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<borei>
can somebody point to the direction where can i find documentation for the following packages, all are prefixed with sb-
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<borei>
vm, ext and c
<borei>
im trying to learn VOPs to do some computational optimization for my project
<Bike>
those are sbcl internal packages.
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<Bike>
sb-c is compiler, sb-vm is machine-specific stuff, and sb-ext is extensions provided for you to use (ok, that's not internal, but it's sbcl specific)
<borei>
yeah, i know, but without some minimu knowledge im acting blindly
<borei>
i did copy-paste couple examples - and make them work
<borei>
but it's not enough
<Bike>
the documentation on the internals is basically all in the source files.
<Bike>
you could also ask the devs for help in #sbcl.
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<borei>
that much less activities on #sbcl channel then here
<borei>
there are ^^^
<Bike>
naturally.
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<jackdaniel>
phoe: handler-case unwinds the stack, so claim "Every condition handler is a function, and that function is executed right where the condition was signaled." is bogus
<jackdaniel>
does it cover conditions better than link to PCL?
<jackdaniel>
(your comment that is)
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<phoe>
"That function may decide to unwind the stack which allows for behaviour like C++ exceptions (see HANDLER-CASE)"
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<phoe>
jackdaniel: I said exactly that
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<jackdaniel>
condition handlers *are not always* executed right where the condition was signalled
<beach>
It depends on what you mean by "condition handler".
<beach>
I think technically it is the function that gets called, and that function may do a non-local exit.
<beach>
We should check the terminology.
<beach>
But, phoe also says that execution may continue after a call to a signaling function. I don't think that is the case for ERROR.
<phoe>
beach: ERROR calls SIGNAL first and then calls INVOKE-DEBUGGER.
<phoe>
so after SIGNAL the execution continues to INVOKE-DEBUGGER.
<phoe>
jackdaniel: HANDLER-CASE establishes two functions - a very short handler that just calls THROW #:G123 and performs a non-local exit, and a matching CATCH that contains the main body of the function.
<jackdaniel>
beach: in case of handler-bind function is called without unwinding the stack (so you can examine it) and in case of handler-case first stack is unwound and then function is called (that's why the first sentence is erronous)
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<phoe>
but that body of the function is *not* a handler itself in the strict meaning - it is not the function that gets dynamically bound.
<beach>
phoe: That's is kind of misleading in the context though. You give the impression that in (progn (error ...) (fn ...)), FN can actually be called.
<phoe>
Yes, I see.
<beach>
jackdaniel: Are you sure of that?
<phoe>
Okay - I have edited that part of the comment.
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<phoe>
beach: I'm sure that with handler-bind the stack is not unwound and with handler-case the first thing that happens is unwinding of the stack.
<jackdaniel>
beach: yes, we had to switch to handler-case* in some project to be able to print backtrace of error (not of the handler)
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<jackdaniel>
and handler-case* was a disguised handler-bind which did non-local exit from body
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<phoe>
"Every condition handler is a function, and that function may be executed right where the condition was signaled or it may may decide to unwind the stack."
<beach>
I am looking at the expansion of handler-case in SBCL, and it looks to me like the handler function is called when the stack is still not unwound.
<phoe>
now it's less nitpicky but more intuitive, I hope.
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<phoe>
The actual handlers in HANDLER-BIND only perform non-local exit to the forms that contain the actual handler bodies.
<beach>
Hmm. I see.
<beach>
Now, the question here, which one is the handler in this example.
<phoe>
Depends what you mean by "handler" because there are two conflicting definitions here.
<phoe>
Handler as in the function that gets bound by HANDLER-BIND or handler as in the function that actually executes the body.
<beach>
I don't see a conflict. to me, the handlers are (lambda (temp) ...).
<phoe>
Yep, these are the handlers to me using the strict definition.
<beach>
So the handler is always executed before the stack is unwound.
<phoe>
And they basically just call GO.
<jackdaniel>
most intuitive (for a programmer and from the abstraction perspective) is the function which handles the condition (that is - function written by the programmar who is responsible for higher-level logic)
<jackdaniel>
imho
<phoe>
Yep, that's why I edited my Reddit comment.
<beach>
jackdaniel: But in the case of HANDLER-CASE the programmer does not write any function.
<phoe>
It's better to be intuitive here than 100% correct with the standard.
<beach>
Only code in clauses.
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<jackdaniel>
"Each error-clause specifies how to handle a condition matching the indicated typespec." ← specification how to handle a condition is arguably a handler, and the way it is invoked is implementation detail
<beach>
I disagree. But I guess it is not that important.
<beach>
I know the difference. I just don't agree about what you call "handler".
<phoe>
jackdaniel: where is HANDLER-CASE* that you mention located?
<phoe>
I assume that it first executes the forms it is given and only *afterwards* performs a non-local exit. Which is useful.
<jackdaniel>
beach: spec also agrees with you "(so that the handlers established around the expression are no longer active)"
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<jackdaniel>
phoe: it is in some codebase I'm not allowed to share
<beach>
jackdaniel: Thanks.
<phoe>
jackdaniel: got it. I'll think of writing my own, then.
<phoe>
Since it *does* sound useful.
<jackdaniel>
but implementation is not super-compilcated. It looks exactly like handler-case*, but it does evaluate the expression before stack is unwound
<phoe>
yep, that's why I think I can implement it on my own.
<phoe>
...and I'm sure that handler-case* looks exactly like handler-case*, yes (:
* phoe
runs off
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<jackdaniel>
[yet I still think, that saying that handler is invoked before unwinding a stack, while technically in-par with spec is confusing, because expression is what the programmer cares about]
<phoe>
Because I see that it's correct to name the handler as the part that is bound to the condition but it's useful to name the handler as the "useful" part that calls the forms.
<phoe>
Yep
<jackdaniel>
s/spec is/spec, it is/
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<flip214>
Hmm, the CDRs on cdr.eurolisp.org/final.html have vanished - this is only a 404 now. Does somebody know the new location?
<beach>
Hmm, indentation is made much more complicated because of the presence of comments and other elements that are part of the text, but not part of the expression being read.
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<beach>
And Emacs+SLIME often gets it wrong too.
<beach>
Try for example (progn ;; comment <newline>.
* beach
instantly regrets suggesting that example; fearing that it will now be debated.
<jackdaniel>
slime seems to do fine with this one
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<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: Not if you expect the indentation to be as much as the comment (like I, and probably beach, do)
<jackdaniel>
OK
<beach>
Yes, that was my point. The comment should determine the indentation of the body.
<beach>
But, like I said, I regret bringing it up.
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<beach>
And there is of course my favorite example where Emacs indents a LET binding as if it were a form.
* beach
is pretty sure that one can not be contested.
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<dim>
well I would normally comment but I'm writing Python code nowadays
<dim>
so your quarrels about how to properly indent Lisp code... I wish I could still find that funny ;-)
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<dim>
more seriously I tend not to care much and am ok/happy with Emacs defaults most of the time, the SLIME navigation, debug, and tracing facilities are way more important to me than the indenting of the code
<dim>
that said I have some expressions in the vein (put 'bind 'common-lisp-indent-function (get 'let 'common-lisp-indent-function)) in my cl config for Emacs
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<beach>
dim: What is that you like about SLIME's debugging facilities that you don't have for other languages?
<dim>
beach: you'll laught at me for that being really the basics, but I love the fact that you can interactively try any function in the REPL and have the “advanced” tracing UI too
<dim>
the REPL isn't specific to slime, it's quite more powerful in lisp than any other language I've been playing with in the past, apart from Erlang maybe
<dim>
I'd think of Erlang as being on-par here
<dim>
doing Python, when you have e.g. a small parser to read query timings from a subprocess stdout, and want to just try that function, it's cumbersome, in lisp you just play at the REPL, and if you wonder about what happens when you run the whole program, just trace it!
<dim>
I've been missing that recently
<beach>
I definitely won't laugh at you. I am just interested, because I have seen several times in this channel people saying that SLIME is the best IDE, all languages included.
<dim>
I think such a statement would typically conflate properties of CL with those of SLIME
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<dim>
take ‘C-M-x runs the command slime-eval-defun’ as an example
<dim>
it's awesome to have that in SLIME and I use it all the time
<beach>
So for instance, I still don't know how to use SBCL to set a breakpoint at any place in the code, run the program until it stops, and then step by expression.
<dim>
the best part of it is still the CL system that you're connected to
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<dim>
breakpoints... I don't know, I just edit the code with a (break) at the right place, then C-M-x and run my test again in the REPL
<beach>
That's what I feared.
<dim>
I mostly ever do that on my own code as opposed to libs/dependencies tho
<beach>
OK, I think you answered my question.
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<dim>
I'm not a sophisticated user of programmer tools
<dim>
basically, half of the people in there use advanced debugging facilities, the other half are like “just add a printf here and there, and think hard”
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<flip214>
beach: BTW, (defmethod indentation ((symbol (eql 'package:symbol)))) works as well
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<ludston_>
Which implementation of common lisp has a stepping debugger that works intuitively? I haven't gotten sbcls to work either.
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<Xach>
ludston_: I don't know from personal experience, but I've heard the debugger experience on allegro is very good.
<Xach>
including stepping
<ludston_>
xach: cheers
<Xach>
I have used allegro a bit, but never delved deeply into the debugger; I mostly used slime's interface instead.
<Xach>
I started from SBCL so I wouldn't know what to try.
<flip214>
Shinmera: when regenerating the ELS webpages you might want to clean up the "../static/proceedings/2017.pdf" and similar links
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<Shinmera>
?
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<Shinmera>
The link works just fine for me
<Shinmera>
And I don't know what you mean by "similar links" either
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<jmercouris>
a way to print up to column x filling with characater? e.g. I want to print "fish" and then however many spaces necessary to make it equal to 10 columns or something
<jmercouris>
the idea is to print a bunch of keys/values in an easier to read way
<jmercouris>
is there a format recipe for this or something?
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<Xach>
jmercouris: ~T may come in handy
<jmercouris>
Xach: Cool, thank you, can you also tell me where I may find the other control strings in the CLHS?
<jmercouris>
I spent like 10 minutes leafing through clhs sections to find the ~T operator, I completely understand why you are working on the ultraspec
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<jmercouris>
dlowe: any disorganized document sufficiently indexed is searchable
<jmercouris>
I appreciate the links though, I'll start messaging queries to the specbot :D
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<dlowe>
I have Xach's search thing set to a custom search on my browser
<dlowe>
I should probably also use the emacs hyperspec integration more.
<dlowe>
there's even a debian package for it
<jmercouris>
dlowe: I assume you're using Next, right?
<dlowe>
no, I use Chrome like most people.
<jmercouris>
dlowe: so you wrote another search backend? why don't you publish it to the extensions wiki
<jmercouris>
dlowe: so you admit to using a plebian browser?
<Xach>
Custom search is just a settings string.
<dlowe>
yeah, it's just a special bookmark
<jmercouris>
Ah, so not nearly as powerful then
<dlowe>
it's just as powerful as the backing site :)
<jmercouris>
Ah, must be nice to be browse the utopianet where all websites accept simple arguments :D
<dlowe>
All the good ones, like Xach's
<dlowe>
They're good websites, jmercouris
<jmercouris>
There are use cases more complex than simple ones
<jmercouris>
Well yeah, they are on the utopianet, I'd expect them to be good
<jmercouris>
dlowe: I'm just messing with you, I have to shamelessly promote whenever possibe is all :D
<Xach>
I don't find it very appealing.
<jmercouris>
That's fine, you don't have to use it
<Xach>
I don't have to watch you shamelessly promote it either.
<jmercouris>
That's also true, you can close your eyes if you like
<Xach>
Let me be clear: if you promote the project by berating people for using a "plebian browser", you should not stay here.
<phoe>
^
<jmercouris>
Xach: Let me be clear: I was making a joke
<jmercouris>
who would use plebeian in a non-sarcastic manner?
<phoe>
then it was a very bad joke.
<Xach>
Not funny.
<jmercouris>
does that sound even remotely like how I normally talk?
<jmercouris>
Alright, whatever, I doubt dlowe was offended, nor anyone else
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<jmercouris>
"pleb" is a well known term in irony used in the CS space
<jmercouris>
it's not like I'm just making something up here
<jackdaniel>
I think it is enough to note, that sarcasm is not welcome here (nor aggressive advertising) and let's move to lisp topic ;-)
<dim>
jmercouris: I think a proper answer here would be “sorry, I didn't realize it could be taken as offensive and that was not my intention”
<jmercouris>
dim: I would say that if I could imagine a scenario in which it could be construed offensive, I didn't say something completely unknown, it even has a knowyourmeme page
<jmercouris>
at any rate, just to be safe, if anyone at all was offended, I apologize
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<foom>
BTW, next time, if you leave out the "if anyone at all was offended" in the middle of your apology, it would seem more sincere. It's clear that someone was offended, as per discussion above.
<dlowe>
can we just take the meta elsewhere plz?
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<dlowe>
I'll even start - I think the CLIM backend using cl-charms is brilliant and could really work for climacs or some other CL editor.
<dlowe>
one of emac's strengths is that it can be run both GUI and on a terminal.
<dlowe>
emacs'
<jackdaniel>
it will be called charming-clim :-)
<jackdaniel>
I have basic window creation working
<jackdaniel>
but I'm doing it mostly for documentation (and understanding) purposes
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<jackdaniel>
and half of the things will be of course broken (font-size, rendering non-rectangular regions etc)
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<dlowe>
Hm. Rendering regions could be done as long as you don't expect miracles.
<dlowe>
Any custom controls likely are right out.
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<dlowe>
If you can just get text panes working right, that's a lot.
<jackdaniel>
right, I hope it will be usable to some degree
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<jackdaniel>
when I was at uni I wrote checkers application in ncurses
<jackdaniel>
and when you've made font really really small, they were actual circles
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<pjb>
ludston_: don't ask which implementation has the stepper you want. Write it yourself!
<pjb>
ludston_: have a look at cl-stepper!
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<dlowe>
also, I wish there were an CL-native ncurses-like library.
<pjb>
jackdaniel: nowadays, you can use unicode in terminals…
<dlowe>
so if someone would get on that, that'd be greeeeat.
<pjb>
dlowe: won't happen, for the same reason as a CL clone of linux won't: the device drivers!
<warweasle>
dlowe: You can use pango and cairo for real control.
<pjb>
dlowe: nah, I'm just being pessimistic. It could be written easily since it's just a userland library, and the data files are available and with a public format.
<flip214>
Shinmera: I meant that you might want to change the link now visible as "../static/proceedings/2017.pdf" to be called like "Proceedings 2017" instead. (The text between <A> and </a>.)
<Xach>
dlowe: terminfo.lisp was inspiring back in the day
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<p_l>
node.js people put together a termcap/terminfo parser as part of blessed library and use that
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<beach>
dim: How it reassuring that half of the developers don't use good tools? To me, it is very disturbing.
<beach>
flip214: I don't think that will work, because I want to be able to edit code even though the package has not been created yet.
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<pjb>
beach: remember, every 5 years, the programmer population doubles. Which means that there are basically 50% of -5 year newbies.
<pjb>
beach: Probably also means that the CS teachers are also 50% newbies.
<shrdlu68>
The biggest challenge with writing a curses library in CL is controlling the terminal mode.
<dim>
beach: paraphrasing the book (which is real good, you would enjoy it), or rather what I recall about it, the more important tool you need is good thinking, the rest just helps with that
<pjb>
shrdlu68: of course, some CFFI will have to be involved (unless you use clisp of course).
<pjb>
clisp already has the primitive to put the terminal in raw mode…
<pjb>
Good old faithful clisp…
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<beach>
dim: Yes, but the corollary is that if your thinking is already good, it would be foolish to decline the use of tools that may save a lot of time and energy.
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<pjb>
beach: you should become meta teacher.
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<dim>
beach: indeed. provided they actually save time and energy...
<beach>
dim: Which you can't know until you try time.
<beach>
try them.
<beach>
pjb: CS teachers are almost 100% newbies. And I can explain that some day if you like. It has to do with the career path of a typical CS teacher.
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<White_Flame>
CS also isn't about programming, thus doesn't focus on using good tools
<pjb>
This is deferred to TA, but still…
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<dim>
beach: of course there's something to what you're saying, then there's also the learning curve and investment and triaging the good tools in the myriad of available ones, etc
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<beach>
pjb: In fact, ironically, the typical CS teacher is unfit to teach undergraduate classes (because those classes are general, and they don't have any experience with the general stuff), but they are qualified to teach the masters courses, because they are supposed to be about their research specialty.
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<dim>
CS education is about culture and how to think, in my view, not about how to become a good worker who knows a given toolset
<White_Flame>
CS is ideally about the "science" of computation
<beach>
dim: Yeah, tell that to the software industry, and see where they would turn instead to get qualified employees.
<dim>
beach: ah, real life trade offs, already ;-)
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<beach>
dim: Also, tell that to my colleagues worldwide, who are convinced that what industry wants is what industry needs.
<TMA>
dim: it depends on the school -- some CS uni programmes are more trade school than science
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<beach>
TMA: He is right though. They really shouldn't be called CS. And of course they aren't in most countries.
<beach>
They aren't called that, I mean.
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<TMA>
yes. they call both programmes 'informatics'
<dim>
industry is also famous for wanting to hire juniors, fresh out of school, with low salary because they don't have any experience, but with the same skills as professionals with 2 to 5 years of exeprience
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<dim>
IOW I think the industry perfectly realises that you don't know how to do your job when you're just out of school, and learning that takes a good 2 to 5 years, and that's normal and expected; it's just that nobody wants to be paying for that
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<dim>
but to go from there and say that the public schools should be paying for that is not good thinking in my book
<dim>
but now we're talking philosophy and soon enough politics, I fear
<beach>
That's a political decision similar to other decisions about industry subsidies. I don't have a problem with that.
<beach>
What I have a problem with is that my colleagues worldwide truly believe that industry is so good that they actually know what they need, so when the express some desires, these colleagues rush to satisfy them, rather than doing the research to figure out what industry actually needs, and teach that instead.
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<dim>
what about training people to be smart and capable of learning new technologies by themselves thanks to a very solid theoretical background, and then letting them figure out what their employer/customer need?
<beach>
That is a possibility. It requires a PhD, which industry then won't hire because it is too expensive, and it won't give them what they want (and think they need).
<beach>
And this is on topic, because in my opinion, industry needs people who know Common Lisp. But industry doesn't know that, because the decision makers in industry don't have sufficient education, experience, and knowledge to know that.
<dim>
I'm not too sure about that requiring a PhD as opposed to the years of PhD training currently being almost the only ones where we are used to treat students as being smart and capable young adults
* dim
afk for awhile
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<beach>
In my opinion, most masters students are incapable of reading and understanding research papers, make a literature search, and such. And that is something that is required to determine what a particular employer needs, simple because it is rare that the employer work smack in the specialty of the employee.
<jmercouris>
beach: are most of the things an employee needs to learn for a job available in the scientific literature?
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<jmercouris>
It is my opinion that most of the things people spend learning are internal processes, programs, culture, things like that
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<beach>
jmercouris: You are right. But I am not discussing what is needed for a job. I am saying the exact opposite, that many employers focus on their internal culture, which is usually very primitive, and they don't know that they could make way more money by doing things differently.
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<jmercouris>
Ah, okay, I see that now, an interesting point
<jmercouris>
there are sometimes unions of companies that share knowledge with each other, these focus on a "community" of knowledge
<jmercouris>
I'm trying to remember the term for it, I think it is something like "open innovation network"
<beach>
Yes, and it is usually things like which version of Oracle should be bought.
<rme>
lol
<jmercouris>
I wouldn't know as I've never participated in such a network, but I beleive that they are supposed to serve a different purpose
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<jmercouris>
something about amortizing the cost of developing expensive new technologies, and combining different technologies and patents to produce new products
<beach>
So we currently have this vicious cycle, where decision makers in industry are using primitive techniques and tools, so they want employees who master those, so they go to the university and require those tools. And my colleagues believe them and teach those tools, thereby maintaining the industry at a very primitive level.
<TMA>
I think that learning common lisp made me a better programmer even though I never use it in any employment-related work
<jmercouris>
TMA: how can we quantify that though?
<beach>
TMA: I am convinced that you are not alone.
<jmercouris>
we need to scientifically prove something to convince the "bean counters"
<beach>
jmercouris: No, not at all.
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<beach>
We need to avoid that bean counters make strategy decisions.
<TMA>
jmercouris: I have no idea how ro measure that
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<jmercouris>
That is the ultimate solution indeed
<jmercouris>
but we're not there yet, we'd need some sort of stopgap measure
<jmercouris>
or some way to usurp and reshape the corporate structure
<jmercouris>
possibly a very influential book or some "successful company" pitching it, so there can be many copycat companies
<beach>
If current CEOs make decisions that could be made by a spreadsheet program, they should be replaced by one.
<jmercouris>
many CEOs make decisions via spreadsheet to defer blame to the spreadsheet
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<jmercouris>
if they make a decision based on some difficult to measure criteria, the shareholders will be at their neck when it goes belly up, regardless of the reason
<beach>
So the CEOs are not only spreadsheets. They are spineless spreadsheets.
<jmercouris>
Well, sometimes
<beach>
In reality, you credit them with too much knowledge.
<beach>
They make decisions based on what their friend CEOs decide.
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<jmercouris>
I've also never been a CEO, but, you might be right
<jmercouris>
that's why I also mentioned "copycat" companies, who just kind of steal ideas and attempt to apply them to their company
<jmercouris>
e.g. google style interviews to work on a drupal cms site
<beach>
While there are startup companies and small companies that can make lots of money without being technically very advanced, and instead have good ideas about the market, I am convinced that most developers work for biggish established companies where innovation is not the most important.
<beach>
Instead, what they need is to improve productivity to keep up with competition. That is where it is important to evolve with new tools, better developer knowledge and experience, etc. And this is failing miserably in most companies. I say that because I have not seen a single such company with a good strategy for improving productivity.
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<beach>
... and I have seen many biggish established companies.
<jmercouris>
beach: innovation is very important in big companies, at least any with any staing power. when we see an incumbent corporation not innovating it is usually because they are working on commodity product, or there is not replacement technology in the pipeline
<jmercouris>
the reality is that the market will change, always, for every product, it is not enough to simply improve throughput overtime
<jmercouris>
even something as simple as "salt" has a market that has changed dramatically in terms of distribution throughout time
<flip214>
beach: ah, right. well, if the package isn't even defined yet, you won't need any special-case handling, anyway!
<jmercouris>
s/staing/staying - my keyboard is sticky
<beach>
flip214: I need it, but I can't use the name of the symbol.
<flip214>
hmmm, if I dont
<flip214>
If I don't forget, I'll ask you about that during ELS.
<beach>
Sure, no problem.
<flip214>
or now, just preemptively create the package ;)
<TMA>
innovation is dangeorous in biggish companies -- it is not predictable; yet it is vital; the solution is to have a specialized department where there are smart people herded with the hope that they will produce something of value every now and then
<flip214>
or use the colon in the symbol name... (EQL 'indent-symbol-package:|CL:FLET|)
<jmercouris>
TMA: That is just one of many strategies, another I talked about is an open innovation network which can reduce the risk, allow for patent sharing among companies etc
<beach>
flip214: It is something similar that I ended up doing.
<Xach>
I was thining idly today about how implementations could extend CL in ways that would not be used by existing programs, and the triple colon sprung to mind...
<Xach>
thinking, rather.
<jmercouris>
additionally, since technology follows the S-shaped curve, a company need not invest in a technology right away, it's not a bunch of people sitting in labcoats hoping that stuff happens, usually they shoot off some piece of existing research with an expected goal
<TMA>
except that the innovation shall never touch processes running outside the innovation pen (at least not too substantially)
<jmercouris>
TMA: Beach: If any of you are interested in innovation practcies, with respect to operational efficiency, I have a good reccomendation
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<beach>
jmercouris: What form does your recommendation take?
<flip214>
Xach: just follow perl6 and use unicode characters... «» for quoting etc.
<jmercouris>
beach: It is a book about the topic, there are specific chapters that I think you'd find pretty interesting
<beach>
I'll take the recommendation.
<TMA>
jmercouris: I am interested in way too many things I shall not be (== do not fit my job description), why not another?
<jmercouris>
long URL, but the book is called "Operations, Strategy, and Technology: Pursuing the Competitive Edge"
<beach>
Here is one of my favorite stories (from a few years back). We were planning to develop some collaboration with a big consulting company, so I suggested my services. I said "give me a program of say 30kLOC of C [that's what they were using], and I will make a free audit, the result of which will be recommendations for new tools, training for the developers, etc."
<beach>
The manager said "no thank you". I am assuming he was not interested in knowing how his productivity could be improved, or (stated differently) how bad it really was.
<beach>
jmercouris: Thanks!
<flip214>
jmercouris: thanks, sounds interesting
<jmercouris>
beach: No problem
<jmercouris>
flip214: np!
<flip214>
beach: you could have produced a 1000 line rewrite in CL with all the features, to ask "want to know how to do that?"
<jmercouris>
beach: A lot of people are afraid of change, with change comes risk, with risk comes getting fired :D
<beach>
Here is another: I was consulting for a company who had written an application in C++, but when they got to testing, they introduced one bug for every bug the fixed. A large part of the problem was memory management, freeing objects that were still used.
<beach>
So I suggested a radical solution, namely to include the Boehm/Wiser GC. The project manager told me "I prefer that my programmers clean up the objects that they allocate, rather than having a GC do it for them".
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<warweasle>
beach: GAH!
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<beach>
I have dozens of stories like that.
<warweasle>
If for nothing else you can use it to debug their memory management.
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<beach>
Heh, yes, indeed.
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<beach>
But it was unfixable because of the architecture they had decided upon, long before I was called in to help.
<beach>
flip214: I almost did that.
<flip214>
I can offer a war story or two, too... but not here, perhaps at ELS.
<beach>
Good plan. Over a beer or a glass of wine.
<warweasle>
beach: My favorite story was a project where they were measuring productivity by lines of code. One week I halved the lines of code. They were so upset I offered to put them back in.
<beach>
Haha! Nice.
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<warweasle>
It's hard to get this crew together for a pint.
<beach>
Sunday night before the show is a good candidate.
<flip214>
anybody from the US here who's coming to ELS?
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<beach>
flip214: drmeister and Bike I would think.
<flip214>
ping ^^?
<beach>
Maybe more from drmeister's crew.
<jmercouris>
Bike is from the US? I thought he was Ukranian?
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<beach>
flip214: Why do you want to know?
<jmercouris>
maybe they can rideshare
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<warweasle>
flip214: No dice. I'm stuck in the US. No vacation or left over cash.
<beach>
Bike is definitely American.
<flip214>
warweasle: thanks anyway!
<warweasle>
Everyone should just pop over here for a cookout.
<flip214>
beach: jmercouris: no, but the recommended book is (used) available for $8+$4 from amazon.com in the US.
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<flip214>
no ebook; amazon.de doesn't ship it to me
<flip214>
but never mind
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<jmercouris>
when I am going to the US, I can probably pick up a copy for you
<jmercouris>
since I am returning to Germany it will also be convenient
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<beach>
Scott McKay is on the ELS program committee. Maybe he will show up this year. He occasionally does.
<beach>
... and he is from the US.
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<flip214>
beach: thanks a lot... perhaps the issue is already solved.
<beach>
Good.
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<rme>
I'm planning to come to the ELS from the US.
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<jasom>
jmercouris: you asked for a link yesterday, but I'm not sure what-to
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<jmercouris>
jasom: I can't remember either :\
<jmercouris>
if I figure it out I'll let you know
<jmercouris>
I do know what you are talking about though
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<sukaeto>
re: industry not hiring PhDs/not paying them enough
<sukaeto>
my company has a handful of them, we get payed more than we would if we were professors
<sukaeto>
I do devops, most of the rest work on the core product
<sukaeto>
that being said, there are people on my team whom I know make more than I do because they've been in industry for longer than I have and also only have undergrad degrees
<jasom>
sukaeto: on the other hand, after my Dad got his PhD, he had more than one job interview end with "We don't hire people with PhDs"
<sukaeto>
it's a small sample size, but I think it's an encouraging one nonetheless
<jasom>
he had ~15 years of industry experience at that point
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<sukaeto>
jasom: I've gotten that too. I was even told by one company that they were looking for someone with more experience for an entry level position! As if being from academia meant you had negative work experience!
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<sukaeto>
I know another guy with a PhD who works for a company that generally has a disdain for people from academia (he only got in there because of another guy who knew him and lobbied hard for him)
<sukaeto>
from what I know about that company and their engineering practices, I wouldn't want to work there.
<jasom>
I think that "PhDs can't code" probably stems from the fact that many places use general CS knowledge as the gateway to hiring, and obviosly, if two people have equally bad coding skills, the one with the PhD will have better general CS knowledge
<sukaeto>
it's probably not fair to extrapolate from that one example to every company that refuses to higher people with terminal degrees, but it does make me wonder.
<sukaeto>
s/higher/hire/
<sukaeto>
jasom: there's probably some truth to that, for sure
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<TMA>
there was a joke told before the fall of the eastern bloc: a professor learned that factory workers have higher wages than professors. He dressed down and applied. After several months there was an annoucement that those that will attend evening high school will get a raise. He went there, math exam question: compute the area of a circle. He did not remember the formula, so he derived it using integrals, but the result was -pi*r^2. He looked at it baffled when there c
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<jmercouris>
you have me on edge here
<TMA>
it is only a joke, but it is funny because it is real in some sense
<jmercouris>
there c ... what?
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<TMA>
... there came a hint from another student: "you have swapped the limits of the integration."
<jmercouris>
lol that's hilarious
<TMA>
the sad part is that the wage disparity was real then -- the educated were not the "preferred" [[in a sense it is still the case, because of the model of financing universities here]]
<dTal>
ah, this is like the waitress joke
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<Lycurgus>
so it's an outrage that factory workers would have higher wages?
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<Shinmera>
Please >>#politics
<shka>
Lycurgus: especially miners, but whatever, you can google it
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<shka>
Shinmera: good evening!
<shka>
i forgot to wish you awesomeness at ELS
<Shinmera>
Well ELS isn't for a while.
<Lycurgus>
shka, yeah miners have especially dirty/arduous work
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<dTal>
A mathematics professor and their student are eating lunch in a cafe. The professor laments that regular folk just aren't educated or interested in mathematics. While he's in the toilet, the student gets an idea. He calls over the waitress, slips her $5, and says "In a minute, I'm going to ask you a question. I want you to answer 'one third ex cubed'." The waitress agrees.
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<dTal>
The professor returns from the toilet and the student says, "You know, you're wrong about people. I bet you $20 that our waitress can do at least basic calculus." The professor scoffs and readily agrees to the bet. So they call the waitress over.
<Lycurgus>
is the punch line the guy in the toilet gave her 10?
<Bike>
plux dd
<Bike>
plus c, rather
<dTal>
The student says to the waitress, "We were wondering if you could settle a question for us. Could you by any chance tell us the integral of ex squared?"
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<dTal>
"One third x cubed", the waitress replies, walking away,
<dTal>
and adds, over her shoulder, "plus a constant"
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<shka>
meh
<shka>
nice joke, but Bike spoiled it
<dTal>
Bike ruined it
<shka>
Bike: you terrible human being
<dTal>
you are bad and you should feel bad
<shka>
:(((
<Lycurgus>
yeah, wonder what dd was though some differential think maybe
<Lycurgus>
*thing
<Bike>
that was my fingers being misaligned with the contacts of my electromechanical data input device
<Lycurgus>
ah
<jackdaniel>
beach: phoe: guess what I found today in clim-inspector sources? (one of the top lines)... "(define-modify-macro togglef () not)" ^_^
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<jackdaniel>
clouseau°
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<shrdlu68>
The lesson here is that it is okay for math professors to cheat in exams.
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<__rumbler31>
jackdaniel: lol
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<jmercouris>
thoughts on cl-interpol? generally liked/disliked by the community?
<jmercouris>
I really like the idea, but it doesn't feel very lispy, same with format really
<jmercouris>
it feels like its own mini language
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<__rumbler31>
when I need to quote something that would otherwise make escaping natural quoting rules insane, I used it once
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<__rumbler31>
it made integration a little tricky, because the package has to be loaded before code that depends on it can be loaded and at the time I didn't know how to automate that without opening up the repl and doing them one at a time
<jmercouris>
appears to be quite a few people depending on cl-interpol
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<__rumbler31>
I used it to house an xml document representing an android framework on a string, without having to escape all the "
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<Mr_Tea>
wow lots of people
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<k-hos>
ha
<k-hos>
'people'
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<jmercouris>
k-hos: I think you mean "people", 'people' is invalid syntax
<Mr_Tea>
'people
<jmercouris>
(defvar people ())
<jmercouris>
(push "Mr_Tea" people)
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<Shinmera>
jmercouris: Why do you insist on making these poor variables freeze?
<jackdaniel>
less you know about tasks easier they look
<Shinmera>
Maybe you just don't realise how hard it is to do right.
<jmercouris>
perhaps my implementations have been terrible without my knowledge
<jmercouris>
it is just one of those things that I understand really well though
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: do you know what a special operator is (in CL)?
<jackdaniel>
if yes, could you name three special operators and why they are not ordinary macros?
<jmercouris>
I've not implemented something that generates ASTs for Lisp
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<jmercouris>
anyways, is this a competition designd to make me look stupid?
<jackdaniel>
if not, then this will be way harder than you imagine
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<jackdaniel>
no, it is designed to make you realise something (and prevent you from wasting time, or at least to estimate effort more accurately)
<jackdaniel>
you should be more grateful than accusing here, but whatever
<jmercouris>
don't worry, I won't venture to build one for Lisp, I've spent enough wasted time trying to implement languages :D
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<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: it feels more like a challenge due to a manner of phrasing than a friendly suggestion at introspection is all, there seems to be some communicaiton barrier between us. I'll henceforth always assume your intent is positive
<jmercouris>
because it turns out to be so more often than not, and I am just misunderstanding
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<razzy>
so, it has not beed done in lisp
<jmercouris>
I don't think anyone said that, maybe it has
<razzy>
is it been done in automated way in haskell?
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<razzy>
yop, AST is what i mean :]. it shine when you do have purely functional code. you could notice bad behaviour from one look at topology :].
<Bike>
implementations can provide information about what functions are called by a given function
<Bike>
they sort of have to know, for linking reasons, and you can sometimes get the information from like slime-list-callers
<dim>
razzy: pjb (informatimago) has a CL walker that you can reuse
<dim>
I think\
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<jackdaniel>
implementation may provide walker as a contrib
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<_death>
slime comes with xref.lisp, which from the look of it can print call graphs
<jackdaniel>
(because you never know if it has some sneaky special operator in ext package and which is used in expansion of standard macros)
<Bike>
do you need to do it from source, or is having the actual functions in the image okay? because if it's the latter i'd really rely on the introspection tools
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<jasom>
jmercouris: walking the AST is hard in lisp primarily because of two reasons; firstly there are macros; e.g. you can guess that this binds x, but can't know it: (with-foo (x :y z) (bar x))
<Bike>
you can't?
<jasom>
jmercouris: so you say "just expand all the macros before walking" which brings us to the second problem; the CL standard permits standard special forms and macros to be expanded into forms that do not exist in the standard, so you can end up with code that could do anything.
<Bike>
right.
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<jasom>
if you were to reimplement all of the evaluation rules for all standard macros and special forms, then you could selectively expand macros not in CL, and possibly end up with something sane.
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<jasom>
but even then you have things like backtick, which can expand to non-standard forms at read-time :(
<jasom>
try this in sbcl: (car '`foo)
<jasom>
not sure what that expands to in ccl, but I'd bet a large sum of money that it's not SB-INT:QUASIQUTE
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<Bike>
itll macroexpand into something boring, at least
<jmercouris>
jasom: I didn't know about the second part, but that makes sense
<jmercouris>
e.g. the second problem listed
<Bike>
i think the only sbcl code walker problem, i.e. the only special operator that's messed up implementation specifically, is the extra function names FUNCTION allows
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<Bike>
which i think is a (minor) lack in the standard, honestly
<Bike>
there's an sb-ext:truly-the special operator, but it has a macroexpansion into the as it ought to
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<Bike>
hmm, i might be wrong, there's another half dozen special operators i've never seen before...
<jmercouris>
jasom: thanks for the explanation
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<Bike>
though i don't think %primitive is going to show up even in macroexpansions, it's just for inline expansions at worst
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<__rumbler31>
yea I don't understand this thread, but i'm intrigued, and have to go. Happy V day y'all
<jmercouris>
__rumbler31: Happy Valentines day!
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