sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<M7918070_[m]>
If they pay it out in pool rewards, you get a very strong incentive towards centralization.
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<M7918070_[m]>
Say the attacking pool controls N*100% of the total hashrate, where N > 0.5, and takes a haircut of K*100%.
<belcher>
yes, 51% of miners can censor based on any criteria they want, probably the reason they dont do this is they wouldnt make as much money as they do now (they might earn more bitcoins, but those coins would likely be worth less)
<M7918070_[m]>
Either you join the majority pool coalition, and obtain reward + K(1-N)reward. Or you stay with the minority pool, and get a reward of K*reward.
<kanzure>
belcher: and creates an incentive for defection
<belcher>
merchants and accumulators who run full nodes can do a similar thing: UASF to force the block reward to zero, or even force miners to burn bitcoins in order to create blocks
<M7918070_[m]>
That's a negative externality. It's unlikely that such changes would immediately drop the Bitcoin price by more than 12.5%.
<M7918070_[m]>
kanzure: No, the incentive is on the opposing miners to defect
<belcher>
once this censoring group gets above 50% isnt the incentive for all other miners to join in?
<belcher>
M7918070_[m] idk, the bitcoin price seems like it moves 12.5% all the time
<M7918070_[m]>
for bitcoin rewards take 200 blocks to mature, so ~1.4 days
<M7918070_[m]>
90-day high for vol is 80%
<M7918070_[m]>
1*.8*sqrt(1.4/365) = 0.05
<M7918070_[m]>
so it's a 5 sigma move
<M7918070_[m]>
quite a big one in other words
<M7918070_[m]>
Also, it's trivial to hedge against, just go on any exchange and sell a bunch of future contracts right before you annoince it.
<M7918070_[m]>
It doesn't seem like BCH fell on the news of the haircut. Or did it?
<belcher>
another way it could be resisted is by transactors paying higher miner fees
<belcher>
users without the 12.5% extra output will notice their transactions wont get confirmed, so they'll fee-bump, and once that fee gets above 12.5% then the non-haircut miners eventually win
<belcher>
oh wait you said the haircut comes from the block reward, not transaction fees... hmm
<M7918070_[m]>
No, they don't censor transactions. Users have zero incentive to care.
<M7918070_[m]>
From the PoV of an user, the only change is that the hashrate might go down. Although I'm not even sure it should
<M7918070_[m]>
The non-cartel miners will draw less profits, thus decrease their hashrate.
<M7918070_[m]>
But the cartel miners will draw more profits, thus increasing their hashrate
<M7918070_[m]>
In fact, it seems like it's even funnier. If the cartel control 51%, perhaps it makes sense with a 1% haircut, but wanting something insane like 50% would probably not fly.
<M7918070_[m]>
But if they're 99%, what are the minority gonna do? Sue them for antitrust violations?
<M7918070_[m]>
In other words, it seems like the only stable equilibrium is for the cartel to control 100%. This can either happen by miners defecting, or by pools defecting without asking their miners.
<M7918070_[m]>
(Pools have an incentive to do this because of fees)
<M7918070_[m]>
Anyone?
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<gmaxwell>
I wonder if listening nodes who are getting incoming connections should randomly query dnsseeds to keep upstream caches primed, but throwing out the results (or comparing to their addrman, logging if there are a bunch of results they don't now about, then throwing away the results). Those nodes are already not anonymous by virtue of sucessfully listening, so they don't gain anything by trying
<gmaxwell>
to hide that they exist.
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<M7918070_[m]>
hey gmaxwell do you think the BCH attack is a threat for Bitcoin too?
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<gleb>
gmaxwell: the problem it would solve is that private nodes will hit dns servers less, right?
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<dell__>
hi someone is bussy stealing my bitcoins in blockchain im really tired of this i came here to ask advice\
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<gmaxwell>
gleb: yes. It would help hide private nodes from the dnsseeds.
<sipa>
gmaxwell: interesting, and very easy to do
<gleb>
Yeah, except, how you detect that you’re a listening node. Inbound > 1? Maybe it’s fine for this use case...
<gmaxwell>
it would also make you more likely to catch misbehaving dnsseeds or eclipse attacks, if the extra step of comparing the results to addrman and logging were taken.
<gmaxwell>
inbound >1 from a public ipaddress. Obviously discover=0 would turn the behavior off.
<gmaxwell>
I dunno what typical dnsseed ttls are, hopefully fairly long... ideally it would run once per ttl.
<gleb>
Concept ack :)
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<gmaxwell>
it was just something that occured to me while I was correcting someone on bitcointalk that said that IRC based node introduction was more decenteralized than dnsseeds.
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<jonatack>
gmaxwell: interesting indeed
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