#bitcoin-wizards on 2019-12-12 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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00:44 <ZmnSCPxj> If I needed a blind signing scheme for bearer signatures, what would be best and why? Also it seems Schnorr blind signing is vulnerable to Wagner attacks, can anyone point to some convenient treatise on such?

00:48 <sipa> ZmnSCPxj: have you seen https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/877?

00:52 <ZmnSCPxj> thank you, thus you would suggest the use of Schnorr blind signing, suitably modified as per this paper?

00:53 <sipa> i'm probably not the best person to ask, but it sounds like that paper gives a pretty convincing argument that with that modification they're actually secure

00:54 <sipa> using AGM in the proof is unusual, but imho it's not a crazy model

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01:29 <ZmnSCPxj> I observe that Wasabi claims to use Schnorr blind signing to implement bearer signatures, I have not seen their actual code or checked their protocol in detail however.

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01:30 <ZmnSCPxj> My understanding of the above paper, is essentially the client and (signing) server, run two signing sessions in parallel, but the server provides `s` for only one and drops the other, is that a fair restatement?

01:38 <sipa> I haven't actually read the paper.

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01:40 <gmaxwell> just doing two is likely not enough.

01:40 <gmaxwell> you only need a couple parallel sessions to really reduce the security a lot, so you could just guess which one the servers goingt choose and get it right with reasonable odds.

01:41 <gmaxwell> like say you need only 4 parallel signatures to get to 2^64 attack work... well you've got 1:16 chance to just guess which ones the server will pick.

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01:44 <ZmnSCPxj> I see.

01:45 <gmaxwell> so I think to defend against a 4-way attack you'll want something like 128/4 signatures per signature.

01:46 <ZmnSCPxj> 32 sub-sessions per single produced blinded signature?

01:54 <ZmnSCPxj> Or 2^32?

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01:55 <ZmnSCPxj> I believe I have seen text before which suggests andytoshi was conjecturing that 128 sub-sessions per single produced blinded signature would be enough.

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02:21 <gmaxwell> ah ignore my bad math, 128 per does make more sense. you really want (say) (1/n)^4 to be ~= 1/2^128

02:37 <ZmnSCPxj> 128 == 2^7, and 128^4 is only 2^28. Maybe it considers the added work *on top of* the 2^64 work as well?

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09:41 <nickler> By my own estimation for 120+ bits of security the number of parallel sessions should be around 512 (but I did that was before the paper was published, perhaps they arrive at more accurate numbers) https://gist.github.com/jonasnick/28836e8754870d938ea838cd2323bdd8

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09:42 <nickler> Afaik Wasabi uses the naive, Wagnerable version but they're saying forgery would not allow for more than DoS-ing a round.

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