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<qi-bot>
Fabricatorz: @yannsionneau Will you send some of the images via email to everyone@fabricatorz.com We'd like to share with more folks @qihardware ( 230152677005332481@fabricatorz - 33s ago via HootSuite )
<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: btw, how do you go about properly pricing components, for volume production ? do you ask adam to get quotes ? do you ask around yourself ?
<wolfspra1l>
not sure what you mean
<wolfspra1l>
mostly I focus on how I can actually get the components, not the price
<wolfspra1l>
at low volumes (that can go into the thousands), any sort of overhead associated with sourcing is typically more expensive than a component price difference
<wolfspra1l>
other than that I think you know the whole sourcing situation quite well
<wolfspra1l>
digikey
<wolfspra1l>
official distributors in us, taiwan
<wolfspra1l>
and then the special case china where 47% of all global semiconductors are being sold nowadays
<wolfspra1l>
so maybe it's not the special case after all, we can assume it to go >50% this year? :-)
<wolfspra1l>
in china competition is so crazy intense that I can get the 'volume' price down to volume of 1, more or less
<wpwrak>
i'm more thinking of millions. find out what chips really cost in the end. digi-key sometimes only go to tiny quantities, like 100 units. most distributors stop at a few 1000 - a bunch of reels, not more.
<wolfspra1l>
well, that's a different matter
<wpwrak>
that's why i ask ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
in those quantities depending what it is you need to hookup with the manufacturer anyway
<wolfspra1l>
for forecasting etc.
<wolfspra1l>
otherwise you can order 5 million but you won't get it, plain and simple
<wpwrak>
sure :)
<wolfspra1l>
for large quantities, really large - contact manufacturer directly
<wpwrak>
but do you have a means to obtain a rough estimate of the price without actually committing to anything ?
<wpwrak>
could be digi-key price * factor
<wolfspra1l>
if they don't know you they will probably not waste 1 minute talking with you
<wolfspra1l>
no, difficult
<wolfspra1l>
you can calculate from raw material costs upwards
<wolfspra1l>
digikey is a totally different world then
<wolfspra1l>
if I want to order 10 million lcd controllers from ilitek, for example - they assume I know all raw materials and manufacturing costs anyway
<wolfspra1l>
there is not 1 buyer who would not know
<wolfspra1l>
with a little research you can find solid pricing on wafer starts etc from tsmc, umc, etc.
<wolfspra1l>
if you are really buying in those quantities you know all these numbers
<wolfspra1l>
and that's the bottom of your negotiation :-)
<wolfspra1l>
then there are lots of chips also with special manufacturing, special materials, special whatever
<wpwrak>
well, the materials per se are a given. it's most likely tssop-20. the rest depends on how much value the respective company puts on what they do with the silicon.
<wolfspra1l>
but again, if you are a serious potential buyer for such chips in millions of units, you will also know exactly
<wolfspra1l>
in large quantities, you can definitely think raw materials/processing up
<wolfspra1l>
large = millions at least
<wolfspra1l>
there's a lot of competition
<wolfspra1l>
so why would they not take your money, even if their profit is just 10k usd...
<wolfspra1l>
the only exception are chips with really unique and valuable ip
<wpwrak>
so, attiny167 or attiny87. first, it would be interesting to know if there's a significant difference between the two.
<wolfspra1l>
they are priced by whoever holds the ip :-)
<wolfspra1l>
you would need to talk to atmel sales
<wpwrak>
(difference ... in terms of price)
<wolfspra1l>
how about die space etc?
<wolfspra1l>
the problem is most likely those sales guys will not talk to you, or me
<wolfspra1l>
because they know as much as we 'inquire', most likely we will not buy
<wpwrak>
same package. the rest would have the be found out by x-ray if we're expected to bring that information to the table
<wpwrak>
well, or solvents :)
<wolfspra1l>
I cannot talk to atmel sales anyway
<wpwrak>
why ?
<wolfspra1l>
they won't answer
<wpwrak>
you tried ?
<wolfspra1l>
no
<wolfspra1l>
but it's always the same, and makes lots of sense
<wpwrak>
or did you make enemies already ?
<wolfspra1l>
a buyer for large quantities doesn't just appear on the street
<wolfspra1l>
no enemies in business
<wolfspra1l>
if someone can make money from me, they will overcome any difficulty, right? :-)
<wolfspra1l>
you can try
<wolfspra1l>
but like I said, all semiconductor sales I know work with short lists
<wolfspra1l>
short lists of known customers
<wpwrak>
there are a lot of people who can pay a few USD 100k (for, say, 1 M chips). they can't possibly expect to know them all.
<wolfspra1l>
for the type of question you have, I'm afraid only the semiconductor sales people themselves can help
<wolfspra1l>
the distributors won't
<wpwrak>
atmel isn't that niche. i could imagine a very restrictive policy for things like telephiny chips, but an avr ?
<wolfspra1l>
they have a set discount table, and if someone can really outgrow that they will outgrow the distributor anyway
<wolfspra1l>
I have not seen 'restrictive policies'
<wolfspra1l>
it's just about money
<wolfspra1l>
how many sales staff do they have, and how much revenue does each have to generate each day?
<wpwrak>
restrictive policy = they won't talk to you
<wolfspra1l>
and how many chips have to be sold to make that happen
<wolfspra1l>
etc. etc.
<wolfspra1l>
no of course not
<wpwrak>
of course, at 1 M you may still be too small for the manufacturer
<wolfspra1l>
they just want to find the money, the real money
<wolfspra1l>
and as we know well, there must be about 1 million times or more talk in the world than money, right? :-)
<wolfspra1l>
the nature of money maybe
<wolfspra1l>
yes, maybe
<wolfspra1l>
it's all just pennies
<wolfspra1l>
but does it matter to you?
<wolfspra1l>
you can work with raw materials costs anyway
<wolfspra1l>
or do you depend on some specific atmel ip?
<wolfspra1l>
everything can be changed...
<wolfspra1l>
so it's just "how much money does it cost you to switch to ip from vendor x?" vs "how much above cost of raw materials is atmel?"
<wolfspra1l>
it can't be that much
<wpwrak>
i need to know which MCU i can use. changing MCUs is a bit effort in this case.
<wpwrak>
s/bit/big
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "i need to know which MCU i can use. changing MCUs is a big effort in this case."
<wolfspra1l>
there are few semiconductors with enough strength to really stay away from this raw material comparison
<wolfspra1l>
or maybe only for a short period of time, like a few months
<wolfspra1l>
yeah a 'bit' effort, fine
<wpwrak>
it's not the MCU's IP by itself, but what's built on top. and that's very architecture-specific
<wolfspra1l>
but you talk about money
<wolfspra1l>
effort so what
<wolfspra1l>
your effort
<wpwrak>
time is money
<wolfspra1l>
if you save/make money, it may still be worth it
<wolfspra1l>
yes, but it sets a limit as to how much above raw materials atmel can be
<wolfspra1l>
and can be sustainable
<wolfspra1l>
sustainably
<wolfspra1l>
the digikey prices are on a totally different level
<wpwrak>
so you're saying Atmel don't put an unusual margin on top of raw materials, for their AVRs ?
<wolfspra1l>
in large quantities, if there is a dollar difference, that's a lot of engineering potential to change chips :-)
<wolfspra1l>
I doubt they can
<wolfspra1l>
you tell me
<wolfspra1l>
switching costs how much?
<wpwrak>
i.e., going to TI, microchip, or NXP would yield roughly the same result ?
<wolfspra1l>
100k usd?
<wolfspra1l>
so that's very little
<wolfspra1l>
it depends on the chip and what's special about it and what of that you really need
<wpwrak>
switching costs = 2-4 months
<wolfspra1l>
yeah, so all zero in relation to anything 'large volume'
<wpwrak>
well, de facto betting on the wrong chip would mean the project will not materialize
<wolfspra1l>
understand
<wolfspra1l>
but again, there is nothing special in those chips from your perspective
<wolfspra1l>
I wouldn't know why you couldn't get them < 1 usd
<wolfspra1l>
what's your price now?
<wolfspra1l>
even less, why not. but the issue at some point becomes whether it's worth for anyone to talk about another 10 cents less
<wolfspra1l>
ilitek sales told me they are now negotiating over 0.5 cents :-)
<wolfspra1l>
but think about it, even for a volume of 10 million, that's just what...
<wpwrak>
about 1 USD. but digi-key only go up to 100 units.
<wpwrak>
they don't even have T&R
<wolfspra1l>
50k usd, right?
<wolfspra1l>
can you imagine at a volume of 10 million (!) how many things can go wrong that will immediately cost more than 50k usd?
<wolfspra1l>
so someone having the patience/guts to sit down and squeeze those 50k usd out, that is quite extreme
<wpwrak>
it's all noise + offset :)
<wolfspra1l>
maybe changing one word in the headline of an advertisement will make a bigger difference
<wolfspra1l>
but anyway they will still sit down and try to squeeze those 50k usd out as well
<wolfspra1l>
if it's 1 usd at digikey, then I am sure in really large volume it can easily be 50 cents or less, 30, 20
<wolfspra1l>
packaging becomes a big issue then
<wolfspra1l>
and someone needs to think that taking the time to sit down with you and talk about another 5 cents reduction is worth it for anyone (!), including you
<wpwrak>
heh, good point :)
<wpwrak>
i also need some LEDs. they're trickier, because there may be .cn equivalents that are cheaper than the ones digi-key have.
<wpwrak>
and a USB connector. same thing.
<wolfspra1l>
not sure, wait
<wolfspra1l>
usb connector - don't buy one from a mainland chinese company
<wolfspra1l>
the only advantage they have is that it's really really lousy quality
<wolfspra1l>
so pretty much any serious brand company will buy one from a taiwanese or japanese manufacturer
<wpwrak>
it doesn't have to have to be premium quality
<wolfspra1l>
which may very well have factories in china, of course
<wolfspra1l>
and they may sell them primarily in china
<wolfspra1l>
but just trying to steer you away from mainland brands in this case
<wolfspra1l>
their niche is the rusty niche ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
for those connectors...
<wpwrak>
yeah, you mentioned connector issues before :)
<wolfspra1l>
but of course, for those you can get pricing only in china
<wpwrak>
oh, if the thing corrodes after a year in the field, that's perfectly fine
<wolfspra1l>
what if it corrodes after 2 weeks? :-)
<wolfspra1l>
stay with taiwan/japan brand on those
<wpwrak>
that would be bad. should last at least 3 months
<wpwrak>
(of light use)
<wolfspra1l>
japan are the best but also a little more expensive, so then taiwanese
<wolfspra1l>
leds don't know
<wpwrak>
alright, leds and connector aren't so critical at the moment, because they're trivial to swap
<wolfspra1l>
sure so it's again raw materials price
<wolfspra1l>
and processing/manufacturing overhead
<wpwrak>
mcu is a different kind of beast
<wolfspra1l>
that's why the mainland companies cannot take market share from taiwan/japan brands on the connectors
<wolfspra1l>
they could never recoup their investments
<wolfspra1l>
so they focus on the rusty niche instead :-)
<wolfspra1l>
hire a few guys from the street, and start producing something...
<wpwrak>
the leds have one special requirement: they should be in the "knee" for brightness vs. price. the brighter the better - as long as the price doesn't explode
<wolfspra1l>
leds don't know, this is an area of extreme investment and competition right now
<wpwrak>
yeah :)
<wpwrak>
at least the color is simple: red :) and they're in a standard package, 0603. no fancy lenses or anything.
<wpwrak>
actually, even the color doesn't matter that much, as long as the forward voltage is around 2 V and they're bright. but red seems to be the most likely candidate. nothing else is as good as red.
<wpwrak>
one issue with the mcu is that it'll run outside specs. the oscillator is supposed to deliver 8 MHz but can be calibrated up to something like 13 MHz. i need 12 MHz. but it seems one can get away with that fairly reliably.
<wpwrak>
and that ability exists in a whole range of similar chips (by atmel), so it's unlikely to change over night
<wpwrak>
particularly not in such an ultra-conservative product line
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<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: bacon/prog/Makefile: remove references to C2, inherited from f32xbase (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/7fe9ae1
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<gargon>
hello. sorry for this newbie question: how can I set syntax highlighting in vim for eg. python language? For the :syntax on command, I get "cant open file /usr/share/vim/vim73/syntax/syntax.vim"
<pang>
did you ask google?
<viric>
in the nanonote you mean?
<viric>
gargon: it should tell why it can't open it.
<gargon>
it simply does not exist
<viric>
you should ask people of the distribution you use.
<viric>
or whoever was in charge in your system of having put those files there.
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<gargon>
viric: it is the "official" distribution
<viric>
ah, so in the nanonote?
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<gargon>
viric: yes, on the nanonote, I forgot to say it
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<viric>
gargon: maybe #openwrt people can help better, I don't know. I don't use openwrt in the nanonote.
<gargon>
viric: just for curiosity: what are you using on it?
<viric>
nanonixos
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