sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<nehan_>
kanzure: "if a hashrate adversary rewrites old blocks (but not the tip of the blockchain due to hashrate-infeasibility of doing so)" <-- what does this mean? how would one rewrite old blocks without changing tip?
<sipa>
nehan_: i believe he means by not producing enough total work to exceed the tip's
<gmaxwell>
thats how I read it.
<nehan_>
ah. thanks!
<kanzure>
if the tip difficulty drops off like a rock, then the older timestamps definitely become worthless.
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<jeremyrubin>
odd question
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<jeremyrubin>
Suppose I have an output that has 500 satoshis in it and script is "OP_TRUE"
<jeremyrubin>
Can someone spending it with the sequence set to disable RBF block someone else from spending it?
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<sipa>
jeremyrubin: to the extent that lack of bip125 replacability can't be circumvented, yes
<jeremyrubin>
hm
<jeremyrubin>
What would you think about ammending opt-in RBF mempool policy to make OP_TRUE scripts "promiscuous"?
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<jeremyrubin>
(and I suppose making them standard out types)
<jeremyrubin>
For context, OP_TRUEs are somewhat useful for specifying an anyone can spend output for use as a CPFP hook
<sipa>
jeremyrubin: how about making all outputs RBFable instead? ;) *duscks*
<jeremyrubin>
I'd be ok with that too; but trying to simulate the mental state of those who care about opt-in rbf
<jeremyrubin>
Which makes for a difficult exercise ;)
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<gmaxwell>
fun fact, bitcoin-scammer-version is reintroducing the original replacement behavior (replace-by-dos-attack). I guess they finally figured out their suckers are just structurally immune to cognitive dissonance by virtue of not possessing too much capacity for cognition in the first place.
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<gmaxwell>
jeremyrubin: I don't think what you're thinking of works to prevent pinning.
<gmaxwell>
jeremyrubin: I create a that spends that output plus also spends some other output. That txn is non-replacable... now your output is pinned, regardless of your exception.
<jeremyrubin>
I see -- so it would be better to have a longchain contract --> OP_IF <recurse hash, no CSV, add 1 input for gas> CTV OP_ELSE +1 block OP_CSV OP_ENDIG
<gmaxwell>
you'd have to have it make the txn replacable regardless of any other inputs... which would be pretty 'exploitable' (to the extent that you could ever really call unintended replacement a problem)
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<jeremyrubin>
this means that it could expand as much as you want within a block to a replica of itself (e.g., all fee spend) and then after 1 block can be swept
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<jeremyrubin>
I don't love the longchain contract but they're kinda cool from a "anyone can add to CPFP this contract" perspective
<gmaxwell>
dunno to tired for think.
<jeremyrubin>
I beleive it would solve the pinning issue, but is annoying from a chain usage perspective
<jeremyrubin>
Maybe we should make having any replaceable parent convey replaceable to child
<jeremyrubin>
That fixes my issue because I can guarantee the OP_TRUE creating txn is detected "replaceable"
<gmaxwell>
thats how the wallet detection behavior works, but I suspect its racy.
<gmaxwell>
like you look right after the parent confirms, and think the child is not replacable, but some other nodes already replaced it before the parent confirmed.
<jeremyrubin>
Ah I see -- it is indeed racy then
<jeremyrubin>
But then that would imply that my current solution works
<gmaxwell>
wallet detection, not replacement logic.
<jeremyrubin>
Ah misread
<gmaxwell>
the replacement won't let you replace a child just because the parent is replacable, AFAIR. I could be mistaken, but I don't think so.
<gmaxwell>
but the wallet will consider the child replacable so long as the parent is unconfirmed.
<jeremyrubin>
Can you replace the parent?
<gmaxwell>
(for the purpose of telling you that its replacable)
<instagibbs>
jeremyrubin, at relay or wallet layer?
<gmaxwell>
oh I'm mistaken, in fact you can also replace the child. It isn't just a wallet behavior.
<gmaxwell>
(of course, all subject to the replacement fee rules... if the child is bloaty it effectively pins it still)
<jeremyrubin>
instagibbs: relay
<jeremyrubin>
Essentially i have these big OP_CTV trees to do batched payments
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<instagibbs>
bip125 allows up to 100 booted transactions per replacement, IIRC
<jeremyrubin>
So I have two tools i'm working on to make it work "nice".
<instagibbs>
the double-spent txn has to signal support for it tho
<jeremyrubin>
One is to add gas outputs every so often in the tree (for ease of understanding, everywhere)
<jeremyrubin>
a gas output is just something that's above the dust limit and anyone can spend it
<jeremyrubin>
The other tool is sequence locking the tree
<jeremyrubin>
So essentially the gas outputs are able to be spent whenever, but the rest of the tree has to wait
<jeremyrubin>
This allows the gas output to be longchained by the highest bidder to percolate CPFP and confirm the root
<jeremyrubin>
and then the 1 step sequence lock expires (or it expires without spending the gas)
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<jeremyrubin>
This makes for some light pinning prevention, but only if the gas is easily replaced with higher bids.
<jeremyrubin>
If someone were to pin the gas, you'd be a bit screwed
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