sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<elichai2>
in taproot the order of the scripts isn't deterministic, right? so in order to reconstruct a taproot address you need to have all the leafs and the right order of them
<sipa>
not the exact same order, but you do need a compatible structure
<sipa>
(because the two branches are sorted before hashes in the merkle nodes, certain swaps don't affect the final hash)
<sipa>
also not all leaves need to be at the same height
<elichai2>
yeah, so we order 2 branches when we're hashing but in order to "import" a taproot address you need to give it an exact tree of scripts
<elichai2>
I'm trying to figure out if there's a nicer way to represent the whole taproot tree as a wallet
<sipa>
we'll find some way to encode it in a descriptor
<aj>
(you don't need to have all the leafs, you could just have your leaf and the merkle path)
<sipa>
that's also true
<elichai2>
aj: the problem with that is that this means you trust the source of the address
<sipa>
though in order to reason about the possibilities an address offers, you'll likely want to see the whole thing
<elichai2>
outside of PSBT you shouldn't pass only a path
<elichai2>
exactly
<sipa>
elichai2: are you familiar with the output descriptor language bitcoin core uses?
<ltholt2580>
Hey can someone answer a question about the nature of UTXO transfers for me?
<elichai2>
this needs to be figured out there too, does descriptors have anything to do with PSBT?
<sipa>
elichai2: eh yes and no
<sipa>
psbt is more machine readable, redundant, and flexible
<sipa>
it's "this hash comes from this script, this pubkey has this derivation path, ..."
<sipa>
descriptors are engineer-readable, concise, and put all information in a single string
<sipa>
the difference is that descriptors can be implementation specific
<sipa>
you don't necessarily need all participants in a contract to all use descriptors
<elichai2>
and they're more like explanatory pointers, right? (like they would contain the redeemScript but not the scriptPubKey)
<sipa>
hmm?
<sipa>
descriptors don't contain any script, they describe them :)
<sipa>
oh you mean psbt? yeah, the spk is in the utxo data anyway
<elichai2>
yeah but they describe just the redeemScript right? not the script in the output
<sipa>
yes they do
<sipa>
descriptors are literally a language to describe scriptPubKeys :)
<elichai2>
psbt should contain everything so that the signer can sign *and know* what he signs on
<sipa>
right
<elichai2>
but a p2sh multi descriptors will look like `sh(multi(2, KEY, KEY, KEY))` it won't have "HASH160 xxx"
<sipa>
right
<sipa>
but the sh function implies a scriptPubKey with a HASH160 opcode
<sipa>
so the information is there
<elichai2>
ha, right, so if the scriptPubKey contains something weird it will be represented as `raw`?
<sipa>
uh, yes
<sipa>
but that won't be a functionally complete descriptor
<sipa>
and raw is also only usable at the top level
<elichai2>
so the psbt one should be easier to solve, because you basically need just 1 string which is the taproot path and the script at that leaf, you do not need to encode the whole tree
<elichai2>
thanks :) makes sense
<sipa>
for psbt taproot i think we'll just have records "this point is derived from this inner key + this merkle path + this script / leaf version"
<sipa>
and probably also musig records "this key is derived from this list of constituent keys"
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<sipa>
(and then for those constituent keys the derivation path etc may be specified)
<elichai2>
right. and you also need to standardize the ordering of the keys for the coeffiecient for that. but that's easy
<sipa>
hmm?
<elichai2>
(you can just assume lexographic ordering)
<sipa>
oh for musig, yeah
<elichai2>
yeah
<sipa>
order specified order; unsure
<sipa>
you can see musig as operating on a list of keys in which order matters
<sipa>
i think that's easier actually
<sipa>
but it's conceptually simpler to make it work on a (multi)set of keys
<elichai2>
oh you're saying that you should just keep the keys always ordered even in the psbt etc.
<ltholt2580>
hey for a transaction requiring the transfer of multiple UTXOs to a wallet, are the UTXOs concatenated in transit to the destination wallet or kept separate? When they arrive, is each UTXO still attached to an individual private key?
<elichai2>
that will make it more versatile
<sipa>
elichai2: depends how we choose to standardize musig for use in bitcoin itself
<elichai2>
ltholt2580: are you talking about any specific wallet?
<sipa>
ltholt2580: your question doesn't really make sense
<ltholt2580>
nope nothing specific
<ltholt2580>
why doesnt it make sense?
<sipa>
utxos don't have private keys
<sipa>
they're just coins
<elichai2>
sipa: I think it's mostly standardized in your paper but yeah there are some small details (i.e. if you tag the hash or use special ordering)
<ltholt2580>
UTXO ownership is through association to a key pair no?
<elichai2>
ltholt2580: every UTXO can have his own key, or even multiple keys(multi sig), or whatever script you wrote
<sipa>
ltholt2580: probably better to read up on bitcoin transaction basics on bitcoin.org, or ask questions on bitcoin.stackexchange.com
<ltholt2580>
I've been doing as much, but I can't find an answer for this
<sipa>
ltholt2580: yeah, authentication for spending is done through the script system; every utxo has an associated locking script (called the scriptPubKey)
<sipa>
to use coins, you provide inputs that satisfy the locking script for the coin you want to use
<sipa>
and in transit, a transaction is a transaction, with one or more outputs
<sipa>
they don't become separate things ever
<sipa>
but the outputs can be spent independently
<ltholt2580>
So if I have 5 bitcoins across 3 UTXOs, and I want to send 3 bitcoins, my wallet will transfer ownership of two of the UTXOs and create a change adress for whatever overflow there is. The two UTXOs that are being transferred, are they going to end up associated with a single private key from the payee, or will each UTXO be associated to a different
<ltholt2580>
payee private key?
<sipa>
the payee doesn't care about what your utxos were that you needed to fund the transaction
<sipa>
only about the utxos you're creating that are assigned to him
<ltholt2580>
so im concatenating my UTXOs into one UTXO, which is then transferred to the payee?
<sipa>
a transaction consumes 1 or more UTXO, and creates 1 or more UTXO
<sipa>
the difference in value between the inputs and the outputs is the fee
<sipa>
there is no distinct "concatenation" or "splitting" or "transferring"
<sipa>
a tx just consumes UTXOs (by proving they have the necessary conditions to spend, typically using ECDSA signatures), and creating new UTXOs assigned to arbitrary other (or the same) conditions
<ltholt2580>
when the transaction creates more than one UTXO for a single payee, are all the UTXOs signed for with the same private key?
<sipa>
you don't sign outputs, you sign transactions
<sipa>
and you sign the transaction independently for each input that participates
<sipa>
if you have two UTXOs A and B, with their respective keys
<sipa>
and you create 3 new UTXOs, with keys C,D,E
<sipa>
then the transaction will contain 2 signatures (one with A, one with B), and both signature (conceptually) sign the entire message (which contains references to the two UTXOs being spent, and the 3 UTXOs being created)
<sipa>
the signature essentially conveys "I, owner of private key corresponding to A, approve of the spending of UTXOs A and B in order to create new UTXOs with values x, y, z, with respective locking scripts C, D, E". And B signs a similar message
<sipa>
if both signatures are not valid, the transaction is invalid and no transfer occurs at all
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<ltholt2580>
so are multiple UTXOs sent in a single transaction, or is each one effectively sent in a separate transaction?
<sipa>
that's up to the author of the tx
<sipa>
a single transaction consumes 1 or more utxo, and creates 1 or more utxo
<sipa>
that's all
<ltholt2580>
for a basic transaction
<ltholt2580>
pay to pubkey hash
<sipa>
this has nothing to do with that
<sipa>
p2pkh is a type of output
<sipa>
not a type of transaction
<sipa>
(there are no types of transactions really, it's just things that consume and create utxos)
<sipa>
a business which likes to minimize their fees will likely perform multiple payments in one transaction (called batching)
<sipa>
consumer wallets will generally just let you create a single payment per tx (but that may still mean more than 1 output, due to change)
<ltholt2580>
so when you say that a single trnascation creates 1 or more UTXO, do you mean the UTXO representing the BTC that was signed off to the payee and the UTXO that represents the change that needs to be created?
<sipa>
say i have 3 UTXOs, each of 0.1 BTC
<sipa>
on 3 distinct addresses (so 3 distinct keys necessary to sign)
<sipa>
and i want to pay you 0.25 BTC
<sipa>
then my wallet will create 1 single transaction with 3 inputs (each referring to a specific 0.1 BTC utxo) and 2 outputs (one 0.25 BTC one to you, and one 0.05 BTC to a different address of myself0
<sipa>
2 UTXOs are createed by this tx; one owned by you, one owned by me
<sipa>
this transaction contains 3 signatures, all of which sign the entire thing
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<ltholt2580>
alright, now I have the answers I was lookin for
<ltholt2580>
thanks a bunch man this really helped
<ltholt2580>
oh wait one last thing, that UTXO that I own after that transaction, is it assigned to a private key I already have?
<sipa>
your wallet creates it itself
<ltholt2580>
so the UTXO gets a new private key and public key?
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<sipa>
it would be pretty stupid software if it would send it to a key that does not correspond to a key you already have
<sipa>
as you wouldn't be able to use it otherwise
<sipa>
usually wallets generate new keys on the fly all the time for this
<sipa>
in a deterministic fashion, so that a recovery from backup with generate the same keys
<sipa>
*will generate
<ltholt2580>
I'm not talking about the change UTXO here, i mean that as the recipient, the UTXO created by the transaction for me is now associated with th eprivate key of my address in the transaction?
<sipa>
so the steps usually are:
<sipa>
1) recipient creates a new key
<sipa>
2) recipient computes address for that new key
<sipa>
3) recipient gives that address to the sender
<sipa>
4) sender constructs a transaction to that address (and to change for himself)
<sipa>
5) sender broadcasts transaction to the network, so that the recipient and miners can see it, who will include it in a block
<sipa>
what address things are sent to is decided by the receiver, not the sender
<sipa>
so if the receiver gives out the same address for multiple payments, there will be multiple UTXOs to that same address (though this is generally discouraged practice for privacy reasons)
<ltholt2580>
does the receiver HAVE to create a new key?
<ltholt2580>
^nvm
<ltholt2580>
so if there's multiple UTXOs to that same address, they're all attached to the same private key
<sipa>
that's a way of looking at it, yes
<sipa>
but it's not like utxos are indexed or adressed by their key
<sipa>
they're just utxos that happen to be unlockable with the same key
<ltholt2580>
so then you could send multiple UTXOs by signing with the same key?
<sipa>
yes, but you'd still need independent signatures for each
<sipa>
because transactions just list "these are UTXOs i'm spending, and here is a signature for each"
<ltholt2580>
now I get it
<ltholt2580>
this seriously has been majorly helpful man, thanks again
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