#bitcoin-wizards on 2015-05-03 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

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01:26 <amiller> my favorite research project these days is trying to figure out how to model bitcoin and smart contracts using the "universal composability" framework

01:27 <amiller> there's a really pleasing kind of abstract structure of using this framework, that's basically independent of the actual details of the "cryptography"

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01:28 <amiller> by "details of the cryptography", i mean things like elliptic curves, rsa groups, lattices, all the algebra and construction of things from hard math problems

01:30 <amiller> in a nutshell, this framework is about giving "specifications" for your cryptocurrency protocols in a simple and useful way

01:31 <amiller> and by useful i really mean "composable"... essentially this says that the "specification" serves a dual purpose, it acts as a reference for understanding what the protocol is supposed to do, like it should be easy to look at the specification and figure out just what it assumed, just what information is available to attackers, etc.

01:33 <amiller> the second purpose of the "specification" is to act like an api interface, it describes how you can use protocols (and crypto gadgets like signatures, encryptions) to build something else

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01:35 <amiller> here's the main Universal Composability framework paper by the way https://eprint.iacr.org/2000/067 if anyone's following along!

01:36 <amiller> but it's kind of dense and inscrutable, a bit like trying to read the ethereum yellowpaper without sunglasses

01:37 <amiller> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-897-selected-topics-in-cryptography-spring-2004/lecture-notes/ there's actually an entire Open Courseware course about it from that author

01:44 <amiller> one of the things i want to show is that F_Bitcoin can be realized from F_BulletinBoard... these are two specifications, i can actually just program them. F_BulletinBoard is basically a model of everything we like about the general data propagation and sequencing that bitcoin gives.. it's basically a model of proof-of-publication. F_Bitcoin is basically that, plus, a transaction graph

01:49 <amiller> it should be really clear how to prove things about embedded consensus then too, and smart contract programming... anything built on top of a blockchain

01:52 <amiller> ideally id be able to prove things about how to *realize* a blockchain from economic assumptions, or proof of stake, or anything else... i'm interested in that but not sure how to do it. But before that, the real inspiration for starting with this framework is that it should be good for using newfangled crypto primitives *easily* and *correctly*.

01:52 <amiller> SNARKs, ring signatures, hashlock time delay things

01:52 <amiller> multiparty computing

01:54 <amiller> because at least in the crypto world, this security framework is considered the gold standard, so there are UC definitions proven for most/many of them.

01:55 <gmaxwell> I'm not convinced that the UC framework is useful. It may just be that its too too inscrutable for me.

01:56 <gmaxwell> E.g. do the properties it allows you to reason about may to security criteria that matter, or help lay bare assumptions that ought to be considered? I looked before because I ran into some UC papers and couldn't make much sense of it. ... Are there any examples where someone went back and used that framework to show a known broken thing to be broken?

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01:58 <amiller> iddo and ranjit came very close to using it in their bitcoin lottery paper

01:58 <amiller> they used essentially the characteristic parts of that framework but with some simplifications

01:59 <amiller> well, the motivation for it is that there are a lot of interactive protocols that are actually unsafe when they are run concurrently

01:59 <amiller> this really just generalizes simulator proofs which are for sure the best way to define zero knowledge

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02:01 <amiller> it could be used to show that a protocol isn't vulnerable to replay attacks

02:05 <amiller> there is lots of related work on showing how to other things we'd want to model neatly fit in, like some basic rationality assumptions and things like forward secrecy

02:05 <amiller> the most bewildering thing about it to me is how much "trusted setup" seems inherently interwoven in the whole approach though

02:10 <amiller> there are these transformations that are weird because they involve making a protocol "safer" against attacks by building more stuff into the trusted setup

02:11 <amiller> after all, the trusted-setup basically requires you anyway to do some kind of a multi party computation, and hope that at least one of them erases their ram afterwards.

02:12 <amiller> so, why not have them generate some keypairs and stuff while they're at it, then delete those/

02:16 <amiller> im trying to figure out how to articulate this... there's a really clever transformation that involves using signatures and encryption using keys that were destroyed in the trusted setup anyway

02:16 <amiller> like, you publish a snark proof along with an encryption of your secrets to a keypair that was destroyed in the fire hundreds of years ago

02:17 <amiller> to a less more religious person it would seem like a kind of prayer!

02:18 <amiller> or, you build in a little clause that says you can spend these coins if you're the rightful owner *or* if you know satoshi's public key, which was destroyed in the fire

02:19 <amiller> s/satoshi's public key/satoshi's private key/

02:19 <amiller> you can combine these things to have sort of a more secure snark.

02:19 <amiller> but i can't really explain what an *attack* would look like if you don't do these things

02:21 <amiller> it seems a little mad, make a protocol more secure against attacks tomorrow by making it fail even more catastrophically if the setup goes wrong

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11:50 <nsh> amiller, how does this transformation add security to the snark by encrypting secrets against a public key for which the corresponding private key is destroyed during trusted setup?

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12:24 <Eliel> hmmh... the setup phase sounds like it might benefit from the multiparty signature algorithm that allows different parties to produce a signature without revealing their private keys to each other.

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13:00 <nsh> is there any good particular system / context in which to learn about conflict-free replicated data types?

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13:22 <nsh> a blockchain (sidechain) can be used to bootstrap a distributed system of authenticated conflict-free replicated data types, as coin independent-spendabilitiy and fungibility gives commutativity to operations bound to unspent transaction outputs, and idempotence is assured by double-spend resistance

13:24 <nsh> so mining must effect a semilattice join on the monotonically-increasing global blockchain partial-order state of transactions

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13:31 <nsh> actually, it would seem bitcoin exists as a continuous operation-based CRDT for SPV-nodes and above, scaffolded by a periodic [blocktime] state-based CRDT replicated by full nodes and above and updated by miners semilatice-joining a view of the gossip network (operation-based CRDT) at a poisson period in statistical proportion to their hashpower contribution

13:31 <nsh> where the hashpower contribution itself maintains the partial-ordering of the blockchain state

13:32 <nsh> sorry, maintains the monotonicity, and thus partial-ordering of the blockchain state

13:33 <nsh> (i guess strictly it's monotonically increasing because the merkel tree depth increases, which is not directly related to hashing difficulty)

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13:34 <nsh> *merkle

13:36 <nsh> it would be interesting to compare the blockchain disk representation to the lower-bounds for state-based CRDT complexity

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13:43 <Adlai> is bitcoin's blockchain a merkle tree, or just a list?

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13:45 * Adlai isn't sure in which situations you'd only consider the longest chain, as opposed to all computed blocks, losing forks included

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13:47 <nsh> it's the 'longest' chain only

13:47 <nsh> but long is defined in terms of sum of work

13:48 <nsh> a chain with fewer blocks but at higher total difficulty is thus longer than a chain of more blocks at lower difficulty

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13:56 <Adlai> anybody can suggest updates to the CRDT, but *somebody* must pay a computational cost (ie, the PoW) to generate a valid update message; the computational cost is compensated with the freedom to adjust the database in your favor, within a limit that you believe other nodes will find tolerable

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14:00 * nsh nods

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20:42 <Eliel> Adlai: the blockchain is a list of merkle trees.

20:43 <Eliel> every block has one

20:43 <Adlai> *merkle list of merkle trees

20:43 <Eliel> no, just a linked list of merkle trees.

20:44 <Adlai> it's not a regular linked list, it uses partial preimage collision hashpointers

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21:07 <luny> would there be any use for an alt coin that would reward people for running full bitcoin nodes by paying them in that alt coin? i.e. "help bitcoin by running full nodes, and get paid in alt coin"

21:08 <frankenmint> why must it be an alt-coin to pay them

21:08 <frankenmint> ?

21:08 <luny> dunno, who would reward the bitcoin nodes in bitcoin?

21:09 <sipa> there is no reason to pay people to run a bitcoin node

21:09 <sipa> people should *use* a node

21:09 <Adlai> luny: some people have already tried, and realized that "reward bitcoin nodes in bitcoin" is vulnerable to sybil attack in a way that "obtain bitcoin coinsensus" isn't

21:09 <sipa> preferably a full node they control themselves

21:10 <sipa> well, full nodes help the network a bit... lightweight clients and bootstrapping other nodes

21:10 <luny> Adlai, do you mean that people would pretend running a node when in fact they aren't, and hence getting more rewards than they deserve?

21:10 <frankenmint> paying for it to run simply for it to run isn't a proper solution

21:10 <sipa> but for the security of the system, what matters is how many people independently *use* a node

21:11 <sipa> whether that is 1 or 1000 is irrelevant

21:12 <Adlai> luny: I can't dig up the link at the moment, and maybe better that it's so, but somebody published a bitnodes fraud script shortly after the program was announced

21:13 <sipa> luny: using a node is a reward on itself, namely you get the security of verifying that nodoby in the network is cheating, without needing to trust anyone for it

21:13 <luny> yes, good points.. thanks a lot

21:14 <Adlai> luny: for an example of a similar (yet differently motivated) attack on the network, google chainalysis

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