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<maaku>
kallisteiros: the linked paper is just a re-discovery of extension blocks
<kallisteiros>
I haven't looked it up yet, but do you remember why it didn't get accepted? what were the counterarguments?
<maaku>
I think the author's claims are disingenuous. unlike with segwit, non-upgraded clients do not see the extension block UTXO space
<maaku>
I don't believe extension blocks are a useful upgrade path for that reason
<maaku>
it is, essentially, a hard-fork chain with a peg
<maaku>
oh that author is you, sorry :)
<kallisteiros>
yep
<kallisteiros>
so what if they don't see this UTXO space? why should they?
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<maaku>
Ok well let me say then that this is a better, more thorough write up of extension blocks than I've ever seen. There hasn't been a strawman proposal I believe
<kallisteiros>
non-segwit clients don't see the witness data either
<maaku>
So you have made a contribution :)
<kallisteiros>
thanks
<maaku>
But regarding my criticsm: let's say I say "send 2btc to 1Maaku..." and you do so on the extension block, but I haven't upgraded. I won't see it
<maaku>
That can be fixed by encoding classic-vs-extension block in the address, but the general problem remains
<maaku>
You can't have a transaction that spans both
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<kallisteiros>
if you haven't upgraded, you won't give me a superspace address (which is either a bech32 like in SegWit or a P2SH starting with 3, but not 1Maaku)
<kallisteiros>
to send bitcoins to
<kallisteiros>
oh i see what you mean
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<kallisteiros>
right, I guess addresses in superspace need to have a different format
<kallisteiros>
maybe a different checksum algo that will tell the legacy software it's an invalid address, but okay with upgraded software
<kallisteiros>
or something
<maaku>
Right, it can be worked around with proper payment protocol (by which I include address formats) support.
<kallisteiros>
fair point
<maaku>
But it does fall short of an ideal in which any bitcoin utxo can be spent along side another utxo
<maaku>
Now I think we may have to go down that route. Explicit opt-in sharding (segregation of the utxo space) allows scaling without affecting centralization pressures other than validator resources
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<maaku>
But we should recognize that non-extension-block / non-sharding scaling has a direct benefit as well, in that you can have more UTXOs that can be co-spent in the same transaction
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<maaku>
Which is necessary sometimes for smart contracting purposes, when you want to make sure that a transaction is invalidated if either one of the inputs is spent
<kallisteiros>
actually, spending a normal utxo in the same superspace block and vice versa is possible, I just chose in this version of writeup to restrict that to avoid additional headache. like controlling that there's no double spends and such
<kallisteiros>
if that's what you're talking about
<kallisteiros>
but it's not a must
<kallisteiros>
could be done, I believe
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<maaku>
kallisteiros: you have a mechanism for doing so in a bidirectional manner? I've looked at it and concluded that it was not possible
<kallisteiros>
I mean, if the miner's validation software treats it as one big transaction space, it could accept a transaction in the same block. then upgraded nodes would see that this superspace tx's input is normal tx's output in the same block, and all is dandy, the block is valid
<kallisteiros>
and legacy nodes wouldn't care
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<kallisteiros>
but it needs more test cases, such as trying to spend the same output in both worlds at the same time. this is a double spend and should be prevented
<kallisteiros>
same reason I only proposed P2PKH on both sides to move bitcoin betwen spaces. could have had scripts too, like scripts in witness programs in segwit, but it could get messy very fast
<maaku>
I'm not sure what you mean as "accept a transaction in the same block" in order to make other nodes see the spend?
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<kallisteiros>
oh I thought you meant the restriction to start spending outputs from one world in another only from the next block as undesirable
<kallisteiros>
maybe I misunderstood
<kallisteiros>
the legacy nodes wouldn't see the full picture of course
<kallisteiros>
but wouldn't disrupt them either
<maaku>
kallisteiros: Let's say as part of a transaction I contribute an output and you contribute an output too. The intention is that if either one of us spends our outputs, the other is cancelled as well.
<maaku>
er, the operation on the other input is cancelled as well
<maaku>
You can't do that across worlds. You'd need 2 transactions, and one transaction being double-spent wouldn't invalidate the other
<maaku>
You could fix that by adding in lock-times and hash preimages, but now a single transfer requires 2 linked transactions which is inefficient
<kallisteiros>
sorry, could you give an example on how it's achievable right now in the same space?
<maaku>
kallisteiros: single transaction, you and I both contribute inputs. it can be invalidated by either one of us by double-spending our input.
<kallisteiros>
right. so in the context of proposal, it would be two inputs from both worlds?
<maaku>
this is typically the setup for a funding transaction for a smart contract
<maaku>
right, i happen to have my inputs on shard A, and you have your inputs on shard B
<kallisteiros>
trying to wrap my head around it. I know the invalidation part can be enforced by miners, but trying to come up with a format to reference two outputs from both worlds, and one of them is just a simple P2PKH output, not a superspace P2SH
<maaku>
it is pre-segwit, but otherwise still relevant. written by @kanzure who is around here.
<kallisteiros>
no idea yet
<maaku>
hrm. i was going to point out that the "classic" tx (for lack of a better term) would have to reference the UTXOs of the extension block, which fundamentally limits how much extension this can provide
<maaku>
but this could be reduced to one hash per tx, or even sign-to-contract to remove any extra data
<kallisteiros>
do you think segwit can do this though?
<maaku>
You mean hide this data the same way as segwit does? Sortof.
<maaku>
The connection has to be covered by the signature in some way. Either as a hash in an output, for example, or sign-to-contract.
<kallisteiros>
yeah that's what I was thinking. anyway, will need to think it through and add there, thanks for the food for thought
<kallisteiros>
right now it's a bit restricted in terms of what it can do
<maaku>
Both are messy solutions though, and not something I'd be happy about.
<kallisteiros>
right
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<maaku>
The hash-in-output thing doesn't work well with sighash modes other than ALL, and sign-to-contract is way too useful a primitive to "waste" on this, and would require negative proofs for other transactions which is a non-starter.
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<maaku>
I said this privately to kallisteiros, but to anyone lurking my comment of "the linked paper is just a re-discovery of extension blocks" was meant to point kallisteiros towards previous discussion, and not meant as dismissive
<maaku>
I hope this channel is welcoming to all newcomers and their ideas.
<kallisteiros>
it's all good :-)
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<kanzure>
kallisteiros: here are some references on extension blocks,