azonenberg changed the topic of #homecmos to: Homebrew CMOS and MEMS foundry design | Wiki: | Repository: | Logs:
<john_cephalopoda> So I should set it up? Which git hosting solution would be preferred?
<pie__> do we actually have anyone who can set the topic?
<john_cephalopoda> Nope. If we can't reach the founder, we will have to create a new channel.
<pie__> i dont know who the founder is but i think i know someone who might have ops
<john_cephalopoda> The founder is azonenberg.
<john_cephalopoda> Last online about a month ago.
<john_cephalopoda> And, as far as I can tell, the only person who can get op through chanserv in this channel.
<pie__> oh, yeah hes online right now just a different nick, waiting for him to reply if he'll give ops to someone
<john_cephalopoda> Ah, nice.
<john_cephalopoda> Which platform would you prefer for git? gitlab? Something else?
<pie__> i dunno i used git but htne microsoft bought it and i havent created an account anywhere else yet :P
<pie__> so i guess just ignore me
<john_cephalopoda> Microsoft bought it, but its rules and practices haven't changed yet.
<john_cephalopoda> And it's not like git is hard to migrate.
<john_cephalopoda> So my proposal would be to use github for wiki contribution for now. If microsoft does something stupid or a better solution appears, migrating will be very simple.
<john_cephalopoda> pie__: So - have you got a github account?
<pie__> john_cephalopoda, nope, ill just get someone else to push things for me ;P
<john_cephalopoda> We can also use gitlab if you'd prefer it.
<pie__> i dont have a gitlab eiher, idk
<pie__> jn__, ^ :P
<pie__> jn__, i hereby make the results of choosing a service your fault :P
<pie__> jn__, pick something :P
<john_cephalopoda> Hmm, soft lithography looks like a nice thing. It would basically be possible to create several stamps from one template, pack them and send them to interested people via mail.
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<jn__> pie__: should i feel like Brian (in Life Of Brian) when people suddenly start following him? :P
<jn__> anyway, on mostly cosmetic grounds i prefer over
<jn__> (but i will note that i've never contributed to the homecmos idea, except by idling in this irc channel)
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<john_cephalopoda> jn__: It's his shoe!
<john_cephalopoda> jn__: Only the true messiah would deny that he's the messiah! ;þ
<john_cephalopoda> pie__, jn__: Should I create a github organisation for homecmos?
<pie__> well, why not i guess
<pie__> i wonder where noxz ran off to
<jn__> john_cephalopoda: sounds good
<john_cephalopoda> Ok, what are your user names on github?
<john_cephalopoda> I'll add you to the organisation directly if you want. I can do it also later, if that's wanted.
<john_cephalopoda> :D
<john_cephalopoda> Damn, I named it wrong *facepalm*
<john_cephalopoda> Now, there it is.
<pie__> lol
<john_cephalopoda> We need a logo.
<john_cephalopoda> How about a CMOS chip in a snail shell?
<pie__> because we're super fucking slow right? x'D
<john_cephalopoda> That, too :þ
<john_cephalopoda> In German, the shell is called "Schneckenhaus", literally "snail house", but I guess the pun doesn't work that well in English.
<john_cephalopoda> Or have you got any better idea? :þ
<pie__> no :pp
<pie__> but i dont see the pun
<pie__> im guessing it has to do with the home in homecmos
<john_cephalopoda> Yep,.
<pie__> theyre called snail houses in english too...
<john_cephalopoda> Huh, didn't find the word "house" anywhere on the wiki page.
<pie__> oh wait im dumb lol
<pie__> its also snail house in hungarian
<pie__> i think i mixed it up xD
<john_cephalopoda> You're from Hungary?
<pie__> oh ok i guess i get it its a visual pun thing with the snail shell being the "home" thing
<pie__> yeah
<john_cephalopoda> I know an art teacher from Budapest, he is working on an animated TV show called "Budapest Spaceport" :D:
<john_cephalopoda> *:D
<pie__> huh. sounds interesting :p
<pie__> idk if you could somehow turn the snail shell into an @ as well, so like, cmos @ home :P
<pie__> that might be too obscure
<john_cephalopoda> Could work, I'll start drawing in a minute.
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<john_cephalopoda> Quick sketch.
<john_cephalopoda> jn__: ^
<pie__> john_cephalopoda, omg haha thats way better than i expected
<pie__> the "teeth" are cute xD
<pie__> i love it
<pie__> will it work downscaled though?
<john_cephalopoda> I think it should. Also I will convert it to an svg drawing, so it will scale to all sizes.
<pie__> rarrrr
<john_cephalopoda> pie__: <-- Look, it works good, even at resolutions down to 200x200.
<pie__> yay
<pie__> i cant get over the DIP snail ...jaw? though...its just too good xD
<john_cephalopoda> :D
<john_cephalopoda> It's CMOS, it _had_ to contain a DIP :D
<pie__> yeah
<john_cephalopoda> It's the official github organisation profile picture now.
<pie__> now we are capable of being taken seriously >:D
<pie__> :P
<pie__> ad a bigger picture to the wiki readme :P
<john_cephalopoda> Yup, I will upload the vector graphic logo to the wiki repo in a minute.
<pie__> soon: 3d printed version
<pie__> but it will not be complete till it ends up on a chip
<john_cephalopoda> Yes.
<john_cephalopoda> Unfortunately inkscape did stupid things and now the image is nowhere to be found...
<pie__> D:
<pie__> i saved the png but its just a png
<pie__> time to shift through shitloads of photorec output :P or redo
<pie__> :C
<john_cephalopoda> pie__: I drew it as pixel graphic, saved as png, converted it to vector by hand, converted that to png, lost the svg.
<pie__> xD noess~
<john_cephalopoda> Now I took the rasterized vectorized raster grahic and vectorized it to get a vectorized rastorized vectorized image of a raster image.
<john_cephalopoda> It's done!
<john_cephalopoda> pie__, jn__ ^
<pie__> xD
<pie__> " but will commence shortly. but will commence shortly." i find this unlikely :P
<pie__> shoudl probably just say something like has been generally an unfocused project but an interested community exists
<pie__> also probably mention the irc channel
<pie__> idk
<john_cephalopoda> I just wanted to get the basic information and the logo up.
<jn__> nice logo!
<john_cephalopoda> Thanks :D
<john_cephalopoda> Hmm, have you been able to reach Andrew Zonenberg yet?
<pie__> inb4 john_cephalopoda always wanted to do this but he had to wait for the last wiki to go down
<pie__> ah, let me poke him again, he seemed busy last time
<jn__> join ##openfpga, that's where azonenberg idles
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<gruetzkopf> (and don't be confused by the channel name, discussion drifts really far)
<john_cephalopoda> Hey azonenberg_work
<azonenberg_work> o/
<azonenberg_work> sorry for being AFK for so long, kinda forgot this channel existed :p
<john_cephalopoda> azonenberg_work: I've set up a new wiki, which uses markdown, on github:
<azonenberg_work> i'm in the middle of a year-long renovation of a house i bought
<john_cephalopoda> (Together with a github organisation).
<azonenberg_work> Hoping to have a funcitional lab once i get to that point
<john_cephalopoda> Nice.
<azonenberg_work> getting an actual ductless fume hood and everything
<azonenberg_work> So i want to try playing more with fab after i take care of some infrastructure work
<john_cephalopoda> I haven't got any expecience with CMOS and ICs yet, I just thought it might be an interesting thing to experiment with.
<azonenberg_work> balrog: can you update the topic to have the new wiki?
<balrog> fwiw I'm not a fan of github wiki for a few reasons, but that's ok
<john_cephalopoda> balrog: It is not really a github wiki, it's just a bunch of markdown files hosted on github (for now).
<john_cephalopoda> I'll probably write a script to pull that repo from time to time and generate a static wiki from it.
balrog changed the topic of #homecmos to: Homebrew CMOS and MEMS foundry design | Wiki: | Repositories: | Logs:
<john_cephalopoda> Thanks, balrog.
<azonenberg_work> john_cephalopoda: So, my plan was to start by trying to develop a metal-free lithography process
<azonenberg_work> Don't even do any etching
<azonenberg_work> Just try to get photoresist patterns down to a reasonably small size
<john_cephalopoda> That's a good idea.
<azonenberg_work> on a scrap silicon substrate
<azonenberg_work> you can just strip resist and repeat over and over
<azonenberg_work> This will basically involve building a mask aligner of some sort
<azonenberg_work> I'll be buying pre-made masks from to start
<azonenberg_work> They offer plastic film masks with 3um lambda / 12um design rule
<azonenberg_work> Which is small enough for starting out
<john_cephalopoda> So after having a sufficiently small pattern etched into photoresist, what will be the next steps?
<azonenberg_work> Figure out a way of vacuum depositing metal
<azonenberg_work> This will involve me getting a working vacuum pump and building probably a filament evaporator
<azonenberg_work> Then try to do patterns in metal on a silicon substrate (again, no active circuitry)
<azonenberg_work> once that's done i want to break with the tradition of making transistors
<azonenberg_work> and focus on the BEOL and packaging side
<azonenberg_work> Take a wafer, coat with spin-on glass
<azonenberg_work> coat with metal, pattern the metal into a resistor shape or something
<azonenberg_work> Coat with more SOG
<azonenberg_work> etch contact windows into the SOG over the metal
<azonenberg_work> then drop a solder ball and tiny bit of flux onto each "bond pad"
<azonenberg_work> and try flip-chip bonding the die to a PCB
<john_cephalopoda> Interesting. I haven't looked much at that part of IC fab yet.
<john_cephalopoda> Until now I only knew about wire bonding.
<azonenberg_work> i think DIY WLCSP-BGA is an easier strategy
<azonenberg_work> no special tooling required
<azonenberg_work> just buy some solder balls and flux
<azonenberg_work> tweezers, reflow oven
<azonenberg_work> You need to be able to do overglass and glass lithography for the IC itself anyway
<azonenberg_work> so it doesnt need any new processes or tools
<john_cephalopoda> The process of creating very small structures with photoresist might also be of interest in conjunction with soft lithography.
<john_cephalopoda> Photoresist structures could be created on basically any flat (and cheap) surface. No silicone required. When it's done, it can be used as the master to make soft lithography stamps.
<pie__> silicone != silicon
<pie__> just to be pedantic because of the channel we're in :P
<john_cephalopoda> You neither need silicone nor silicon :þ
<azonenberg_work> john_cephalopoda: yeah but a blank 2-inch wafer is relatively inexpensive
<azonenberg_work> and super flat
<azonenberg_work> So a good test sample
<azonenberg_work> also round so easy to spin coat
<azonenberg_work> That reminds me i wanted to build a new spin coater
<azonenberg_work> my old one was awful
<azonenberg_work> New one will probably be a computer fan with the blades dremeled off to reduce inertia and undesired airfloiw
<azonenberg_work> then a little controller around it to monitor speed and do acceleration ramps etc
<john_cephalopoda> Hm, yeah, price for the wafer is quite ok.
<pie__> nah dude we need homecmos on 450mm
<pie__> :P
<john_cephalopoda> You'd need a 1500$ wafer for a single transistor :þ
<john_cephalopoda> (Ok, a 2" wafer should do)
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<qu1j0t3> pie__: Well hello
<jn__> hi!
<pie__> hai
<john_cephalopoda> Hey
<qu1j0t3> i must have forgotten this channel exists.
<qu1j0t3> but i can't let pie__ have all the fun.
<john_cephalopoda> This channel has forgotten that it exists.
<pie__> ^
<john_cephalopoda> But now it apparently remembered.
<pie__> dont let john_cephalopoda stop talking
* jn__ remembered that Sam Zeloof's work exists
<pie__> yes
<pie__> im busy i will let other people start collecting a bibliography :P
<pie__> or the moment
<jn__> google code is totally broken
<jn__> >401: Anonymous caller does not have storage.objects.get access to google-code-archive/v2/
<john_cephalopoda> jn__: All stuff is available still.
<jn__> ah, good
<jn__> ... where?
<azonenberg_work> jn__: yeah there are archives floating around and i have a checkout of the repo with the old lab notes floating around on my NAS
<azonenberg_work> (in a cardboard box downstairs waiting for me to finish painting my new lab and get the bolts to put the rack into the floor
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<pie__> Noxz, much better :P
<Noxz> watchmaking school starts in 19 days
<pie__> also iirc sync had a clue about things? dont see him either
<Noxz> last day of work was yesterday
<pie__> woo
<pie__> counting down the days
<Noxz> well, I have a countdown clock...
<pie__> *rolls eyes* haha of course xD
<pie__> gonna be too many clocks in that house i thikn
<Noxz> said clock
<pie__> so you missed the snail john_cephalopoda made in the wiki topic
<Noxz> ??
<gruetzkopf> i'm boring. my favourite clock is the DCF disciplined Rb 10MHz oscillator with the 7-seg display down to 100µs
<Noxz> why is it a snail?
<pie__> oh geez thanks github
<pie__> Noxz, because the channel is slow :P
<pie__> jk
<Noxz> i figured somethign along those lines, but wasnt so sure
<pie__> lol
<pie__> so its not just me
<pie__> sorry john_cephalopoda :D
<pie__> Noxz, its actually supposed to be because the snail has its house on its back
<pie__> sort of
<pie__> its called a "snail house" in some languages
<gruetzkopf> it's a joke that works better in other european languages
<Noxz> ah
<pie__> im going to keep joking that the channel is slow