sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<pero>
99.8% synced and getting killed
<pero>
come on
<pero>
oops wrong chan
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<moli>
lol :P
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<eggcoin>
hello, i had an encrypted wallet in my encrypted home directory. i reformated. but didnt format my home directory, i did change my password though. will i be able to retrieve themm
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<fluffypony>
eggcoin: #bitcoin
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<fluffypony>
moli: I also thought that for a second
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<kanzure>
bsm1175321: andytoshi has been working on some of the math and i think he'll be giving a presentation at scalingbitcoin.org in a few weeks, although i don't know about his plans for an implementation
<bsm1175321>
Scaling Bitcoin sold out. :-( I might not be going...
<kanzure>
physical attendance might not be necessary
<sipa>
bsm1175321: send in a proposal, i'm sure there are tickets for speakers
<kanzure>
yes, more proposals are needed
<kanzure>
in fact, please send two
<kanzure>
or more
<kanzure>
send 1<=x<=3 sentences to proposals@scalingbitcoin.org
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<bsm1175321>
Heh Ok!
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<bsm1175321>
I've got the consensus rules worked out for braids, and adding a simple transaction system would be next for a testnet. Braided Mimblewimble seems like a good testnet idea and I think I can do it in less than a month.
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<andytoshi>
bsm1175321: i'm also screwing around with MW consensus rules, but i don't have anything on github because it's still at the "rewrite half the code every other day" stage of development
<andytoshi>
but i have some agressive scaling ideas that i don't think will be compatible with braids
<bsm117532>
andytoshi: I hear you.
<bsm117532>
Well I'm looking at making a toy testnet by the time of Scaling in Milan, and I need to add a transaction system...
<bsm117532>
andytoshi: what aggressive scaling ideas? I'm also considering ways to shard the UTXO set...which has nothing to do with braids but I might include anyway...
<andytoshi>
ok, we can cooperate on doing a transaction system, all i had been planning to do was copy the bitcoin transaction graph onto a MW chain
<andytoshi>
a testnet would involve p2p code and stuff, that's a whole nother thing..
<bsm117532>
I've long had an idea involving UTXO set commitments -- when the UTXO set is shareded, miners require proofs that an output is unspent in order to mine a transaction involving part of the UTXO set they're not holding. Unfortunately the best I can come up with is log(n) sized proofs. But I'm thinking of implementing it anyway.
<andytoshi>
how can you make miners require proofs? how do normal validators get these proofs?
<bsm117532>
andytoshi: I want to make the simplest toy testnet I can. My code is all in python.
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<bsm117532>
andytoshi: Each node would need to be connected to enough other nodes to cover the entire UTXO space, and would request proofs from its peers. tit-for-tat proof requests would ensure peers were cooperating and actually holding the parts of the UTXO set they claim to be.
<andytoshi>
oh...i am writing a self-contained C library designed to do nothing but consensus-critical things
<andytoshi>
i think there's almost no overlap between what we're doing :)
<bsm117532>
andytoshi: Yes, that's why I think it may be interesting to include a Mimblewimble tx system in braids. ;-)
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<bsm117532>
(with or without sharding...)
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<andytoshi>
so i'm rereading the braid slides from scaling bitcoin .. it says that multiple parents can have the same txes, as long as they don't conflict
<andytoshi>
but in MW each block only has one tx
<andytoshi>
so the parents will either be identical or they'll conflict
<bsm117532>
As long as parents spend a disjoint subset of the UTXO set, it's fine no?
<bsm117532>
I see your point though. It seems that aspect would need to be changed.
<bsm117532>
MW has no way to tell a duplicate transaction from a double-spend, once they're aggregated the info is lost...
<andytoshi>
yes. so i think this works only if orphans are somehow disjoint from the blocks that orphan them
<instagibbs>
the small MW blocks would reduce the amount of mixing you get
<bsm117532>
Two such blocks, in a braid, would be "compatible" and could be "siblings" (forming a diamond graph)
<andytoshi>
yes, i know how braids work, i just don't see how this would ever happen
<bsm117532>
instagibbs: I think you mean the smaller/faster beads in a braid would reduce the amount of mixing? Yes it would. If you want a slow tx system it's easy to artificially slow down to achieve better privacy.
<andytoshi>
in absense of some sort of partition attack
<instagibbs>
bsm117532, or you could simply aggregate longer before releasing your transaction, but then mining orphans would go up naturally
<bsm117532>
andytoshi: one major advantage is that braids can merge network partitions. Doesn't have to be an attack.
<sipa>
bsm1175321: unless anyone tries to exploit the partition to do a double spend
<bsm117532>
Hmm I see I'm going to have to think harder about the double-spend case with MW...
<sipa>
then you two sides become irreconsilable
<bsm117532>
sipa: yep
<sipa>
i don't think you're actually solving anything, in that case
<bsm117532>
Well, poop.
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<bsm117532>
This notion of allowing duplicate transactions comes from the idea that Bitcoin's p2p layer would be retained and used. A simpler toy testnet could have NO p2p layer.
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