<borei>
hmm, i have delimma. i have function, in some cases argument is just number, but in some cases - list of numbers. passing list of one number - will work but doesn't look good. on the other hand doing type parsing inside function - also not elegant solution. generic function and methods on top of it ?
<attila_lendvai>
you can use (defun foo (&rest args) ...)
<emaczen>
Thanks Bike, I was confused because emacs doc made it look like documentation only for class slots
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<whoman>
oh well
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<emaczen>
How can I get a list of methods that have a particular class as a specializer?
<emaczen>
I don't see anything obvious in closer-mop
<Bike>
as a specializer in any position?
<Bike>
it's not a common operation
<emaczen>
Bike: yes
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<emaczen>
Bike: Oh wait, I think I see it as a slot for a standard-class
<Bike>
(remove-if-not (lambda (method) (find class (method-specializers method))) methods), i think
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<emaczen>
Bike: Yeah, but how do you get all the methods?
<Bike>
of a generic function?
<emaczen>
no just in general
<emaczen>
I need all methods that have as a specializer class x
<Bike>
oh, i see
<Bike>
specializer-direct-methods
<emaczen>
Bike: I just found in ccl, direct-methods is a slot for standard-class
<Bike>
specializer-direct-methods is the exported interface
<emaczen>
Bike: yep, it returns the same result
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<goreye>
Hi, I'm trying to do `(write-byte (char-code #\A) *standard-output*)` which works fine on SBCL but fails on SLIME.
<goreye>
Error is: The stream #<SWANK/GRAY::SLIME-OUTPUT-STREAM {10042AFB33}> has
<goreye>
no suitable method for STREAM-WRITE-BYTE, and so has fallen
<goreye>
through to this method.
<Bike>
standard output is probably a acharacter stream, so write byte is a problem
<goreye>
So is it different from the standard-output of sbcl? Some wrapper provided by Slime?
<Bike>
slime wraps, yes.
<goreye>
Any way I can test write-bytes on stdout? Though I'm writing the function for generic streams, but I'm testing it on standard output
<goreye>
Noob here, just in case :)
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<stacksmith>
goreye: pls go to #clnoobs
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<nydel>
at sdf.org pubnix we try to build sbcl for all users on netbsd8. if there is any special bsd unix instructions, the system op wants me to pass them on. thanks in advance if you know anything!
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<emaczen>
how do I find a generic-function given a name?
<Bike>
fdefinition
<emaczen>
Bike: strange that it is not find-generic-function or find-function
<Bike>
why would it be
<Bike>
generic functions are just functions
<emaczen>
because we have find-class and find-method
<emaczen>
I said "or" becuase I thought so
<Bike>
those names actually arenj't great because they're also setfs
<Bike>
well, find class is
<Bike>
find method is not
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<Guest16495>
pjb, sjl, Shinmera: thank you for the answers about ctrl-c in cl-charms/curses development. `stty intr undef` was the magic i needed!
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<jack_rabbit>
'morning!
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<nydel>
jack_rabbit: thanks for asking! we got 1.4.1 up on the meta-array which is a red-hat-like linux 2.2 kernel. all my programs work!
<jack_rabbit>
YES!
<nydel>
but the cluster (the main place - about 5 or 6 machines with a shared user filesystem) runs NetBSD8
<nydel>
in fact we're the only live beta of netbsd8. the developers are working on the kernel from 7 on our system. so i guess it is proving difficult to easily install SBCL on the bsd system for all users
<nydel>
i'm hoping to find some existing documentation on bsd-specific sbcl building or to begin creating such a thing as we go
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<jack_rabbit>
I know clisp is currently running there. Having an updated version of that might be easier?
<jack_rabbit>
The clisp there is (oddly) new enough that I was able to load asdf3 into it and actually compile stuff from quicklisp, which I was not able to do with the old SBCL on MA.
<nydel>
savvy jack_rabbit ! i guess clisp can be used to build sbcl. so that's exactly what we're trying, to update clisp (we have a version from 2010! woof.) then the sbcl hopefully will follow
<jack_rabbit>
Excellent! :D
<nydel>
there is a pkgsrc entry for sbcl 1.3.1 and that is plenty current enough for the general SDF population to be using.
<nydel>
:)
<jack_rabbit>
definitely.
<jack_rabbit>
Very good. I'm excited to play with it.
<nydel>
a package i used to rely on called cl-daemonize i guess is no longer listed in quicklisp repository. it's how i backgrounded my hunchentoot-behind-apache webserver (then my sdf website would fetch sdf.org:9903, an arbitrary port running my server)
<jack_rabbit>
nydel, I usually just nohup things.
<jack_rabbit>
I think that works on bsd.
<nydel>
i hadn't considered that. i'd get a cool log of happenings that way as well
<nydel>
oh absolutely, i've been meaning to try that out!
<jack_rabbit>
That one's different than the one I showed you before. That one is text based and the other is built on McClim, so it's graphical.
<jack_rabbit>
Although, actually, the main branch there won't work there, since I can't load iolib on the cluster.
<jack_rabbit>
My test branch 'iolib->usocket+flexi-streams' should work.
<nydel>
in an ideal world, a person simply does ./cl-gopher-start.sh from the command line yes?
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<jack_rabbit>
ideally, yes.
<nydel>
or would a lisp person load this up in a slime instance
<jack_rabbit>
This thing is super alpha, though. I haven't made much effort to make it portable yet.
<jack_rabbit>
A lisp person may well load it in slime.
<jack_rabbit>
however I haven't been able to get slime working with the current clim on the cluster.
<jack_rabbit>
s/clim/clisp/
<jack_rabbit>
cl-gopher:text-browser is the function to start the interactive browser, though.
<nydel>
right away the lsh script gives "system cl-gopher not found" a quicklisp error ... huh
<jack_rabbit>
Yeah, you need to manually (load "/some/path/to/cl-gopher.asd") first.
<jack_rabbit>
Then you should be able to quickload it.
<nydel>
ah that's good
<jack_rabbit>
(provided you have loaded asdf3 and quicklisp. :)
<nydel>
i mean it's better than "what?"
<jack_rabbit>
haha
<nydel>
yes quicklisp is up to date and asdf3 & 2 ... let me get cl-gopher in my quicklisp local real quick
<nydel>
is placing the git repo in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ the way to do this?
<nydel>
i've gotten so spoiled by quicklisp doing everything so easily hehe
<jack_rabbit>
Not sure. That might work! It doesn't matter where you place it if you manually load the .asd file.
<nydel>
right. i'll back off the scripts for a minute and just load it up
<jack_rabbit>
putting it in local-projects might make the manual load unnecessary.
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<nydel>
that was the idea. and the script progressed quite a ways before running into a very long foreign interface problem that i'm just now looking into
<jack_rabbit>
nydel, Yes! That's probably because you checked out the main branch.
<jack_rabbit>
coming from iolib?
<nydel>
it's to do with iolib and grovel, the ffi error
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<jack_rabbit>
Yes. iolib requires libfixposix. Instead, check out the 'iolib->usocket+flexi-streams' branch.
<jack_rabbit>
(sorry about the horrible branch name, which requires quoting)
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<dundee>
If I were to make a purely functional lisp, would it still be possible to read in code from imperative languages like C via macros?
<phoe>
dundee: what do you mean, "read in code"?
<dundee>
make a syntax for C and then compile it
<phoe>
functional paradigm is equivalent to the imperative one, everything computable in one is computable in the other and vice versa.
<phoe>
so you can write C-reading macros in either of them and compile them into something that you can execute.
<nydel>
i'm trying on my local machine (not part of SDF) in a slime. having put cl-gopher in quicklisp local-projects, i get a halt at iolib. so i must need to install iolib, with which i am not familiar.
<nydel>
this is a debian machine, should iolib be something i retrieve by hand, with a lisp, from linux repo?
<phoe>
so you can do even the blasphemy of grabbing a purely imperative language like C and compile it into a purely functional language like your hypothetical Lisp.
<phoe>
At a big cost, but you'll do it, sure thing.
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<jack_rabbit>
nydel, No, iolib is a common-lisp library. However, it depends on libfixposix, which you should be able to install with 'apt-get libfixposix'
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<jack_rabbit>
nydel, alternatively, check out the other branch on my cl-gopher repo.
<jack_rabbit>
'apt-get install libfixposix' even
<dundee>
phoe: but you can do all sorts of data mutation in C functions, for loops, and other control structures. I'm sure any sufficiently smart compiler could optimize a naive translation (see: GHC, Stalin Scheme), but would a set of naive translations consistently produce legal lisp?
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<nydel>
do i read the other branch correctly as you're moving away from iolib to use usocket?
<jack_rabbit>
nydel, That's correct.
<phoe>
dundee: it doesn't matter. in imperative programmming, mutable state is contained everywhere; in functional programming, functional state is isolated and contained in function arguments.
<jack_rabbit>
sorry, I could have been clearer about that.
<nydel>
let's try that then first. i feel like since i haven't used iolib it is probably something i need to spend an hour or two getting learned on.
<phoe>
in imperative programming, you mutate this global state; in functional programming, you change the arguments passed from function to function.
<jack_rabbit>
nydel, sounds good! :)
<phoe>
functions are directly translatable to functional programming, loops can be transformed into recursion, other control structures, like switches, can be turned into pattern matching.
<phoe>
and right now I consider only the *possibility* - yes, it is possible. I do not consider whether it's *feasible*.
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<phoe>
and here is where the countless optimizations kick in.
<jack_rabbit>
Assignment can be captured via some closure magic, I believe.
<phoe>
jack_rabbit: or just returning a new state object from a function.
<jack_rabbit>
sure.
<phoe>
(assign state var new-value) ;=> new-state
<phoe>
and in new-state, a functional data structure, the alist or whatever now contains a mapping from var to new-value.
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<phoe>
state is equal to new-state, sans that assignment.
<jack_rabbit>
yes.
<dundee>
I suppose passing continuations from new state object returns are a way to consistently achieve what I'm thinking of.
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<nydel>
jack_rabbit: i clone the other branch (and put it in quicklisp/local-projects for good measure) ... in a slime environment, should i asdf load cl-gopher.asd, or some other action e.g. evaluate cl-gopher.lisp & client.lisp etc?
<jack_rabbit>
If it's in local-projects, all you should need to do is (ql:quickload 'cl-gopher)
<jack_rabbit>
in fact, the lsh scripts may work.
<nydel>
ah of course whoops. let's try that
<jack_rabbit>
(if you wanted to do it that way instead. No guarantees though. :) )
<nydel>
the same type of error (this is the newer branch not master) condition of type iolib/grovel:grovel::grovel-error ... which happens when apparnetly a call is made to g++
<jack_rabbit>
hmmmm :/
<jack_rabbit>
It shouldn't be trying to load iolib.
<nydel>
right? let me make sure i have the correct branch.
<nydel>
oh here is the problem (my fault) - i am not sure how to clone this branch with git. i didn't read what i coppied, it suggest the main cranch
<nydel>
i looked it up i think i see, one moment
<jack_rabbit>
should just be git checkout 'iolib->usocket+flexi-streams'
<nydel>
jack_rabbit: right i had to do clone -b "io.... you get it. i got it, quicklisp loaded and evaluated it, all set! what do i run to get going (cl-gopher:.....)?
<jack_rabbit>
(cl-gopher:text-browser)
<nydel>
working!
<nydel>
browsing the sdf gopherspace in a slime repl, this is so damn cool!
<jack_rabbit>
sweet :)
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<jack_rabbit>
Oh! and if you want to allow it to download files, you can add the keyword :allow-downloads (cl-gopher:text-browser :allow-downloads t)
<jack_rabbit>
right now it just dumps them in /tmp
<jack_rabbit>
There's currently no 'quit' option, so you just have to interrupt it with C-c C-c and return to toplevel to get out.
<nydel>
this is great jack_rabbit i'm reading new phlog entries from today and not in a "hey this a fun novelty" way but in a "this is how i prefer to do this" way
<nydel>
great job!
<jack_rabbit>
That's awesome. :)
<jack_rabbit>
Thanks!
<jack_rabbit>
It still needs quite a bit of work. Honestly, the browser was mostly an afterthought. cl-gopher's main intention is to be a protocol library that I'm going to put into clim-gopher and my yet-to-be-named gopher server.
<nydel>
i haven't seen a good clim project in a while so i'm excited to try that. there (AFAIK) aren't a lot of good true gopher GUI browsers. there are proxies and extensions for firefox etc
<jack_rabbit>
It's available and working now, if you wanted to try it out. It does need iolib currently, but I could switch that over real quick.
<nydel>
i'm right now working on getting iolib working locally (and understanding what it is/does for myself) ... just give me a little bit to poke around, i feel like this is something i should know how/why it works
<nydel>
then hopefully we can get it on the meta-array and eventually the sdf cluster
<jack_rabbit>
I just switched it anyway, sorry. :)
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<jack_rabbit>
I prefer having fewer native library dependencies.
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<nydel>
it's probably for the best especially for software that can work on multiuser systems without a lot of hassle
<jack_rabbit>
That's the hope.
<nydel>
the meta-array allows for x11 forwarding. i run 'links2 -g' on it often and sometimes firefox. tomorrow i will try to get your clim client running that way
<nydel>
oh the possibilities. if a commonlisp gopher server, you can have a multi-user repl or version control repo. what fun!
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<jack_rabbit>
nydel, Yeah! My server currently is translating news articles to plaintext, but the possibilities are large.
<phoe>
Actually not a function but a macro, since this needs to take a place.
<phoe>
If we are inserting at position 0, then this macro needs to modify the original place.
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<phoe>
Oh right, I want this operation to be destructive to avoid consing.
<jack_rabbit>
Never found one. I've been in need of one before, but ended up fudging a solution.
<phoe>
...does it mean that I will need to write it
<jack_rabbit>
I can't say definitively, but all signs I've seen point to 'yes'
<jack_rabbit>
There must be a library that has this functionality...
<phoe>
Exactly my line of thoughts, which is why I come here and ask.
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<phoe>
I'll wait a while more, maybe someone knows such a library.
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<Shinmera>
phoe: you can setf the cdr of the nthcdr.
<phoe>
Shinmera: unless I want to insert at position 0, at which point I must modify the place.
<Shinmera>
Sure.
<Shinmera>
My point is, it's quite trivial.
<phoe>
I want an abstraction that will take care of this for me.
<phoe>
Yep, but nonetheless SETF CDR NTHCDR CONS CDR NTHCDR is ugly to me.
<phoe>
Since that's more or less how that insertion would look like.
<Shinmera>
If you want efficient inserting at any place you might want to consider something that isn't a list anyway. Like a skiplist.
<phoe>
Shinmera: it does not have to be efficient.
<phoe>
And to avoid the NIH syndrome, I'm looking for someone who already encountered that problem and wrote an already existing library function.
<Shinmera>
I have and did, but not as part of a utils package.
<phoe>
Sure, I can push yet another macro to PHOE-TOOLBOX, but that won't be too elegant.
<Shinmera>
Anyway, it's somewhere in my libraries :^)
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<jackdaniel>
in case of single utilities NIH doesn't apply, because pulling whole library as a dependency for a single (side-) utility is more absurd than adding 10 lines of code
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<phoe>
jackdaniel: unless it's already in some commonly used library that I am likely to have already pulled in.
<phoe>
I duplicated ALEXANDRIA:MAKE-KEYWORD once because I had no idea it is there.
<jackdaniel>
that's why I've added `single' word
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<beach>
shka_: Instead of (= a b) you can do (< (abs (- a b)) epsilon)
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<shka_>
i know that, it would be silly though if I was doing this while alexandria already has function for that
<shka_>
anyway, thanks for assistance!
<pjb>
the only problem is that you want epsilon to depend on the magnitudes of a and b.
<shka_>
pjb: true, but i just need to compare floats in unit test, so I will just that since i know precision beforehand
<shka_>
anyway, thanks all, have a good day!
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<fe[nl]ix>
jack_rabbit: that site really doesn't make it obvious the OS os NetBSD :D
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<jack_rabbit>
fe[nl]ix, what do you mean?
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<fe[nl]ix>
that main page should say that the OS they're offering is NetBSD
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<fe[nl]ix>
I had to go down several pages until I found a cursory mention of it
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<dim>
SBCL through buildapp gives me Fatal SIMPLE-ERROR: Compilation failed: PGLOADER.COPY also uses the following packages: (PGLOADER.PGSQL) ; CCL says nothing about it, and SBCL in SLIME loads pgloader just fine
<dim>
I'm all little lost here
<phoe>
dim: this errors happen when you redefine the PGLOADER.COPY package.
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<phoe>
In the new definition, you do not use the PGLOADER.SQL package, but it was used in the previous definition.
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<phoe>
Search for duplicate DEFPACKAGE PGLOADER.COPY in your code.
<phoe>
You probably do *not* want duplicate package definitions, anyway.
<dim>
yeah, thanks, having a look
<dim>
oh shit, got it.
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<phoe>
what was it?
<dim>
I have a source type that's named after the PostgreSQL COPY format, and also a CL implementation of the COPY protocol with error handling
<dim>
both in a separate package, in theory / in my mind
<dim>
but both packages are named pgloader.copy
<dim>
oops?
<phoe>
yes, oops.
<phoe>
that's a package name conflict.
<phoe>
(:
<dim>
naming, off by ones, etc
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<dim>
at least sbcl saw it
<phoe>
dim: you would also see it
<phoe>
if you loaded the packages in a proper order or something.
<papachan>
in lisp, what this means? (modulus (! (1- (length seq)))
<phoe>
papachan: I have no idea what ! is.
<papachan>
i have never seen this ! before
<phoe>
papachan: where have you found it?
<Shinmera>
probably factorial
<Shinmera>
no idea what modulus is supposed to do though
<phoe>
! is not standard Common Lisp, definitely.
<phoe>
neither is MODULUS.
<papachan>
ah i found where is coming from
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<papachan>
Shinmera: yeah it compute a factorial
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<borodust>
hmm, i generally should be able to load systems via asdf while being in other packages rather than :cl-user, right?
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<beach>
Sure.
<borodust>
on sbcl 1.4.0 i'm getting rather weird behavior: if i'm in package that doesn't import anything (not even :cl), asdf fails to load some files that contains macros and at the top of the file i use 'in-package
<borodust>
when i change 'in-package to 'cl:in-package (fully qualified symbol name) it works correctly
<beach>
Of course.
<beach>
If you don't :USE the COMMON-LISP package, it won't find the symbol IN-PACKAGE.
<borodust>
so, generally, speaking, i always should use cl:in-package rather than in-package, correct?
<beach>
I always do that myself.
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<beach>
So, yes, I recommend it.
<borodust>
i thought asdf handles that case so we don't need to use fully qualified names :/
<beach>
ASDF just calls COMPILE.
<beach>
er, COMPILE-FILE.
<pjb>
papachan: in lisp you can interpret a form, only knowing whether the symbols are macros or functions!
<Shinmera>
beach: If only that were all it did.
<beach>
Heh.
<pjb>
papachan: if all your first symbols are fbound to functions, then (modulus (! (1- (length seq)))) means call the function LENGTH in the value of the variable SEQ, then call the function 1- on the result, then call the function ! on the result, then call the function modulus on the result.
<pjb>
papachan: but if one of those symbols is bound to a macro, then we can only interpret the subexpressions depending on the macros!
<borodust>
shit... i only have this word for that situation D:
<papachan>
pjb: thank you for your explanation. very welcome !
<borodust>
but alright, i guess i'll just prefix all first 'in-package in sources :/
<pjb>
papachan: now, what function is called depend, and can be mostly determined only at run-time.
<pjb>
papachan: if length is CL:LENGTH, then it's the length function defined in the hyperspec.
<pjb>
papachan: same for 1-.
<papachan>
exactly
<pjb>
papachan: otherwise, if a function with the same name is defined in the same compilation unit (basically the same file), then it can be this exact same function. (perhaps even inlined).
<pjb>
papachan: otherwise, it can be any function fbound at run-time.
<pjb>
for functions in the same compilation unit, it is assuming it is not declaimed notinline. If declaimed notinline, then it's determined at run-time.
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<rme>
o/
<beach>
Hello rme. Are you in Bordeaux now?
<rme>
Yes, I am.
<phoe>
Uh oh. Common Lisp meeting in Bordeaux in 3... 2... 1...
<rme>
it could happen!
<beach>
I'll be available starting Tuesday.
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<dim>
hehe, I was supposed to spend some days in the Bordeaux area this week… it's a 3h ride train away…
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<rme>
come on down!
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<dim>
well, how long are you staying there?
<beach>
rme: Are you here by yourself?
<rme>
I'm leaving on March the 6th.
<rme>
beach: yes, just by myself.
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<beach>
rme: My favorite coauthor is very likely coming to my house for lunch on Wednesday. Would you care to join us?
<rme>
Thank you; I would love to.
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<beach>
Great!
<beach>
How do you get around?
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<rme>
I have a tram/bus pass.
<beach>
OK.
<beach>
I'll give you directions by email maybe?
<beach>
Where are you staying?
<beach>
Hmm, maybe you told me.
<beach>
Near the train station?
<rme>
I think I still have your address from last time. I'm by the train station.
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<beach>
OK. We'll figure it out. There is still time.
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<beach>
We typically eat soon after 12, but you can come early if you would like to hang out.
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<rme>
Great. I'll see you there at noon or a bit before. Thanks again.
<beach>
Sure. See you.
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<papachan_>
I just wish i would be at Bordeaux today to attend CL Meeting :p
<papachan_>
i hope there will be a lot of cool people there
<rme>
I'm not that cool, so that's one down.
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<beach>
Same here.
<beach>
My favorite coauthor is not that cool either.
<beach>
papachan_: I think you'll have to wait until ELS.
<papachan_>
beach: but ELS its at spain?
<beach>
It is in Marbella in Spain, yes. But there will be lots more and lots cooler people there.
<papachan_>
so you will be there? in may?
<beach>
If so, I would have missed ELS. :)
<beach>
ELS is mid April.
<beach>
But yeah, I have tickets and hotel reservations.
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<papachan_>
:) great
<papachan_>
have to go see you later ...
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<flip214>
phoe: again, this SETF depends on the value *package* when it is called, not _where_ it is called from.
<flip214>
during runtime *package* won't tell you which function/package/system/library etc. the caller comes from.
<flip214>
you could use TRIVIAL-BACKTRACE and look at the package of the function symbol in the parent frame, though.
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<phoe>
flip214: again, I wasn't serious at all. (:
<flip214>
yeah, I understood that.
<jmercouris>
I read that "set" might be deprecated
<jmercouris>
in that case, is there community favor to replace setf with the set keyword
<jmercouris>
or would that just cause confusion?
<Shinmera>
what?
<jmercouris>
maybe the post I read was wrong
<flip214>
hmmm, T-B even provides local variables.... cool
<beach>
jmercouris: You can't change the standard.
<Shinmera>
It's incredibly unlikely that it ever will.
<flip214>
set symbol value => value
<rme>
set does a special thing.
<phoe>
As long as a) someone writes a new standard, b) it gains enough popularity and adoption.
<flip214>
set changes the contents of the value cell of symbol to the given value.
<jmercouris>
so is common lisp tied to a standard?
<phoe>
And a) is trivial compared to b).
<jmercouris>
that is
<jmercouris>
if we were to release a new standard, we could not call it common lisp?
<phoe>
jmercouris: Common Lisp *is* a standard.
<flip214>
jmercouris: you could ask CL21 to use CL21:SET.
<rme>
some suggest always using setf and never setq. maybe that is what you are thinking of.
<phoe>
A standard called ANSI Common Lisp.
<jmercouris>
ANSI C has changed with time, right?
<phoe>
jmercouris: yep, there were several revisions of the standard.
<jmercouris>
So why might ANSI common lisp not change with time?
<Shinmera>
Because of the money
<phoe>
No one cares enough to do it.
<phoe>
No one has the money to spend on it.
<phoe>
No one has the time to organize it.
<jmercouris>
ok so it is purely a money problem
<Shinmera>
And even if so, no one cares to implement it
<phoe>
^
<beach>
jmercouris: Money and time.
<phoe>
And people and will.
<jmercouris>
Right
<jmercouris>
ok
<phoe>
The existing standard is simply good enough for a lot of Lispers.
<Shinmera>
CL happened because several big players decided they /wanted/ to collaborate and implement a common lisp
<jmercouris>
Are Common Lisp companies today relatively more poor, or more wealthy than in the past?
<phoe>
The language defined by it is extensible enough to not need new standards. Usually new standards happen when some new syntax is needed.
<jmercouris>
I'm leaning towards more poor since it seems there would not be momentum or money to redefine the standard
<phoe>
In Lisp, syntax changes are a part of the language.
<phoe>
jmercouris: Or they just don't want to, since CL is good enough for them.
<jmercouris>
phoe: Yeah, definitely, I remember the first time I asked about this beach explained it so
<phoe>
"good enough" being the key here.
<phoe>
Previously, you had several major Lisps, and they were incompatible with each other.
<phoe>
So there was need for a Lisp that was Common.
<jmercouris>
and now we have lots of lisp packages that are incompatible with different implementations :D
<jmercouris>
is this becuase of edge cases, or incomplete implementations, or because of implementation specific features?
<phoe>
that's the problem of packages and not the standard
<phoe>
implementation-defined features, most often.
<phoe>
not all implementations have atomic compare-and-swaps for example.
<phoe>
which are required for lockless concurrency.
<jmercouris>
so basically, the standard should probably be expanded, but it is too expensive to do so?
<phoe>
s/concurrency/parallelism/
<phoe>
jmercouris: more or less, with a wide meaning of "expensive".
<Shinmera>
Why do we gotta have this damn conversation every fucking month
<phoe>
Shinmera: people come and go, and all people who encounter Lisp have two questions, eventually
<phoe>
1) why the syntax is so fucking weird
<phoe>
2) why the standard was not updated since 1994
<Shinmera>
I for one never asked this question
<Shinmera>
Neither of them actually
<jmercouris>
perhaps you read about it
<phoe>
well, s/everyone/everyone enough/
<jmercouris>
before you had a chance to ask it
<Shinmera>
More people could, too.
<Shinmera>
It's been done to death and beyond.
<jmercouris>
if you are annoyed by the repetitiveness of questions, why not make an extension to your chatbot that persists this conversation and reproduces it when it gets brought up again
<Shinmera>
Because it wouldn't help.
<jmercouris>
IRC is a place for discussion, not documentation
<jmercouris>
I think you are mistaken
<jmercouris>
it is a "CHAT RELAY" not "ARCHIVE RELAY"
<Shinmera>
Look man I've done this dance. People aren't happy with the answers we give them. It always devolves into an endless, tedious argument about nothing that wastes everyone's time.
<Shinmera>
An automated answer would not help.
<jmercouris>
Now you are actually changing your argument though
<jmercouris>
I did accept the answer, and I understood it
<phoe>
someone write a blog post related to 2) that describes everything that could be described
<easye>
loke: sf.net was "upgrading servers" in the past couple days from what I ambiently inferred.
<loke>
easye: Yeah. I couldn't reach the main web page yesterday
<loke>
It cam eback up now, so what's why I'm trying to sync
<easye>
I can't resolve sf.net from common-lisp.net (Amsterdam, NL)
<loke>
I see
<loke>
maxima.sf.net resolves though
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<easye>
err, I can resolve, not your respository. https connection fails.
<loke>
Ah yes
<loke>
So same problem as me
<easye>
So, confirmed.
<easye>
Sorry.
<loke>
sf is really not very good
<easye>
Not this decade, anyways.
<loke>
yeah
<loke>
I still have one project there.
<loke>
I should really move it out
<loke>
I haven't committed anything to it since the lates 90's though :-)
<easye>
I usually stash things on two repos (github.com and bitbucket.org these days)
* easye
still updates the MacPorts math/maxima/Portfile every time he updates lang/sbcl
<easye>
So, something is still working.
<loke>
I consider my workstations (usually 3 differnt machines) to be my backups, so I only use a single remote repository (usually github, but also a personal server as well as Keybase)
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<borodust>
lets say i have a macro that generates some defstruct
<borodust>
is there a way to force all those symbols generated to be in a certain package? is switching in and out of a package with in-package the only solution?
<Bike>
defstruct makes symbols based on the value of *package* when the defstruct is expanded
<borodust>
those symbols generated by :include are most pesky ones
<Bike>
so basically, yes
<Bike>
:include generates symbols?
<borodust>
yup, when you include it takes all parent slots and generates accessors for them :|
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<Bike>
oh, that. right.
<borodust>
those the only symbols i don't have control over, basically
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<Shinmera>
You can copy the fdefinition over to your preferred symbol and fmakunbound the old ones.
<borodust>
yeah, although now i need to know all parents and their slots
<borodust>
doable, but sounds a bit mundane :/
<Bike>
mundane is okay
<Bike>
welcome to defstruct, though. it's not a great interface
<pjb>
It shows you that you perfectly control where defstruct makes symbols, based on the value of *package*, including the :include generated symbols, as Bike said.
<pjb>
So you have control over them.
<borodust>
that's what i asked :) if in-package is the only solution or not
<borodust>
but generating in-package form in the macro is quite bad
<pjb>
And won't work.
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<borodust>
all the more :)
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<pjb>
borodust: if you fine control on the symbols, use defclass.
<pjb>
+want
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<borodust>
pjb: i'm working on a legacy software
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<borodust>
turning everything into class is possible, but i prefere less radical ways if possible :)
<borodust>
but i guess i'll probably just go with classes there
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<borodust>
at the moment it pollutes (internally) whatever package it was loaded from
<borodust>
while not crucial it bothers me a bit
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<borodust>
oh, heh, adding in-package form helped (not gonna use this approach anyway, just an experiment)
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<borodust>
actually, i would, but that would be inserted and inverted in the different place, sorry ;p
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<Nouv>
Is there a specific guide I should use to learn sbcl lisp or is it just common lisp?
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<loke>
Nouv: All CL's are pretty much the same in terms of what they support. They all implement the same satndard.
<Nouv>
okay, thank you :)
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<fourier>
Nouv: there are some differences between implementation - compilation time, included features/additional APIs which are not in standard etc; sbcl though looks the most popular implementation nowadays
<Nouv>
Is there anywhere I can see all of the functions I can use?
<whoman>
how do you learn stuff.. ?
<whoman>
like how did you learn irc or computers
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<Nouv>
I don't know what to search for though, like common lisp api doesn't show anything relevant, sbcl documentation shows me mostly differences between sbcl and the standard
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<phoe>
Nouv: Practical Common Lisp is a good book of choice.
<phoe>
...for learning CL, that is.
<phoe>
If you open CLHS, there are dictionary pages that list all symbols relevant to that dictionary's topic.
<rumbler31>
Nouv: when you are in your repl, (apropos "thing") will show you all symbols, functions, and things with that name
<rumbler31>
so if you want to explore a library or your own code, you can discover what has been loaded into the image
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<koisoke>
olette->oletteko ehk
<koisoke>
sorry wrong window
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<jmercouris>
I got Lisp and Objective C to talk over over sockets! Yay!
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<Xach>
Shinmera: your export of FORMATTER causes clashes in cepl, because it has (:use :cl :documentation-utils) and there's a clash with formatter. Do you feel like this is something to fix on the cepl side?
<whoman>
jme
<whoman>
where did he go!
<Shinmera>
Xach: Arguably it was never meant for :use-ing, but I can see either way.
<Shinmera>
I'll talk to Baggers when he shows up next.
<stylewarning>
i've been meaning to get to that but this ELS paper is sucking up all my time
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<Xach>
ok
<whoman>
who is com-informatigo ?
<Shinmera>
pjb
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<whoman>
ah thought so but wasnt sure , thanks =)
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<Xach>
Hmm
<Xach>
i wonder if it would be advisable to have poison pill symbols exported from packages not meant to be inherited
<phoe>
poison pill symbols?
<phoe>
such as foo:+dont-use-this-package+ ?
<Xach>
no, like foo:car foo:cdr or similar. something likely to clash by default.
<Bike>
if you shadow it you can't write in that package without a redefinition tho. better pick something more useless... /// say
<Xach>
the three slashes of no inheritance
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<stacksmith>
Greetings. Is there a clever idiom for not expanding a symbol if its value is null inside a quasiquote, but skipping it altogether? Or do I need to abandon quasiquote and build a list by hand?
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<phoe>
Yemeni-Dark: wtf?
<phoe>
this is not related to Lisp in the slightest.
<aeth>
Every channel should have a YouTube title bot.
<aeth>
It's otherwise impossible to tell the content of a YouTube link before clicking, which is a huge problem.
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<whoman>
phoe your red flag should go up when someone unfamiliar joins and instantly posts a youtube link
<phoe>
whoman: it did.
<Yemeni-Dark>
sorry
<pjb>
whoman: /whois pjb
<whoman>
unbeknownst to others, hence my response.
<pjb>
Right, freenode doesn't show the email :-(
<pjb>
mailto:pjb@informatimago.com
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<whoman>
pjb: thanks =) its not really i thing i would do, to /whois everyone
<pjb>
Internet pre-web was the golden period of the Internet.
<whoman>
pjb: just wanted to ask, whats your most 'proud' code on your repo? i want to browse and be inspired, vicariously
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<aeth>
pjb: Internet pre-Facebook was the golden period of the Internet
<whoman>
aeth: oh so was the time of plato, aristotle, ... wearing togas and chiseling some pillars
<pjb>
whoman: well, there are several parts. It would depend on what you're looking for. You may have a look at the cl-stepper.
<phoe>
aeth: Internet pre-neural network interface was the golden period of the Internet
* phoe
shushes
<whoman>
pjb: just some nice heavy duty solid lisp code
<pjb>
Yeah, when you start receiving advertisements in your dreams, it really deteriorates from then.
<pjb>
All my lisp code is heavy dury :-)
<pjb>
duty
<whoman>
pjb: ok, cool =)
<whoman>
heh. duty
<pjb>
have also a look at com.informatimago.clext.pipe
<whoman>
heh i was at queueueue, close ~
<pfdietz>
They differ in stuff that isn't in the standard, though.
<pfdietz>
Wait, I needed to scroll this window.
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<whoman>
hm whats all this code for anyway, pjb is it just libs of all your stuff for things ?
<pjb>
Yes, it's all library.
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<pjb>
You have small programs in com.informatimago.small-cl-pgms.*
<whoman>
i was asking umm is this your util libs. i know its all library
<pjb>
Yes, it is.
<whoman>
because of namespace com.informatimago.*
<whoman>
okay =)
<whoman>
theres a lot of stuff in here. c++ parser , pipes, ...
<whoman>
i dont know what to think right now. got to meditate
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<aeth>
Heavy duty? Meanwhile, I don't even have a presentable file in my code. I'll have nice, clean code for the first 1/3 or 1/2 and then messy ugly hacks written years ago in the bottom half.
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<whoman>
first ? bottom half.. ?
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<comborico1611>
Is a property list considered a hash table? If not, what feature is it missing to make it so?
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<Bike>
hashing
<comborico1611>
I suppose I never got that far into hashes, then. I was only aware of the keyword-value relationship, not anything other than that. Thank you.
<aeth>
whoman: ((foo = 1/3) or (foo = 1/2)) and ((1 - foo) = 1/2) => (foo = 1/2); no logical contradiction.
<phoe>
comborico1611: no, it is not.
<phoe>
a plist is a list, a hash-table is a hash-table.
<phoe>
they are of different types.
<phoe>
and have different underlying mechanics.
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<_death>
both are associative data structures
<aeth>
There are three things that roughly do the same thing. plist, alist, and hash-table. plists and alists are very similar (just different ways of handling the same concept in a list form), but hash-tables are a proper data structure of their own, not made up of conses like the list-based ones.
<aeth>
And, yeah, the concept is "associative data structure"
<comborico1611>
Very good. Thank you.
<Shinmera>
aeth: Colleen can do title lookup for URLs automatically, but I don't know if this channel would like that.
<_death>
doubt it's a good idea.. many of the links are clhs links where the title is also provided
<_death>
or pastes, and who cares about titles there
<aeth>
alists are ((key-1 . value-1) (key-2 . value-2) ...) and plists are (:key-1 value-1 :key-2 value-2 ...) and hash tables use some unknown, implementation-specific data format that is probably more efficient for large number of items. How large that number of items is varies. It could be 5 or so. It could be dozens. It depends on the implementation.
<whoman>
aeth: ah ok =)
<aeth>
It might also depend on the access pattern. Maybe alists or plists will always be more efficient than hash-tables' maphash if you're just iterating over them. You'd have to benchmark.
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<aeth>
Shinmera: I agree with _death. Although it could still be useful just for places with ambiguous URLs like YouTube. There are lots of on-topic Lisp videos on YouTube that I wouldn't click on because I simply don't know what that video is.
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<dim>
mmm, seems that cl-csv doesn't accept NIL as the *quote* char anymore
<dim>
it was pretty useful to implement fields not enclosed in pgloader
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<borei>
hi all
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<phoe>
hei borei
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<borei>
if i want to force compiler to use integer of fixed size will it be correct form - (integer 0 16) - im expecting that var will be unsigend integer with max 2^^16 -1 ?
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<Bike>
no, that means an integer between 0 and 16
<Bike>
you want (unsigned-byte 16)
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<dim>
cl-csv read table is pretty flexible, that's nice
<borei>
tks !
<dim>
it's possible to provide one's own read table, with some tweaking, and implement the *quote* nil behaviour from before
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<dim>
(or (find-symbol "MAKE-DEFAULT-CSV-READER" pkg) (find-symbol "MAKE-DEFAULT-CSV-DISPATCH-TABLE" pkg)) ; I don't much like having to do that
<dim>
but well I guess that's part of the game?
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<whoman>
hmm, doesnt seem right, dim
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<dim>
it gets worse, there's an &key parameter that changed too
<dim>
so I need to either call (cl-csv:read-csv stream :table ...) or (cl-csv:read-csv stream :csv-reader ...), so now I have that test too
<whoman>
=/ hm is that for different versions of the library ?
<dim>
yeah
<dim>
latest from QL and current git
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<whoman>
why support both? if current supercedes
<dim>
because I don't know when current git is going to make it to QL, and I'm already bitten by the problem in my dev environment (which I could fix, but) and I don't want pgloader users to have to deal with anything like that
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<whoman>
dim: ahh true, hmm
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<dim>
well it seems like cl-csv newer releases are breaking pgloader
<dim>
not at the API level, I could fix that, at the csv parsing facilities
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<dim>
maybe pgloader users are asking too much flexibility, but what used to work doesn't anymore... I think I'll sleep on that and see about reporting issues tomorrow
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<whoman>
pg? dim rest well, i hope it works out =)
<krwq>
is it possible to open file for :io, read/write some bytes and then truncate the rest of the file?
<Xach>
krwq: not in a standard way
<krwq>
Xach: any way to resize the stream? I assume setting the file-position doesn't change the stream size as well, right?
<krwq>
is there any library which could do that?
<pjb>
It's not even a POSIX operation! But a unix specific one.
<Xach>
krwq: I don't know, sorry.
<pjb>
The portable way to do it, is to copy the data.
<krwq>
Xach: all right, thanks
<krwq>
pjb: the thing is when you implement fuse operations it removes flags truncate flag and instead calls open, truncate
<krwq>
removes `truncate` flag*
<krwq>
so trying to implement the truncate part
<krwq>
I was gonna do everything on streams but not sure if I can use streams anymore
<pillton>
From chls 25.1.4.1: "An integer indicating the year A.D. However, if this integer is between 0 and 99, the ``obvious'' year is used; more precisely, that year is assumed that is equal to the integer modulo 100 and within fifty years of the current year (inclusive backwards and exclusive forwards). Thus, in the year 1978, year 28 is 1928 but year 27 is 2027. (Functions that return time in this format always return a full year number.) "
<pillton>
Weird.
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<krwq>
actually i can just recreate the node but kinda annoying on both fuse and CL that they make me do such weird workarounds
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