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<qi-bot> Fabricatorz: @yannsionneau Will you send some of the images via email to everyone@fabricatorz.com We'd like to share with more folks @qihardware ( 230152677005332481@fabricatorz - 33s ago via HootSuite )
<wpwrak> wolfspra1l: btw, how do you go about properly pricing components, for volume production ? do you ask adam to get quotes ? do you ask around yourself ?
<wolfspra1l> not sure what you mean
<wolfspra1l> mostly I focus on how I can actually get the components, not the price
<wolfspra1l> at low volumes (that can go into the thousands), any sort of overhead associated with sourcing is typically more expensive than a component price difference
<wolfspra1l> other than that I think you know the whole sourcing situation quite well
<wolfspra1l> digikey
<wolfspra1l> official distributors in us, taiwan
<wolfspra1l> and then the special case china where 47% of all global semiconductors are being sold nowadays
<wolfspra1l> so maybe it's not the special case after all, we can assume it to go >50% this year? :-)
<wolfspra1l> in china competition is so crazy intense that I can get the 'volume' price down to volume of 1, more or less
<wpwrak> i'm more thinking of millions. find out what chips really cost in the end. digi-key sometimes only go to tiny quantities, like 100 units. most distributors stop at a few 1000 - a bunch of reels, not more.
<wolfspra1l> well, that's a different matter
<wpwrak> that's why i ask ;-)
<wolfspra1l> in those quantities depending what it is you need to hookup with the manufacturer anyway
<wolfspra1l> for forecasting etc.
<wolfspra1l> otherwise you can order 5 million but you won't get it, plain and simple
<wpwrak> sure :)
<wolfspra1l> for large quantities, really large - contact manufacturer directly
<wpwrak> but do you have a means to obtain a rough estimate of the price without actually committing to anything ?
<wpwrak> could be digi-key price * factor
<wolfspra1l> if they don't know you they will probably not waste 1 minute talking with you
<wolfspra1l> no, difficult
<wolfspra1l> you can calculate from raw material costs upwards
<wolfspra1l> digikey is a totally different world then
<wolfspra1l> if I want to order 10 million lcd controllers from ilitek, for example - they assume I know all raw materials and manufacturing costs anyway
<wolfspra1l> there is not 1 buyer who would not know
<wolfspra1l> with a little research you can find solid pricing on wafer starts etc from tsmc, umc, etc.
<wolfspra1l> if you are really buying in those quantities you know all these numbers
<wolfspra1l> and that's the bottom of your negotiation :-)
<wolfspra1l> then there are lots of chips also with special manufacturing, special materials, special whatever
<wpwrak> well, the materials per se are a given. it's most likely tssop-20. the rest depends on how much value the respective company puts on what they do with the silicon.
<wolfspra1l> but again, if you are a serious potential buyer for such chips in millions of units, you will also know exactly
<wolfspra1l> in large quantities, you can definitely think raw materials/processing up
<wolfspra1l> large = millions at least
<wolfspra1l> there's a lot of competition
<wolfspra1l> so why would they not take your money, even if their profit is just 10k usd...
<wolfspra1l> the only exception are chips with really unique and valuable ip
<wpwrak> so, attiny167 or attiny87. first, it would be interesting to know if there's a significant difference between the two.
<wolfspra1l> they are priced by whoever holds the ip :-)
<wolfspra1l> you would need to talk to atmel sales
<wpwrak> (difference ... in terms of price)
<wolfspra1l> how about die space etc?
<wolfspra1l> the problem is most likely those sales guys will not talk to you, or me
<wolfspra1l> because they know as much as we 'inquire', most likely we will not buy
<wpwrak> same package. the rest would have the be found out by x-ray if we're expected to bring that information to the table
<wpwrak> well, or solvents :)
<wolfspra1l> I cannot talk to atmel sales anyway
<wpwrak> why ?
<wolfspra1l> they won't answer
<wpwrak> you tried ?
<wolfspra1l> no
<wolfspra1l> but it's always the same, and makes lots of sense
<wpwrak> or did you make enemies already ?
<wolfspra1l> a buyer for large quantities doesn't just appear on the street
<wolfspra1l> no enemies in business
<wolfspra1l> if someone can make money from me, they will overcome any difficulty, right? :-)
<wolfspra1l> you can try
<wolfspra1l> but like I said, all semiconductor sales I know work with short lists
<wolfspra1l> short lists of known customers
<wpwrak> there are a lot of people who can pay a few USD 100k (for, say, 1 M chips). they can't possibly expect to know them all.
<wolfspra1l> for the type of question you have, I'm afraid only the semiconductor sales people themselves can help
<wolfspra1l> the distributors won't
<wpwrak> atmel isn't that niche. i could imagine a very restrictive policy for things like telephiny chips, but an avr ?
<wolfspra1l> they have a set discount table, and if someone can really outgrow that they will outgrow the distributor anyway
<wolfspra1l> I have not seen 'restrictive policies'
<wolfspra1l> it's just about money
<wolfspra1l> how many sales staff do they have, and how much revenue does each have to generate each day?
<wpwrak> restrictive policy = they won't talk to you
<wolfspra1l> and how many chips have to be sold to make that happen
<wolfspra1l> etc. etc.
<wolfspra1l> no of course not
<wpwrak> of course, at 1 M you may still be too small for the manufacturer
<wolfspra1l> they just want to find the money, the real money
<wolfspra1l> and as we know well, there must be about 1 million times or more talk in the world than money, right? :-)
<wolfspra1l> the nature of money maybe
<wolfspra1l> yes, maybe
<wolfspra1l> it's all just pennies
<wolfspra1l> but does it matter to you?
<wolfspra1l> you can work with raw materials costs anyway
<wolfspra1l> or do you depend on some specific atmel ip?
<wolfspra1l> everything can be changed...
<wolfspra1l> so it's just "how much money does it cost you to switch to ip from vendor x?" vs "how much above cost of raw materials is atmel?"
<wolfspra1l> it can't be that much
<wpwrak> i need to know which MCU i can use. changing MCUs is a bit effort in this case.
<wpwrak> s/bit/big
<qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "i need to know which MCU i can use. changing MCUs is a big effort in this case."
<wolfspra1l> there are few semiconductors with enough strength to really stay away from this raw material comparison
<wolfspra1l> or maybe only for a short period of time, like a few months
<wolfspra1l> yeah a 'bit' effort, fine
<wpwrak> it's not the MCU's IP by itself, but what's built on top. and that's very architecture-specific
<wolfspra1l> but you talk about money
<wolfspra1l> effort so what
<wolfspra1l> your effort
<wpwrak> time is money
<wolfspra1l> if you save/make money, it may still be worth it
<wolfspra1l> yes, but it sets a limit as to how much above raw materials atmel can be
<wolfspra1l> and can be sustainable
<wolfspra1l> sustainably
<wolfspra1l> the digikey prices are on a totally different level
<wpwrak> so you're saying Atmel don't put an unusual margin on top of raw materials, for their AVRs ?
<wolfspra1l> in large quantities, if there is a dollar difference, that's a lot of engineering potential to change chips :-)
<wolfspra1l> I doubt they can
<wolfspra1l> you tell me
<wolfspra1l> switching costs how much?
<wpwrak> i.e., going to TI, microchip, or NXP would yield roughly the same result ?
<wolfspra1l> 100k usd?
<wolfspra1l> so that's very little
<wolfspra1l> it depends on the chip and what's special about it and what of that you really need
<wpwrak> switching costs = 2-4 months
<wolfspra1l> yeah, so all zero in relation to anything 'large volume'
<wpwrak> well, de facto betting on the wrong chip would mean the project will not materialize
<wolfspra1l> understand
<wolfspra1l> but again, there is nothing special in those chips from your perspective
<wolfspra1l> I wouldn't know why you couldn't get them < 1 usd
<wolfspra1l> what's your price now?
<wolfspra1l> even less, why not. but the issue at some point becomes whether it's worth for anyone to talk about another 10 cents less
<wolfspra1l> ilitek sales told me they are now negotiating over 0.5 cents :-)
<wolfspra1l> but think about it, even for a volume of 10 million, that's just what...
<wpwrak> about 1 USD. but digi-key only go up to 100 units.
<wpwrak> they don't even have T&R
<wolfspra1l> 50k usd, right?
<wolfspra1l> can you imagine at a volume of 10 million (!) how many things can go wrong that will immediately cost more than 50k usd?
<wolfspra1l> so someone having the patience/guts to sit down and squeeze those 50k usd out, that is quite extreme
<wpwrak> it's all noise + offset :)
<wolfspra1l> maybe changing one word in the headline of an advertisement will make a bigger difference
<wolfspra1l> but anyway they will still sit down and try to squeeze those 50k usd out as well
<wolfspra1l> if it's 1 usd at digikey, then I am sure in really large volume it can easily be 50 cents or less, 30, 20
<wolfspra1l> packaging becomes a big issue then
<wolfspra1l> and someone needs to think that taking the time to sit down with you and talk about another 5 cents reduction is worth it for anyone (!), including you
<wpwrak> heh, good point :)
<wpwrak> i also need some LEDs. they're trickier, because there may be .cn equivalents that are cheaper than the ones digi-key have.
<wpwrak> and a USB connector. same thing.
<wolfspra1l> not sure, wait
<wolfspra1l> usb connector - don't buy one from a mainland chinese company
<wolfspra1l> the only advantage they have is that it's really really lousy quality
<wolfspra1l> so pretty much any serious brand company will buy one from a taiwanese or japanese manufacturer
<wpwrak> it doesn't have to have to be premium quality
<wolfspra1l> which may very well have factories in china, of course
<wolfspra1l> and they may sell them primarily in china
<wolfspra1l> but just trying to steer you away from mainland brands in this case
<wolfspra1l> their niche is the rusty niche ;-)
<wolfspra1l> for those connectors...
<wpwrak> yeah, you mentioned connector issues before :)
<wolfspra1l> but of course, for those you can get pricing only in china
<wpwrak> oh, if the thing corrodes after a year in the field, that's perfectly fine
<wolfspra1l> what if it corrodes after 2 weeks? :-)
<wolfspra1l> stay with taiwan/japan brand on those
<wpwrak> that would be bad. should last at least 3 months
<wpwrak> (of light use)
<wolfspra1l> japan are the best but also a little more expensive, so then taiwanese
<wolfspra1l> leds don't know
<wpwrak> alright, leds and connector aren't so critical at the moment, because they're trivial to swap
<wolfspra1l> sure so it's again raw materials price
<wolfspra1l> and processing/manufacturing overhead
<wpwrak> mcu is a different kind of beast
<wolfspra1l> that's why the mainland companies cannot take market share from taiwan/japan brands on the connectors
<wolfspra1l> they could never recoup their investments
<wolfspra1l> so they focus on the rusty niche instead :-)
<wolfspra1l> hire a few guys from the street, and start producing something...
<wpwrak> the leds have one special requirement: they should be in the "knee" for brightness vs. price. the brighter the better - as long as the price doesn't explode
<wolfspra1l> leds don't know, this is an area of extreme investment and competition right now
<wpwrak> yeah :)
<wpwrak> at least the color is simple: red :) and they're in a standard package, 0603. no fancy lenses or anything.
<wpwrak> actually, even the color doesn't matter that much, as long as the forward voltage is around 2 V and they're bright. but red seems to be the most likely candidate. nothing else is as good as red.
<wpwrak> one issue with the mcu is that it'll run outside specs. the oscillator is supposed to deliver 8 MHz but can be calibrated up to something like 13 MHz. i need 12 MHz. but it seems one can get away with that fairly reliably.
<wpwrak> and that ability exists in a whole range of similar chips (by atmel), so it's unlikely to change over night
<wpwrak> particularly not in such an ultra-conservative product line
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: bacon/prog/Makefile: remove references to C2, inherited from f32xbase (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/7fe9ae1
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<gargon> hello. sorry for this newbie question: how can I set syntax highlighting in vim for eg. python language? For the :syntax on command, I get "cant open file /usr/share/vim/vim73/syntax/syntax.vim"
<pang> did you ask google?
<viric> in the nanonote you mean?
<viric> gargon: it should tell why it can't open it.
<gargon> it simply does not exist
<viric> you should ask people of the distribution you use.
<viric> or whoever was in charge in your system of having put those files there.
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<gargon> viric: it is the "official" distribution
<viric> ah, so in the nanonote?
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<gargon> viric: yes, on the nanonote, I forgot to say it
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<viric> gargon: maybe #openwrt people can help better, I don't know. I don't use openwrt in the nanonote.
<gargon> viric: just for curiosity: what are you using on it?
<viric> nanonixos
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