#bitcoin-wizards on 2015-05-21 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

00:00 <phantomcircuit> there's little reason for servers not to generate their own dh prime in the background when they're started though

00:00 <gmaxwell> nsh: fortunately it seems that there doesn't have to be a _use_ for number theory for people to go on thinking it up. :)

00:00 * nsh smiles

00:00 <nsh> quite

00:01 <nsh> recalls a discussion i was having last night based on this reporting: https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150519-will-computers-redefine-the-roots-of-math/

00:01 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well the reason would be whatever unknown cause there was for non-safe DH numbers on thousands of hosts. :)

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00:02 <nsh> (precis: widespread use of Coq might be able to achieve part of the early 20th century overambitious project of systematizing mathematics mechanically)

00:02 <nsh> but with less hubris this time around, hopefully

00:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, true

00:03 <nsh> Coq is a deduction framework, and as Poincare succinctly said: "it is by deduction that we prove, but it is by intuition that we discover"

00:04 <moa> nsh: http://people.brandeis.edu/~cwe/pdfs/primes_and_riemann.pdf might be good place to start re: riemann => primes

00:04 <nsh> ty moa

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00:05 <nsh> there's also: http://empslocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/mrwatkin/zeta/riemannhyp.htm

00:05 <gmaxwell> nsh: deductive systems can help greatly in discovery too. Because you can take a guess and ask the system if it holds-- given all you've taught it so far, and get a yes/no/maybe right away... and this can greatly speed up your work.

00:05 <nsh> right

00:06 <moa> zeoes of zeta and distribution of primes is just so weird there is something deep in there ... i think it is what drives most of the interest in riemann

00:06 <nsh> ideally, we want mathematics to be almost entirely creative and intuitive, leaving the drudgery to the machines of loving grace

00:06 <moa> zeroes of zeta

00:06 * nsh nods

00:07 <nsh> oh that was it, hyperelliptic curve cryptography has a relation to riemann / zeta function

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00:08 <nsh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperelliptic_curve_cryptography#Order_of_the_Jacobian

00:08 <moa> i've found some clues but nothing definitive

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00:09 <moa> a link between bernoulli and euler numbers e.g.

00:11 <moa> a closed form for apery's and a general solution for zeta(2n+1) family would be a good start

00:12 * nsh nods

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00:13 <moa> but wait there's more! ;)

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00:42 <frankenmint> how big can a transaction hash be in digits?

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00:45 <nsh> binary or binascii?

00:46 <frankenmint> uh i think binascii

00:46 <nsh> --

00:46 <nsh> A sha256 is 256 bits long -- as its name indicates. If you are using an hexadecimal representation, each digit codes for 4 bits ; so you need 64 digits to represent 256 bits -- so, you need a varchar(64) , or a char(64) , as the length is always the same, not varying at all.10 Feb 2010

00:46 <frankenmint> not compessed down

00:46 <nsh> -- google inlines stackoverflow answers now...

00:46 <nsh> (in search results, heh)

00:47 <nsh> more details: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2859/how-are-transaction-hashes-calculated

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00:49 <frankenmint> great answer to read

00:50 <frankenmint> dumb related question anyone know why its using little endian?

00:50 <frankenmint> err you answered I mean, do you know

00:50 <nsh> speculations of this sort are inevitably apocryphal

00:51 <nsh> either satoshi had different ideas about endianness at different times when he was designing bitcoin

00:51 <nsh> or the satoshis didn't quite form a coherent consensus on the matter

00:51 * nsh is happy not knowing

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00:53 <frankenmint> my path towards compsci enlightenment improves just a little bit more today, thank you nsh

00:53 <frankenmint> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwise_operation

00:54 * nsh smiles

00:54 <moa> big, little what's the difference it's still endian

00:54 <frankenmint> yea I know what they are and have known for a long time

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00:55 <frankenmint> but I'm not grasping why one is used over another or what point it came up that two equally systems work

00:55 <frankenmint> like working with + or - but its just using absolute value

00:55 <nsh> oh, there are good pages on this

00:55 <moa> bi-endian

00:56 <moa> interoperability is always good

00:56 <nsh> the short answer is: legacy. the longer answer has to do with architectural quirks of processors and network interfaces

00:56 <moa> keeps them on their toes

00:57 <nsh> the answers here are enlightening: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/95556/what-is-the-advantage-of-little-endian-format

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00:57 * frankenmint read that as he reads "On simple low-cost processors, typically, bitwise operations are substantially faster than division, several times faster than multiplication, and sometimes significantly faster than addition. While modern processors usually perform addition and multiplication just as fast as bitwise operations due to their longer instruction pipelines and other architectural design choices,

00:57 * frankenmint bitwise operations do commonly use less power because of the reduced use of resources."

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01:18 <dgenr8> middle-out-endian has the best Weissman score

01:19 <nsh> .wik Weissman score

01:19 <yoleaux> "Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, on HBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley_(TV_series)

01:20 <nsh> dgenr8, gobbledegook metric?

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01:36 <phantomcircuit> nsh, still generating the 8192 bit primes

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01:41 <nsh> hehe

01:41 <nsh> phantomcircuit, using openssl, or?

01:43 <phantomcircuit> yeah

01:44 <phantomcircuit> 105:31.00

01:44 <phantomcircuit> dat cpu time

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01:57 <moa> phantomcircuit: primecoin`

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02:13 <phantomcircuit> moa, DH safe prime generator

02:14 <moa> sounds like a new mining algo for yet another alt

02:15 <moa> suitably half-baked too

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02:18 <phantomcircuit> moa, openssl gendh 8192

02:21 <moa> Generating DH parameters, 8192 bit long safe prime, generator 2

02:21 <moa> This is going to take a long time

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02:32 * nsh wonders why, if all generators are provably equivalent, there are two conventional ones

02:32 <nsh> (2, and 5)

02:32 <nsh> and how they were selected

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03:20 <phantomcircuit> nsh, still running

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06:55 <phantomcircuit> nsh, real396m55.804s

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06:55 <phantomcircuit> http://0bin.net/paste/Vk0K0uN31ZA43QCd#wSKKTU2bWLkcJIRaKysjkBqANNe58ssc5zzQ782wf2Q

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08:13 <stonecoldpat> CoinMuncher: from what you said yesterday, IIRC there is some work here http://www.jbonneau.com/doc/BFGKN14-bitcoin_bribery.pdf that is a varaint of what you spoke about - so you said that you want to convince a miner by putting your own money on the line that a header is valid - instead this paper tries to "bribe" other miners to build on a block by sending them bitcoins in a block,

08:13 <stonecoldpat> so no its not "bullocks" what your thinking :P

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08:46 <CoinMuncher> yoohoo! :)

08:46 <CoinMuncher> stonecoldpat: thanks dude. Was just trying to read back the logs.

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08:48 <CoinMuncher> I was just trying to come up with weird things you can do with transactions/mining and then think of an application for which it might be useful. Logically it's sort of the wrong way around, but I guess one might stumble upon something. On the other hand I'm sure thousands have gone before me.

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17:28 <dgenr8> phantomcircuit: 4096 for me is 27m real. what's your processor?

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17:30 <dgenr8> this is Intel i7 4770 @3.4GHz

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22:38 <phantomcircuit> dgenr8, i7-4700MQ

22:38 <phantomcircuit> the secret is to be running havege so you dont get stalls waiting for entropy

22:38 <phantomcircuit> note: that might mean the parameters aren't entirely random... but it doesn't matter!

22:38 <phantomcircuit> im sure it would be faster on my 4790K

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23:05 <nsh> phantomcircuit, is havege using any hardware sources?

23:05 <nsh> not sure i understand what you mean by some parameters not being entirely random

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23:09 <gmaxwell> no one but intel knows.

23:09 <gmaxwell> http://www.chronox.de/jent/doc/CPU-Jitter-NPTRNG.html has a writeup related to that approach (though not specific to the havege code)

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23:11 <gmaxwell> basically there is some argument that there exists physical noise sources in cpu timing, mostly from the interactions of the different clock domains between the cpu and memory (PLL jitter). There is also a whole lot of 'seeming randomness' that is probably just properties of the microarchitecture and are not actually random.

23:12 <nsh> i recall dankami harking about this a fair bit last year

23:12 <nsh> i paraphrased some poetry for him: all these random bits we pick, are but the tocks within the tick

23:13 <gmaxwell> Its tricky. If your CPU and memory are driven off a straight up divider circut on a common clock then there may be basically zero entropy there; but all the bogus 'randomness' means that these measures will still look random, so you can't tell when they're useless.

23:15 <gmaxwell> beating two oscillators against each other is a reasonable hardware source of entropy, ... except for the fact that most oscillators are highly vulnerable to injection locking; which can cause it to fail to produce much entropy.

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23:16 <gmaxwell> (there is some nice demos of defeating smartcard RNGs by just using a radio transmitter (e.g. a microwave oven magnatron) to injection lock their ring-oscillator based RNGs and make them put out a regular pattern.)

23:20 <moa> resonance ruined randomness

23:22 * dgenr8 had no idea havege existed. very neat

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23:32 <nsh> .wik Injection locking

23:32 <yoleaux> "Injection locking and injection pulling are the frequency effects that can occur when a harmonic oscillator is disturbed by a second oscillator operating at a nearby frequency." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_locking

23:32 <nsh> neat

23:32 <nsh> moa, "resonance ruined randomness" is a good album title for post-modernist cyperpunk ambient music or something

23:32 <nsh> i assume that's a genre; everything's a genre

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23:35 <moa> ordo ad chaos

23:35 <moa> ordo ab chaos

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23:56 <nsh> .t https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/32tcym/i_see_the_future_laseretching_the_blockchain_on/

23:56 <yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name.

23:56 <nsh> .title https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/32tcym/i_see_the_future_laseretching_the_blockchain_on/

23:56 <yoleaux> I see the future. Laser-etching the blockchain on the surface of the moon. It would be visible to everyone with a telescope. No internet needed. : Bitcoin

23:56 <nsh> --

23:56 <nsh> <xentrac> So it turns out that the surface of the moon has space for several hundred petabytes of information encoded at a one-millimeter resolution that could be read from practically-sized terrestrial instruments.

23:56 <nsh> <xentrac> And laser-printing on the moon should require less than a watt of power.

23:56 <nsh> <xentrac> From Earth.

23:57 <nsh> -- i am skeptical re the spacial resolution maths, and how you'd actually cause a visible reaction without any oxidising agents using laser power

23:57 <moa> send buzz up there to play golf on it

23:57 * nsh smiles

23:57 <moa> mess up your balance

23:58 <Taek> I was never comfortable with moon math

23:58 * Taek ducks

23:58 <moa> a distance time source for timestamping is a thought but you need and incorruptible mechanism for everybody to interpret it ...

23:59 <nsh> .wa distance to moon from earth

23:59 <yoleaux> Moon: distance from Earth: Current result: 390139 km (kilometers); Unit conversions: 242421 miles; 3.901×10⁸ meters; Comparison as distance: ~1.01 × mean Moon-Earth distance (3.85×10⁸ m); Corresponding quantities: Light travel time t in vacuum from t = x/c:: 1.3 seconds; Light travel time t in an optical fiber t = 1.48x/c:: 1.9 seconds

23:59 <moa> what's that in AUs?