated (dis)assembly guide...
<wolfspraul>
if so, even if Blender (for example) is not 'scripted', so what? can blender be used to describe case parts?
<wolfspraul>
if it's just about animations anyway, blender may not be so off-topic then
<wpwrak>
i didn't look at animations. just "static" 3D models.
<wolfspraul>
main question: what are the openscad files used for?
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure openscad can even do animations. blender does, of course.
<wpwrak>
i would want to use them for milling
<wpwrak>
that is, the mesh the cad program generates
<wpwrak>
send it through a toolpath generator, and then off to the mill
<wpwrak>
of course, the toolpath generator is a bit tricky :) i've solved that for 2D. but for 3D, i'd still have to go via heekscad
<wolfspraul>
milling, hmm
<wolfspraul>
so it makes most sense for parts with curved surfaces
<wolfspraul>
for example the current m1 case starts with flat acrylic parts
<wolfspraul>
and the only thing happening to those parts is to cut some holes/edges
<wolfspraul>
no need for a mesh, openscad, milling
<kristianpaul>
or plastic extrude, yeah heekscad is pretty good for that too :)
<wolfspraul>
right?
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: let the fun start. I will go through a real-time test of your --qi image now
<wolfspraul>
m1 the bug minefield, let's see how far I make it ;-) (nobody's fault, I love the thing and our work)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I see you had to hold yourself back replying to Yi's "found 2 bugs" mail ;-)
<wolfspraul>
we should proudly declare m1 to be the buggiest computing platform ever
<wolfspraul>
I think we can easily declare m1 to hold at least (!) 1000 bugs :-)
<wpwrak>
naw, it's not the buggiest ;-)
<wpwrak>
(m1 case) yes, i'd consider this a purely 2D problem. (unless you change the case :)
<wolfspraul>
we should offer our customers a special return right - *if* they don't find a bug in the first hour of using the product, they have a right to return for full refund... :-)
<wolfspraul>
(I've actually seen that with some other open hardware products, and I liked the idea)
<wolfspraul>
so for the current m1 case, any openscad endeavor would mostly be for the purpose of visualizing the case, animations, ads, educational, illustrated guide, etc.
<wolfspraul>
which means - for that use case - one might also look at Blender, at least compare
<wpwrak>
if you want to make an unboxing movie, then yes, something like blender should be suitable. not sure how well it can be scripted, though
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
that's why I was asking about 'what is the end goal' first
<wpwrak>
as far as i know, it's not parametric, so you'd have to use scripting as a workaround. that is, if you value your sanity ;-)
<wolfspraul>
because I'm sure in terms of artistic freedom, blender will give you more options
<wolfspraul>
say you want to project images, lights, gradients, whatever on the sides
<wolfspraul>
you want to rotate it, you want to make the case appear in a 3D stage setting, and so on
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<wpwrak>
yes. what i don't know is if blender is good for cad. i was looking for construction. "part A being 10.5 mm from part B" vs. "drag it into that corner until it looks good" :)
<wolfspraul>
yes I totally understand
<wolfspraul>
if the end goal is to mill non-flat surfaces, makes perfect sense
<zenlunatic>
sometimes my ben shutsoff when i pick it up
<zenlunatic>
nvm forgot to upgrade the default firmware
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<jow_laptop>
hm there's a libdirectfb binding for Lua now, might be worth porting to the NN
<wpwrak>
so, we have ground on both ends of the connector. is this generally a good idea ? i think it should be, because it provides more direct ground return and also puts a ground close to supply rail, which in turn should make it easier to bypass components on single-sided boards.
<wpwrak>
what i don't know is just how desirable this is, compared to having just one pair of ground pins. would the difference be major ? or negligible.
<wpwrak>
e.g., in terms of the maximum signal frequency we can use. the connectors are 0.1" headers. not exactly RF, but we should make the best of them :)
<DocScrutinizer>
please rephrase "which in turn should make it easier to bypass components"
<DocScrutinizer>
impact on HF: none
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd rather dedicate one GND to 3.3/5V
<DocScrutinizer>
basically it's waste of wires on flat cable
<DocScrutinizer>
unless you expect to power massive dirty load via 3V3 or 5V
<DocScrutinizer>
where separate GND lines might have a very positive effect for noise floor
<DocScrutinizer>
OTOH there are de-facto standard wire counts for flat cable, and rather unusual ones. Can't say if 20 is the former or the latter category
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe just keep 1 or 2 of those 4 GND lines NC with a open thruhole testpad, to use for mods of any kind
<wpwrak>
before we had 18, which was a non-standard count. 20 seems to be fine. (we went to 20 a few days ago, just because of this)
<DocScrutinizer>
at very least route PCB in a way so user easily can cut GND connection of 1 or 2 of those GND lines, then solder a wire to solder side of header
<DocScrutinizer>
btw I'm not really happy with pinout of J21
<wpwrak>
the headers may be used with cables. or with boards.
<wpwrak>
ah, why ?
<DocScrutinizer>
figure what happens when plugged in 180° rotated
<DocScrutinizer>
you get 5V to GND and GND to some GPIO
<wpwrak>
you learn from your mistakes :)
<DocScrutinizer>
particularly L21P_1 and L9N_1
<DocScrutinizer>
will get reverse 5V
<wpwrak>
yes ... but it's kinda hard to fix this, no ? unless we require that a circuit always connects all the grounds. they we could cook up some scheme that shorts 5V to GND if reversed
<DocScrutinizer>
also for RF/EMI it was better to have VDD on 1,3 and GND on 2,4 (or vice versa)
<DocScrutinizer>
but that defeats your safety gap from 5V to IO
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wpwrak>
also, J21 has the "pair of supplies and both ends" concept in M1rc2/3. rearranging this would totally break compatibility.
<DocScrutinizer>
tbh I'd consider cut away post 3 on J21
<wpwrak>
we could do this with J22, though. not sure if it would make things better it worse.
<DocScrutinizer>
and recommend a plug in pos 3 of connector
<wpwrak>
for keying ?
<wpwrak>
you mean a rubber plug ?
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<DocScrutinizer>
blocks any user that tries to insert plug 180° rotated
<DocScrutinizer>
if user thinks he doesn't need that, it's not us to blame for blue smoke
<wpwrak>
why pin 3 and not pin 1 or 2 ?
<wpwrak>
pin 3 would be good for J22, though
<DocScrutinizer>
on J22 you could cut pin4 instead
<wpwrak>
yes, 3 or 4.
<wpwrak>
why 3 o J21 ? and not 1/2 ?
<DocScrutinizer>
whatever
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
thought J21 has 4 GND, one less is no problem
<wpwrak>
both currently have 4 x GND
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<DocScrutinizer>
that'S why I suggested 3 on one and 4 on the other
<DocScrutinizer>
err
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe 1 or 2 on J22
<wpwrak>
and 3/4 on J21 ? or also 1/2 ?
<DocScrutinizer>
ok, my ultimate advice: cut pin1 on J22. Cut pin4 on J21
<DocScrutinizer>
dedicate adjacent GND to the 3V3 resp 5V line
<wpwrak>
grmbl. not all of those nipples are created equal :-(
<DocScrutinizer>
declare J21:3 as 'dirty' and 4 as 'clean'
<wpwrak>
i just tried to make such a keyed female connector. but the rubber/plastic key doesn't fit
<DocScrutinizer>
hmm
<wpwrak>
dirty ? clean ? one is connected to other isn't :)
<wpwrak>
(rubber thing) well, it's a sourcing problem :)
<DocScrutinizer>
in RL yes, but in clean theory we have two distinct lines
<DocScrutinizer>
a future rev may introduce a fuse and choke and buffer C on M1 for J21:2,3
<DocScrutinizer>
NOT for J21:4
<DocScrutinizer>
get my idea?
<wpwrak>
not sure. would you leave the pin unconnected on the M1 side ? or just ground it ?
<wpwrak>
(M1 is female)
<DocScrutinizer>
for same reason I'd layout board in a way so user can cut up path from J21:3 to GND
<DocScrutinizer>
3V3_clean aka 3V3_digital, same domain as all the IO and GND on 19,20
<DocScrutinizer>
3V3_dirty for dunno motors etc
<DocScrutinizer>
3V3_clean for digital
<DocScrutinizer>
that's all mere definition for now
<DocScrutinizer>
though user already should follow these guidelines on his extension board
<DocScrutinizer>
when he doesn't need 3V3_clean for the digital part of his stepper motor control, leave it NC
<DocScrutinizer>
will make a nice separator on flat cable
<DocScrutinizer>
less crosstalk to IO_L1P_A25_1
<wpwrak>
hmm. with the current circuit, expansion boards would have to provide their own cleaning.
<wpwrak>
which would seem appropriate punishment for trying to hook up motors :)
<DocScrutinizer>
whatever, you got my suggestion
<DocScrutinizer>
o/
<wpwrak>
:)
<wpwrak>
the clean/dirty rails scare me :)
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<DocScrutinizer>
call it raw and digital then
<DocScrutinizer>
err, other way round, of course
<wpwrak>
we already have "raw". but that's something else.
<DocScrutinizer>
clean==digital
<DocScrutinizer>
s/raw/high power
<wpwrak>
i'd just say "don't connect motors, tesla coils, or tachyon colliders" :)
<wpwrak>
let's not over-engineer this :)
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd just say "never short the two 3V3 at your extension board. Use 4 for digital and 3 for other supply purposes"
<wpwrak>
if we really wanted to supply tons of power, we could add 5V/GND header right at the DC input. do as they do in PCs.
<DocScrutinizer>
meh
<DocScrutinizer>
who's over-engineering this now
<wpwrak>
i'm not saying i want to add this ;-)
<wpwrak>
that was conditional irrealis (or whatever you call this in english) :)
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm just suggesting one or two sentences in user manual, on recommended use of those lines
<DocScrutinizer>
no engineering at all involved
<DocScrutinizer>
or all just engineering and no real changes
<wpwrak>
my concern is that we want neither a massive power drawn nor anything sparky in that area
<DocScrutinizer>
so you should add a thrid sentence for that
<DocScrutinizer>
;-D
<wpwrak>
we probably have 500 mA absolute maximum of 3.3 V and 5 V combined
<DocScrutinizer>
whatever
<DocScrutinizer>
it's not the absolute current but rather the edges
<DocScrutinizer>
slew rate
<wpwrak>
but i like the keying :)
<wpwrak>
(edges) yup. but then, they're most likely to exist on digital anyway
<DocScrutinizer>
and if you drive a 1W LED from the 3V3, I strongly suggest doing this via J21:3 only, NOT via J21:4
<wpwrak>
so with that logic, you'd prefer to connect digital to the scrubber :)
<DocScrutinizer>
*sigh*
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
I don't feel like discussing this right now
<DocScrutinizer>
use it or bin it
<wpwrak>
i'll file it
<wpwrak>
since we don't have a scrubber at present, there's nothing to be gained by adding design rules that are irrelevant in practice
<wpwrak>
better if people who do nasty things design their own scrubber
<wpwrak>
it'll also be closer to the consumer, thus we'll have less EMI from the nasty stuff
<wpwrak>
btw, are you on the milkymist mailing list ?
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<wolfspraul>
good morning everybody
<wolfspraul>
nice to see Joerg - hope you are well!
<DocScrutinizer>
well, I kinda grew old during the last 4 years
<DocScrutinizer>
working 10h/day leaves me wasted
<DocScrutinizer>
otherwise fine
<wolfspraul>
we have to find a jungbrunnen for you :-)
<wpwrak>
hmm. you started in december. that's 3 months. yet you feel as if 4 years had passed. so you're accelerated by a factor of 16 :)
<DocScrutinizer>
nah, that deficit in available power predated the start of job at STE
<DocScrutinizer>
and actually job starts to relax a bit, since quantum to learn per day diminished from a month's equivalent to something more manageable
<DocScrutinizer>
the hardest part though is going to sleep err 50min ago ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
to show up at work 8 o'clock in the morning (sth I haven't managed to accomplish a single time yet)
<DocScrutinizer>
next week I *have* to
<DocScrutinizer>
3 day seminar on code qulaity, held by ENEA
<DocScrutinizer>
n8
<DocScrutinizer>
yesterday I got the shocking info they want to keep me for at least another 4 months
<DocScrutinizer>
and expect to extend that to end of 2012
<wpwrak>
my condolences ! ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
thanks
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<DocScrutinizer>
so I have the exciting perspective to handle another few tickets like "one out of 3000 devices shows 100% reproducible data corruption of downloaded file. Please check driver of the interface used for download!"