binghe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp, http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.0, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5
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<stylewarning> I'm beginning to think I'd love X.Y to be an alias for (X-Y X)
<whoman> why not? can it be done ? oh wait i thought this was #prolog
<stylewarning> (:
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<borei> trying to create method with type specializer (simple-array single-float *) - compiler is not happy
<stylewarning> borei: methods take class names, not types
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<stylewarning> borei: you can do non-portable and brittle things like specializing on your implementation's classes for those objects, like in SBCL, SB-KERNEL::SIMPLE-ARRAY-SINGLE-FLOAT
<fouric> ...would anyone happen to know if there exists a concise description of *how* Mezzano works, and if so, where it is?
<borei> ok, using just `simple-array` - should be ok then?
<fouric> I'm willing to read the code if necessary, but there's a *lot* of it, and if a shortcut exists, I would love to take it
<Bike> no, simple-array is not necessarily a class either.
<borei> hmm
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<borei> OOP in Common List, page 83
<borei> mapping of CLOS types to common lisp types
<borei> now im confused
<Bike> well basically a class is a pretty strict delineation of objects.
<Bike> but implementations have a lot of freedom in deciding what a simple array is.
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<aeth> You want specialization-store if you want dispatch on array types. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/
<froggey> fouric: not that I know of
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<froggey> my very concise description: it compiles everything to native code. the runtime is written in a way that doesn't require any extra support
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<Zhivago> Although, really, you never want to dispatch on type.
<Zhivago> If you do, it means that you're probably conflating semantics in some terrible fashion.
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<nydel> thanks fe[nl]ix (link to script) i try this now.
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<aeth> Zhivago: Depends. If you're doing linear algebra stuff you have (simple-array single-float (3))s that you might want to treat differently than other things.
<aeth> But it basically just makes sense for specialized arrays of numbers.
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<fouric> lol ty froggey
<fouric> (that actually does help a bit)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<whoman> good morning
<beach> Hello whoman.
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<SaganMan> Morning beach
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<phoe> On SBCL, how can I identify the thread that takes up 100% of my CPU if I have several worker threads?
<st_iron> top -H
<st_iron> or ps with -T
<phoe> Yes, sure, but that will not give me the thread name assigned to it by BORDEAUX-THREADS, will it?
<st_iron> i am not sure
<phoe> Or by SBCL.
<st_iron> probably htop has a feature that gives the thread names
<phoe> I can see the thread in top or htop, no problem, but I want to identify *which* one it was, and what it was doing.
<st_iron> oh, sorry then
<st_iron> i misunderstood the question
<shka_> phoe: i don't think there is a way to do it…
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<fourier> phoe: add logging and thread id to the worker thread
<fourier> in c/c++/java etc ides you can just hit pause in debugger and investigate what your threads are doing. not sure how can you do it in CL other than logging
<beach> It's an interesting point though. Any sophisticated Common Lisp debugger must be able to help in such situations.
<phoe> fourier: I already have this.
<phoe> I have a hash-table from thread objects to descriptions of the tasks that they are doing now.
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<phoe> But I have no way to figure out which task is stuck in a loop.
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<shka_> phoe: KILL AM ALL!!!
<phoe> shka_: this is silly.
<shka_> it is
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<shka_> but it should work to determine which one hang
<shka_> if you do it one by one, that's it
<phoe> Yes, of course, at the cost of  destroying what they were doing.
<fourier> beach: the cl debuggers haven't evolved with the whole envirenmont these years.
<phoe> I do not want to do this on production servers.
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<beach> fourier: I know. It is even fair to say that no free Common Lisp system even has a debugger worthy of that name.
<jackdaniel> fwiw you may debug ecl with gdb which is a canonical debugger ,)
<beach> Good point. Not ideal of course.
<fourier> jackdaniel: yep gdb is a thing :))
<jackdaniel> abcl could be probably debugged with generic JVM tools too
<jackdaniel> but I don't know that as a fact
<shka_> phoe: well, perhaps you should try attach with GDB then
<shka_> sbcl uses native threads, so they should show up
<phoe> I will most likely get some thread IDs internal to the operating system.
<phoe> So I get some OS IDs.
<phoe> I need to map these to thread objects.
<shka_> ok, sbcl should have way to do so
<fourier> I find the general debugging in CL troublesome process. due to the nature of different rules like (if condition statement1 statement2) its not easy to add logging real quick - since I would have to add progn as well. also general unavailability of the nice stepper is a problem - the same with (break) - I have to modify my code and insteart progn there as well
<fourier> the only nice debugging tool which fit the bill I found is Stepper in LW - and it was one of the reasons I've purchased it since it made my life so much easier
<shka_> phoe: can't find anything in manual, though
<smokeink> fourier: how is the stepper in LW different from the one in slime ?
<fourier> dont know since I dont use slime anymore for active development..
<fourier> if you can record a simple debugging session with it and place on youtube/animated gif/etc I can take a look and tell the difference/similarities
<smokeink> well I tried both and they're quite the same, in my experience
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<smokeink> ok
<jackdaniel> can anyone successfully call (ql:quickload 'clml) ;? I have a problem with loading package on sbcl
<smokeink> System "clml.data.r-datasets-package" not found
<shka_> jackdaniel: what is your heap size?
<jackdaniel> I have the same as you smokeink, thanks
<shka_> it loads for me
<jackdaniel> I don't see why heap size would influence package finding(?)
<jackdaniel> shka_: do you have newest ql dist?
<jackdaniel> s/package/system/
<shka_> yup
<jackdaniel> hm
<shka_> but maybe it was cached
<phoe> I could theoretically make a function that repeatedly calls (interrupt-thread thread #'break) on all thread objects, also printing them out for me. And I can watch when the CPU goes down.
<phoe> Like, calls #'BREAK consecutively on the next thread when I continue in the current one.
<smokeink> fourier: here are some gifs http://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ "When Tom tries to calculate the tenth Fibonacci with this code, a debugger window pops up because an error was signaled." ...
<jackdaniel> OK, I get it – clml depends on some system which is internal to it, but this system is not declared in ql dist
<jackdaniel> so the problem arises if you quickload clml without having it downloaded first
<jackdaniel> it may be solved by quickloading clml.utils first (then tgz is downloaded and missing system is found)
<shka_> interesting
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<shka_> it loads for me
<shka_> even after nuking cache
<fourier> smokeink: I see. this is exactly what I dont like as I said - I want to have a "break" at any statement, and insterting manually (break) doesn't cut it - since it would force me to add progn for single-expression statements
<jackdaniel> as I said, you probably had it already downloaded in ql
<jackdaniel> I'm not talking about cache but sources in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp directory
<shka_> maybe
<fourier> while in LW I can just set breakpoint at any statement and then it will be hit the stepper will be popped out
<shka_> it was a while since the last time used clml
<smokeink> fourier: oh you're right, LW can set breakpoints on any sexp one wants
<smokeink> I was thinking of coding a reader macro called bp! or something, that can be inserted anywhere and that does the progn wrapping and everything automatically
<fourier> LW also has a process browser to see which threads are running, so in general its IDE really helps with debugging
<phoe> fourier: #! is free for grabbing and looks like a good choice
<phoe> ...for a breakpoint reader macro, that is
<smokeink> cool
<phoe> wait, not fourier
<phoe> smokeink:
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<smokeink> and one can set a breakpoint keybinding in emacs and have this 'set breakpoint' functionality similar to the one in lispworks. Next, we need the view threads functionality . Doesn't slime have something for threads? slime is not useful for this particular threads issue you're experiencing now phoe?
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<phoe> smokeink: I don't know
<phoe> I can use (bt:all-threads) to get a list of all thread objects currently running.
<phoe> But I have no interactive means of measuring which one is taking up CPU.
<phoe> HTOP shows thread IDs, but I have no mapping from thread IDs to thread objects.
<phoe> Hm. One second though.
<phoe> What is the way of getting current PID on SBCL?
<phoe> I wonder if this will differ when ran from different threads.
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<fourier> should be something like native thread id
<phoe> On Linux, it seems that each thread gets its own PID.
<phoe> This is my hope.
<phoe> If I get mapping from PIDs to thread objects, I'm home.
<smokeink> sb-thread:*current-thread* <- what are os-thread and primitive-thread slots in this structure ?
<fourier> as soon as you able to get native pid from thread object, all you would need to do is to iterate over all thread objects to find the proper thread object
<phoe> fourier: correct, (find pid (bt:all-threads) :key #'thread-pid)
<phoe> All is missing is this #'THREAD-PID function.
<phoe> smokeink: I have no idea. This is already SBCL internals.
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<smokeink> perhaps one of them is the thread's id
<fourier> ^
<phoe> nope.
<phoe> run (describe sb-thread:*current-thread*)
<phoe> these two values are some huge integers.
<phoe> neither of them is the PID.
<phoe> OS-THREAD = 140737353870208
<phoe> PRIMITIVE-THREAD = 140737339621376
<phoe> where my SBCL's PID is 31962.
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<fourier> looks more like handles than integers
<smokeink> I'm not sure PID is the same thing as thread-id
<smokeink> http://ask.xmodulo.com/view-threads-process-linux.html check out this "Show custom thread names" htop screenshot
<smokeink> maybe the thread names set by sbcl are viewable in htop
<fourier> sbcl have thread-name
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<fourier> no i dont think so, pthreads doesnt seem to have thread names, I guess these names are sbcl-only
<fourier> or no it has
<phoe> I can't see it on my machine.
<phoe> All are named "sbcl".
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<smokeink> yeah same here... hmm what's this https://github.com/sile/taomp-sbcl/blob/master/thread-id.lisp
<smokeink> I think it's not the OS thread id that it gets /\
<phoe> this is silly.
<phoe> it calculates the position of the thread object on the list of all threads.
<phoe> and the list of all threads can change at any time, even before the list-all-threads function returns.
<smokeink> yes..
<phoe> and process can get killed.
<phoe> so the ID you get from this can change over time.
<phoe> s/process/threads/
<smokeink> (defun get-thread-handle
<phoe> (sb-unix:unix-getpid) does not work as I'd like it to.
<phoe> It returns the main process ID, not the thread's.
<smokeink> try (sb-posix::getppid)
<smokeink> it returns a different value, but no idea what it actually represents
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<phoe> smokeink: not on my machine.
<smokeink> oh it's the parent id, in my case the emacs
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<smokeink> phoe: I think a solution is to syscall from within sbcl https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19350212/which-linux-syscall-is-used-to-get-a-threads-id using (sb-unix::syscal
<phoe> I was looking at GETTID before, yes.
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<smokeink> but I haven't figured out yet how to do that... the syscall examples here are all for Win32api https://searchcode.com/file/5603613/src/code/unix.lisp
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<phoe> But what if the TID is one of the crazy numbers we've seen in the thread structure?
<phoe> I'll pause this question for now. I'll just break all threads until I see a decrease in CPU usage.
<smokeink> I think the TID should be one of the numbers in the TID column this output: ps -To pid,tid -p `pidof sbcl`
<smokeink> if not, then it should still be possible to obtain a mapping from the 'crazy number' to the number used by the OS
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<smokeink> (sb-alien:alien-funcall (sb-alien:extern-alien "getpid" (function sb-alien:unsigned)) ) ; getting close
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<smokeink> phoe: try this: (sb-alien:alien-funcall (sb-alien:extern-alien "syscall" (function sb-alien:unsigned int )) 224)
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<phoe> smokeink: returns 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
<smokeink> okay, then you must be using a different system. On my system it works perfectly. Find the gettid syscall code for your system and replace that 224 with it
<phoe> I have a usual debian sid
<smokeink> try 186
<phoe> smokeink: that does the job, yes.
<phoe> smokeink: thanks!
<smokeink> my pleasure
<phoe> Except now I have a question.
<phoe> I have a way to get a thread's ID, from *inside* that thread.
<phoe> Therefore I will have to interrupt that thread to execute the syscall.
<phoe> Is it safe?
<smokeink> I have no idea.. :) but I think under the hood syscalls are always happening from within the thread
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<smokeink> I might be wrong, though
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<smokeink> why do you have to interrupt the thread ?
<phoe> How am I going to execute the syscall then?
<phoe> I have a thread that takes up 100% of the CPU.
<phoe> I need its PID.
<phoe> I can't execute the syscall from outside the thread because it will give me the PID of the thread that executed the syscall.
<phoe> That syscall can't be executed "on another thread's behalf".
<phoe> Unless we patch SBCL, so it executes that syscall on thread creation and puts its return value inside a new slot in the THREAD structure.
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<phoe> Which in turn generates issues for multiplatform support, because either it'll be Linux only and therefore ugly, or we do the same for all other platforms that it supports.
<smokeink> can you patch the running thread ? and tell it to push its id and its thread-object into some list ?
<phoe> Patch the running thread? How?
<phoe> It's called interrupting it.
<smokeink> I don't know whether it's possible, just thinking..
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<phoe> Sure thing that it can push it somewhere and then resume what it was doing.
<phoe> Except I don't know if it's safe.
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<smokeink> just a random thought: is that thread making the machine run slow? Is it possible to change the priority of a thread and observe whether the machine got faster or not? if so, maybe playing with priorities is a way to find which of the threads is the culprit
<phoe> If I go this way, I can (interrupt-thread thread #'break) and see if the CPU usage goes down from 100% to 0%.
<phoe> That is safe enough to do.
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<smokeink> phoe: maybe
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<phoe> smokeink: that's what the SBCL manual tells me, anyway.
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<phoe> smokeink: yep.
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<shka_> looking for small package with sha1
<shka_> ironclad has it, but it is rather large
<smokeink> check if it's possible to steal sha1 from it
<shka_> or use other hash function
<shka_> for instance city-hash
<phoe> shka_: why do you want to avoid ironclad?
<shka_> phoe: because it is large, and i just want hash function
<smokeink> phoe: that wine/ntdll/server.c get_unix_tid() code is nice. I updated the stackoverflow answer with a get-thread-id that works on windows
<Xach> phoe: ironclad's functions are deeply interlinked into a framework. hard to isolate just what you need.
<Xach> phoe: that's why i didn't use it.
<Xach> shka_: http://www.obrezan.com/lisp/sha1/sha1.lisp and others are available
<shka_> neat!
<shka_> Xach: thanks!
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<phoe> Xach: yes, I see.
<phoe> smokeink: woah, really!? it will also work on windows? let me see
<phoe> hmmm
<phoe> interesting
<smokeink> phoe: turns out that for Windows a 1 liner is also possible: (sb-alien:alien-funcall (sb-alien:extern-alien "GetCurrentThreadId" (function sb-alien:unsigned)))
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<phoe> smokeink: please put it in the SO answer as well!
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<oruppert> Is it possible to automatically show the docstring for functions in slime?
<Xach> oruppert: I don't think there's a bulit-in feature for that.
<oruppert> Xach: thanks
<phoe> oruppert: the best thing I know is (documentation 'foo 'function).
<phoe> but that's Lisp and not slime.
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<scymtym_> C-c C-d d describes the object at point. for symbols, the description usually includes the docstring. this is not automatic, of course. C-c C-d ? lists a bunch of useful functions
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<oruppert> It would be nice to see not only the argument list in the emacs message area, but also the first line of the docstring.
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<fourier> it would be long then
<phoe> (subseq docstring 0 80) perhaps if the first line is longer than 80 chars
<oruppert> fourier: arglist one line and first line of docstring one line
<Shinmera> Things like auto-complete and company can give you the docstring in a popup
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<shka_> Shinmera: hey, have you seen my message on github?
<Shinmera> Yes
<shka_> ok, cool
<Shinmera> I get email notifications
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<shka_> just wanted to make sure :-)
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<oruppert> It seams i can implement this by myself. Thanks for the hints.
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<smokeink> <smokeink> Let's say I have this fib function that breaks when the parameter n equals 2 , https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27889989/stepping-in-sbcl-from-within-the-debugger?rq=1 How to proceed to STEPPING , right after the (break) , without using slime's Return From Frame" (R) and manually typing (fib 2) ? <beach> You probably can't, depending on the Common Lisp implementation you are using.
<smokeink> beach: with sbcl and slime, one can just press s after the break took place :) and it will go into stepping mode
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<beach> smokeink: Excellent!
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<Baggers> Is there a reliable way to check if a potential type specifier is valid? I have no use for this just curious. Closest I got was this horrible thing (handler-case (nth-value 1 (subtypep x nil)) (error ())) where x is the specifier
<Bike> No.
<Colleen> Bike: Shinmera said 4 hours, 42 minutes ago: The CCS stuff is not just metadata. It should be visible in the document. The ccsxml should be in the header https://github.com/Shinmera/talks/blob/master/els2018-glsl-oop/paper.tex#L31-L59 and after the abstract should be \printccsdesc https://github.com/Shinmera/talks/blob/master/els2018-glsl-oop/paper.tex#L85
<Baggers> Bike: thanks
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<Xach> Baggers: did you update cepl re formatter issue? I wasn't sure on which end it got fixed...
<Baggers> Xach: yeah it should be fixed
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<Baggers> Xach: that and the alexandria related one
<burton`> If I have a (handler-case .... (error (e) (print e))) form, how do I get the actual error string from the condition 'e', rather than a non-readable representation of the error?
<Bike> write-to-string
<Bike> maybe with :pretty t or something
<loke> (format nil "~a" condition)
<Bike> there's no "error string" in general, just a procedure to make a string
<burton`> with write-to-string I still get "#<UNBOUND-VARIABLE 4020008923>"
<burton`> I'm thinking there's a more specific error message 'inside' the error object
<burton`> ah, found it
<burton`> thanks for your help
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<pjb> or princ-to-string
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<phoe> asarch: this is a valid finding
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<fe[nl]ix> nydel: did the script work ?
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<jmercouris> I saw that post on reddit about Lush, and it had me thinking, are there any usable shells written in lisp?
<random-nick> there's eshell, but that's emacs lisp
<jmercouris> right of course
<jmercouris> I meant something not tied to emacs though
<Shinmera> I recall hearing of multiple such projects, but they never really took off because Lisp is a bit verbose for scripting.
<Shinmera> Can't recall names, though.
<beach> I recall at least one written in Scheme.
<beach> scsh or something like that.
<jmercouris> Shinmera: Can you expand what you mean by it being verbose?
<Shinmera> Uh, it takes a lot of characters to do a thing.
<jmercouris> Huh? I'm still not following you
<jmercouris> Lisp doesn't seem very verbose
<random-nick> it's a lot more verbose than bash
<jmercouris> I guess it's all relative, I was never good at shell scripting, so I've not had this "succinct" experience
<beach> (with-unix-commands-linked-together-with-pipes "ls" "more")
<jmercouris> You could ship the shell with a set of macros that make operations like that easier
<Shinmera> Sure. But at some point you'd just be writing bash again (or your variant of it).
<beach> jmercouris: Oh, you want the syntax to be just like sh or bash, but you want it written in Common Lisp?
<jmercouris> What I think would be cool though would be that your "shell scripts" could be written in lisp
<jmercouris> but at the repl you could use the "succinct" syntax
<jmercouris> beach: yeah, something like that, so you can still use Lisp
<Shinmera> Well you can already. Many implementations support the shebang header.
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<Xach> jmercouris: rob warnock wrote about his "OPFR" syntax on comp.lang.lisp from time to time. it was interesting to me.
<jmercouris> #!/bin/sbcl and it'll work?
<phoe> jmercouris: SBCL works like this, I think
<jmercouris> or whatever the path to your implementation is
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<Shinmera> Yes
<jmercouris> how is this achieved?
<Shinmera> You can put #!/whatever/dude at the top of a file and the shell will call that executable with the file.
<jmercouris> Ah, so it is not up to the implementation to support that
<jmercouris> but the implementation must be able to be piped to?
<Shinmera> Well the implementation needs to know not to choke on the shebang
<jmercouris> ok
<phoe> Shinmera: a funny corner case
<jmercouris> ok so it will literally invoke /bin/sbcl path/to/file/invoked
<phoe> what if I implement a #! reader macro?
<Shinmera> I'm quite sure the shebang will be processed before your file reaches the reader.
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<jmercouris> Xach: interesting, thanks for sharing
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<dim> https://gist.github.com/posener/73ffd326d88483df6b1cb66e8ed1e0bd is about Writing Scripts with Go and contains some info about the #! Linux tricks that we might be able to re-use for CL
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<dim> that's not the document I thought this was
<dim> google-fu is failing me today it seems
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<dim> they play with binfmt_misc to have /usr/local/bin/gorun take care of #! scripts that are *.go
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<dim> I guess we could do something for *.lisp in the same vein
<Xach> rob warnock has a nice trampoline for lisp stuff for shells
<Xach> I've used it a bit
<dim> isn't roswell already doing that btw?
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<Xach> ah yes
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<dim> 14 years old recipe...
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<dim> why not just create a binary?
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<Xach> dim: It's not to illustrate an ideal situation, but a tool in the toolbox that may come in handy
<Xach> It's pretty lightweight and doesn't rely on your lisp supporting shebang or anything.
<Xach> I had a variation that took advantage of # starting a shell comment and #| starting a multi-line CL comment...something like (short paste a-coming)
<Xach> ":"
<Xach> #|
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<Xach> exec sbcl --load <compute path to this file>
<Xach> |#
<Xach> (lisp code here)
<Xach> lisp didn't see the shell part, and vice versa
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<shka_> i have lparallel question
<phoe> shka_: ask it
<shka_> is it possible to deadlock lparallel by calling pmap inside pmap?
<phoe> shka_: seemingly yes
<shka_> you don't know, don't you?
<phoe> I can imagine how it is possible to deadlock them
<phoe> PMAP is blocking
<phoe> so your workers will be blocked, waiting for PMAP to complete
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<phoe> but PMAP will never complete because all workers are blocked
<shka_> yes, that' why i am asking
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<shka_> but on the other hand, since pmap blocks thread, it can designate it's home thread for computation
<shka_> this way, it will never deadlock, unless you explicitly put it in future
<shka_> phoe: do you understand?
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<phoe> shka_: yep.
<shka_> sigh
<shka_> i guess i check the source code
<phoe> from what I understand, PMAP should never be put in code that the workers are executing.
<phoe> or calls to any other PFOO, for the matter.
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<shka_> phoe: you are not mistaken, but it is not in docs
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<phoe> shka_: you can theoretically put calls to parallel functions in there, as long as you redefine *KERNEL* to something else
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<phoe> which kind of misses the point
<shka_> that's kinda defeats the point
<phoe> it's like creating a thread that waits for itself to join
<shka_> well, in future we trust!
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<shka_> having said that, i can't do this for everything
<shka_> but should not matter
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<krwq> what's the most generic specialization for strings in defgeneric? I've tried using just `string` but it seems that when element is #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)) {10099D919F}> this doesn't worl
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<phoe> krwq: (stringp (make-array 10 :element-type 'character)) ;=> T
<phoe> I have no idea what's going on
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<krwq> phoe: I'll try restarting lisp - I think something weird happened
<krwq> maybe some symbol got interned in the wrong package
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<krwq> I legitimately don't know wtf
<krwq> it's not about string though
<krwq> I'm seeing method specialization with the exact types compiler claims it cannot find
<krwq> probably something stupid
<krwq> is there a way to force errors when generic functions are created implicitly when defmethod is used?
<Bike> not in any way that's not overcomplicated, i don't think.
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<krwq> omg i know, I got (foo) instead of foo and couldn't see the brackets on the error
<fourier> fe[nl]ix: I've fixed that you've requested in osicat pull requests(there are 2 from me), but there is something strange on travis - sbcl unable to install.. I guess
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<comborico1611> I've got some newb questions in the other channel, if anyone is up for it.
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<phoe> comborico1611: sure, I'm there.
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