<d1b2>
<Attie> whitequark - apologies for poking you again here, did you see my recent emails? (just want to check you're in the loop)
<cyborg_ar>
question for tomorrow: I see esden is implementing a ram pak for the glasgow. Are there any plans to implement a rumble pak as well?
<d1b2>
<Attie> heh... you want your glasgow buzzing around the desk like a toothbrush bug?!
<whitequark>
Attie: yes, I have seen them
<whitequark>
I check my email often enough to have constant anxiety about things I ought to be doing.
<d1b2>
<Darius> that's what you call buzz testing 😉
<d1b2>
<Attie> oh, i'm very sorry - just didn't want things to be a surprise for you!
<cyborg_ar>
yeah for continuity testing mode
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<d1b2>
<ehntoo> Earlier today I finished assembly of the first 2 of 10 glasgow C2 boards I'm building for myself and friends. Thanks so much for the project!
<d1b2>
<ehntoo> from looking through the issues, my understanding is that the I2C address clash with the INA233 ARA is effectively a non-issue with the firmware workaround. should I consider bodging on the additional VIO_AUX decoupling caps and the Vsense RC filters from revC3 before handing these to friends less-capable of fine rework soldering?
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<d1b2>
<Lambda> Is it just me, or has there been not much marketing of the Glasgow campaign in the various open hardware, maker, etc venues given that there's only a week left on the campaign?
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<d1b2>
<Lambda> I mean, it funded by a lot within hours of the campaign opening, but I would expect to see a few more mentions of it around other places I've been following (Adafruit, Hackaday, eevblog, etc), and the "as featured in" section of the campaign looks a bit thin.
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<electronic_eel>
@ehntoo about what to change from stock revC2: you could easily add in the Vsense RC filter if you have the parts at hand, as the correct footprints are already there. the VIO_AUX cap would require bodge wires and I don't think it is worth it. The INA233 ARA issue is worked around in firmware and I think we'll keep that workaround in there
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<eddyb>
not really, I just couldn't resist grabbing it, with all those historical chips on there (and the frontends) D:
<eddyb>
the ADCs are 8-bit parallel IIRC, with some luck it might be possible to just read the data out with the Glasgow, while ignoring the FPGA/i960 side of the board
<gruetzkopf>
i960!
<eddyb>
ikr??
<eddyb>
might be cool to snoop some ROM traffic as it boots (assuming it's even in working condition, lol)
<gruetzkopf>
i do have a i960 boot
<gruetzkopf>
*board
<gruetzkopf>
compaq LightsOut PCI card
<eddyb>
were they mainly used for industrial control?
<eddyb>
(i960s I mean)
<gruetzkopf>
i've mostly seen i860/i960 in RAID cards and network gear
<eddyb>
gruetzkopf: god seeing those kinds of boards makes me want to have some silly cheap FPGA cluster that together acts like a low-end GPU or something
<eddyb>
not really practical, just extremely cool for some reason
<gruetzkopf>
don't have a reality engine machine, but the onxy2 with infiniteReality2 graphics is fun too
<gruetzkopf>
uses a bigendian arm610 for OpenGL command stream processing
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<d1b2>
<Lambda> > was semi-stealth mode intentional? (I know it's already a lot larger than anticipated by @esden )... > we could try to make some more noise in the last few days if not
<d1b2>
<Lambda> That question is was what I was getting at.
<d1b2>
<DX-MON> for the benefit of the IRC side, that was a quote about the "was semi-stealth mode intentional?" question from earlier
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Oh, sorry, didn't know that quotes don't mirror to IRC correctly
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Anyhow, I was wondering if outreach to some other venues might be appreciated
<d1b2>
<Lambda> To drum up some interest for the end of the campaign
<d1b2>
<Attie> it comes through with > prefix, but it's a bit messy because of the multi-line
<d1b2>
<Lambda> I also know it can be obnoxious for crowdfunding fans to be over-enthusiastic, so I wanted to check in before doing any outreach
<d1b2>
<Attie> I'd wait for approval from @esden in particular, but @whitequark too from a project support / attention side (re: drumming up more interest)
<d1b2>
<Lambda> nods
<DX-MON>
ah, I see what you mean Attie.. it's so messy I hadn't actually spotted the quote line
<d1b2>
<Lambda> I really should dust off an IRC client and get back onto IRC.
<d1b2>
<Lambda> It can sometimes be hard to keep up with the number of different chat/messaging systems these days; I know at least one person or community which prefers each of Slack, Discord, Matrix, Zulip, IRC, Signal, Twitter, Facebook, and I'm sure some others I'm not thinking of
<DX-MON>
Telegram - is one you missed
<d1b2>
<Lambda> I don't personally know anyone or any communities which use Telegram or Whatsapp, but I know that they are popular in some places. I was just listing the ones I have personal reason to use.
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Anyhow, back on topic, if @esden and @whitequark are OK with it, I'd be up for helping out with doing a bit of last-week outreach to get the campaign some more publicity. But if the semi-stealth is intentional, due to the unexpected demand, that's fine too.
<d1b2>
<Attie> the AMA is in ~1 hr, so that may get a bit more attention... otherwise, I'd sit tight and wait for a response
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Ah, right, had forgotten about that.
<d1b2>
<Attie> @Lambda I've spoken with esden OOB... if you'd like to do a reddit post it similar, please feel free. I'd be happy to review any wording
<d1b2>
<Attie> reddit is a difficult one, because of their "self-promotion" rules
<electronic_eel>
maybe also a post on the eevblog forum? that is quite popular and i don't think there are any rules against posting your crowdfunding stuff there
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Fair enough. I am, but also only fairly recently getting back into the hardware side of things, so I don't necessarily follow all of the relevant subs
<sorear>
the crowdsupply page got posted to hn and /r/electronics when it was new, was deleted from the latter
<sorear>
* /r/embeded
<electronic_eel>
unfortunately Hackaday posted a entry about Glasgow some months before the launch of the campaign
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Yeah, I'll make sure to check each sub for their rules; some are more open to crowdfunding campaigns than others
<d1b2>
<Lambda> How about getting a shoutout from Adafruit? They carry a bunch of 1bitsquared stuff, and I was watching an older video where ladyada mentioned Glasgow while it was still in dev
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Yeah, /r/electronics has a "no commercial posts" rule which seems like it would cover crowdfunding campaigns
<d1b2>
<Attie> also, fwiw, esden has put a lot of effort into the crowdsupply campaign, and publicising it - podcasts and things too... i've likely seen stuff around and glossed over it (perhaps because of my proximity - oops), so apologies for reinforcing the opinion with my "semi-stealth mode" comment. i'm not sure that's fair
<sorear>
@Lambda it was posted on, and then disappeared from (no longer searchable), embedded not electronics
<d1b2>
<david.lenfesty> /r/theamphour maybe?
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Yeah, I was just checking to see if /r/electronics has a similar policy, which it sounds like it does.
<d1b2>
<Lambda> /r/theamphour sounds reasonable; it looks like the intent of that sub is to collect interesting electronics links which are relevant to the podcast, and Glasgow seems on topic.
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Now to come up with a description that will fit in a link title.
<d1b2>
<Lambda> How does "Glasgow Interface Explorer: First fully open source FPGA based digital interface tool, allows you to decode, probe, and reverse engineer nearly any digital interface from Python" sound?
<d1b2>
<Lambda> @esden have you sent samples to anyone? Probably a bit late to do that by now, but I know there are various youtubers who do mailbags where they show off things that people send them
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<d1b2>
<Attie> some people do have them, yes
<d1b2>
<Attie> Scotty / Strange Parts has one, and @DX-MON probably counts too!
<d1b2>
<Attie> *Scotty will be receiving one soon...
<d1b2>
<Lambda> The thought about this came up when I was watching an old Adafruit interview with Michael Ossman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0uIoJ9gK4Y, where Glasgow came up in conversation, and I realized that I didn't think I'd seen them mention it at all since the campaign had actually opened (though I don't watch every video, so I could have just missed it)
<d1b2>
<DX-MON> I believe I count, yes
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<d1b2>
<esden> @Lambda regarding YouTubers... I find that they unpack the stuff show it off on video for a minute. Then never use it. Glasgow needs to be shown in action I think. The people that I used to send hardware to stopped doing youtube or hardware stuff. And others I am afraid will not really do it justice. There was a limited amount of pre production prototypes to send out.
<jpa->
yeah, glasgow is probably not the easiest device for a quick demo
<d1b2>
<esden> There are thanks to attie and greg hundred or so people that have the hardware too. I have seen maybe three people actually talk about Glasgow on YT or twitter.
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Yeah, that's fair
<d1b2>
<esden> The limited amount of press coverage is not because of lack of trying. 🙂
<d1b2>
<esden> But sending out dozens of expensive prototypes was not very appealing to me. 🙂
<d1b2>
<esden> unless I knew the person will do it justice or contribute to the project in some way
<d1b2>
<Lambda> OK, good to know. Also a bit tough because the mid-campaign period was the holiday period and then civil unrest here in the US, so there were a few distractions
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Yeah, totally understand
<electronic_eel>
might be that the advantages of the Glasgow concept were a bit too hard to grasp for some of the news sites (or their perception of what their readers understand)
<d1b2>
<esden> in my opinion the campaign is extremely successful none the less
<d1b2>
<Lambda> Oh, yeah, it is really successful... I was amazed by how successful it was in the opening hours and without much coverage
<d1b2>
<Lambda> I was offline for an hour or two, missed the launch, and wasn't able to get the early bird discount
<d1b2>
<esden> electronic_eel: that is likely an issue too. There is very little one can compare it with properly. It is in it's own class of reconfigurable/synthetic protocol adapter category.
<d1b2>
<esden> it is not a logic analyzer, it is not really a bus pirate either... (and one would have to know what a bus pirate is)
<d1b2>
<esden> @Lambda we all were pretty shocked. But considering how long we all were talking about it on twitter, and how much subscriptions we had for notifications. It is not that surprising after all.
<d1b2>
<esden> the interest was/is there and it is very strong, without the "regular promotion"
<d1b2>
<esden> those that "get it" really "get it" 😄
<electronic_eel>
what was the rough conversion rate between notification-subscription and orders?
<d1b2>
<esden> let me look it up
<electronic_eel>
oh, there were two kinds of subscriptions, one on the mailchimp wq had set up and one on the crowdsupply page. i guess there were a lot of duplicates between the two
<d1b2>
<esden> about 40% if you just take those that subscribed and who placed the orders
<d1b2>
<esden> if you take the amount of backers vs the subscriptions you get 65%
<electronic_eel>
esden: thanks. that number is pretty high i'd say.
<d1b2>
<esden> yeah that is very high if you look at any web sales conversions
<electronic_eel>
i'd have guessed that more would have lost interest or were scared off by the price
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<d1b2>
<esden> the overwhelming amount of people said that they were positively surprised by the price ... (they went out of the way to tell me that which was nice :D)
<electronic_eel>
yeah. i also expected first it'd be more.
<d1b2>
<esden> me too 😉
<d1b2>
<Attie> I concur re pricing... having done a run of ~50x it's very reasonable, even without the extras you're including
<gruetzkopf>
price is well within my expectations from the first two glasgows i have
<d1b2>
<Attie> (AMA is open!)
<d1b2>
<esden> I was happy I was able to include the cable goodies in the price.
<gruetzkopf>
might have to throw on the LVDS header on my attie-batch-c1 soon
<d1b2>
<Attie> oo, what are you thinking of using it for? (rampak?)
<electronic_eel>
gruetzkopf: you probably have to go for the samtec part and can't use the ones esden uses, because revC1 is missing the holes for the alignment pins
<gruetzkopf>
tell that to my sandpaper sticks ;)
<electronic_eel>
hehe, ok
<electronic_eel>
the dremel will fix everything
<gruetzkopf>
think ice cream stick with sandpaper
<gruetzkopf>
ordinarily used for cleaning relays
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<gruetzkopf>
my plan is to stick some RS485 level shifters on those pins, and leave the IO cells for the TTL stuff on the same connector (this is flip-chip-glasgow usage)
<electronic_eel>
if you keep the rs485 transceivers plugged in all the time i think this should work fine. you'll have to patch the applets a bit of course
<electronic_eel>
just don't plug/unplug the lvds port while powered
<gruetzkopf>
yeah - this implies custom io board and custom applets
<electronic_eel>
do you have one applet that talks to all this stuff at once?
<gruetzkopf>
this is all one absurd late-80s parallel-plus bus
<electronic_eel>
or is it multiple applets where you invoke one at a time to talk to different duts?
<electronic_eel>
ok, so all at once
<gruetzkopf>
yes
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<electronic_eel>
ah, i remember, you wrote about it once. this special ic interface. don't remember the name. the ones that were also used on the avm b1 isdn cards
<d1b2>
<Attie> also note iirc, the LVDS port is 1.8v, and I don't think you'll find many RS-485 line drivers that interface with that - so you'll likely require some interface circuitry
<gruetzkopf>
no, that's simple
<d1b2>
<Attie> it is, just worth being aware of 🙂
<electronic_eel>
Attie: the lvds port doesn't have a fixed voltage. you push in the used voltage on aux
<d1b2>
<Attie> oh neat - all the way up to 3.3v / 5v for example??
<electronic_eel>
so you can set it up to 3v3 if you want
<gruetzkopf>
(the transputer link interface - the bare link is two CMOS pins)
<d1b2>
<Attie> i thought it topped out at 1.8v / 3.3v
<gruetzkopf>
3V3 RS485 drivers are easy
<electronic_eel>
3v3 is max, no fpga with 5v exists
<d1b2>
<Attie> cool - i didn't realise it'd go up to 3.3v, and i'm not surprised re 5v
<electronic_eel>
the 1v8 is just better for esdens ram pak - because on 1v8 the hyperrams draw less current and are faster
<gruetzkopf>
for transputer link you'd ideally want two more outputs (RESET and ANALYSE) and one input (ERROR)
<gruetzkopf>
but on cabling for larger machines, even ANALYSE is uncommon
<electronic_eel>
gruetzkopf: when you already build all the applets yourself, you could cannibalize the sync pin too to get one more io
<gruetzkopf>
the transputer link stuff will work on unmodified glagow without additional hardware
<electronic_eel>
where does the rs485 you want to use come in then?
<gruetzkopf>
two things 1) large commercial transputer systems use RS422 for long cables 2) propietary railway stuff i'm playing with
<gruetzkopf>
the latter will get the custom IO board
<electronic_eel>
but will you use the transputer stuff together with the railway board?
<gruetzkopf>
no
<gruetzkopf>
two totally different things that coincidentally both involve RS485 drivers
<electronic_eel>
then why not make a addin that goes into the regular port headers and you plug in either one or the other?
<gruetzkopf>
latter has byte-wide 500kHz RS485 plus TTL clock/control - and that ideally needs 18 IOs
<electronic_eel>
ok, that is a good reason
<gruetzkopf>
i _could_ get by with less, but then i can't emulate the bus controller and talk directly to a machine if i want
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<gruetzkopf>
not that i can't just set up a few more bus controller, i have more than enogh spare cards
<uberushaximus>
as far as was mentioned a bit ago by esden, the sync functionality is more or less stalled to use more than one revCX at a time?
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<electronic_eel>
uberushaximus: the idea of the sync pin was to allow to use multiple Glasgows at once for some task. but currently there are no applets that make use of that yet
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<electronic_eel>
so it has not been tested how well that works and what the limitations of it are
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<sur5r>
Hi everyone! Thanks for the AMA. Looking forward to playing with the glasgow once it's done.
<sorear>
welcome!
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> @Attie Can I fit a reset button to one of your boards by soldering across the "REC" pads next to U3?
<d1b2>
<Attie> no, that's a new feature in revC2... those pads are for "recovery"
<d1b2>
<esden> "recovery" means that you prevent the FX2 chip to load the eeprom contents on startup. This is very different from the reset/e-stop button. 🙂
<hell__>
you could wire a normally-closed switch in series with the VCC wire on a USB cable
* hell__
ducks
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> OK thanks - is there anywhere to retrofit it or are the connections not exposed anywhere?
<d1b2>
<esden> @hello256 lol... are there no USB cables with an inline light switch? 😛
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> I've seen worse!
<d1b2>
<esden> @Dave G8GKQ I am not sure. Maybe you could wire it into the power good monitor chip. The power sequencing, power good and reset circuitry on revC2 is quite different from the one chip solution on the revC1.
<d1b2>
<esden> But maybe you can just jank one of the lines on the power sequencing chip and reset the board... not sure.
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> I might have just found it. Between pins 1 and 3 of U7?
<sorear>
how many nets can you crowbar that will result in the board (a) resetting (b) not catching fire
* whitequark
stares at sorear
<d1b2>
<Attie> haha. sorear, no
<sorear>
use case for those cheap security keys that don't have a good mechanical contact and short Vbus when wiggled
<d1b2>
<Attie> @Dave G8GKQ I made up some of these a while ago. permits reset (power cycle) and probing, etc... admittedly not super helpful for you (sorry)
<electronic_eel>
@Dave G8GKQ to force a reset on revC1 you need to pull pin 3 (EN) of U7 (LM3880 power sequencer) to GND
<electronic_eel>
that way the power sequencer thinks the power in is lower than the undervoltage threshold and will reset everything
<d1b2>
<Attie> there is also the glasgow safe command, but that's a software approach / not super in line with what you're asking
<electronic_eel>
but to be able to press the button easily you'd have to mount it in a mechanically stable way. since there are no holes prepared for it, you'd probably have to epoxy it in or something. i don't know if that is worth it
<sorear>
the purpose of the button is to be more ergonomic than "unplug it" and I wonder if retrofits achieve that
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<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> Thanks. That's the area I was looking in. Mechanicals is no problem as the Glasgow is already in a die-cast box with J2 and J3 extended to the side panels and a USB lead clamped in.
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> My work-bench is not a nice place for SMD PCBs so I take care of them!
<whitequark>
die-cast whoa, pics?
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> Thanks Attie. I used to have a few similar switches for switching Power to Raspberry Pis. I'll try @electronic_eel's suggestion
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> Not a custom box, just a repurposed Eddystone Die Cast box which did not have too many holes in it from its previous usage
<whitequark>
ah
<d1b2>
<Dave G8GKQ> I know they are not ideal connectors, but I'm only going to be doing slow stuff....
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<d1b2>
<esden> Damn... that looks ... robust! 😄
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<d1b2>
<fishmonger> @whitequark: You mentioned that Glasgow can go from 1.8 to 5.0V in the AMA, and that the regulator tops out at 5.5v. Could it easily be hacked to go from say 2.0 to 5.2v? For most things going slightly under 5.0 would be interesting for dumping EPROMS, but it would be nice to be able to also go slightly over.
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<whitequark>
fishmonger: sure, just give it 5.5V over USB
<d1b2>
<fishmonger> Oh, right. Can do! Thanks 🙂
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<d1b2>
<Greg> I'm wanting to save UART streams with temporal information embedded. So a stream can be captured and then replayed in real-time later.
<d1b2>
<Greg> Think of GPS data or IMU sensors.
<d1b2>
<Attie> that's handy for a lot of reasons!
<d1b2>
<Greg> I'm thinking an custom applet would fit the bill. But do you know of anyone doing this already?
<d1b2>
<Attie> I'm intrigued what sort of resolution you'd need/like... would be great to put it in gateware, but is it necessary?
<d1b2>
<Attie> (I don't know of anyone doing this)
<sorear>
if you can get it to go through a PTY there is an entire field of software for logging and replaying terminal data with timestamps
<d1b2>
<Attie> my thinking exactly
<sorear>
and if you're satisfied with ~millisecond resolution
<d1b2>
<Greg> I'm thinking about UART in particular. I guess with the FPGA you could RLE encode signal changes on the wire for 100% match.
<d1b2>
<Greg> Otherwise millisecond accuracy would probably be fine, so I suppose in that case glasgow can just be a pty device.
<modwizcode>
whitequark: Huh that's very interesting. That chip layout seems much more complex than typical 74 series chips I've looked at.
<ebb>
If it's sporadic info (rather than nicely streaming data), maybe a {timestamp, content} capture arrangement as an alternative?
<d1b2>
<Attie> a time delta between each character could be neat
<d1b2>
<Attie> I've used things that timestamp per-line before, but not per frame/character
<d1b2>
<Attie> even 115,200 baud is ~87us frame time, so ms resolution wouldn't be great
<d1b2>
<Greg> Yeah, you'll probably want to target 115200 at a minimum. Even though many NMEA compliant GPS units default to 9600 -_-
<sorear>
depending on the protocol a large fraction of characters might be "immediately" after the previous
<d1b2>
<Attie> yeah... 9600 has a more or less 1ms frame time, but again... you won't probably get that from the host side due to buffering and "usb stuff"
<d1b2>
<Greg> I'll start poking around with an applet design.
<modwizcode>
The concept of a generic way to add event tagging to applets strikes me as an interesting concept, probably too much of a mess though.
<d1b2>
<Attie> perhaps a delta / count of bit-times between characters / start bits would work well... 16/32bit counter, followed by the data via the FIFO, to keep it simple at that level
<modwizcode>
There's already some sort of logic for the event tracking that's used for the logic analyzer thingy. I never finished going through the code though so I don't remember what functionality it offered.
<whitequark>
Attie: the way i would implement it is by adding a fixed width counter where the max value means "no events happened until overflow"