<fiddlerwoaroof_>
It's nice to have all the configuration in one place for debugging purposes
<jmercouris>
fiddlerwoaroof_: That might be useful for a sort of config-tool that I'll develop later for people who don't wish to write lisp, thank you for the link!
<jmercouris>
I can definitely see the value add, but I don't want to stray too much from the emacs way
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<bms_>
Hello.
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<jmercouris>
bms_: hello
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<bms_>
How are you?
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<jmercouris>
I'm doing well, how about yourself?
<jmercouris>
maybe we should move this lispcafe if you wish to have a conversation
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<bms_>
Sure.
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<aeth>
jmercouris: I don't think Emacs is a good model for how to do something in a configurable way.
<aeth>
It's old so it pre-dates pretty much every good idea. (Well, sometimes it didn't pre-date those ideas and RMS was just too stubborn to implement them in Emacs.)
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<aeth>
I mean, ideas relating to configuring large applications, which for the most part didn't really exist until the late 80s and 90s
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<aeth>
I don't think emacs's hook system is the best way to do things
<jmercouris>
aeth: Emacs leaves a lot to be desired
<jmercouris>
I'm not as stubborn as RMS, I'm willing to let the program evolve
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<loli>
it just gives you a warning, as you should use defvar or defparameter first
<asarch>
Thank you
<mfiano>
amoung a few others, like LET
<asarch>
Thank you very much :-)
<Bike>
asarch: the compiler hasn't been told the variable is special, so accessing its value is undefined behavior that can differ between implementations.
<Bike>
clhs examples sometimes act as if it is defined behavior and that it will work like clisp. but examples aren't normative. it's a bit confusing, unfortunately.
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<asarch>
Why LET has a body form?
<asarch>
What if I don't what to "use" that body form? Can I "omit" it?
<loli>
as let variables are local
<Bike>
you can, but then the let is useless.
<Bike>
let doesn't set variables, it binds them. these bindings are only in effect within the body forms.
<loli>
you are letting a list of variables, not just a single one
<Bike>
this is valid but is useless, and sbcl might warn you about its uselessness.
<asarch>
Does it always use the double parentheses?
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<loli>
yes
<Bike>
it's because you can bind more than one thing, like (let ((a 4) (b 7)) ...), as loli said.
<loli>
you can make a macro to abstract it away, as people sometimes define let1
<Bike>
the syntax is (let list-of-bindings ...body...)
<asarch>
So, a "binding" is what a variable would be in other languages, right? And a "binding form" would be the assignation statement, right?
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<loli>
well you are letting a variable, it just has limited scope, much like how {int i; return i + 1;} is only in scope within the {}'s
<Bike>
it's like if you were to say "let x be the number of cats in this house. then the number of cats in the other house is twice x." x is bound to some number, but only temporarily, and doesn't mean anything in particular outside of the scope of the sentence.
<asarch>
"The skeleton of a LET form looks like this: (let (variable*) body-form*)" <- From PCl, chapter six
<Bike>
well, that's a bit confusing i'd say
<Bike>
when you write (let ((x 4)) ...), the the variable X is bound to the value 4
<Bike>
is how i would phrase it
<asarch>
In the jargon of Lisp, "x would be a binding with the value of 4", right?
<Bike>
i don't think so.
<Bike>
x is a variable.
<loli>
you have bound x (the variable) to the value 4
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<asarch>
"A binding is the runtime manifestation of a variable."
<Bike>
Also PCL?
<asarch>
Yeah
<asarch>
The only book I have
<Bike>
I might also say something like, "there is a binding of X to 4"
<Bike>
these are terms that are originally derived from the particularly boring kind of philosophy that eventually became programming
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<Bike>
don't overthink too much, they're like, nearly english a normal person could understand
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<asarch>
?
<asarch>
Ok
<asarch>
So, if LET was C, then it would be something like: {int foo = 10; funtion() { /* You can now use 'foo' as you wish */}}; /* Here, 'foo' doesn't exist */
<asarch>
Right?
<Bike>
yes. it is very similar to bracket scoping in C.
<asarch>
Yes!
<Bike>
what C calls "automatic variables", if you know that terminology.
<Bike>
it gets more complicated when you bring closures and such into the equation, though.
<Bike>
i suppose you will get to that later.
<asarch>
Ok
<loli>
closures with side effects are fun, too bad I don't play around with them too much
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<Bike>
the major difference with C is that C requires the programmer to understand when things are allocated. space for an automatic variable, like foo in your example, is allocated at entry to the block (iirc) and deallocated on exit. lisp is not this strict.
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<asarch>
Thank you guys
<asarch>
Thank you very much :-)
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<holycow>
ornin
<holycow>
+m even
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<jmercouris>
rme: Is it possible to generate new headers without ffigen?
<rme>
I suppose you could write an s-expression-based .ffi file by hand and process it with parse-ffi. But I don't know if that's really practical.
<jmercouris>
so maybe we can use the new cocoa api
<jmercouris>
man this eschaton guy is always making ridiculous suggestions
<jmercouris>
the other day he was suggesting to me that I simply implement an entire web engine in common lisp, like it was some trivial task
<jmercouris>
rme: thanks for the link, I'll see if I can contribute anything, probably not since this is not my area of expertise, but I'll try
<rme>
When things are in the interface db, you can sometimes use objc-message-send by hand. For example, (objc:objc-message-send data #/base64Encoding)
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<rme>
(where data is an NSData object)
<jmercouris>
rme: YOu said you have an ffigen binary that works
<jmercouris>
Why don't you just regenerate the headers?
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<rme>
Uh, that's a very good question.
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<jmercouris>
I did try the objc-message-send approach, maybe at the time my syntax was wrong, or something, I could try it again
<jmercouris>
I don't believe the API i'm looking for is within the interface db
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<rme>
I just made a note to try to build new headers. Probably I won't do it until Monday. You want updated webkit headers in particular, or all of Cocoa?
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<jmercouris>
rme: I'm trying to just use wkwebview
<jmercouris>
which is the new interface to webkit, or rather the new webkit even
<jmercouris>
rme: No rush, feel better!
<rme>
OK WKWebView (in the WebKit framework), got it.
<rme>
maybe we'll get lucky and my previously-built ffigen will do the job
<jmercouris>
*fingers crossed*
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<phoe>
(defun foo (bar) (setf bar (frob bar)))
<phoe>
Is this defined behavior?
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<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
BAR is just like any local lexical variable.
<beach>
It is not a great idea though, because when there is a problem and you look at the backtrace, you no longer see the original argument, only the modified one.
<beach>
So it's much better to do (defun foo (bar) (let ((baz (frob bar))) ...))
<beach>
Oh, maybe you argument in the caller will change? It won't.
<phoe>
No no, I was just making sure that doing such is 100% correct.
<phoe>
Thanks.
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<flip214>
phoe: you can also do (defun foo (bar) (let ((bar (frob bar))) ...))
<flip214>
ie. create a new binding.
<flip214>
you should then see the new value as local variable, and the original function argument in the backtrace.
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<phoe>
flip214: correct, thanks.
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<flip214>
what's the best way to get to Marbella from Malaga? Using a train?
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<phoe>
Now I need to get to Malaga at all... Gah, this is going to be a trip.
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<beach>
flip214: Bus I hear.
<beach>
phoe: We plan to stay in Madrid or some other intermediate place for a night or two, just to break up the trip.
<phoe>
beach: hm. I see.
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<Shinmera>
Apparently it's a 1 hour bus trip.
<Shinmera>
And costs around 5€
<Shinmera>
So, really, no big deal. Except when your flight back is super early, I guess.
<Shinmera>
While taking a bus is slower than the train, it is significantly cheaper and can take as little as 45 minutes to arrive in Marbella. All Malaga to Marbella buses are run by Avanza. All buses are direct, depart from Malaga Estación de Autobuses bus station and arrive at Marbella Estación De Autobuses.
<Shinmera>
Whoops
<Shinmera>
Accidental copy paste
<phoe>
I have no direct flights to Malaga that suit ELS times.
<Shinmera>
Uugh why would any website write things in AM/PM. I don't know if "12:55PM" is "0:55" or actually "12:55"
<Shinmera>
phoe: The thing is there's two conventions
<Shinmera>
You can't possibly know.
<phoe>
Shinmera: wtf
<phoe>
Really?
<phoe>
I only know the above one
<beach>
12:55pm is in the afternoon.
<beach>
Only 12:00 is ambiguous if you don't use noon/midnight.
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<Shinmera>
Looks like the cheapest flight I can get is like 220Chf. Cursory look at hotels nearby would clock in at around 150Chf. Definitely isn't going to be as cheap as it was in Krakow.
<beach>
Actually, we might take a flight from Bordeaux to Malaga (change in Madrid) and stay in Malaga for a night or two.
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<phoe>
Definitely, Krakow needs to see more ELS.
<phoe>
(Disclaimer: I live in Krakow. :)
<beach>
Careful, someone might take you up on that, and you'll find yourself being the local organizer.
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<phoe>
beach: I think I can manage. I know enough people on the Jagiellonian University to do most of the heavy lifting for me.
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<beach>
Fine then. I certainly wouldn't mind going to Krakow again for ELS.
<phoe>
(Note: JU is a different school than AGH that hosted ELS 2016.)
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<beach>
Closer to the center, right?
<Shinmera>
I'd still like an ELS in Zürich sometime, but that's a long time off.
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<phoe>
Depends. JU is really all around Cracow. Has four different campuses and multiple buildings that are placed elsewhere.
<jackdaniel>
` "X86-64" cannot be printed readably.` – does it ring a bell to somebody? this is docker image in travis CI with somewhate old SBCL (nothing I can do about it) – here is a full log: https://api.travis-ci.org/v3/job/328525197/log.txt
<jackdaniel>
search engine scan didn't show up with anything related to it
<beach>
Shinmera: It's a very expensive place. You might need some subsidies to keep the fee low.
<jackdaniel>
(sbcl 1.3.1 *)
<Shinmera>
beach: Well yeah, asking Google or ETH would've been the thing to do. I just don't think I have the time and connections yet to do so
<beach>
Shinmera: You will over time.
<Shinmera>
Hence why I said it's a long time off :)
<beach>
Sure, yes.
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<flip214>
Shinmera: thanks for the information!
<flip214>
but yeah, flying to Malaga are not that easy...
<Shinmera>
flip214: I just typed "Malaga to Marbella" into google
<flip214>
good enough
<flip214>
I just thought that Spaniards would know and tell us here
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<pjb>
flip214: why isn't flying to Malaga not easy? Depending on the flight company, going to Gibraltar may be easier (and not farther to Marbella than Malaga).
<pjb>
Malaga to Marbella or Gibralta to Marbella is usually done by route, (autobus or car).
<pjb>
(quite scenic roads in both cases).
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<pagnol>
I need something like an entity store and am evaluating different approaches
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<Shinmera>
What do you understand by an entity store?
<Shinmera>
Or in other words: what do you want to do?
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<pagnol>
I have entities and every entity has key-value pairs and I want to store them persistently on disk
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<Shinmera>
Can you store it all in memory? What kind of values are we talking about?
<pagnol>
in my case there are entity types, too, an entity type says which key-value pairs an entity must have and of which type the values must have
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<pagnol>
yes, it's not going to be very big
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<pagnol>
the values are going to be strings, integers, and references to other entities
<pagnol>
bools
<Shinmera>
Ah, so you have cross-references, okey.
<pagnol>
this looks like a serialization library... maybe it's not what you mean
<Shinmera>
It is
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<pagnol>
I fail to see right away how I could use
<pagnol>
this
<tazjin>
pagnol: maybe you want something like cl-prevalence?
<Shinmera>
pagnol: As I understand it from your explanation you have some kind of object that acts as an entity and you'd like to persist them to disk, yeah?
<pagnol>
that's right
<Shinmera>
So that's what conspack does. Packs stuff to disk.
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<Shinmera>
If you need to have it automatically persist to disk when a change in any of the values occurs then things get more complicated of course.
<pagnol>
I have an existing program that I want to rewrite and which is relying on an rdbms with a messy eav-like layout, and I was looking at the problem from that angle
<pagnol>
I don't necessarily need an rdbms but I do need the ACID properties
<pagnol>
I was hoping to find something that gives me ACID and also lets me enforce the schema without having to write a lot of code myself, especially the validity of entity references
<pagnol>
btw I will be using this only from lisp, so the potential lack of implementations in other languages is not an issue
<pagnol>
tazjin, cl-prevalence looks interesting
<pagnol>
tazjin, are you using it yourself?
<tazjin>
pagnol: I'm only using it for a little toy project, for "real" things I use postgres, but cl-prevalence works well
<tazjin>
pagnol: search for the calls to cl-prevalence:* stuff in gemma.lisp
<tazjin>
it's very straightforward
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<pagnol>
tazjin, lovely project ;-)
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<tazjin>
pagnol: I'm experimenting with a hardware-based interface for it!
<tazjin>
because the main problem with the concept is that things like web apps have waaay too much friction
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<pagnol>
tazjin, so are you setting up a separate device that reminds people of tasks?
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<tazjin>
pagnol: well, I basically want to translate the UI of the web app into a physical thing - the fun part is that I know nothing about "making" (in the sense of building physical tech), so this is a cool side project
<tazjin>
pagnol: the idea is to have a sort of board with the tasks on it, where on the backend the tasks are now linked to slots on the physical board, and then there's indicator LEDs for the red/green/yellow statuses and an actual physical button for resetting the completion timer of each task
<tazjin>
so you'd look at it and do the things that are on yellow
<tazjin>
(and hopefully never let anything get to red!)
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<pagnol>
tazjin, I've also always wanted to learn how to make actual physical devices that do something... I wish you luck
<tazjin>
hehe
<tazjin>
we have a nice makerspace here in Oslo that I'm going to be consulting to get some help :P
<tazjin>
and thanks!
<pagnol>
what are you using as a platform?
<pagnol>
if any
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<tazjin>
you mean hardware-wise? I don't really know yet, I've only done some sketching of how I want things to be.
<tazjin>
I have an Arduino starter kit somewhere that I never got around to using for anything so that's probably a good entrypoint
<pagnol>
Shinmera, thanks for suggesting rucksack earlier, I'm going to play around with it a little
<pagnol>
building a project on it seems like a somewhat risky undertaking though, given that it hasn't been maintained in the past 7 years
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<Shinmera>
No activity can also mean that it just works
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<phoe>
if a program has no users, does it contain bugs? #lispzen
<ebzzry>
How do I read specific number of lines from a file stream?
<jackdaniel>
(dotimes (v 4) (read-line *file-stream*))
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<phoe>
(loop repeat 4 collect (read-line stream))
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<phoe>
that is, if we want to collect the results - DOTIMES will discard the result.
<ebzzry>
jackdaniel: thanks
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<jackdaniel>
I'm a big fan of `collecting' macro from cmu utilities, it unties collection from loop construct and is very handy
<phoe>
jackdaniel: I see. This can be used instead of loop's COLLECT.
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<Shinmera>
Here's another version :^) (prog((i n))x(and(< 0 i)(decf i)(read-line s NIL)(go x)))
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<Shinmera>
Actually this is even better: (prog((i 3))i(and(< 0 i)(decf i)(read-line s NIL)(go i)))
<Shinmera>
well, change the 3 to an n, but you get the point. (the point is you shouldn't use this)
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<phoe>
>(the point is you shouldn't use this)
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<Shinmera>
The hidden point is that I like to write intentionally obtuse answers to simple questions.
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<_death>
(define-symbol-macro _ (progn (format t "Enter a specific number: ") (force-output) (read))) ;; you know the rest
<phoe>
_
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<pagnol>
is there a tutorial anywhere that explains how mop metaclasses are used?
<pagnol>
alternatively some sample code would do as well
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<Bike>
"how they're used" covers a lot of things. is there something in particular that you want to do?
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<pagnol>
I was wondering if/how I could use mop for my current project in which I load a schema definition on startup, which is then used to check if certain objects that are created are conformant
<pagnol>
I was wondering if it would be possible or make sense to do that using mop
<Bike>
that sounds plausible i guess.
<pagnol>
when the program attempts to update a slot, then the ... metaclass? ... would look at the schema to find out if it's ok
<_death>
slot-value-using-class
<pagnol>
this way the actual code would be unencumbered by those tasks
<pagnol>
is this a method name?
<Bike>
here's a start: define some class and then do (describe (find-class your-class)) and get a look at things
<pagnol>
ok, thanks
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<makomo>
pagnol: what about the book The Art of the Metaobject Protocol (AMOP)? i didn't open the book yet, but it sounds like it might be useful?
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<Bike>
it's not heavy on examples.
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<pagnol>
makomo, I have a copy of the book and skimmed the first few chapters but I feel I would need to set some time aside specifically for studying the MOP to get anything out of it
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<fiveop>
Is there an idomatic name for the function that is similar to SOME, but checks elements of trees instead of sequences? Does Alexandria have such a function?
<makomo>
pagnol: thanks, i'm interested as well
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<pagnol>
makomo, do you already have a concrete use case you would like to apply it to?
<phoe>
fiveop: for a very consing solution, use FLATTEN on the treeOA
<phoe>
though it might not work on dotted lists.
<phoe>
asarch: it's pjb, not pbj. (:
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<makomo>
pagnol: oh, nope, but i want to learn more about it because (1) it's very interesting and (2) i've been doing some java/spring recently and am interested in the comparison between the two
<asarch>
D'oh! Sorry
<makomo>
pagnol: i.e. how the stuff that java/spring has/solves transfers over to lisp
<asarch>
My dislexic pen :-P
<fiveop>
phoe: that would work, if I thought the thing through properly. I do not only want to check the atoms, but the three itself and its subtrees as well.
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<phoe>
fiveop: ooh, i see. do you want some kind of tree traversal and apply the predicate to each tree node?
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<phoe>
I think nothing in the standard or in Alexandria is suited for that. Feel free to roll your own.
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<fiveop>
yes, tree traversel but with early exit (some :))
<fiveop>
(like some)
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<asarch>
Soupe à l'oignon :-)
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<Shinmera>
pagnol: I implement a metaclass that does strict type checking on slots for my chat protocol specification
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<Bike>
the monthly versus daily logs on clozure just break for no reasons sometime
<phoe>
Oh. Okay.
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<raynold>
Ahh it's a wonderful day
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<krwq>
hello, what is the best way to redirect multiple streams into one ideally without reading all of them entirely into memory? is there some good library for combining streams?
<Xach>
krwq: a concatenated-stream would be half the answer, then a loop of your own making to write the output.
<krwq>
Xach: that sounds good - thank you!
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<krwq>
Xach: this works for my case but in general do you know if there is any library which would conceptually as this? https://pastebin.com/aw4P1AqV
<Xach>
krwq: I don't know, sorry.
<krwq>
Xach: the problem with the concatenate-stream is that I have a function which compiles from stream and I'd like to provide it several files but I do not neccessarily want to open all files
<krwq>
what about some kind of memory stream?
<pillton>
Open all files simultaneously?
<krwq>
pillton: ideally one by one
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<krwq>
technically I can create temporary file or with-input-from-string and with-output-to-stream together to have memory stream
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<Xach>
krwq: you don't want to open all the files?
<krwq>
Xach: Unless I have to I don't
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<pillton>
Does the function that processes the input stream do something after reading all of the input?
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<krwq>
pillton: what do you mean?
<krwq>
pillton: it only returns value
<pillton>
Why can't you just call the function multiple times? Why do you have to concatenate the streams?
<krwq>
pillton: so specifically this is parenscript - I'd like to concatenate macros before the script I compile
<krwq>
so the output of that thing is js
<krwq>
as string
<krwq>
so macros get compiled to nothing
<krwq>
so technically I can't do that
<krwq>
but that's not the first time I'm fighting with streams - I'd like to learn some better way to handle them
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<pillton>
I'd say you need to come to terms with the fact that the standard defines no "pipe" stream.