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<yanmaani>
Have there been any suggestions on lowering the block size limit to encourage UTXO set consolidation?
<yanmaani>
1 UTXO created lowers the block size by X bytes, 1 UTXO destroyed increases it by X bytes.
<sipa>
that'd be a hard fork
<sipa>
(unless you treat a net destruction as zero, and only treat a net creation as a penalty)
<yanmaani>
What, even for SegWit?
<sipa>
yes
<yanmaani>
Isn't the 1 MB limit the only hard limit?
<sipa>
no, there is now a 4000000 weight limit, which is just as hard as the old 1000000 bytes limit
<yanmaani>
Anyway, you could give the block size a haircut, so that above N net destroyed UTXOs will not count
<yanmaani>
wait what, you didn't make this one soft?? bloody hell
<sipa>
?
<yanmaani>
I mean you could've just let it sunset after a year and then continually re-soft forked to keep it that way
<sipa>
what does a "soft limit" even mean?
<yanmaani>
instead of putting it in for perpetuity
<sipa>
i think that would be terrible idea
<yanmaani>
how come?
<yanmaani>
assuming that you update it every 6 months, it would just be regular bitcoin update business no?
<sipa>
first, it wouldn't really accomplish any capacity increase (the base limit is still 1000000 bytes, so removing the 4000000 weight limit would just permit people to spam the witness data, not perform more transactions)
<yanmaani>
Right, but you could use it to do things like this
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<sipa>
second, you should never assume that any future consensus rule change in bitcoin would be acceptable to the ecosystem
<yanmaani>
Also, why is that the case? Why can't segwit -> segwit transactions be stored separately?
<sipa>
so sunsetting the weight limit is effectively saying you're ok with unlimited spam after 6 months
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<sipa>
yanmaani: that sounds like an extension block proposal... it's possible, but far more complicated to get right than segwit was
<yanmaani>
well you'd just move all the transaction data to segwit in sw>sw txns
<yanmaani>
in theory
<sipa>
yes, in theory
<sipa>
and that's an extension block effectively
<sipa>
which means you need to deal with the complexity of transfers between the "segwit-only region" and the legacy region
<yanmaani>
hmm
<yanmaani>
but back to my original question; couldn't you add in a net size decrease and then the UTXO size decrease/increase?
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<yanmaani>
so you could gain back size, limited to the haircut
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<yanmaani>
and big consolidations would best be spread across several blocks
<sipa>
i wish you good luck convincing people that a net size decrease is good
<sipa>
:)
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<sipa>
i don't disagree that some rule like this, if we had freedom to design any system, should be considered
<sipa>
but i don't think it's feasible to find acceptance for it now
<yanmaani>
Not even a tiny one? Imagine you'd cut it from 4000 to 3950, with sunset in 6mo
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<sipa>
yanmaani: hard to say without someone actually championing such a proposal and working it out... but it seems rather ineffective if it's that small
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<zmnscpxj>
bsm117532: Since the authorized pubkey onchain remains the same, yes, the current owner can always override all the relative-timelocked transactions with a non-timelocked transaction that becomes a new funding tx for a new statechain
<zmnscpxj>
so it is certainly doable
<zmnscpxj>
in-reply-to: < bsm117532> What might be desirable is if the current owner could immediately spend any past owner's on-chain withdrawal, *back* into the statechain. So 2 tx's may appear on the chain, but the current owner can continue as if nothing happened, as long as the statechain is watching the mempool and it's assumed this 2-tx chain gets mined at some point.
<zmnscpxj>
assuming the Secure Element is sophisticated enough to create such a scheme
<zmnscpxj>
(which increases the audit requirements on the SE)
<zmnscpxj>
< bsm117532> .... you could provide remote attestation to deletion of the key material, in principle
<zmnscpxj>
You need to prove you did not make a copy of the key material before you deleted it as well, which I think is not in general possible to prove
<zmnscpxj>
even if you have a proof-of-deletion
<zmnscpxj>
I believe single-use-seals as well are most easily implemented using a blockchain to record seals that have been used. A UTXO is a single-use-seal, for example.
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<bsm117532>
zmnscpxj: I've been thinking a lot about single use seals. What proposals/implementations exist besides hashing a Merkle tree into bitcoin and using bitcoin itself to "close" the seals?
<bsm117532>
The next problem is getting bitcoin script to verify that a seal is open or closed...
<bsm117532>
Mainstay seems to be an ordered Merkle tree such that you can prove presence or absence of a certain quantity. I watched a talk yesterday by petertodd about this, and the state storage requirements are pretty extreme, not to mention that you have to update your proofs with every update of the root commitment.
* bsm117532
still dreams of an efficient O(1) accumulator...
<bsm117532>
"We suggest an alternative method of generating groups of unknown order for constructions such as cryptographic accumulators, by using the Jacobian groups of hyperelliptic curves (especially of genus 3)."