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<Naergon>
what about clojure? It seems to be able to compile for android's command line, its free and its more popukar. Whats the drawback?
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<pjb>
Naergon: it's not a Common Lisp library, therefore it's not on topic. This channel is reserved for Common Lisp discussion.
<pjb>
Naergon: try ##lisp or #clojure.
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<Naergon>
Thanks
<pjb>
Naergon: notice that you could implement a CL library exporting most of Clojure features. Then you could discuss it and its conforming implementation here.
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<emaczen>
Naergon: Clojure isn't general enough, CL has more multiparadigm features so that you can select/implement the paradigm best suited for your problem
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<Naergon>
emaczen: yeah, i see, lisp can deal with mutable data (c-style) better
<emaczen>
Naergon: Object Oriented programming too
<emaczen>
function programming is really good too, and you can implement pretty much anything (any paradigm) you would want with macros too
<emaczen>
You can even do metaprogramming with the object system
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<sigjuice>
I have downloaded all the releases provided by quicklisp. I frequently grep through all of ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/. Any suggestions on what I might do to speed this up or otherwise do this better? My computer is old and slow :/
<Bike>
uninstall things
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<sigjuice>
downloading all of quicklisp is deliberate
<sigjuice>
I like to have everything for offline use
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<Bike>
fgrep?
<emaczen>
right a customized program to make searching faster instead of grepping
<emaczen>
write*
<k-hos>
get a better computer
<k-hos>
:>
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<sigjuice>
k-hos I would like a better computer. It is not within my means at the moment :|
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<aeth>
you only need an SSD, not an entirely new computer
<aeth>
or is grep CPU-bound?
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<aeth>
hmm... I get about 10% CPU usage when grepping for 'defmethod foo' (surprisingly, this exists! and defun foo also exists and is a lot more common!)
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<sigjuice>
yes. looks like a lot of 'defun foo', a lot of it in test code.
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<aeth>
I hope they're all tests
<sigjuice>
time grep -sr 'defun foo' . => real 1m37.537s, user 0m33.024s, sys 0m8.682s
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<pillton>
Why do you frequently grep through all of the software?
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<sigjuice>
my ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ directory is 1.3G. This includes all of the latest dist and some partial older dists.
<aeth>
That's not bad at all
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<aeth>
Although I suspect the total size of everything on Quicklisp (not counting old versions) grows faster than linearly over time.
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<sigjuice>
I'm not so sure about that, but it should be easy to get the exact figures
<aeth>
There's no upper limit on libraries for doing the exact same thing, and there's plenty of justifications for new libraries. Especially performance.
<aeth>
I wouldn't be surprised if most libraries in Quicklisp couldn't be replaced by something considerably faster.
<aeth>
And the older projects will add features, tests, examples, documentation (hah), etc.
<sigjuice>
for my own petty needs, performance doesn't even make the list. I need things to 1. be correct 2. something I can understand easily
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<aeth>
I've been experimenting with correctness. It seems to work well enough that I'll start slowly moving everything to this new style.
<aeth>
Verifying things *in* macros is neat.
<aeth>
Compile time errors rather than run time errors.
<Bike>
what exactly does this entail
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<shrdlu68>
Where in the clhs is the documentation for the (defun (setf foo)... form?
<Bike>
"function-name---a function name." "function name n. 2. A symbol or a list (setf symbol)."
<Bike>
maybe you mean something else? like how setf functions are called in macroexpansions of setf?
<aeth>
Bike: Well, macros can only verify structural things and simple atoms, unfortunately, afaik. I can probably move more into compile time. A lot more.
<aeth>
Bike: But it basically entails possibly doubling the size of the code, and a runtime cost at startup (that I can't really notice) for the stuff that can't be checked at compile time.
<Bike>
i meant like
<Bike>
"what are you doing"
<Bike>
"can i see an example"
<shrdlu68>
Bike: I'm looking for where exactly one places the new place in the lambda list.
<Bike>
first
<Bike>
(setf (foo bar baz) v) => (funcall #'(setf foo) v bar baz)
<aeth>
Bike: Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near done yet.
<Bike>
oh
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<shrdlu68>
I see, thanks.
<shrdlu68>
I still don't know where exactly in the docs this info is, though.
<jack_rabbit>
smokeink, Yeah. I need to figure out how to handle this.
<jack_rabbit>
smokeink, There's a mix of encodings going on, and it's not always apparent which is which.
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<razzy>
jack_rabbit: i very much like gopher :]
<jack_rabbit>
:) me too.
<razzy>
everything is file ideology :]
<razzy>
:D
<razzy>
and forced view structure is feature, not a bug, imho :]
<fe[nl]ix>
razzy: please don't misuse the word "ideology"
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<phoe>
oh
<phoe>
ELS deadline extended
<phoe>
does it mean that they are still looking for more papers?
<loke>
Don't they extend every year?
<phoe>
Why, though?
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<beach>
It has become a tradition for all CS conferences.
<flip214>
phoe: tradition
<beach>
So people now expect it.
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<flip214>
beach: that alone would be a good reason _not_ to do it, at least once ;)
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<beach>
It would take some courage on the part of the program chair.
<phoe>
Hah, I see.
<flip214>
well, it's easy to chicken out a few days later (if there are too few papers, or too much protest) and say "just joking, ship 'em in", too
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<phoe>
"oh we actually extended but forgot to announce it"
<phoe>
(:
<flip214>
phoe: no, not exactly. In order to get people to submit sooner there has to be some negative point before...
<flip214>
actually it's much easier to announce a date a week earlier first, and then revise.
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<phoe>
flip214: I see.
<beach>
So, maybe I should submit another paper. :)
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<phoe>
beach: go for it!
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<krwq>
does anyone by any chance have mappings from linux's open flags to CL's open arguments (direction if-exists if-does-not-exist)? (or the other way) - I'm interested in all cases not a specific configuration
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<flip214>
krwq: no easy relation. :supersede may involve a temp file and a rename, for example. :rename-and-delete likewise.
<krwq>
flip214: is there at least mostly working relation?
<krwq>
flip214: or any valid relation
<flip214>
I know of no such list. Perhaps SBCL or ECL sources can help, though.
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<flip214>
krwq: but perhaps I can help better if you answer the question "what are you trying to achieve?"
<krwq>
flip214: implementing file system in CL - currently playing with fuse but may port to windows one day
<krwq>
The goal is that I can eventually create something like *file-system* and could change open to use i.e. virtual file system or capture all system calls but also could mount the same virtual file system to a physical one
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<shrdlu68>
I wish to create a function with a variable foo such that foo will refer to the current lexical binding. How do I achieve this, if possible?
<shrdlu68>
Not a closure - foo is undefined at the moment of creation.
<shrdlu68>
And not a special variable - foo does not have a global binding.
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<shrdlu68>
I fear I do not make much sense.
<lieven>
shrdlu68: a macro refering to foo might be the easiest way
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<shrdlu68>
lieven: I can't quite figure out what the expansion would look like.
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<shrdlu68>
Hmm, perhaps &environment?
<flip214>
shrdlu68: "lexical binding" is a term used during the compilation process. during runtime you don't "see" that any more.
<lieven>
nah. that's something else.
<flip214>
(unless you compile that knowledge in, see the various macros in let-over-lambda)
<lieven>
say you we're going to call your function returning lexical foo
<lieven>
just put all the code that uses the result of that function into a macro
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<beach>
shrdlu68: Can you give an example of use case for what you want?
<shrdlu68>
flip214: To be clear: (defun foo (a) (+ a b)). "b" here is undefined. How do I make it refer to whatever b is lexically bound where #'foo is called?
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<beach>
shrdlu68: You can't.
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<beach>
shrdlu68: Luckily.
<beach>
shrdlu68: If you could do that, no significant compiler optimization would be possible.
<shrdlu68>
I've never seen it done, admittedly.
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<beach>
The immediate question that comes to mind is "why on earth would you want to do such a thing?"
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<shrdlu68>
beach: Trying to use custom hash table test and hash function. SBCL requires that the test be created beforehand, and a hash function registered with sb-ext:define-hash-table-test.
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<beach>
I don't see the connection. It is not important I guess.
<shrdlu68>
In the test function, I refer to an object that is available later when the hash table is being created. I could simply declare this object special and be done with it.
<shrdlu68>
But I thought I'd try something clever.
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<beach>
OK, here is an example of why this is a terrible idea: Say you call MAPCAR with some function F defined like you want, so (defun f (a) (+ a b)). You call MAPCAR from a function G that defines the lexical binding for B, so you think you will bet that value in F. Unfortunately, MAPCAR also has a lexical binding B, so you get the wrong value.
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<beach>
Pretty much all software would break randomly if this mechanism were possible.
<lieven>
some languages have similar mechanisms
<shrdlu68>
I see.
<beach>
Well, we have special variables for that purpose.
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<shrdlu68>
Alternatively, I could create the hash test and function after the object is available, making the tests closures.
<shrdlu68>
beach: Still, isn't it possible to see b being created in mapcar and "shadow" the value of b?
<loke>
shrdlu68: Now I know what your nick is all about :-)
<beach>
shrdlu68: Yes, and so all software that calls MAPCAR would have to know how the person implementing it decided to name the lexical variables.
<beach>
shrdlu68: And that choice would be different in different implementations, making portable software impossible.
<TMA>
the really old lisps had it that way, because they did not have lexical binding at all
<beach>
Indeed.
<shrdlu68>
loke: Terry Winograd's blocks-building natural language understanding program, or a linotype that gains sentience in some SF short story.
<beach>
shrdlu68: It is just the relative frequency of letters in English ETAOINSHRDLU.
<shrdlu68>
beach: That too.
<loke>
I assumed it was the AI project
<shrdlu68>
beach: I can't help but think: this ought to work, somewhow, by the same mechanism that dynamic variable work. Anyway, I probably need to to give all this some more thought.
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<loke>
There is some effort being done right now in resurrecting that piece of software. It's complicacated as it's using a bunch of ad-hoc hardware
<beach>
shrdlu68: It can't work.
<loke>
It was discussed last week on the ITS hackers mailinglist.
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<beach>
shrdlu68: When the compiler compiles a function, it turns lexical variables into registers and stack locations. The name is lost for all purposes except debugging.
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<razzy>
fe[nl]ix: my use of ideology was well justified imho?
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<tfb>
shrdlu68: note that you can use dynamic variables without requiring global bindings
<tfb>
(or, rather, toplevel bindings)
<shrdlu68>
tfb: Understood.
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<jmercouris>
I've been at the point several times where I've felt like just rewriting the software from scratch, but I think it's a good exercise to slowly refactor it instead
<jmercouris>
it more mimics what has to happen with real software in a production environment
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<jasom>
minion: memo for drmeister: besides cl-yacc, by memory there is zebu, yalalr, and and buffalo; yalalr wraps a LALR parser that someone else wrote to give it a yacc-like workflow.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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<pjb>
jmercouris: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:include-file
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<fourier>
Ah I see these not a references to academic publications, just ordinary references..
<Shinmera>
Well ideally you'd have references to other papers
<Shinmera>
But for a demo that can be hard to come by.
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<Shinmera>
and, well, since I'm sure you have quite a few other papers to compete with, the better the references, the higher the chances of acceptance :)
<Shinmera>
among other factors of course
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<fourier>
yes I see. still it looks if one just implements a library and want to show it off, probably lightning talk is enough. I'm planning to travel as a participant but thinking about presenting maybe something so I dont just listen
<Shinmera>
Sure, a lightning talk is a great way to quickly bring something out and try presenting in front of people.
<Shinmera>
I've done one every year so far.
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<fourier>
you are quite productive with amount of code :)
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<Shinmera>
For some reason I have a very easy time doing everything but paying attention during a lecture.
<Shinmera>
So university has been great in that regard, heh
<fourier>
:thumbs_up: ;)
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<jmercouris>
Shinmera: it's a form of procrastination, I have the same problem
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<fourier>
yep then I was a student the most brilliant ideas I had were typically the night before the exam
<fourier>
which demanded immediate implementation of course
<jmercouris>
lol, that's one of the reasons I enjoy being in school, it's a good way to focus on other things :D
<Shinmera>
jmercouris: I don't think it's procrastination. It's not that I don't want to be there or don't want to pay attention. I just get tremendously bored very quickly. Lord knows I've tried paying attention.
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<jmercouris>
Maybe not, so far you haven't said anything that is inconsistent with how it is for me
<aeth>
Procrastination is a wonderful way to be productive, assuming that you still have time to do the procrastinated task.
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<jmercouris>
I literally cannot pay attention during lectures, I can only read from the books, and I have motivation for everything but homework
<aeth>
for me, it depends on the subject
<fourier>
and on lecturer
<aeth>
Mathematics... is never lectured properly.
<aeth>
I don't even know why math lectures exist. Just give a big set of readings and problems.
<jmercouris>
procrastination doesn't exactly mean that you don't want to pay attention or that you aren't interested, just that you are putting it off for some reason
<jmercouris>
so I'm ql:quickload'ing :usocket
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<jmercouris>
but when I go to use it, I have issues
<aeth>
But, anyway, my most productive Lisp day in 2 months was because I was procrastinating something yesterday. :-)
<jmercouris>
something like (usocket:socket-server "127.0.0.1" 8080 #'default-tcp-handler) results in [Condition of type CCL::UNDEFINED-FUNCTION-CALL]
<aeth>
You can use the procrastination of a higher priority thing to be very productive in a lower priority thing, and thus still accomplish something.
<jmercouris>
aeth: that's it exactly!
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<aeth>
Just stay away from Reddit and Hacker News.
<aeth>
And Wikipedia and TV Tropes
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<aeth>
And YouTube
<aeth>
Endless sinks of time.
<jmercouris>
not sure what's going on as usocket:socket-server is suggested by company in slime
<jmercouris>
so clearly somehow it knows about the existence, but it also doesn't show the appropriate var I'm editing in the echo area
<phoe>
jmercouris: no
<phoe>
#'usocket:socket-listen
<phoe>
the fact that it is suggested in slime does not mean it has to be a function
<aeth>
jmercouris: Videos and podcasts seem to be the most profitable parts of Patreon, though.
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<aeth>
A Lisp video or podcast series might be more profitable than actually directly funding Lisp software
<jmercouris>
probably for most lisp software yeah
<aeth>
I think it works because of regular releases of new content, and the potential for trivial premium features (just release your content a week earlier to subscribers)
<jmercouris>
or special tutorials for them
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<allm7ght>
in general is there a reason to choose cffi or uffi over the other?
<phoe>
allm7ght: cffi is much more widely used.
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<allm7ght>
phoe: thanks!
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<stacksmith>
I thought uffi was obsoleted by cffi. Is it used in any modern code?
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<phoe>
I think not.
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<jackdaniel>
uffi, as a protocol, is widely used - some software has migrated to use cffi-uffi-compat and ECL's ffi implements this protocol as well
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<jackdaniel>
but for all practical purposes you should depend on cffi (because 1) it has compat layer for uffi, 2) is a portability layer which uses ecl's uffi implementation)
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<fourier>
it is used in ncursers wrapper which is quite mature
<fourier>
cl-ncurses
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<fourier>
not sure if cl-charms is of the same level of maturity now.
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<jmercouris>
anyone have a minimal example of how to use usocket?
<jmercouris>
I was trying to parse shinmera's code and I was getting confused
<jmercouris>
this is very helpful
<phoe>
remember to #'socket-close sockets afterwards
<phoe>
or just close their socket-streams.
<jmercouris>
ok, I'll keep that in mind
<jmercouris>
what if my program dies
<jmercouris>
and the socket is still open, what then?
<jmercouris>
aka kill -9
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<phoe>
jmercouris: your program dies, what do you mean?
<phoe>
kill -9 clears all sockets
<phoe>
when a process dies, all sockets it has created are destroyed by the OS
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<jmercouris>
ok, that sounds good to me then, thanks
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<sigjuice>
kill -9 should a last resort. It always makes me feel icky.
<sigjuice>
should be
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<aeth>
Is it better to do (check-type x integer) (unless (evenp x) (error "Some error!")) or (check-type x (and integer (satisfies evenp))) when verifying something?
<|3b|>
all in check-type would let a caller fix it
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<Xach>
aeth: It might be better to make a named type that describes what you want, too.
<phoe>
as in deftype even-integer? hm, yep
<aeth>
|3b|: but satisfies could be considerably more complicated than this, e.g. (find foo some-list-of-keywords)
* |3b|
isn't sure how many people actually take advantage of that though, i usually just fix code/data and try whole thing again
<Xach>
I'm guessing evenp isn't the real thing, but maybe that's a bad guess
<|3b|>
it presumably won't be more complicated when called from TYPEP than when called manually
<Xach>
phoe: actually what?
<phoe>
it is a real thing
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<Xach>
phoe: But is it the real thing aeth means, or just a simplified example?
<phoe>
aeth: yes, satisfies can be much more complicated, but in this case it should do well enough with CHECK-TYPE
<aeth>
|3b|: Well, if it's (and keyword (satisfies foo)) then foo might not know that the argument to foo is a keyword, which could lead to a less efficient find
<phoe>
Xach: oh, I see.
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<|3b|>
though for that specific case, (member x (a b c)) is a valid type
<Shinmera>
aeth: Is it important that it is not a float?
<Shinmera>
Because only integers in the mathematical sense are even anyway.
<|3b|>
aeth: if that's important, and you care about callers being able to fix the problem, split it in 2 check-types?
<phoe>
Shinmera: he does a (check-type x integer) initially.
<|3b|>
(and if it actually is a problem in practice)
<Shinmera>
phoe: I can read, thanks
<phoe>
|3b|: you don't want to split it into two check-types
<|3b|>
phoe: i do if combining it is a problem
<phoe>
in the second check-type, you can supply a value that does *not* pass the first check-type
<|3b|>
true, maybe i don't :)
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<phoe>
(defun foo (x) (check-type x integer) (check-type x float))
<aeth>
Shinmera: I wanted a simple example
<|3b|>
though you could duplicate the type in the 2nd, if type inference did in fact affect performance of the 2nd test
<phoe>
you are able to restart your way out of this function and make it actually return
<aeth>
phoe: you probably want x at the end so it returns something useful(ish)
<Shinmera>
aeth: Okey. In that case I would not use check type at all, and instead have both tests in an (unless (and ..) ..)
<phoe>
aeth: yes
<Shinmera>
Mostly because I consider satisfies bad, but that's just me.
<aeth>
Shinmera: Expressing it as types could have the advantage of automatically generating the checks, though.
<aeth>
Well, in an easier way
<Shinmera>
Not if you need satisfies.
<aeth>
But that can be solved by deftype
* |3b|
probably would also not bother using check-type for something that uses satisfies, but sometimes the restart to continue with other value is useful
<Shinmera>
assert may also be appropriate depending on how you view that.
<aeth>
What I'm doing is verifying absolutely everything before I start the program so that I (ideally) do not get any runtime errors.
<Xach>
hee
<aeth>
I was tired of getting cryptic unexpected NILs in places
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<phoe>
Error: The value NIL is not a (NOT NULL)
<phoe>
Why complain about that error message? It's true, after all. Much better than a self-contradicting message.
<Bike>
check-type has that nice type string thing so it could be more comprehensible
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<aeth>
phoe: The issue is that I didn't know where that happened. If I check my data before I use my data, I know where it happens... before my program starts doing anything. This is especially important when it's using foreign libraries in another thread than the main SLIME thread.
<aeth>
Things are a lot simpler before that point.
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<_death>
could use ASSERT and specify X in the list of places
<aeth>
My current design goals are: (1) do everything at compile time if possible (including as much verification as possible) and (2) do the rest of the verification with check-type before the program begins to actually do useful computations
<aeth>
The cost of #2, at least right now, is not noticable. Although if satisfies is really slow and I pass in a lot of data, it might be.
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<aeth>
I think any big data would be in specialized arrays, though, so it probably wouldn't be much of a cost.
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<aeth>
This then introduces two issues I can see right away. When destructuring-bind fails while iterating, the error message really isn't helpful at all and is (afaik) non-portable. Also, it's not clear what to do when the constraints are more than just a simple type check, such as a keyword that must be in a valid list of keywords.
<Xach>
aeth: the keyword thing could be a MEMBER type, right?
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<aeth>
Yes, although I'm not sure about the performance implications. Usually there would be a handful, but it could be dozens, like when I check to make sure that the type is a valid GLSL type.
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<aeth>
(I'd rather get the error when generating the GLSL than when compiling the GLSL.)
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<phoe>
aeth: when do you generate and compile GLSL?
<phoe>
I mean, at what times?
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<aeth>
phoe: At the moment I turn s-expressions into strings of GLSL source code entirely at compile time in define-shader (which are, in turn, used in the source argument to make-shader, which is just make-instance 'shader)
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<aeth>
I don't do many checks at that point, though. There's definitely plenty of opportunities.
<phoe>
aeth: I don't get the difference between "generation-time" and "compile-time", then.
<aeth>
I think at the moment I only check for valid GLSL types when verifying the shader metadata (which has to be at runtime because the object is created at runtime even though the source string is generated at compile time)
<phoe>
> (I'd rather get the error when generating the GLSL than when compiling the GLSL.)
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<aeth>
although I guess if I made shader type keywords a member type, it would be trivial to use the same check at compile time, too
<aeth>
phoe: I'd rather get error messages when generating the GLSL string (at CL compile time) than when compiling the GLSL (which happens shortly after initializing OpenGL at runtime)
<aeth>
i.e. I personally check for many things that the GLSL compiler will be checking for because I'd rather deal with things in CL where possible
<phoe>
aeth: ooh, I see.
<aeth>
It will also probably make it easier to move to SPIR-V this way.
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<k-hos>
gl 4.something supports spir-v I believe
<aeth>
4.6
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<aeth>
Ideally, some future version of define-shader (the API is nowhere near stable for the shader language atm) will be able to target both GLSL and SPIR-V. And have identical semantics.
<k-hos>
glsl already compiles to spir-v
<aeth>
Yes, but if I target them both, I can eventually deprecate the GLSL backend and introduce things that GLSL cannot do but SPIR-V can (if things in that category even exist)
<aeth>
But at the moment I only target GLSL because I am using OpenGL 3.3, not 4.6
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<k-hos>
spir-v can do more than glsl yes
<k-hos>
multiple entry points being one
<aeth>
ah
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<stacksmith>
aeth: what kind of project are you working on?
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<aeth>
stacksmith: A game engine.
<stacksmith>
Great.
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