sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<andytoshi>
tromp_: yeah you do need knowledge of r
<andytoshi>
i don't think this is proved in the BP paper, but i'm confident it's true
<sarang>
andytoshi: wouldn't that simply be a soundness break?
<andytoshi>
no, proof of knowledge of r is much stronger
<andytoshi>
you could imagine if BPs were a zero knowledge proof, but not a zero knowledge proof of knowledge
<sarang>
hmm true
<andytoshi>
(this is not the case - BPs defnitely *do* prove knowledge of the actual values. it's only the blinding factors i'm unsure of)
<andytoshi>
in this hypothetical, you could gin up some pedersen commitments, which you don't know the openings to, and produce a proof that their openings satisfy some predicate
<andytoshi>
and the soundness of the proof only requires this be true
<andytoshi>
not that you know the actual values
<sarang>
right
<sarang>
That's an interesting distinction between the handling of value and mask in the commitment
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<nsh>
it's hard to reason about the conservation of known-entropy of blinding factors through the inner product argument
<nsh>
because clearly there's a reduction of entropy
<nsh>
but that doesn't imply a loss of proof of known-ness
<nsh>
but there ETOOMUCHMAGIC to have a very precise idea of what's going on (for me)
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<andytoshi>
also there is a reply/rebuttal from djb which seems long and unconvincing. it links to an old email which i'm not done yet, which is also long and unconvincing.
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<sipa>
he suggests that standard practice is verifying the signature you just created... which is good advice in any case, for multiple reasons (also against fault attacks)
<sipa>
but of course the whole point is about people who write software not following good practices
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<andytoshi>
yeah, that was good
<andytoshi>
fortunately it was in the first couple paragraphs
<andytoshi>
but then he talks about "normal" eddsa implementations not being vulnerable to this specific attack, then links to a post where he argues against tagging hashes
<sipa>
heh
<andytoshi>
and gives a bizarre example where somebody encodes both "shoot the missiles" and "move the troops" as the bit 1, and says tagged hashes don't help with this confusion
<andytoshi>
and cites the general difficulty of updating PGP implementations to deal with side input to signature generation
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<sipa>
that sounds like a "people will think it gives a false sense of security and then shoot themselves in the foot" argument
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<waxwing>
heh was just reading that and had the same response
<waxwing>
also i don't get the "public key is not part of the signing algo" aspect of his argument, when he himself argued strongly for key prefixing (in the hash part, not the derandomised nonce ofc .. but still?)
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