<aeth>
Yeah, that's more elegant than redefining it to insert a print statement.
<aeth>
It's :: if anyone is following along at home
<aeth>
wait, it's neither
<aeth>
whoops, I wrote exapnd
<aeth>
The new anti-aliasing is terrible.
<pillton>
It should be exported. The expand-store function is part of the object protocol within SS's MOP.
<aeth>
Looks like the trace only shows up in the REPL when I do something like this: (let ((foo (let ((rand (random 1))) (if (zerop rand) 1f0 1)))) (foo foo foo))
<aeth>
It also shows up when I define any function
<aeth>
e.g. (defun bar () (foo 1f0 2f0)) or (defun baz () (let ((foo (let ((rand (random 1))) (if (zerop rand) 1f0 1)))) (foo foo foo)))
<pillton>
It all depends on when the implementation invokes compiler macros.
<aeth>
(oooh, I need to use (random 2)
<aeth>
This doesn't call the trace every time. (defun baz () (let ((foo (let ((rand (random 2))) (if (zerop rand) 1f0 1)))) (foo foo foo)))
<aeth>
I'm not sure if that's because it's really smart or if runtime dispatch uses something else
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<aeth>
(I mean, calling baz... defining baz will produce the trace)
<pillton>
Expand-store is invoked when the function is compiled to see if any compile time optimizations can be performed.
<aeth>
It still doesn't come up in SBCL
<aeth>
But they call the same function in the disassembly. In fact, if I disassemble a foo-fn and a foo-sf, it looks like they call the same function in the disassembly. At least, if that's what this means; "MOV EAX, #x2054DF78"
<pillton>
The function object bound to #'foo does not call funcall-store.
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<aeth>
Does this mean that when it's not inline SBCL always uses runtime dispatch to determine which foo to call, even when the types are known? e.g. (defun foo-sf () (foo 1f0 1f0)) (defun foo-fn () (foo 1 1))
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<aeth>
The same trace shows up in CCL
<aeth>
Interestingly, CCL gives a bogus warning when defining the functions themselves: In FOO-SF: In the call to FOO with arguments (1.0 1.0), 2 arguments were provided, but at most 0 are accepted by the current global definition of FOO
<pillton>
Yes. The standard specifies that compiler macros are not invoked when a function is declared not inline.
<aeth>
pillton: Does specialization-store have a way to inline the dispatch but not the function itself? Sometimes that might be the most performant option, if the function is very large but the type of the arguments in the calling function is known
<aeth>
e.g. matrix multiplication
<jmercouris>
jasom: I've found very extensive docs within the webkit source code
<jmercouris>
I wonder if JavaScriptCore ships with Webkit, or if it is a separate so file
<aeth>
pillton: I guess it's possible with a combination of named specializations and expand functions, where the :expand-function calls the named specialization?
<pillton>
aeth: Matrix multiplication is always part of a larger problem. If the larger problem wants to be efficient then it should declare the types.
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<aeth>
pillton: is it intentional that define-specialization cannot use :name and defspecialization can?
<aeth>
It looks like define-specialization doesn't support options, just the name
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<pillton>
Can you paste.
<aeth>
This is pointless compared to just inlining it, I was just combining the two things in the tutorial other than inline in one place
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<krwq>
hello, I'm using cl-dbi to fetch couple of million rows from the postgres db. Currently my sbcl's memory is being exhausted when doing that - on my side I'm not allocating it - I believe this is happening due to: https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-dbi/blob/master/src/dbd/postgres.lisp#L95 (reading whole db to a list) - does anyone know any better alternatives? should I switch to postmodern or are there any better alter
<krwq>
natives?
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<pillton>
Have you tried increasing the value given to sbcl --dynamic-space-size ?
<Oladon>
krwq: You might also try clsql
<krwq>
nope but I noticed that when I compile sbcl from sources and run gc in the loop it doesn't happen - the problem with newest sbcl is that some other libraries are not working correctly with it (I had problems with cepl and log4cl)
<krwq>
will try passing that
<krwq>
I feel like this is delaying the problem in time though...
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<sigjuice>
is there a utility that will fetch a copy of the upstream version of a quicklisp release?
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<jmercouris>
sigjuice: Git :D
<jmercouris>
sigjuice: I believe it was yourself that sent me the link to the QL repo/project mapping
<jmercouris>
conceivably it should be possible to write such a utility, could be pretty useful
<jmercouris>
if you want to work on such a tool I can help
<sigjuice>
jmercouris thanks for your offer! I figured I can't be the first person with such a wish, so I asked here.
<jmercouris>
I've never heard of such a tool, then again, I haven't heard of a lot of stuff :D best wait until Xach is online before departing on this journey
<jmercouris>
just in case
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<sigjuice>
so far I have been looking at the quicklisp-projects repo and manually fetching copies to my quicklisp/local-projects
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<jmercouris>
yeah, we could very easily automate it though I think, I have a feeling there is someway to do it already via quicklisp though, mayb
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<aeth>
(2) It brings up an interesting idea of going WASM->Lisp
<Zhivago>
Why WASM->Lisp?
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<aeth>
Everything is going to eventually compile to WASM one day.
<aeth>
Now all of those things run on Mezzano too with a portable WASM->Lisp
<Zhivago>
Sure, so why wouldn't you be looking at Lisp->WASM?
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<aeth>
That's going to happen for sure. ABCL might work with JVM -> WASM and Clasp might work with LLVM -> WASM without much extra effort.
<aeth>
(They probably don't work yet, though.)
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<jmercouris>
aeth: you'll still probably want some layer in between to work with the dom and stuff like that though, you'll need to extend the language in some meaningful way
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<jmercouris>
that would be a good lib projec
<jmercouris>
wasm is still so young though
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<dmiles>
admittedly aeth's idea is appealing to have a WASM->Lisp
<dmiles>
are there x86 emulators in lisp presently?
<rme>
I have worked with a client who uses CL to model x86 cpus. But not in the sense of "run Windows on this Lisp-emulated x86".
<dmiles>
yeah actually as i think harder (that is what i meant "run Windows on this Lisp-emulated x86") it would be an entire system like VM i would be thinking of
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<dmiles>
the benefits would be abstractions available on the level of the machine instance i suppose
<dmiles>
" system like VM " " system like VMWare"
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<eviltofu>
Hello again! In (defmethod add-list-of-symbols-to-object ((alist cons))) where I add a list of symbols to something, is there a way to specify that the list has to be symbols only or should the code not care?
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<pillton>
No. Methods can only dispatch on classes and there is no class representing a list of symbols.
<eviltofu>
ok
<eviltofu>
so the (alist cons) doesn't actually work, I can just remove it
<pillton>
It should work since cons is a system class.
<jackdaniel>
it uses mop to give you more flexibility on method dispatch
<eviltofu>
So I can actually provide two methods where one is a list of symbols and one where the parameter is a symbol.
<pillton>
There is also specialization-store which allows you to dispatch on type.
<eviltofu>
okies, will look into these.
* pillton
shamelessly advertises himself.
<jackdaniel>
oh, its yourse :)
<jackdaniel>
yours*
<pillton>
I didn't know about filtered functions.
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<hibikelel>
Hello
<hibikelel>
Wondering if there's somebody up this late who can help me with a bit of a quandry
<hibikelel>
I'm a novice programmer, and even that's stretching it, I've got a very shallow knowledge of a wide number of languages but couldn't code my way out of a paper bag when you get down to it
<hibikelel>
Out of all the languages I've messed around with Lisp seems to be the only language/family I can see myself doing any long-term work in, at least for fun
<hibikelel>
Dedided I'd work on a much larger project, really test my skills, I've never done anything with 3d graphics before so I figured I'd tinker around, trouble is there doesn't seem to be any libraries written, in racket anyway, for any openGL implementation after 1.5 which is pretty out of date at this point
<hibikelel>
Should I just switch to another language or might it be worth writing some wrapper functions for a C graphics lib
<|3b|>
#scheme or #racket might know more about scheme/racket bindings, this channel is mostly about common lisp, for which there is cl-opengl
<JuanDaugherty>
RECOMMEND: reevaluate your judgement on the graphics library, do more research and go with best you can find in time you have
<hibikelel>
You know I've been bouncing between implementations for a while and I'm not against using CL, I guess I'll give that a shot
<JuanDaugherty>
and obviously continue with lisp, but there is a cl vs scheme decision to make
<hibikelel>
Worked through most of SICP, read a bunch of Scheme books, Little Schemer, then Realm of Racket, about halfway through HTDP
<JuanDaugherty>
how long since you wrote your first program?
<hibikelel>
Never done any 'serious' work however, and while it's a true statement that I have no idea what the fcuk I'm doing I feel I know enough to figure it out
<JuanDaugherty>
programming and programming for a living are two quite different things
<hibikelel>
Let's see... I must have written my first real python program in 2014 but I didn't keep up with it, I did about jack shit until I wanna say three months ago
<hibikelel>
Always felt like it was beyond me
<eviltofu>
If I want a function that adds a connection from one node to another (add-connection node1 node2) but I want the option of a bidirectional connection and want a (add-connection node1 node2 :bidirectional), how should this be implemented? And is this a valid lisp way of doing this?
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<hibikelel>
Built up the vocabulary, finally beat it into my skull what exactly constitutes a class (no I didn't, every language changes it around) and I have trouble staying on one language when I get bored, I've got knowledge as broad as a gorge, deep as a puddle
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<eviltofu>
I use (defun add-connection (n1 n2 &rest keywords) ... ) ?
<hibikelel>
I've probably made it through the first half of close to a dozen different books on nearly as many languages, and god knows how many tutorials
<JuanDaugherty>
in computer programming, unlike comparable professions, there's a forced dilletantism that comes from the impact of its history and role in the capital system
<|3b|>
EvilTofu: usually you would have (add-connection node1 node2 :bidirectional t), and use &key
<JuanDaugherty>
so even before the decisions mentioned there seems to be one of seriousness
<eviltofu>
okies
<eviltofu>
so this should be :bidirectional nil if I want it not to be the default?
<hibikelel>
I don't intend to become some master-programmer who reinvents everything about modern society, nice as that would be, when you get down to it I just want to hack around with pretty pictures
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<|3b|>
EvilTofu: not sure what you mean
<hibikelel>
Have a neat idea for a simple 3rd person shooter, don't even intend to sell it, just show off to some friends, I'd be surprised if whatever I come up with would be considered passable on the ps1
<eviltofu>
The default is not bidirectional but one way.
<eviltofu>
oh I see
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<JuanDaugherty>
hibikelel, it is probably inappropriate for you to try to do a lisp app for ps1
<eviltofu>
<|3b|> I see
<|3b|>
(add-connection node1 node2) would get default, which is specified in the DEFUN
<|3b|>
&key bidirectional, or &key (bidirectional nil) would specify NIL as default
<hibikelel>
Not what I meant, I was trying to say that the level of quality I'm shooting for here wouldn't have made a passable game on that platform, not that I'm actually intending to write a game for the ps1
<hibikelel>
That said interestingly enough Crash Bandicoot was written in a proprietary lisp dialect called GOOL
<|3b|>
you could also pass :bidirectional nil if you wanted to be explicit at the call site (or if you wanted to pass it on from another variable or similar)
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<JuanDaugherty>
i still am unable to determine the nature of the specific paedagogical emergency
<|3b|>
there is also the option when writing the defun to determine if :bidirectional was specified at all when you want more complicated defaulting behavior, but usually you don't need that
<hibikelel>
I was just having trouble finding a 3d graphics library for racket, folks in here reccomended cl
<JuanDaugherty>
hibikelel, do you mean the folks in #racket/#scheme recommended cl?
<|3b|>
hibikelel: note that 'here' is a bit biased, other channels might have other biases and thus other suggestions :)
<hibikelel>
folks in this channel reccomended cl, I connected to #lisp thinking it was a general lisp chanel, unaware there was chanels for specifict dialects
<hibikelel>
yeah I'm aware
<JuanDaugherty>
well this is a CL channel
<hibikelel>
I'll be popping over to #scheme and #racket momentarily
<hibikelel>
I know that, now
<|3b|>
you might also try #lispgames (not CL specific, but mostly CL)
<hibikelel>
That's a good suggestion
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<JuanDaugherty>
fwiw, i move freely across lang cultures but for you that's probably inappropriate. I wrote my first program in 1974, went to college for it, had a long career, etc
<hibikelel>
awesome, as much as I'd like to have a career in programming one day I'm not sure that I'm cut out for it, I'd prefer to keep it as a neat hobby rather than anything I do too seriously. No offense to those who do so for a living but I like the unconstrained nature of a blank editor, allowing me to work on/tinker with whatever I feel like, having to maintain someone else's software as product seems like
<hibikelel>
it'd kind of suck the fun out.
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<JuanDaugherty>
that is the common reaction to doing it under the capital system, the major alternative is academic/scientific computing
<JuanDaugherty>
and the dilletantism you seem to be headed for was once common, still is a thing i think
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<JuanDaugherty>
and extremely common pattern was for people to get sucked in from other disciplines, especially technical ones and then burn out on the noxious character of the industry
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<hibikelel>
I've always loved computing, but I'm more of a technician than a programmer, ressurected the laptop I'm typing this on from a chinese electronics-scrapper, had almost no parts, not even a display, ordered all of that and assembled the machine, turns out the backlight-fuse was blown, so I did my first soldering job on this thing, pretty proud of it in all honesty
<JuanDaugherty>
s/dilletante/hobbyist/
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<hibikelel>
I mean what can be said for the commercialization of the technical sector, the advent of the microprocessor didn't exactly change everything about everything overnight, but it certainly made a massive impact once consumer-grade computers were in the hands of the masses, from there the internet supercharged things
<hibikelel>
It was an inevitability
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<JuanDaugherty>
'the commercialization of the technical sector' may make sense in china or russia, but the technical sector originated in and never left the technical sector
<JuanDaugherty>
in the non socialist world
<JuanDaugherty>
never left the circuit of capital production
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<hibikelel>
Perhaps that was a poor turn of phrase, I was attempting to articulate the transition of general computing from the past-time of academics and amateur programmers through the mid-sixties into the late-seventies, into what we wolud consider the modern information economy. Time was unless you were manufacturing hardware there was almost no money to be made in computing outside of supporting a corporate
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<hibikelel>
mainframe
<JuanDaugherty>
yeah that's just false
<JuanDaugherty>
computing has always had a military/commercial grounding
<JuanDaugherty>
even mathematics itself arose in the practical activities of accounting, surveying, etc
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<JuanDaugherty>
probably the height of what you are talking about was in the late 70s and early 80s, a fairly brief time, less than a decade
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<JuanDaugherty>
anyway, as far as your original paedogogical emergency, i'd give portacle a try, use the libs it provides
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<fe[nl]ix>
'morning beach
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<beach>
The ELS program committee is taking shape.
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<hajovonta>
hi beach!
<beach>
hajovonta: Are you planning to go to ELS this year?
<EvilTofu>
What is ELS?
<hajovonta>
I'm planning it every year, but family issues usually hold me back
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<jackdaniel>
EvilTofu: European Lisp Symposium
<hajovonta>
also, it's a lot of money just to travel and stay, and in the past few years it was nearly impossible to embark on the journey
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<hajovonta>
where will it take place this year?
<beach>
Marbella
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<namra>
greetings
<namra>
i'm pretty new to lisp and trying to read from a stream (that is returned instead of a string) as the response body of a get request using dexador
<namra>
thought that actually doesn't read anything from the stream, and i just can't figure out why
<namra>
(read-line response) works fine though
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<pillton>
aeth: That bug is now fixed in master.
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<FareTower>
namra, did something else read everything from the stream?
<FareTower>
is it a binary stream or a character stream?
<namra>
it's a BABEL:UNICODE-CHAR stream
<namra>
i don't know if some of the dexador code read from the stream prior, which actually doesn't seem reasonable because it wouldn't make sense to return the stream than. though any code i wrote doesn't read from it prior to that.
<namra>
i also tried it with a binary stream
<FareTower>
is that an alias for character, on sbcl?
<namra>
sorry FareTower but i don't know
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<namra>
hm babel is a CL charset encoding/decoding library
<FareTower>
I know of babel. If you M-. on BABEL:UNICODE-CHAR it should take you to the definition.
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<namra>
yep it's an alias for character
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<FareTower>
ok, so can you read-line from that stream?
<namra>
yes
<FareTower>
but read-sequence fails to read even one character?
<namra>
that is correct
<FareTower>
or is your sequence of effective size 0?
<namra>
nope i set it to 1024
<FareTower>
:fill-pointer 0
<namra>
(make-array 1024 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t :element-type (stream-element-type response))
<FareTower>
:fill-pointer 0
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<FareTower>
maybe instead you should save the value given by read-sequence, and use it to set fill-pointer, or something
<namra>
the hyperspec states that read-sequence returns the position into the sequence (basically how many chars in this case have been read), but it always returns 0
<FareTower>
because you set fill-pointer to 0
<FareTower>
set the fill-pointer to 1024
<FareTower>
read-sequence is not magic
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<FareTower>
it's not call read-sequence-extend
<FareTower>
(by anology with vector-push-extend)
<namra>
oh i see
<namra>
thank you very much
<FareTower>
now you're it
<namra>
i thought read-sequence is advancing the fill-pointer
<FareTower>
to help the next newbie
<FareTower>
so did i, probably, once long time ago
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<FareTower>
and yes, if alexandria doesn't have a read-sequence-extend function, maybe you can contribute it. Or to another library
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<Shinmera>
Doesn't uiop have a thing to read a stream to a sequence?
<FareTower>
read-file-string you mean?
<namra>
alexandria does have this -> READ-STREAM-CONTENT-INTO-STRING
<FareTower>
yes, it does, but this gentleman is reading from a stream. Maybe he wants slurp-stream-string.
<shrdlu68>
There doesn't seem to be a "maxcol" print arg to the ~D format directive. How does one limit the maximum width?
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<namra>
shrdlu68: maybe you can achieve that with a conditional format directive, where the first argument checks if the number is to large
<jmercouris>
documentation sounds closer to what you're looking for
<malice>
you can also inspect
<malice>
that won't show help, but you can look at some objects
<jmercouris>
So an example might be something like (documentation *variable-name* 'variable)
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<papachan>
there is no "sdraw" package at quicklisp?
<Xach>
No
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<jmercouris>
Xach: Is there a way to fetch the latest upstream version of a project available in quicklisp?
<Xach>
jmercouris: not directly, but all upstream sources are tracked in the quicklisp-projects github repo
<jmercouris>
Ok, just wanted to confirm that, thinking about writing a tool
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<jmercouris>
sigjuice: Confirmation at this point in time
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<Xach>
jmercouris: i do intend to ship that data with quicklisp dists soon
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<jmercouris>
Xach: I remember you told me some time ago, but let's say you have something installed via quicklisp, and something in your local-projects dir, how does ql decide which to load?
<jmercouris>
Ok good, that should make this tool work then
<Xach>
as well as any other system visible through asdf's registry system
<Xach>
quicklisp-provided projects are the last resort
<jmercouris>
i guess that makes sense, becaause the user would have to manually do that meaning that is likely their intent
<papachan>
is this correct? (not (append '() '()))
<papachan>
its en empty list
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<jmercouris>
If you append an emtpy list to an empty list, I expect you'd get an empty list
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<papachan>
ah ok i found something better so: (find-if #'identity (append '() '()))
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<jmercouris>
papachan: What do you mean better? if we don't know what the program is supposed to do, what is better or worse? You need to provide some context
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<phoe>
papachan: your program is equivalent to
<phoe>
'()
<Shinmera>
Which is also the same as ()
<warweasle>
Which is the name as nil.
<Shinmera>
And the same as an infinity of other forms
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<phoe>
we need to hold a contest
<phoe>
the most bizarre and unexpected way of writing a form that evaluates to NIL
<phoe>
...possibly without side effects
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<rme>
(setq)
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<phoe>
rme: unexpectedly satisfying
<Xach>
rme: Nice! Wow!
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<Xach>
That is going to save me so much time in macros! Maybe!
<phoe>
Xach: how?
<rme>
That's one of my favorites.
<Xach>
phoe: no need to check if i have a non-nil number of things to setf
<Xach>
`(setf ,@assignments) where assignments might be empty just works
<phoe>
oh wait
<phoe>
(setf) works as well
<Xach>
This is a little tongue in cheek. Macros are the only reason I can imagine for allowing an empty setq/setf
<phoe>
holy cow, niiiiice
<Xach>
It wouldn't affect me personally in any way I can think of.
<Xach>
Wow, interesting that lemonodor's college page is still up.
<phoe>
kolb: you mean backquote?
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<phoe>
homoiconicity?
<kolb>
phoe: no I mean the fact that nil is a boolean, a symbol, a list, the "null value", things like (setq) work, ...
<kolb>
see my link
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<kolb>
I guess its a design principle
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<phoe>
"CDR didn't think that NIL was much fun"
<phoe>
oh, he used Scheme. poor man
<kolb>
exactly
<Xach>
kolb: I think so
<Xach>
kolb: there's a willingness to be ugly to work
<_death>
pragmatism
<phoe>
^
<kolb>
I think doug hoyte had a term in LoL
<kolb>
I think pragmatism is way too generic and doesn’t describe the thing
<warweasle>
I would like scheme if it had defmacro and CLOS.
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<kolb>
doug hoyte called it "dualisms" IIRC
<warweasle>
Also, I'm not a huge fan of #t, #f, (), all being different things.
<phoe>
warweasle: I actually like #t and #f being different things
<warweasle>
Well, #t should be (not #f)
<kolb>
and doug claimed that these dualisms relate directly to expressiveness
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<phoe>
makes for useful stuff, like, for example, boolean logic
<warweasle>
phoe: I can understand the argument, so that's why it's not a deal breaker.
<_death>
equivocation
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<kolb>
_death: that’s a fancy word for ambiguous ;-P
<shka>
good evening
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<_death>
kolb: a term is ambiguous, the use of ambiguity is equivocation
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<shka>
scheme is perfect education medium
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<shka>
and should be recognized as such
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<rme>
In a way, I kind of like CL's weird things. It's like the people of Amsterdam who eat herring from the street vendors: it's weird to outsiders, but the locals like it.
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<rme>
some of the locals, anyway
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<FareTower>
rme: I love CL, but I recognize it and its community are dysfunctional in many ways
<FareTower>
autistic, neophobic, quirky
<FareTower>
with lots of baggage
<FareTower>
overall very bad at collaboration
<FareTower>
maybe attracted to lisp precisely because it can do so much with so little collaboration
<warweasle>
FareTower: I would like to rename a few things. Outside of that, I love CL.
<FareTower>
warweasle, renaming for yourself is the easiest of things
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<warweasle>
FareTower: I mean things like "true" and "false". print and such. People expect it.
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<FareTower>
warweasle, can still do
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<FareTower>
though for hacking reader and printer... soon you'll have a lisp-in-cl
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<rme>
I'm trying to look in the mirror to see if I'm autistic, neophobic, and quirky. Maybe I'm a little neophobic, but that's partly because change is inevitable but progress is not.
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<FareTower>
CLers managed to avoid a lot of change.
<FareTower>
for better and for worse
<FareTower>
lispers like to boast about all the innovation that lisp was about, but do precious little innovation these days
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<makomo>
hearing that sort of stuff makes me a bit sad :^(
<makomo>
and reminds me of that "bipolar disorder lisper" essay
<_death>
makomo: you can safely disregard them
<makomo>
i always wonder whether such a thing could be true. i mean, it's not like any such essays have any data to back up their claims
<FareTower>
lispers also resist the most justified of changes
<warweasle>
FareTower: Well, we just add changes on top of the others. And we make a mud-ball.
<phoe>
isn't lisp a mudball?
<FareTower>
there was a lisp project called mudballs... it died
<FareTower>
a replacement for asdf 1 and 2.
<rme>
I don't like those "lispers are bipolar" or " lispers have asperger's" essays and talks. They are not true and not helpful.
<makomo>
yeah, i think so too
<FareTower>
"know thyself"
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<tomlukeywood>
what is the difference between map and mapcar?
<_death>
apply the socratic dictum to thyself, as well
<loli>
mapcar is for lists only
<Xach>
tomlukeywood: map is more generic.
<warweasle>
rme: I have both. :(
<loli>
map is more general and you can supply the final form
<loli>
has anyone here used LiL (lisp interface library)?
<tomlukeywood>
so you can use map on strings to go through each character etc?
<loli>
yes
<Xach>
tomlukeywood: yes
<tomlukeywood>
ty
<phoe>
to me, Lisp doesn't change, Lisp evolves
<phoe>
and evolution likes to take its time and mistakes
<loli>
how bad of an idea is it to pass a dynamic variable down to do method/function dispatch? Is there another method that will allow me to change what a function means after the fact?
<Xach>
loli: what kind of change did you have in mind?
<Xach>
loli: using special variables for that is pretty common, e.g. *print-case* changes behavior
<loli>
I'm using dynamic variables to be <>, bar, and mempty ie simulating the monoid for my finger tree
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<FareTower>
loli: "this is not my final form!"
<loli>
FareTower: ???
<FareTower>
phoe: does Lisp evolve much, these days?
<FareTower>
as the joke goes, it's just as dead as ever, no more, no less
<loli>
I'm using a secondary struct for users to make their own finger tree, the issue is that with the lazy eval,I have to overload every function for the correct values to be gotten
<jmercouris>
rme: +1 those essays are bullshit, most likely not even written by lisp developers
<loli>
I have to overload my generated getters which is rather annoying
<FareTower>
phoe: weren't you re-digitizing a new CLHS rival from the dpANS spec?
<phoe>
FareTower: I was, and am. Currently on hiatus because of real life taking up most of my real life CPU time.
<jmercouris>
FareTower: It's in progress, when it is done, it will be done (temporarily on hold)
<phoe>
FareTower: it evolves on its own pace. It's a slow pace, but then again, things are not done unless someone does them, and Lisp does not have many* people who have the will, energy and time to do them.
<phoe>
*relatively, compared to some other programming languages
<FareTower>
phoe: I can sympathize with that.
<FareTower>
phoe: maybe you can find a way to crowdsource this effort?
<FareTower>
a lot of CL hackers could each put 2 days proof-reading / annotating / whatever a small part of the the CLHS
<phoe>
FareTower: I was complaining about exactly this thing a day ago perhaps, you can search the #lisp logs.
<FareTower>
or however you call this successor
<phoe>
Yes, I terribly need to crowdsource that.
<phoe>
And I'll do this as soon as I deal with my real life, which might take me two months.
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<FareTower>
I've met people who explained that they learned PHP because it had a great community and great documentation. These can do wonders even for a shitty language.
<phoe>
But then, heh, I've been neglecting my RL for way too long.
<phoe>
(incf FareTower)
<FareTower>
lowering the barrier to entry
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<phoe>
yes, very much.
<FareTower>
The greatest lowering of barrier to entry in the CL world was probably Quicklisp
<phoe>
the CL cookbook has a lot of fresh and awesome content, when it comes to *new* documentation
<phoe>
Its new chapters have been posted on /r/lisp for a longer while now
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<makomo>
FareTower: i saw that post of yours where you mentioned that (a mailing list, i forgot which one)
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<makomo>
i wonder if that's real or just anecdotal evidence
<makomo>
god damn it, if only we had actual, proper statistical data for this kind of stuff
<makomo>
it's always just speculation/stories
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<FareTower>
makomo, mentioned what?
<makomo>
the PHP thing
<FareTower>
oh
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<phoe>
FareTower: I really want to finish my Lisp documentation project and make it go live despite all the delays, especially since "every year there's a new kid in the block who wants to curate CL libraries. So far, Xach is an exception in actually doing it and sticking to it year after year."
<phoe>
which is pretty true, and has both upsides and downsides.
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* phoe
brb for RL
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* phoe
back
<phoe>
upsides: there's obviously energy and will to be spent, because if people have the energy to constructively complain, then they have the energy to make things better
<phoe>
downsides: it's trivial to let people down in this scenario since if there's nothing they can attach their frustrations and wishes for a better state of things to, they'll just leave
<phoe>
but heh, this thing has been discussed 9001 times before, half of which happened on #lisp
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<FareTower>
phoe: I spent all my non-mercenary CL energy. But I want to leave the place in a better state than I found it, so I'm probably gonna stick until ASDF 3.3.2 is released that fixes the regressions with 3.3.1
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<phoe>
FareTower: no doubt you spent it, you did a ton of work related to ASDF.
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<FareTower>
most people don't seem to notice... hard to tell whether it's success (seamless experience) or failure (no one cares)
<phoe>
I'll tell you a small tale that comes from my own ignorance and experience.
<phoe>
I never realized how important it is to value people's work until I finally noticed how God damn hard, annoying and exhausting it is to ship working, polished software, as compared to happy hacking.
<phoe>
Which came with some experience. I had to learn this, valuing people's work, and I had to learn it by hours of bugfixing, coding, listening to people's requests, complaints, whines, praises and weird stuff I'd rather not mention here.
<dlowe>
yeah, shipping is way harder than many think.
<phoe>
so, huh, it might sound pretty weird, but I stopped really expecting "normal bread-eaters" to notice how much work it takes to deliver something that works as expected.
<phoe>
they usually go "ooooh, shinyyy, it makes vrroooom, vrrrooooom soundssss :o"
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<phoe>
well, a part of my work is that it makes vroom vrrrroooooom sounds. but also that it doesn't explode in all the various configurations for this person, other people, or other circumstances.
<phoe>
this, and also how much time it takes to bugfix stuff as compared to implementing new features. this ratio only goes higher and higher over time, too.
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<phoe>
so it's pretty damn weird, but, "most people don't seem to notice... hard to tell whether it's success (seamless experience) or failure (no one cares)" - I'd agree with most of it except the last part
<phoe>
people tend to care, they just rarely have any idea of how the whole process looks like
<phoe>
even if they understand basic programming, they think that software developers are doing programming, where they are actually doing software development
<phoe>
and sometimes I wish software development included programming
<phoe>
</rant>
<phoe>
okay, more RL stuff now
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<jmercouris>
phoe: I think unless a developer has released a product themselves, they do not know this, as part of a company you are shielded from this by sales people, and other customer facing individuals (support etc)
<jmercouris>
phoe: That is also why I am hesitant to call myself a programmer, I don't merely program, that is just one step
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<phoe>
jmercouris: by my personal nomenclature, I think it's fine to call yourself a programmer right now. I make a distinction between programming and software development.
<phoe>
it's like, similar kind of difference like between having sex and being a parent inside a healthy family.
<jmercouris>
This is of course fine if you are *just* a programmer, but if you are developing software, then you are a software developer
<phoe>
like, the former is still a part of the latter, but you also get a ton of other work that is semi- and unrelated to programming.
<jmercouris>
Would a laywer call themselves a paper reader?
<jmercouris>
most of the time they are reading papers, no?
<phoe>
and one day you can just wake up and there's shit in the middle of the carpet. nobody knows how it happened, nobody knows when it happened, there's just blank stares and avoidant gazes, and all you know is that it's your responsibility to clean it up before guests arrive at eleven o'clock.
<phoe>
gah, I just realized it's a #lispcafe discussion.
<jmercouris>
Ok, thanks for the resources, time to try to learn it properly
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<aeth>
yacc uses yet another BNF, or at least really close to it
<aeth>
Wikipedia says "a notation similar to Backus–Naur Form (BNF)"
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<aeth>
(really, they missed an opportunity to literally call it "yet another BNF" because the program's "yet another compiler-compiler")
<beach>
I apologize to John Backus for spelling his name like the Roman version of Dionysus.
<jmercouris>
He won't be reading this log I think :D
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<beach>
Whew!
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<FareTower>
beach: he might be flattered
<rumbler31>
"thats funny, I was having a glass of wine when I thought this up"
<jmercouris>
I was saying because he is not alive anymore
<jmercouris>
Anyways, I have the following cffi binding I am trying to get to work, can someone please take a look and see if I made a mistake? It is very short, just 3 forms: https://gist.github.com/acb34aef9e4d784933fe5c593001e3dd
<jmercouris>
I've included the original C documentation at the top
<rme>
I only know one person who drinks wine while programming. I don't know how he does it.
<rumbler31>
Thats easy! Just one glass at a time
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<FareTower>
rme: you make me thirsty!
<FareTower>
rme: I hope he drinks *red* wine.
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<rme>
of course he does
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<FareTower>
I like to do that, too, but I hate to drink alone at which point I drink too slow for the wine bottle not to get bad before I finish it.
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<throwprans|prans>
Why do I need VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND and couldn't just VECTOR-PUSH deal with it?