sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<CubicEarth>
regarding the importance of nodes... for years I've contemplated the meaningfulness, or lack thereof, of a someone running a full node who doesn't really understand what is going on
<CubicEarth>
For the person who wants to use Bitcoin, but isn't interested in *why* or *how* it is special, any sort of verification will just seem like a drawback to them
<CubicEarth>
(heat, time, battery life, bandwidth)
<CubicEarth>
And if someone does't care at all, they won't be building from source, won't be checking the binary hashes or signatures, and certainly won't be reviewing the code base
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<CubicEarth>
I would guess at least 95% of people would exhibit all three of those behaviors
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<CubicEarth>
I'm thinking through the rational behind the goal to have "most" users running full nodes. That seems to inform the drive to push node resource usage as low as possible. I think we all understand the compromises that are made for that end
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<CubicEarth>
If someone isn't going to at least verify the hash of binaries, they are outsourcing so much trust... I can't see the value for them of their software then proceeding with an ibd and sync
<CubicEarth>
The fact that it is possible to verify and run a full node (itself a verifier) is absolutely central to Bitcoin...
<CubicEarth>
But I question is there is any value to the concept of having disinterested people run them
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<CubicEarth>
It is true that the less resources it takes to run a node, the more people will run them, but so what?
<CubicEarth>
The first energy barrier that needs to be crossed is someone caring, and then learning enough to know what it is that their node is actually doing!
<CubicEarth>
The second hurdle is the person being willing to dedicate enough money and computer resources to verify the blockchain they are interested in
<CubicEarth>
I am advocating keeping in mind that there is a meaningful relationship between these two barriers
<CubicEarth>
Like this: suppose though lots of work and other tradeoffs, we make the cost running a node $1. Everyone can afford to run one, but as I suggested before, it's completely meaningless for most
<CubicEarth>
For people who invested the time and focus to care and understand what they are doing, it's still $1, so that's nice. But first I'd like to suggest there is monetary equivalent to there effort in learning the nuts and bolts of Bitcoin
<CubicEarth>
(the most naive concept would be hours-spent x hourly-wage)
<CubicEarth>
And secondly, for the people who were willing to invest that time and energy to learn... how much would they be willing to spend on their node, now that they understand the significance?
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<CubicEarth>
I'll suggest 1) the person who can understand the concept of Bitcoin will have more resources than the average person, and 2) their have already invested significant time and attention to learning
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<esotericnonsense>
CubicEarth: bear in mind that some of the constraints you speak of may not be feasible for an individual to change regardless of budget
<esotericnonsense>
at least within reason. let's say for example you have some theoretical coin which requires 50mbit upload. i can
<esotericnonsense>
i can't get that without moving house. so it's effectively impossible right.
<CubicEarth>
Agreed
<CubicEarth>
esotericnonsense: But there are diminishing returns from chasing the low end, since a very small number of people are, for example, on 56k modems
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<CubicEarth>
That also seems related to the concept of 'minimum hardware requirements'...
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<bitcoin-wizards2>
is arbitraryscripting worth more than fungibility and scriptless scripts?
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<sipa>
bitcoin-wizards2: ?
<bitcoin-wizards2>
I mean what cant scriptless scripts do that current scripts can do?
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<aj>
bitcoin-wizards2: force revealing a sha256 preimage
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<bitcoin-wizards2>
Is this more valuable than fungibility?
<aj>
*shrug* depends who you ask
<bitcoin-wizards2>
what do you think?
<sipa>
aj: adapter signatures can generally replace hashlocks
<aj>
sipa: only if you're able to switch from sha256 to secp256k1 preimages
<sipa>
sure
<sipa>
but in many cases, assuming you have some protocol freedom, they can serve the same purpoze
<aj>
bitcoin-wizards2: oh, non-interactive multisig is another
<aj>
sipa: yeah. i think most logic (if/else; merkle trees) and timelocks (cltv/csv) can be replaced by transaction chains?
<bitcoin-wizards2>
Will non-interactive multisig still be pissibke after schnorr/taproot?
<sipa>
sure, but you won't get the benefits
<bitcoin-wizards2>
*possible
<sipa>
just use a script that does multiple CHECKSIG operations
<aj>
(you'd get the merkle tree benefits where you could have different conditions but don't have to reveal them; and each CHECKSIG could actually be a scriptless script too)
<sipa>
you also get the smaller sigs (64/65 bytes instead of 72), better sighash, batch verification, ...
<sipa>
just not the key aggregation
<bitcoin-wizards2>
got it
<bitcoin-wizards2>
thoughts on MW as extension block?
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<sipa>
lots
<bitcoin-wizards2>
any testnets running?
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