sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bitcoin-wizards4>
jeremyrubin: CTV supports schemes with unconstrained data availability attack vectors. Zk rollup implementations like Zk Sync only requires proofs to be kept off-chain for a few block confirmations, which in practice does not violate on-chain security assumptions.
<gleb>
real_or_random: wow, I thought it's supposed to be easy to port C to C#, because they even use the same letter for their language.
<gleb>
Apart from that, I'd say that you're one of the few people I would trust most with judging re-writing crypto implementation from scratch. Does it mean that it actually makes sense in practice (I'd be surprised and sort of agree with jonas' arguments in the thread), or you just being nice? :)
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<jeremyrubin>
bitcoin-wizards4: I appreciate your desire for anonymity; but I'm not going to attack you for having an opinion? It makes it a bit difficult to have a discussion if you pop in then pop out a minute later. Is there a better forum to discuss with you?
<jeremyrubin>
I don't think in Bitcoin we can prune the signature data after just a flew block confirmations.
<jeremyrubin>
All of the data availability issues for CTV would be the same in a ZK scheme, especially if it's off-chain.
<jeremyrubin>
I'm excited about the ZK rollup stuff, it seems cool! But I don't think it's a replacement for CTV. Different assumptions, different costs.
<jeremyrubin>
Remember, the overhead for N payments in CTV world is just a constant factor, no matter the tree structure (within reason). Linked list? constant factor.
<jeremyrubin>
Radix R Tree? 1/(1-1/r) constant factor
<jeremyrubin>
Fundamentally if a ZK Rollup is paying N people, it's also going to be a constant factor
<jeremyrubin>
But ZKPs are generally bigger or more expensive to validate than hashes
<jeremyrubin>
Plus you use TXID non malleability, which hinders non-interactivity & privacy for sub-channel protocols...
<jeremyrubin>
+ with CTV, you can open up non interactive multi-party channels, so most of the stuff can be offline assuming a future interaction.
<jeremyrubin>
Can you explain the benefits of ZK Rollup in that context?
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<elichai2>
gleb: real_or_random in my humble opinion is a bad idea for 2 reasons: 1. Writing a good side-channel resistent crypto is almost impossible, libsecp does the best possible effort, but that requires deep understanding of the language you're writing in (as in what operation emits what instruction, and what can the optimizer break). 2. this is even harder in a garbage collected language, or a language that has a
<elichai2>
JIT/VM. I'd always do the best to stay with bindings to C
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<bitcoin-wizards6>
jeremyrubin: Appreciate the feedback. To be clear, zkSync only requires a secret key to spend. CTV scaling requires secret key + extra data. If extra data off-chain is destroyed, spend is impossible?
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<jonatack>
elichai2: +1
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<jeremyrubin>
bitcoin-wizards6: zkSync must require more than just a key or I'm missing something
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<jeremyrubin>
Doesn't the Rollup validator have to store the previous state?
<jeremyrubin>
How do you peg-in to a zkSync and peg-out?
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<jeremyrubin>
There must be some transaction in and out
<jeremyrubin>
so CTV is the setup for a transaction "in", and it's non interactive. But then w.r.t. state updates you can do them via HTLC like contracts
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<bitcoin-wizards8>
From a data availability perspective, only a secret key is required to spend. Validity proofs are published on-chain with each block.
<bitcoin-wizards8>
zkSync is tuned for an account based VM, and simply uses a contract for peg-in/out.
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