sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<gleb>
Would there be any interest in a multiparty protocol between DNS seeds to create short aggregate signatures for dns records?
<gleb>
Then a node can talk to just one seed but get security of N. Also having signatures might help to enforce proper randomization in this case.
<gleb>
I guess it can solve a problem of bandwidth consumption by DNS seeds as well as allow to rely on N instead of relying on 5 or whatever it is (more for bandwidth cost). Not sure how interesting are those problems :)
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<vfP56jSe>
gleb: What is N in this case? N < 5?
<gleb>
vfP56jSe: it can definitely be more than 5 if needed.
<vfP56jSe>
So the set of signers doesn't need to be correlated with set of dns seed operators?
<gleb>
I meant, if there are 20 dns seeds, you can still combine 20 into 1 signature and get security of 20 for the cost of 1.
<gleb>
I don't think there is a value in signing by regular nodes (unless there is something crazy like PoW involved)
<vfP56jSe>
gleb: I see, you're talking about bandwidth/verification cost at the time of query?
<gleb>
Sort of. Right now there is a clear function: if you want more security (not relying on 1-3 DNS), ask more seeds (spend more bandwidth, put more load on them). By asking more you also leak information at the same time...
<vfP56jSe>
gleb: Okay, so instead of that, with a new multiparty protocol, you'd query one node and be able to verify that all nodes signed, and be able to rely on that answer more than if it was an unsigned response from one node
<sipa>
gleb: we don't really have a way to encode signatures in dns results even
<sipa>
do you have an encoding in mind?
<vfP56jSe>
sipa: TXT record?
<sipa>
that doesn't get passed through dns resolvers
<sipa>
afaik
<sipa>
so we'd need explicit dns client support to support that
<sipa>
and if we do that, we may as well switch to a custom simpler protocol
<vfP56jSe>
sipa: That's true. But I think Bitcoin Core is also trying to support Torv3 and others, which don't fit in IPv6, so perhaps custom protocol will be needed regardless
<sipa>
that's fair
<vfP56jSe>
gleb: I'm not too familiar with multiparty signature protocols, any specific one you have in mind I can google?
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<gleb>
sipa: I was just thinking high-level, is it even worth looking at those problems, because DNS seems like an unsolvable distributed systems flaw :)
<sipa>
gleb: DNS has many flaws, but also one great advantage: it is massiveoy adopted and cached everywhere
<gleb>
vfP56jSe: I don't have anything which already exists in mind. Just a p2p protocol for DNS seeds to exchange BLS signatures or whatnot for the records.
<gleb>
sipa: Right, so maybe not really worth touching it unless we re-implement the whole thing for some serious reason.
<sipa>
yes, that's my idea
<vfP56jSe>
I think it'll be worthwhile after more listening nodes get on Torv3
<vfP56jSe>
Lots of "pre-made" node companies will definitely jump on that, since they already do Torv2 for NAT-punching AFAIK
<gleb>
sipa: can you look up how much bandwidth your seed consumes?
<sipa>
gleb: almost all the bandwidth is in crawling
<sipa>
by orders of magnitude
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<sipa>
it recieves a DNS requests per second
<sipa>
* la few
<sipa>
* a few
<gleb>
okay, good to know
<sipa>
around 3 DNS requests per second, currently
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