<ebrasca>
pillton: I try to implement open-using-host.
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<pillton>
I don't understand why your question is related to implementing open-using-host.
<pillton>
(subtypep 'stream 'atom) => T
<drmeister>
Does (unread nil <stream>) make any sense?
<drmeister>
I realize that nil is not a character - but I have some code (not my own) that is invoking unread with nil.
<pillton>
unread-char?
<ebrasca>
I need streams to make open-using-host and I don't understand how to make streams.
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<jasom>
ebrasca: every object in lisp is either a cons or an atom. The type atom is literally the same as the type (not atom)
<jasom>
ebrasca: it's a bit silly that vectors and hash-tables are atoms, but the atom/cons distinction predates lisps having those
<jasom>
Correction: *The type atom is literally the same as the type (not cons)
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<jmercouris>
good morning
<beach>
jmercouris: What kind of help are you offering for ELS papers?
<beach>
I usually submit early versions here for people to comment on.
<jmercouris>
I'm no expert, so I can do just proofreading/sanity type checks
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<jmercouris>
maybe some research, demos, diagrams
<beach>
OK, good.
<beach>
Coming soon. Not quite yet, though.
<jmercouris>
cool! I look forward to it
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<jmercouris>
anyone know a cl lib that provides functionality similar to: https://www.passwordstore.org or perhaps a wrapper for it?
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<bms_>
Good morning!
<bms_>
I'll be going to bed soon.
<madpengu>
bms_: It is always morning.
<madpengu>
jmercouris: That is a stupid simple wrapper around gpg. You could probably write in cl in 2 lines of code ;)
<bms_>
I guess so.
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<jmercouris>
madpengu: I don't know about 2 lines of code...
<jmercouris>
I'm hesitant to recreate it in CL because I think there are some users of pass already, and I'd like to integrate with their workflow rather than break it
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<madpengu>
jmercouris: I use pass all day erry day. And considering that it is just a bash script, I am not sure how you can find a cl library.
<jmercouris>
it was worth an ask
<madpengu>
It is 700 lines of bash, so about 70 lisp.
<madpengu>
:P
<jmercouris>
maybe I'll end up recreating it in CL then
<madpengu>
That is for sure.
<jmercouris>
the hard part will be understanding the bash
<jmercouris>
what a terrible language
<madpengu>
you know it
<madpengu>
it is basically a terrible algol
<jmercouris>
it's basically javascript
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<madpengu>
JavaScript is far better than bash.
<madpengu>
And JavaScript is not a great language.
<beach>
jmercouris: I consider it progress whenever some existing software can be rewritten in pure Common Lisp, or at least as pure as possible, depending on the task at hand. It makes the software safer and easier to maintain for us.
<jmercouris>
yeah, this is definitely true, though I'd still have to rely on GPG
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<jmercouris>
maybe it's not necessary to bring in GPG at all
<jmercouris>
but you'd still probably want interop with Pass
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<beach>
jmercouris: There have been some issues with Ironclad. I suggest you ask Bike and drmeister.
<jmercouris>
beach: Ok, I'll ask tomorrow morning when they'll probably be online
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<jmercouris>
thanks for the heads up
<beach>
Sure.
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<raynold>
ahh it's a wonderful day
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<beach>
Hmm, it might be time to extract the SICL reader into a separate repository.
<beach>
I have almost all the customization code in place. I think only what backquote returns need to be customized.
<beach>
And for the CST reader, I need to make the source information possible to customize.
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<beach>
Extracting it would be the good opportunity to make sure it is truly implementation independent, and also the opportunity to document it properly.
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<beach>
... and to write more tests.
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<beach>
Oh, wait. The readtable protocol must first be in place.
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<zhoujingrui>
hi
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<beach>
Hello zhoujingrui.
<beach>
zhoujingrui: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<zhoujingrui>
yeah
<zhoujingrui>
i am new
<beach>
OK, welcome then.
<zhoujingrui>
thanks
<beach>
What brings you to #lisp?
<zhoujingrui>
i want to learn lisp programming'
<beach>
Sounds good.
<zhoujingrui>
so what lisp do you use
<beach>
Well, #lisp is dedicated to the Common Lisp dialect of Lisp.
<beach>
But there are several implementations of it.
<beach>
The most popular one is probably SBCL. But CCL and ECL are common as well.
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<beach>
The fact that Common Lisp has several implementations can be confusing to "modern" programmers who are used to single-implementation languages, where the language and the implementation evolve together.
<beach>
But having a fixed standard like Common Lisp does, and having several possible implementations of that standard to choose from is actually a good thing.
<beach>
A commercial software project that chooses a single-implementation language is actually taking a great risk.
<zhoujingrui>
M-x package-install RET slime RET
<zhoujingrui>
what is this mean
<zhoujingrui>
RET
<beach>
It's the RETURN key on your keyboard.
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<beach>
I usually prefer to install SLIME using Quicklisp.
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<zhoujingrui>
ok
<beach>
If you want an easy start, you might want to try Portacle.
<dmiles>
zhoujingrui: paste an entire function to pastebin, RET is used in a certain dialect of lisp that i am very familiar with
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<dmiles>
oh sorry RET its not a operator? but some package?
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<beach>
dmiles: RET has nothing to do with Lisp. It is the RETURN key on the keyboard.
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<dmiles>
hah i see now, i thought the refernce to the keyboard was a joke.. but now i see this is instructions
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<ebrasca>
Goodmorning
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<beach>
Hello ebrasca.
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<ebrasca>
I am integrating my fat32 to mezzano. ( like function open )
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<ebrasca>
beach: how are you?
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<beach>
ebrasca: I am fine thank you. I am working on one the ELS submissions for this year. What about yourself?
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<ebrasca>
beach: I am fine , I have good progress with my integration.
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<beach>
Great!
<ebrasca>
Is hard to make ELS submissions?
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<beach>
No. It's a job like any others.
<beach>
You get better with experience.
<beach>
[usually]
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<ebrasca>
How is to go to ELS?
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<beach>
Quite nice. There are usually almost 100 participants, and many of the same people come back every year, so it is good to see them again, and discuss what they are doing. Many people here on #lisp are regular participants.
<hajovonta>
hi all
<beach>
Hello hajovonta.
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<hajovonta>
today morning I have this error message when starting SLIME: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid XXXX: can't find core file at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core
<beach>
ebrasca: The thing to know about academic conferences is that the presentations are nice, but secondary. The primary interest is to meet the other participants and discuss with them face to face.
<beach>
hajovonta: Maybe you need to set SBCL_HOME.
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<ebrasca>
beach: I like to go , but I am bad moving 1 site to other.
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<hajovonta>
beach: in .emacs ?
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<beach>
hajovonta: No, it's a Unix shell variable.
<beach>
hajovonta: Maybe in the .bashrc or something. I am not an expert.
<beach>
I usually install SBCL in /usr/local, so I don't have that problem.
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<beach>
ebrasca: What do you mean? Do you have mobility problems?
<hajovonta>
it was more than a year when I installed sbcl, but as I remember, I couldn't write to that directory
<|3b|>
hajovonta: have you reinstalled sbcl since then, or made any major changes to OS install?
<hajovonta>
thanks. I forward it to her :)
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<ebrasca>
beach: How much money I need to have?
<beach>
Not much beyond transportation, room and ELS fee.
<beach>
Lunch is typically included, and typically also the conference dinner.
<hajovonta>
|3b|: I don't think so. but the problem is only present when I start via M-x slime. If I open a terminal then I can start SBCL. I have a script that I use to set up an load certain lisp files into the image at start (with sbcl --load) and then load SLIME's swank-loader and connect to it in a separate step
<hajovonta>
and it works okay
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<beach>
hajovonta: Does your .emacs contain an explicit reference to the .core file?
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<ebrasca>
beach: google say only for 1 flights is PLN979
<hajovonta>
beach: no it doesn't
<beach>
ebrasca: The fee is very small, so your cost is going to be dominated by transportation.
<hajovonta>
then fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 8997(tid 140737353733888):
<hajovonta>
can't find core file at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core
<|3b|>
nothing in between?
<hajovonta>
nothing else
<hajovonta>
an empty line
<phoe>
hajovonta: how did you install sbcl?
<hajovonta>
compiled from source
<phoe>
M-x ielm, tell me what is the value of inferior-lisp-program
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<hajovonta>
"~/sbcl/bin/sbcl"
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<phoe>
is your core file present at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core ?
<hajovonta>
yes
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<hajovonta>
it's there
<|3b|>
in shell, what is printed by which sbcl
<hajovonta>
and I can start sbcl from the terminal
<hajovonta>
but not via M-x slime
<hajovonta>
This is SBCL 1.3.14, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp.
<hajovonta>
and other license stuff
<phoe>
hajovonta: what is printed by `which sbcl` in shell?
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<hajovonta>
~/sbcl/bin/sbcl
<|3b|>
is slime-lisp-implementations set in emacs?
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<hajovonta>
|3b|: it's nil
<|3b|>
~/sbcl/bin/sbcl is an executable and not a script?
<phoe>
`file ~/sbcl/bin/sbcl`
<hajovonta>
~/sbcl/bin/sbcl: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped
<phoe>
hajovonta: try replacing ~ with an expanded path to your homedir, in the inferior-lisp-program elisp variable.
<hajovonta>
it's actually expanded, I replaced it here to mask my username
<|3b|>
is it ~ in SBCL_HOME ?
<phoe>
oh, I see.
<hajovonta>
yes
<phoe>
then you might want to replace it there
<hajovonta>
yes, that was the problem. Thank you guys!
<phoe>
<3
<|3b|>
and it is same version when started from emacs?
<varjag>
the nearest airport to els locales is malaga?
<varjag>
right
<|3b|>
and (user-homedir-pathname) returns same thing from both?
<varjag>
should book the tickets..
<hajovonta>
the versions match
<hajovonta>
(why wouldn't they, I only have 1 sbcl on the system... )
<|3b|>
first rule of tech support, even if you know something is true, check anyway :)
<hajovonta>
:)
<hajovonta>
my brother who once worked in tech support, said that 40% of the problems was due to some power failure (not plugged in, not switched on, etc)
<|3b|>
yeah
<|3b|>
and probably 40% of the rest were not plugged in but the person just didn't tell them after figuring that out :)
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<ebzzry>
The slime docs say that to load a system, one can use `M-x slime-load-system`
<ebzzry>
However that function can’t be found.
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<ebzzry>
Am I missing something?
<jdz>
ebzzry: Make sure you have slime-asdf contrib loaded.
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<scymtym>
beach: in the first paragraph of section 3, inlining of globally defined functions is discussed. i have two suggestions: 1) state explicitly (if it actually is the case) that the remainder of the paper will not be concerned with this kind of inlining 2) if possible, avoid "we simply incorporate the abstract syntax tree of F" since that sounds like the descriptions in other sources cited and criticized earlier
<otwieracz>
|3b|: same. *and* btw SBCL is frying CPU at 100%.
<beach>
scymtym: Thanks.
<beach>
I need to think about how to say that.
<scymtym>
beach: i have no idea either. that's why i didn't try to suggest an alternate formulation
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<beach>
Yeah, that's my job. :)
<flip214>
minion: memo for sjl: thanks a lot for the vlime update.... (but) I'm currently looking at spacemacs.... let's see.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell sjl when he/she/it next speaks.
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<beach>
scymtym: I added a phrase that I hope clarifies the purpose of incorporating the AST.
<beach>
Thanks for pointing it out.
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<scymtym>
beach: sure. i think the addition clears it up
<beach>
Great! Thanks again.
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<|3b|>
beach: in 3rd bullet list in 3.2 "...about ownership lexical variables.", missing "of"?
<beach>
Fixed! Thanks!
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<otwieracz>
|3b|: semes like it works with :content-length t
<otwieracz>
|3b|: what means that I have to load few GB into memory…
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<beach>
otwieracz: What is your native language?
<|3b|>
:/
<beach>
I am asking because other people here also use "what" instead of "which" or "that", so I am wondering what languages might do that.
<beach>
otwieracz: I am not complaining. I am just an amateur linguist. :)
<otwieracz>
beach: Polish, unfortunately. Sorry, my native language, forigve me for this advertisement. :)
<beach>
Not unfortunately at all.
<beach>
I would love to know Polish.
<tazjin>
I'd love to learn Russian, but it's very difficult to learn a language like that without living in the country
<tazjin>
and Russia is not the kind of place I'd like to live in :)
<beach>
Heh.
<|3b|>
beach: "As we can see in Figure 2, An ..." -> "... Figure 2, an ..." ?
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<beach>
Thanks. Fixed.
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<beach>
scymtym: How would you like to be acknowledged?
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<beach>
Someone should write a document entitled "the making of an ELS submission" :)
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<|3b|>
beach: could be a bit more clear about how the 4 steps in 3.2 correspond to worklist items, in particular "the mapping" and similar in step 4 are for each of 2 output worklist items
<beach>
OK, I'll look into that.
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<beach>
It won't be right away. It's almost lunch time.
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<|3b|>
ebzzry: might try (ql:update-client)
<|3b|>
(assuming you aren't trying to load quicklisp as part of loading something else)
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<beach>
|3b|: Different journals/conferences, so the papers might not be identical.
<beach>
Oh, maybe 3 and 6 are the same.
<beach>
and 4 and 5.
<beach>
I'll look into that.
<beach>
It used to be current practice to "publish" both in SIGPLAN notices (no peer review) and in a conference (with peer review).
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<|3b|>
ah
<beach>
But, yeah, there are definitely duplications. Odd.
<_death>
perform some Same-Paper Coalescing Optimization
<beach>
It's OK to include both references in case of SIGPLAN+conference. They may be slightly different, and one could be easier to get hold of.
<|3b|>
also odd that 3 and 6 sorted differently (assuming it is sorted automatically)
<beach>
Yeah, I need to figure that one out.
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<beach>
It should be automatic. Alphabetical order.
<|3b|>
though presumably related to whatever caused duplication in the first place
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<Lithp>
Good day Lispers.. So is it possible to have an object (B) be the slot-value of another object (A) and then modify the print-slot-value of (A) to print the values of (B) under the (A) slot when calling print-object on (A)?
<p_l>
... I don't see why not?
<Lithp>
Maybe the meta-question is should i be putting object instances in another instances slots?
<p_l>
Lithp: there's nothing saying you shouldn't. They are just objects, like any other value
<|3b|>
everything you would put in a slot is an instance of some object
<p_l>
just not everything is a CLOS class
<Lithp>
I just had an aha moment.
<phoe>
but everything is an instance of *some* class
* |3b|
isn't sure what you are asking though. do you want to modify the printing of As to show B? or somehow cause the printing to change due to containing a B without explicitly modifying the printing of As?
<Lithp>
Exactly
<|3b|>
yeah, instance of some class, not some object
<phoe>
can do that
<phoe>
define a print-object method on A that somehow prints the contents of B
<Lithp>
So a print-onject would nest an object instance under the holder instance slot
<Lithp>
I have an idea and will post back asap
<phoe>
this is pretty commonly done, actually, when you want to print-unreadable-object with some details about this object
<phoe>
and the details are usually fetched from this object's slots
<phoe>
so you can have #<PERSON "John Doe" (01-04-1980) #x12345678>
<phoe>
instead of a nameless #<PERSON #x12345678>
<Lithp>
Thats where my problem is arising.. print-unreadable to afile needs to be able to print the nested object
<phoe>
Lithp: and what's the problem with that?
<phoe>
Wait, to a file? What do you mean?
<|3b|>
just print the contents of the slot, and the print-object method for whatever is there will be used :)
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<ebzzry>
|3b|: I got `The most up-to-date client, version 2017-03-06, is already installed.`
<|3b|>
ebzzry: what are you trying to load? the message seems to be saying that whatever it is you are loading has a bad .asd :)
<ebzzry>
|3b|: Yes, I’ll check.
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<ebzzry>
|3b|: the bug was loading quicklisp via another asd
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<ebrasca>
beach: partial inlining sound good
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<solene>
but all I get is hello NAME because name is taken as a symbol
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<|3b|>
solene: macros are expanded before it starts evaluating the loop (for example during compilation), so it can't see the value of variables inside the loop when it is expanded
<solene>
|3b|, is there a way to do it ?
<|3b|>
what are you trying to do?
<|3b|>
(as in what motivated you to write a macro instead of just use a function)
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<|3b|>
possibly you wanted ,(getf parameters :name) in the macro, but then it would break if you stored the parameters in a variable
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<|3b|>
or maybe you just wanted a function with keyword arguments, (defun hello (&key name) (format t "hello ~a~%" name)) (loop for name in '(...) do (hello :name name))
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<solene>
this example is a reduced version of a macro I use in a piece of code I wrote. It's hard to explain... but it's a "config file" for non lisp people. I found it easier to write (f name1 test-this (:param1 "hello")) instead of (f 'name1 'test-this '(list :param1 "hello")))
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<p_l>
what's the current status on web frameworks? Something more complete than bare-bones HTTP handling + templates, for example seaside style?
<pjb>
solene: macros are called this way: (funcall (macro-function 'm) `(m …) nil)
<pjb>
so: (loop for name in '("martin" "sheley") collect (funcall (macro-function 'hello) `(hello (:name ,name)) nil)))
<|3b|>
solene: well, that example has all quoted values and no variables, which would work with your macro
<|3b|>
if you want a more complicated not-quite-lisp DSL that interacts with lisp variables, you may need to do more work in your code/macros
<|3b|>
possibly you want a functional API you can call from code that is used by the "non-lisp-user" macro
<pjb>
solene: (loop for partition in '("/" "/home/" "/var/") collect (funcall (macro-function '=>) `(=> mail disk-usage (:path ,partition :limit 90)) nil))
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<|3b|>
so you could do (=> whatever) or (function-=> 'whatever)
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<pjb>
solene: when you call a function, you pass the parameters in number, type and order that are required by the function. It's the same with a macro function.
<solene>
i see, sadly it get too much complicated for non lisper. I may write a wrapper for passing a list maybe
<pjb>
It should make you think!
<pjb>
You have two ways out.
<pjb>
And when I say "think", it should be obvious if you run my code examples…
<|3b|>
consider for example distinguishing (=> mail disk-usage (call-some-function)) from what you have, like if you wanted to look up the mount-point and usage from a DB
<|3b|>
at some point you end up adding back in the ' to distinguish which things should be evaluated or not, and are back to just having a function
<|3b|>
there is also the option of writing a macro that expands to a bunch of (=> ...) forms, if the cases where you want variables are limited enough
<solene>
pjb, I understood your examples, I may build something with it maybe
<solene>
i thank you for your answers
<|3b|>
though possibly still had to do cleanly without parsing the forms manually, for same reasons
<pjb>
solene: well no! |3b| listed the correct options: - modify your macro to evaluate arguments at run-time, or - write a macro to expand to multiple macro calls!
<pjb>
or of course, use a function, not a macro.
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<pjb>
How can you justify a macro here?
<pjb>
What funcall macro-function demonstrate is that a macro generates CODE. Therefore there's almost always no point in calling it at run-time.
<solene>
pjb, it's only to skip quoting the names mail and disk-usage in the example case
<pjb>
Again, no point in skipping quoting. As you've seen, you want to pass the result of expressions and variables!
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<solene>
I see, using a function instead of a macro would just requires using (=> 'mail 'disk-usage ) and everying would works
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<pjb>
solene: you can also use keywords: (=> :mail :disk-usage) so no need for quotes then.
<solene>
pjb, : or ' that doesn't change that much
<pjb>
or also extend your language: (defconstant mail 'mail) (defconstant disk-usage 'disk-usage) then: (=> mail disk-usage)
<solene>
ahh, good. I have a macro to create the defun of disk-usage etc...
<pjb>
But the point is that you can write (=> *where* *what*)
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<ecraven>
with correct definitions, you can even write (*where* => *what*) :P
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<solene>
pjb, thank you for your help. I've been able to use a function instead of a macro, this makes everything easier, and so I've been able to use a &rest parameter. So (=> mail disk-usage (:path "/" :limit 90)) becomes (=> mail disk-usage :path "/" :limit 90)
<solene>
using (defparameter disk-usage 'disk-usage) when disk-usage is created :)
<lieven>
if you want self evaluating symbols, you could just use :disk-usage
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<solene>
lieven, I aim at non lisper as this is a configuration file, I prefer avoid most of syntax is possible
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<ebzzry>
What library provides good list comprehensions?
<solene>
I'm working on a monitoring tool that check user defined things and use some user defined alerts when the check fails, it should be really easy to use
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<pjb>
solene: if you aim non-lispers, perhaps you should write your own interpreter for your configuration files. As it is, I assume you use LOAD, and any lisp is available. This will be confusing to naive users when they'll enter the debugger for incorrect lisp code.
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<solene>
pjb, I want that the config file allow to use code in it, and the config is really easy. It's a personal project that I share to people so it should be improved with time or if people contribute
<solene>
but at the moment, I aim at something with a relative ease of use and easy to develop (it's only 200 lines)
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<beach>
ebrasca: Thanks!
<beach>
|3b|: I think I fixed both issues (worklist items and references).
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<rumbler31>
good morning
<kark>
morning
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<beach>
Hello rumbler31. Hello kark.
<oleo>
evening
<beach>
kark: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<kark>
hiya
<kark>
yeah, I'm new
<beach>
OK, welcome then. What brings you to #lisp?
<kark>
just here to listen :)
<beach>
Fair enough.
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<oleo>
weird, all of a sudden 2Gb dynamic space size does not suffice anymore and i get into the debugger telling the control stack overflow
<beach>
oleo: The control stack is not in the dynamic space.
<oleo>
i hope the kernel update didn't botch anything
<oleo>
ya, but it worked yesterday and today it is telling that
<oleo>
i don't get it
<beach>
oleo: It is more likely that you have a runaway recursion.
<oleo>
i built a mcclim image
<oleo>
and i'm running that and when i open some .lisp file to edit in climacs, i get thrown into the debugger with that control stack stuff
<oleo>
the thing is yesterday it was working ok
<beach>
Strange indeed.
<oleo>
and i only updated the kernel along with libc
<beach>
Wow, yes I see why you are baffled.
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<oleo>
ok, what should i do ?
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<oleo>
i didn't specify control stack size, neither at compile time of my local sbcl nor at the time of making the mcclim image
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<oleo>
and normally i use 2Gb for dynamic space size
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<oleo>
recompile ?
<oleo>
well, i'll just recompile sbcl
<oleo>
and see if stuff works afterwards as expected
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<oleo>
wth, it doesn't go away
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<rumbler31>
when you land in the debugger, does the backtrace make sense?
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<oleo>
CL-USER> INFO: Control stack guard page unprotected
<oleo>
Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution
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<oleo>
that's all i get, and it throws into the debugger obviously cause the file doesn't get displayed actually and it all goes unresponsive at that moment, so i don't get a real backtrace either
<rumbler31>
hmm
<oleo>
when i press C-c again a debugger frame pops up but then that's only because of my interrupt
<rumbler31>
what happens if you load things outside of climacs
<oleo>
hmm, didn't test that
<oleo>
wait a bit
<oleo>
i was suspicious that my drive went bad and am fscking it
<oleo>
will take a few minutes
<beach>
Watching drmeister struggle with debugging, I had an idea for a great project. The GraphViz algorithms are quite well documented. An implementation in Common Lisp of those algorithms would make it possible to whip up a CLIM window with some graphs corresponding to things like ASTs, HIR instruction graphs, discriminating automata, etc.
<Shinmera>
the debugger is being invoked in another thread. Run it with slime to catch it.
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<beach>
Currently, we have to generate a dot file, then apply GraphViz to it, and finally, start some image viewer to view it.
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<Shinmera>
beach: Writing a native flow chart editor has been on my "not so far in the future" todo. I don't think I'm going to emulate graphviz, but that could be used instead too for your purposes.
<beach>
Yes, indeed.
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<Shinmera>
Well, I already have a prototype, but it doesn't draw connections between elements nicely or know how to distribute nodes automatically.
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<beach>
I was just thinking of GraphViz because it is well documented, and they did the required research.
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<beach>
Shinmera: So do you plan to come up with layout algorithms yourself?
<Shinmera>
Might be an interesting problem to think about, but I don't know yet.
<beach>
As I recall, it's a hard problem.
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<Shinmera>
The domain may also be different for my application (flow charts) than for graphviz (general graphs)
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<Shinmera>
Anyway, I'm sure I'll do some research into existing systems when I get to it.
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<beach>
Of course.
<Bike>
well most of the stuff in cleavir is flow charts.
<beach>
True.
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<Shinmera>
You could probably get pretty far by doing a primitive thing like: on split, move one line down by the height of an element and continue the other on the same line. Would just have to know at which point a loop happens so you can avoid the recursion.
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<Xach>
I think Luke Gorrie uses a smalltalk environment to visualize things like that in his language development.
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<beach>
Are you saying Smalltalk already has the layout software?
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<Xach>
beach: I think the environment he uses lends itself to developing new visualizations. That is just a guess, though.
<beach>
I see.
<Xach>
I don't know if he is reusing existing capability or developing new capability.
<Xach>
I do know that the screenshots look pretty.
<Xach>
And he is doing low-level work in a non-mainstream environment and is productive.
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<beach>
Might be worthwhile asking him. Thanks for pointing it out.
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<Xach>
alvy ray smith has a nice set of memos and papers that are kind of about the sprite model of compositing graphics, but indirectly illustrate the power of carefully-chosen primitive data structures and operations as a solid foundation for efficient work
<beach>
Isn't that an orthogonal issue compared to graph layout?
<Xach>
Yes...I guess the connection there is that a good foundation allows you to experiment with different layout algorithms quickly rather than a slow batch process where you are reluctant to discard the (unnecessarily) hard work that got you to an unsatisfactory solution
<beach>
Sure, yes.
<Xach>
And I think the smalltalk environment may offer that
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<scymtym_>
http://pharo.org/ (in case anyone wants to have a closer look)
<oleo>
ok
<oleo>
i don't get the file fd somehow
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<rumbler31>
oleo: what?
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<dmiles>
mostly what i am after though is the initarg and initforms
<beach>
Did you type that code, or was it generated?
<dmiles>
i typed it .. but made it square so i could cut/paste it into repl easier
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<beach>
It is not clear what you mean by "printing back the defclasses". There is no such thing as "a defclass". There is such a thing as "a class" and such a thing as "a DEFCLASS form".
<beach>
And it is not clear what "printing back" is supposed to mean.
<beach>
There are a bunch of problems with the code you pasted, and it is not clear how it is related to your question either.
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<beach>
Is this the code you would like to see "printed back"? Is it code that you think might do the "printing back"?
<dmiles>
" to give an idea of what i am talking abou"
<pjb>
Anyways, the MOP provides all the information. You can extract it and build a defclass form.
<dmiles>
i am looking to print out the defclass forms.. even if they are not perfect or complete
<beach>
How can you print a form that is not complete?
<pjb>
dmiles: this is easy: (pprint (defclass-form-for-class (find-class 'foo)))
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<Bike>
why do you want to do this?
<Bike>
this code kinda blows.
<ebdreger>
"why" +1
<ebdreger>
I mean... someone could use some MOP-fu to build a metaclass that stores * in some special location... but... why?
<dmiles>
why: at that point i wrote that I was translating some things to another language.. now that i have my class compiler working .. i am going back to grovel the defclass forms
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<ebdreger>
dmiles: ah. and you have many a class?
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<ebdreger>
what might be easier:
<ebdreger>
write your own fu-grovel-whatever::defclass macro that shadows cl:defclass
<dmiles>
combing over the sources of ECL and CLISP i am dont seeing certain builtin classes
<dmiles>
(after all not all of them are defined the same ways)
<ebdreger>
invoke cl:defclass as appropriate, but munch on the form as you see fit from within your local DEFCLASS
<ebdreger>
(errr... dangling modifier in my wording above... "use your local DEFCLASS to munch on the form as you see fit")
<dmiles>
right now there are not classes defined in my lisp impl.. well except for a could few builtins
<dmiles>
couple few*
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<dmiles>
so i am pulling out of other impls .. it looks like cl-annot is sort of helpfull
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<ebdreger>
ahhh
* ebdreger
thought you wanted to examine your own code
<dmiles>
hoping to pull initargs, documentation etc
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<ebdreger>
definitely ignore my prior metaclass suggestion :)
<ebdreger>
ditto my defclass idea
<dmiles>
cl-annot i think almost has pjb's defclass-form-for-class
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<dmiles>
(thats what i am after at least)
* dmiles
has to go AFK to give one of the kids a ride to school..back in an hour
<Xach>
i found myself wishing for defsystem-form-for-system some time ago
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<Bike>
dmiles: you can use mop accessors to get information directly, rather than reproducing a defclass form.
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<_death>
I think AMOP actually contained an example for printing back defclass forms
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* dmiles
back
<dmiles>
_death: yeah i figured there would exist such examples
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<dmiles>
Bike: *nod*, yeah i dont need the "original" defclass forms
<Bike>
i mean, you don't need defclass forms at all. if you want, like, the list of valid slot initargs, you can just get that directly.
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<dmiles>
beach: what i meant by "incomplete" are cases the :documentation is gone
<dmiles>
Bike: *nod* thats is exactly what my orignal code did.. but i forgot to glean out initarg and initforms
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<Bike>
well, do that too then
<Bike>
still no need for defclass forms
<Bike>
you'd just be getting information, putting it in a form, and then re parsing the form
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<ebdreger>
dmiles: wb
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* ebdreger
nods at Bike. Unless dmiles has need for :metaclass and specific :metaclass-option forms, it sounds like a few quick MOP queries can answer the questions.
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<dmiles>
today i am working on grabbing the bare minimum
<dmiles>
which is not SBCL this time:P
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<dmiles>
not that it was too big, i just seek to define what a minimum will be for bootstrapping
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<dmiles>
i am kind of used to it by now, that whatever i am doing is a horrible idea
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<ebdreger>
dmiles: Meh. Sounds like you just want your Lisp environment to be fully reflexive. ;-)
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<dmiles>
that was supposed to be a /msg to friend .. and what is funny is it applies much better for my channel history in #lisp
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<dmiles>
but yeah, i am working on making sure in my impl that whatever datastructures are there that they can be viewed and altered from multiple programing paradymns (either by prolog predicates/assertions or by MOP)
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<dmiles>
(as in, right now, the class system is based on what the predicates had "asserted" (which created the data at the last link))
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<jmercouris>
Bike: beach said there were some issues with ironclad and you might be able to shed some light on that, do you know anything about that?
<Bike>
"some issues" in what context?
<jmercouris>
I can gist the conversation one moment please
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<jmercouris>
Bike: I mean the actual software, so that pass users could use it
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<shrdlu68>
jmercouris: Almost as long as the TLS 1.2 RFC. Shouldn't be too hard too implement GPG from scratch, though.
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<mfiano>
beach: Hello, do you have a minute free?
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<jasom>
One should also be suspicious of ironclad for online encryption and hashing, since making algorithms with data-independent is hard, and I don't know how much effort was put into it
<shrdlu68>
What do you mean "with data-dependent"?
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<rme>
crypto operations need to take the same time to complete no matter what the input data is. otherwise information can be leaked via side-channel attacks (cf. spectre)
<rme>
I don't believe ironclad was designed with this in mind.
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<shrdlu68>
rme: Is this a shortcoming with CL, or CL implementations?
<shrdlu68>
i.e does it take special effort to prevent side-channel attacks in CL than in, say, C?
<Bike>
dealing with timing attacks in a world of hardware caches must be hard
<aeth>
Afaik SBCL should be perfectly capable of doing the same crypto that C can do, even with 64-bit integers (put them into arrays).
<aeth>
Obviously it depends on the implementation
<Bike>
did you miss the concern
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<aeth>
Is C unable to handle that issue? Or does garbage collection somehow interfere?
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<Shinmera>
Xach: I've decided to go with V4 after all. Time to write some more libraries!
<Bike>
a lot of things interfere. the compiler, for one
<Bike>
garbage collection would be one with certain algorithms, though it doesn't seem like it would usually be important
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<aeth>
CL does not yet have compilers that do advanced optimizations to the degree of C compilers afaik. A lot of the time people assume optimizations that don't happen, just disassemble with (speed 3) or even disassemble with all the optimizations set in favor of speed over everything else (but safety at 1) to see a lot of optimizations that don't happen
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<aeth>
e.g. this is not optimized to constantly return NIL in any implementation afaik: (defun foo () (declare (optimize (speed 3))) (dotimes (i 100) (+ 1 1)))
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<shrdlu68>
Even in C, it takes special effort to prevent side-channel attacks sometimes. Blinding is one such technique.
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<shrdlu68>
One could say that Ironclad's implementation of RSA is vulnerable to side-channel attacks, but all it takes to mitigate this is implement blinding. Same thing Openssl does: https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Manual:RSA_blinding_on(3)
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<aeth>
(what I mean is constantly return NIL while skipping the loop that does nothing, both SBCL and CCL do the loop and they're considered the most optimized compilers)
<dmiles>
aeth: i belive dwim.hu.partial-eval is supposed to do things liek that
<shrdlu68>
I doubt anyone is doing serious crypto in CL anyway, even the few that are are using Openssl bindings.
<dmiles>
aeth: dwim.hu.partial-eval is a lisp to lisp translator
<aeth>
interesting
<dmiles>
its what i been reading my compiler for
<dmiles>
ready-ing
<Bike>
i would guess that most dotimes forms do involve side effects.
<aeth>
Yes, and probably 100% of the non-accidental uses of dotimes that does not fill in the optional return form
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<aeth>
It's like map nil
<dmiles>
heh Bike has a good point, it it should be optiizaed away, the programmer should have not written it
<dmiles>
it it/if it
<Bike>
mainly it just doesn't seem like an important thing to focus effort on.
<aeth>
dmiles: yes, although to be fair, SBCL *does* warn me about "deleting unreachable code" a lot of the time, and with the exception of some local functions (flet or labels) it's always an error and I'm always glad to have been notified
<aeth>
This could simple be yet another case of that, if SBCL did check for that
<aeth>
s/simple/simply/
<aeth>
s/always an error/always my mistake/
<Bike>
the fact that it's unreachable code deletion doesn't mean that it's another case, ie that the compiler would do the same thing either way
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<aeth>
I guess what's different here is that it's reachable, just useless (unless it's being done for timing for some reason... although simply setting speed 0 and debug 3 would probably reenable that if the compiler optimized it away... and why do that for timing?)
<Bike>
on sbcl it does optimize out the addition, so it's just a brief spin
<aeth>
Bike: brief depends on the duration, e.g. change the dotimes to 100000000 and to me it takes 45175.404710144925d0 times as many cycles as a function that just returns NIL
<Bike>
i have basic numeracy, yes
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<dmiles>
(doloop (i 100000000 i) ) just returns 100000000 i assume
<dmiles>
(if aditions is not used)
<Bike>
all i'm saying is that eliminating side-effect-less code is one thing, but eliminating an empty loop is another matter. you'd have to search for basic blocks that immediately reenter themselves based on a condition, determine that the condition can't be affected by other threads etc. it is not really "another case" of other dead code elimination
<Bike>
and, for real code it doesn't seem very useful. it could come up with a dumb code generator, i guess, but then it would probably be able to special-case.
<aeth>
Bike: I was bringing it up as an example of an advanced optimization that people might assume that compilers already do
<aeth>
I'm sorry if I was unclear
<aeth>
and I probably shouldn't have said "simply"
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<pmc_>
Is there a #lisp FAQ? What are the relative merits of SBCL, CMUCL, ECL and CCL?
<aeth>
I'm not aware of anyone who uses CMUCL. I'd be interested in hearing from people who use CMUCL instead of SBCL.
<aeth>
This channel seems to mostly be SBCL, ECL, and CCL users/developers.
<aeth>
(Sometimes Allegro or LispWorks or CLISP come up, too.)
<aeth>
I'm confused to why things are sorted in an arbitrary order there
<pmc_>
yeah, that is the one
<aeth>
The table does match my own experience, though. The only two additional entries I track are Clasp (still incomplete so I understand why it's not in that table) and Mezzano (afaik, that is its own implementation as well as an OS)
<aeth>
The only ones I don't have at least one working copy of are Mezzano, Clasp, and MKCL.
<pmc_>
ok
<aeth>
I use roswell to get access to the most recent versions of ABCL, CCL, CLISP, CMUCL, ECL, and SBCL. (I develop on an older version of SBCL outside of Roswell, and I also have access to several other CLs outside of Roswell.)
<aeth>
I can't get roswell's Clasp to compile and roswell doesn't have mkcl afaik.
<Shinmera>
And of course the commercial ones (SCL, ACL, LW)
<aeth>
Commercial implementations are more difficult to decide if they're alive. Allegro and LispWorks are obviously alive. Scieneer is and mocl are probably alive. I think even Genera is "alive" because some entities have support contracts with Symbolics or something? I could be wrong, though.
<Shinmera>
Anyway, I'm not surprised Roswell's Clasp script fails. It's probably out of date and even if it weren't, Clasp is kinda difficult to get compiled still.
<aeth>
Shinmera: What I think is happening is that the make file is failing (not surprising; fail, install another dependency, retry is a common workflow) and then all I'm getting is the Lisp backtrace instead of something useful
<aeth>
Obviously, the specifics on that table are just me trying to get my engine to work on other implementations. I want to have all relevant implementations as rows, though.
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<aeth>
I cannot get cl-sdl2 to work on ABCL (not surprising), CLISP (not surprising), and CMUCL (fairly surprising). I don't think cl-sdl2 officially lists what it supports or doesn't support, though.
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<aeth>
I will probably put together similar implementation support tables on everything I write. I'm tired of having to go through the ASDF and source files and hoping to find out what something supports.
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<wladz_>
Does anybody use Roswell? I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate an expression from command line arguments
<wladz_>
like: ros '(print "Hello")'
<Xach>
wladz_: My impression is that the main body of people using roswell aren't here, but there are a not-small number of users out there.
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<White_Flame>
you could try ##lisp, as that's lisp in general, not Common Lisp
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<Xach>
White_Flame: roswell is a common lisp implementation manager (i think)
<White_Flame>
oops, my bad
<White_Flame>
can't keep track of all the other non-CLs :)
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<aeth>
I don't know of any advanced uses of Roswell, I mostly use it for "ros use foo && ros emacs &", where I then run tests in SLIME. I think it can run tests in a more automated way, though, so I don't even use Roswell to its full extent for my use case.
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<jasom>
wladz_: it doesn't appear to support that
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<jasom>
wladz_: at least it's not mentioned at all in the readme
<Shinmera>
wladz_: Use the -e flag
<wladz_>
Thanks I'll check it out
<wladz_>
emacsclient --eval '(print "Hello")'
<wladz_>
So far the only solution I have to evaluate lisp on the command line is Emacs
<Shinmera>
And at some point I'll hopefully finally manage to motivate myself enough to rewrite Lionchat to use Maiden and thus be protocol-agnostic.
<Shinmera>
(which means it'll be an IRC client)
<Shinmera>
Alternatively if you're impatient you can write your own. All the pieces are there.
<bms_>
I know about ERC and I think I might switch from Hexchat to that, I was just wondering if anyone knew of others. I found Beirc on Github, but it doesn't like to find my init-file and it breaks easily. Then there's KIRC on Github, which is more recent, but less full-featured.
<bms_>
I was thinking about writing my own.
<bms_>
Also, by less full-featured, I mean completely unsatisfactory. Like, worse than the Mezzano IRC client (which didn't even have /msg functionality until I added it last year).
<bms_>
Of course, the Mezzano IRC Client is still quite a sad case that I need to work on.
<Shinmera>
Well, if you're interested, /I/ would be very interested to find someone else to either change or rewrite Lionchat to Maiden.