sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<CubicEarth>
I think it could be helpful to require that all blocks be padded to be some maximum size. I don't have a suggestion for how that would practically work with the way segwit is currently implemented.
<CubicEarth>
But thinking about the lighting flood issue, the larger concern seems to be how to design a system to have surge capacity
<CubicEarth>
I think surge capacity is fundamentally at odds with designing something that is perfectly optimized to work right up to the margins most of the time
<CubicEarth>
So perhaps if there were a way to make all blocks be a larger size, but incentivize half or three quarters or even 90% of the block to be padded with junk, then under certain conditions, that junk could be replaced with transactions
<CubicEarth>
The junk would need to be transmitted initially, but could / should be able to be pruned off and not stored long term nor needed for the IBD
<sipa>
I don't see how that would address anything.
<CubicEarth>
if a system is always used to full capacity, then it is hard or impossible to accommodate surges
<sipa>
in a market based system, bulk usage is not what matters
<sipa>
only usage that pays more than you
<sipa>
stuffing things with garbage would inherently pay zero 0, and thus be irrelevant from the perspective of anyone who wants to pay a nonzefo fee
<CubicEarth>
I agree, except in Bitcoin people are incredibly concerned with the 'externality' of what costs larger blocks impose on nodes
<CubicEarth>
The garbage idea, vs just having low-paying txs fill that space, helps because it wouldn't need to be stored or validated on IBD
<sipa>
so it doesn't matter for fee calculation, and doesn't put load on nodes... what is the point?
<sipa>
can we just pretend it's there instead?
<CubicEarth>
If surge events are rare enough, things can brake when that happens. So passing around junk would keep every one well practiced. It would be like continual fire drills
<sipa>
but it's not a fire drill if it's zero fee
<CubicEarth>
(making sure latencies works, that people have enough bandwidth, and processing power to handle the blocks)
<CubicEarth>
I'm not sure why the not having a fees would change it. Right now, even if provided for in the protocol, if there were a series of 10 MB blocks, conceivably there are some systems out there that would have problems, since the bandwidth would exceed there specs
<CubicEarth>
You don't want systems to break under load conditions
<CubicEarth>
padding all blocks to that size would make sure that didn't happen
<sipa>
oh, that has nothing to do with the lightning flood issue
<sipa>
you're talking about nodes being able to deal with blocks at capacity
<sipa>
i don't think that's a problem, most blocks are max weight already or close to it
<CubicEarth>
well one solution to lighting flood issue, theoretically, is to have elastic block sizes that would be capable of expanding to larger (significantly larger?!) size during an instance of a large scale attack
<CubicEarth>
right?
<sipa>
if an attacker can outbid the "legitimate" use you're trying to protect, why couldn't they do the same with the added elastic capacity?
<sipa>
unless it's orders of magnitude larger, which obviously runs into other problemz
<CubicEarth>
I see
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<jeremyrubin>
CubicEarth: have you looked at OP_CTV congestion control?
<jeremyrubin>
It has both effects you are talking about
<CubicEarth>
I'm not sure why, but my long-held conception until right now was that somehow that lightning 'disputes' could overwhelm chain capacity to resolve them. But I'm struggling to think why I thought that, because I guess it makes sense the rate of disputes themselves limited by block space, and therefore in proportion to the rate of ability to resolve them
<jeremyrubin>
CubicEarth: Lightning channels use abs time locks
<jeremyrubin>
so they can get overwhelmed
<CubicEarth>
jeremyrubin: I remember when you first presented OP_CTV (then under a different name), and thought it was great, but haven't thought about its implications much since
<jeremyrubin>
Going to give a VR talk in 50 mins if you want to join :) not about scaling and congestion control tho
<jeremyrubin>
CubicEarth: I recall :) thanks again for the support!
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<CubicEarth>
Thanks for the sponser credit... now I get to feel like a big shot!
<CubicEarth>
roasbeef has an idea... pre-allocated space for dispute adjudication (PASDA), or something like that... anyone recall?
<CubicEarth>
roasbeef: ?
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<instagibbs>
IIRC that type of idea was joseph poon first?
<instagibbs>
(I have no citations but i recall it being floated for an extension block)
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<waxwing>
all the space is for dispute adjudication :)
<sipa>
+1
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