Topic for #homecmos is now Homebrew CMOS and MEMS foundry design | http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ | Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/homecmos-logs/
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<azonenberg> Thetawaves: I'm at 20um now and have a roadmap down to 1um
<azonenberg> using current equipment
<azonenberg> 20um at 10x reduction => 5um at 40x => 2um at 100x immersion => 1um with double patterning
<azonenberg> just need to work out some focuser drift and maybe buy better quality objective lenses
<Thetawaves> is it some sort of photoresist process?
<azonenberg> Yes
<azonenberg> Spin coat in photoresist and expose a mask (laser printer transparency, 600DPI) through a microscope objective to reduce feature size
<azonenberg> then develop and etch
<Thetawaves> what is limiting you to 20um?
<azonenberg> My stage isn't quite perpendicular to the optical axis
<azonenberg> depth of field at 40x reduction isn't enough to uniformly expose the whole die
<azonenberg> i need to spend some time calibrating it
<azonenberg> once i get that done, i need to work on drift
<Thetawaves> what does your setup look like?
<azonenberg> the stage slowly moves down
<azonenberg> not by much but a shift of 100nm is all it takes at these scales
<azonenberg> it'll blur an immersion exposure beyond recognition
<Thetawaves> it would be cool to get some professional optics
<azonenberg> I'm using a $800 metallurgical microscope
<azonenberg> put the mask over the camera port and backlight wit ha halogen lamp
<Thetawaves> took me a while to find that supplier
<Thetawaves> i don't know about cost, but it's got all the professional shit you'd need
<azonenberg> Yeah
<azonenberg> i have one of their catalogs hanging out here
<azonenberg> great stuff, if i made 10x what i do now :p
<Thetawaves> too expensive?
<azonenberg> Depends on what you want
<azonenberg> in general, the really cool toys
<azonenberg> like 385nm laser systems
<azonenberg> are pricey :p
<Thetawaves> i was thinking that maybe it would be more convenient to align
<Thetawaves> so you could do it better/faster
<azonenberg> I do intend to ebay some stages/focusers at some point
<Thetawaves> 600dpi is what um?
<azonenberg> It's about 42um on the mask
<azonenberg> divided by the objective you use
<azonenberg> i usually use 10x which gives me roughly 5um lambda
<Thetawaves> per dot?
<azonenberg> Yes
<azonenberg> at a 5 pixel design rule that's nominally a 20um design rule
<azonenberg> its actually 21.something, i'd have to go run the numbers
<azonenberg> But i refer to it as my 20um process for simplicity's sake
<Thetawaves> do you have an indicator?
<azonenberg> indicator?
<azonenberg> what do you mean
<azonenberg> i have a calibrated camera on my microscope i can use for measuring distances
<azonenberg> No
<azonenberg> i do have a digital micrometer
<Thetawaves> use that to align your shits
<Thetawaves> that's not good enough
<azonenberg> graduated in microns and accurate to +/- 2 or 3
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> this is a nice mitutoyo
<Thetawaves> dial indicators swing about an axis to allow you to check flatness
<azonenberg> best measuring instrument i ever used
<azonenberg> and i align optically
<azonenberg> remember my exposuire system doubles as a microscope ;)
<azonenberg> So i just turn the lamp down low and align the projected image to the features on the wafer
<azonenberg> then turn it up high to expose
<Thetawaves> i think it would be a valuable tool
<azonenberg> might be, but i dont have one yet
* azonenberg looks at clock
<azonenberg> almost 0600 here lol
<azonenberg> And the rest of this stack of exams isn't getting graded while i'm as sleepy as i am now :p
<Thetawaves> hah
<Thetawaves> good night
<azonenberg> Good night? It's six in the morning :p
* azonenberg AFKs
* bart416 drags azonenberg back in here
<bart416> LTSpice is remarkably fast at simulating amplifiers :S
<bart416> 6ms/s...
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<bart416> These guys designed their PCB with the assumption that there are x% of cold joints I'd say :S
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<azonenberg> bart416: what??
<azonenberg> redundant links or something?
<bart416> yes
<bart416> all the diodes in the protection circuits are in parallel
<bart416> completely useless
<bart416> except if you're expecting cold joints
<azonenberg> lol
<bart416> I traced everything and worked it out somewhat
<azonenberg> What about for increased current?
<bart416> And the only reason is cold joints lol
<bart416> diodes don't work like that though
<bart416> They'd pop one by one
<azonenberg> You mean they dont have the exact same Vfwd?
<azonenberg> Yeah
<azonenberg> I've seen that happen
<azonenberg> But maybe the designer doesnt know that :p
<bart416> On IC level you can put them in parallel actually
<berndj> i've seen people claim that diodes do share current nicely
<berndj> not that i'm convinced...
<azonenberg> Maybe at IC level
<azonenberg> because then you can guarantee consistency to a higher level
<berndj> yeah, much closer thermal coupling
<azonenberg> just like parallel transistors are baiscally just a longer channel
<azonenberg> Well its also consistency in doping etc
<berndj> *wider, but yeah
<azonenberg> but not from die to die
<azonenberg> whcih might have been even on different wafers
<berndj> i always thought it's primarily about the loose thermal coupling that BJTs and diodes don't share current nicely - because of the negative tempco of Vf
<azonenberg> I think its mostly related to Vf being different at time=0
<azonenberg> one of them heats up a little more
<azonenberg> then you get runaway
<berndj> otoh, when i measure Vf of random 1N4007s with my multimeter, invariably they're the same to within a few mV
<berndj> there's probably a critical current above which they stop sharing nicely
<azonenberg> a few mV though?
<azonenberg> Thats enouhg
<bart416> Current takes the path of least resistance as well
<azonenberg> you heat up by a tenth of a degree
<azonenberg> Vf changes
<azonenberg> it heats up even faster
<azonenberg> you get a positive feedback loop in which this die dissipates more and more power as a function of the total
<azonenberg> before long, bang
<azonenberg> i've seen it happen with paralleled LEDs
<azonenberg> all in parallel with the same series resistor
<azonenberg> one blew, others were fine
<berndj> it does, but it also dissipates faster - below a certain current the dissipation actually dominates (IIRC & YMMV - i did this sort of calc for hotspot along the length of a copper wire once, critical current density was maybe a few dozen A/mm^2)
<bart416> What actually does work to some extent is putting a fast shottky diode in parallel with a regular PN diode
<bart416> in certain situations that is
<bart416> you have the fast response from the shottky
<bart416> and the current capability of the PN diode
<berndj> how does the current capability of the PN diode even come into play though?
<bart416> it depends on the circuit berndj
<berndj> i thought the schottky would destroy itself protecting the PN diode
<bart416> the thing is, the shottky (aaaaargh c key doesn't work if I type fast and I have to hit it with a sledge hammer) has a higher Vf than the PN in those particular situations
<bart416> Resulting in the PN diode taking all the current through it
<berndj> oh - you mean Vf rises faster than a regular diode's does?
<bart416> A schottky is simply faster at switching
<berndj> but also lower Vf
<bart416> As I said, specific situations
<bart416> I've seen it done in some high power pulsed laser circuits
<berndj> hah. throw out the rulebook then
<bart416> not really
<bart416> it still sticks to the rules
<bart416> the schottky is activated faster (the voltage is high enough to activate it anyway), but the PN requires a lower voltage in that case resulting in the PN taking the punishment off the schottky within a few microseconds
<berndj> regular schottkys or those fancy new SiC ones?
<bart416> Dunno
<bart416> Sorry, but I don't study the naming of components in detail
<berndj> i mean the new schottkys where the one half is SiC (wider bandgap) and not plain silicon
<berndj> let's you have fast switching at 1000V+
<bart416> Heh, playing with high current GaAs diodes is also fun
<berndj> ugh. i now realize what "looked wrong" in that "let's"
<bart416> azonenberg, I think I actually found PCB design software for simple things that doesn't make me want to kill myself :|
<azonenberg> bart416: Simple things? Yeah
<azonenberg> It's when you start doing >=4 layer designs with fat parallel buses and differential pairs
<azonenberg> that it gets tricky :p
<bart416> Then you just start using OrCAD, ADS or Altium...
<azonenberg> unfortunately i cant afford any of them lol
<bart416> Those are the only three that seem to be capable of handling more than 2 layers well
<azonenberg> expresspcb *can* as long as the two inner layers are just power/ground planes
<bart416> actually, design spark seems to be capable of more than 10 layers lol
<bart416> (and not just power or ground planes either it seems :S )
<azonenberg> But express can't do differential pairs
<azonenberg> or autoroute
<azonenberg> I'm looking at kicad and geda
<azonenberg> havnet made a choice yet
<bart416> oh but design spark can auto route
<bart416> Hence, it's awesome
<azonenberg> i want to do a small 4-layer design in both
<bart416> And it also seems to be capable of handling eagle libraries at first glance
<bart416> try design spark, seriously
<azonenberg> winblows?
<azonenberg> if so thats a game-over
<bart416> yeah, it's windows
<azonenberg> yeah, i am not going to be happy with that :p
<azonenberg> express at least sort of runs in wine
<azonenberg> but none of the nice ones do
<bart416> Try to run it in wine
<bart416> + also seems to have some links to spice at first sight
<azonenberg> and can it export gerber?
<bart416> looks like it
<azonenberg> very nice, i'll take a look
<azonenberg> a FOSS tool would be best of course
<bart416> Well, I'm not really sure how RS managed to do this :S
<bart416> This is a direct shot at eagle lol
<bart416> And at first sight it's head on
<azonenberg> very nice
<azonenberg> limited?
<bart416> Doesn't look like it
<bart416> well, unless you mean 14 layers is a limit
<azonenberg> I mean artificially limtid
<azonenberg> and is it free or commercial?
<bart416> free, you do need to register but that's it
<azonenberg> so whats the catch?
<bart416> and it can "only" do boards up to 1m squared lol
<bart416> I'm trying to find the catch :S
<azonenberg> expresspcb limits you to their proprietary CAD format
<azonenberg> So you can only use their fab service
<bart416> well, there's gerber export...
<azonenberg> but its freeware and has no *artificial* limitations
<azonenberg> though its design sucks and you can't do >2 signal layers plus optionally 2 power planes
<bart416> At first sight it doesn't look limited at all :S
<azonenberg> so designspark is free and unlimited
<bart416> Looks like it
<azonenberg> But then why arent they releasing source?
<azonenberg> do they plan to go commercial eventually?
<azonenberg> and this is like a public beta?
<bart416> Doesn't look like it
* bart416 is stunned as well :|
<azonenberg> i dont get the catch
<azonenberg> if they wanted it to be free they'd probably release source
<azonenberg> otherwise they'd try to sell it
<azonenberg> or put ads in
<azonenberg> or lock it to their fab
<azonenberg> or what
<bart416> well, it does have features like "export partslist to RS Online"
<bart416> So it does seem like a bit of a marketing ploy
<azonenberg> So they make it easy to use their service
<bart416> Yes
<azonenberg> But they don't lock you in at all?
<azonenberg> if the program isnt time limited, and you can export to gerber, you can always leave
<bart416> I haven't spotted neither of such limitations :S
<azonenberg> weird
<bart416> + some degree of eagle compatibility
<bart416> Win-Win
<bart416> + Nice standard library at first sight
<azonenberg> it just seems too good to be true
<azonenberg> but yet they arent releasing source
<bart416> why would they, it's a marketing ploy in the long run
<azonenberg> Marketing ploy how though
<azonenberg> are they just relying on people using their fab service because its easy?
<bart416> I guess
<bart416> It shows an ad at the start
<bart416> for their pcb service
<azonenberg> Oh, ok - its adware
<azonenberg> Easy to nop out
<bart416> Actually can't find a direct export to their pcb service easily
<azonenberg> Well, if all i have to do is add a single well placed 0x90
<azonenberg> i dont see the harm in using it :p
<bart416> I'm really going to try this out
<azonenberg> Let me know how it goes
<azonenberg> and if you patch out the ads, let me know the byte offset that has to get nopped out
<bart416> it takes 2 seconds to click away the ad
<azonenberg> Doesnt matter
<bart416> It's just a small window at the start
<azonenberg> I show no mercy to ads
<azonenberg> if i decide i am not buying from you, that'sit
<azonenberg> and showing me the ad again wont make me more likely to
<azonenberg> it just annoys me, and you won't like me when i'm annoyed :p
<bart416> Considering the profit margin on PCB manufacturing I do see how they can offer this free heh
<bart416> If 50 people use it to order a 4 layer bord they paid their programmers in india probably
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> I guess
<azonenberg> In any case, i like to say there are two kinds of electronic ads
<azonenberg> Those i never see
<azonenberg> And those i see once
<bart416> lol
<bart416> I'm so not going to bother disassembling a free program :|
<azonenberg> if they offered a pay version without ads i might consider it
<azonenberg> might even buy a board from their service to justify it
<azonenberg> But i will not stand for ads
<bart416> lol, go to their site and demand that you can pay $1 to remove the ad :')
<azonenberg> do they offer the option?
<azonenberg> becuase if not i will do what i takes :p
<bart416> they don't
<bart416> "But they're open to suggestions"
<bart416> xD
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> my suggestion, i buy a board from them at some point
<azonenberg> and do what it takes to live without ads
<azonenberg> That's if i like the program when i test it out
<bart416> It's 24h service btw their pcb thing :')
<azonenberg> Very nice, what's pricing look like?
<azonenberg> for say a 4 layer, two or three inches square
<bart416> size in mm?
<azonenberg> say 50-75 square
<azonenberg> Oh, they arent USA based?
<bart416> no
<azonenberg> That woudl cost more
<bart416> 75 gbp for a 250 mm� board...
<bart416> ( layer)
<bart416> *4
<azonenberg> But what does this have to do with designspark?
<bart416> dunno
<bart416> Must be connected to RSOnline
<azonenberg> Hmm, i see
<bart416> lol
<bart416> Challenge accepted
* bart416 encrypts all his HDs in Rijndael 256 bit
<azonenberg> " First, evidence-gathering goons can turn off a computer (for transportation) without realizing it’s encrypted,"
<azonenberg> That's just idiotic
<azonenberg> you're supposed to do a RAM dump before shutting it off
<bart416> That's still sort of useless if the hardware is locking it down
<azonenberg> If you get the keys out of ram, you win
<azonenberg> And there are ways around such things if you have physical access, i wont go into too much detail
<bart416> Who says they're stored in the ram ;)
<azonenberg> i'm talking stuff like truecrypt etc
<azonenberg> There are of course other options
<bart416> Oh, I'm talking about full blown disk encryption
<azonenberg> truecrypt FDE i mean
<azonenberg> still stores keys in ram
<bart416> Done at hardware level
<bart416> Good luck bypassing that
<azonenberg> Ok, that
<azonenberg> Yeah
<bart416> You need an electron microscope to get the key, and that's if you're lucky
<azonenberg> Actually, you probably just need to pay off the guy at Samsung
<azonenberg> who put the backdoor in it
<azonenberg> and convince him to give you the key :p
<bart416> The thing is, there is no backdoor
<azonenberg> That the public knows about
<azonenberg> Thats what i like abou GPG etc, source is public
<bart416> These things are designed in such a fashion that they're hard to probe even with an electron microscope
<azonenberg> so i can verify its not tampered with
<azonenberg> You're telling *me* about tamper resistant hardwarer
<azonenberg> i happen to have photos of decapped smartcards on my wall :p
<azonenberg> I'm just saying, you can't rule out the possibility
<bart416> Yes, believe it or not, they make these things tamper resistant :|
<azonenberg> that there is a second copy of the key encrypted with a different password
<azonenberg> FDE encryps using a session key that's stored on disk encrypted with, guess what' the user's password
<azonenberg> but what about the second copy of the key?
<azonenberg> I guarantee you that if [A-Z]{3} considers these things a threat
<azonenberg> they will, and probably have, backdoored all commercially available models
<azonenberg> If they havent, the chinese gov't or whatever probably did it to keep tabs on their own citizens
<bart416> Unlike what you think, governments actually don't like doing that
<azonenberg> Like, no
<azonenberg> But all it takes is one person
<azonenberg> could be the mob for all i know
<bart416> And that person still won't do that
<bart416> For they use the same hardware
<azonenberg> But if nobody else knows its there?
<bart416> You don't introduce a backdoor into something you use
<bart416> You still don't introduce it
<azonenberg> Sure you do, if its asymmetric crypto
<azonenberg> and you have the private key
<azonenberg> you pay off the guy and give him your pubkey
<bart416> You still don't do it
<azonenberg> It's risky and i think its unlikely
<azonenberg> my point is that you can never be sure
<azonenberg> And depending on how big a target you are sometimes paranoia is justified
<azonenberg> just look at google in china
<bart416> Well, if you are going to be paranoid like that, you might want to stop using a processor made by intel or amd
<azonenberg> there is a good reason darpa is exploring how to detect fab-level tampering
<azonenberg> DoD is worried about it too
<bart416> Yeah, cause it's their job to be paranoid like that
<bart416> Keep in mind americans are paranoid about just about anything
<azonenberg> Yeah, but there are folks out there who give us a reason to :p
<bart416> That's what you think
<bart416> The fact is that most people don't give a damn if you leave them alone
<bart416> And all that drama through new services, not helping, not true either
<azonenberg> You mean the farce that is airline security?
<bart416> no, in general
<bart416> "oimg ... is going to kill all of us"
<bart416> where ... is the latest hype in something
<bart416> usually something related to global warming on a quiet day
<bart416> then it's terrorists
<bart416> then it's bankers
<azonenberg> I just subscribe to the opinion that sometimes a little paranoia can be justified
<bart416> then it's protesters
<bart416> then it's immigrants
<azonenberg> But not taken to extremes
<azonenberg> At the same time, it helps to know more about the threats
<azonenberg> And it's pretty well known that the PRC wants data
<azonenberg> on us companies
<azonenberg> and will do just about anything to get it
<azonenberg> So i would say that it's a very real threat
<bart416> And do you really think they have trouble getting it being that all your production has been outsourced to china...
<azonenberg> Not at all lol
<azonenberg> Which is a problem :p
<azonenberg> Thats a reason some high security designs are using FPGAs
<azonenberg> because its very hard to backdoor them when you dont know what's going to run on them
<bart416> it's a problem when you make it one
<azonenberg> especially given randomize place-and-route etc
<azonenberg> what do you mean? They want to sell counterfeit copies of stuff
<azonenberg> and get data to keep track on their citizens
<bart416> You know, the paranoia is actually more likely to cause problems than the actual "problem"?
<bart416> The entire intelligence community should gtfo and get a life
<bart416> And so should all people for that matter who think they have some sort of rightous cause
<bart416> Cause they don't
<soul-d> meh just make a panic button and a termite charge
<soul-d> try to read data back from that
<soul-d> or jsut wget the whole internet as noise im scared of the stuff i have on my pc
<soul-d> but i don't know if i want to get caught week ago i found a book on chemical warfare :') for example
<azonenberg> My school library has one of those
<azonenberg> And a termite charge? Hmm
<azonenberg> So when it explodes all the wood within 50 feet gets eaten?
<azonenberg> ;)
<soul-d> just enough to melt your ip :)
<azonenberg> no, i mean you said termite, not thermite :p
<azonenberg> as in the bugs
<soul-d> heh maybe if you have lots of paperwork
<soul-d> downloaded a giant library once so just search pc for books like on mems 5+ books or so :D but thats all nm talk :(
<soul-d> maybe small talk was better word play
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