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<mfiano> jasom: You can connect to a weechat relay with weechat.el if you want to use/configure it with _a_ lisp.
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<zhoujingrui> hi
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* Xach uses css to hide a lot of noise in ql failure logs
* Xach should tell baggers
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<fiddlerwoaroof_> Xach: are you involved with vivace graph at all?
<Xach> fiddlerwoaroof_: i added some features
<Xach> fiddlerwoaroof_: but it was a few years ago
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<pmc_> Does the book version of Practical Common Lisp have an index?
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<jmercouris> pmc_: The website does, I assume the book would have a table of contents
<jmercouris> pmc_: What do you mean by index anyway? a glossary?
<bms_> Most books with chapters tend to have some sort of index.
<pmc_> Like a listing of words and page numbers.
<bms_> It's like a glossary, but instead of definitions, it gives you page numbers.
<jmercouris> Ah right, yes, I've seen that in textbooks
<bms_> Oh, jmercouris, after a day or two of work, I got nEXT running on Arch Linux. Most of that time was consumed by the Webkit2GTK build, which I later discovered was unnecessary. Anyway, I like it very much so far.
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<jmercouris> bms_: Nice! I'm happy to hear that you got it running :)
<jmercouris> and that you are enjoying it so far
<jmercouris> there was a user attempting to make a pkgbuild for it, and was struggling
<bms_> I really am. It works perfectly with my current setup. I've never written a pkgbuild from scratch, only done some editing.
<jmercouris> Well, just wait until the next release, there's a lot of quite cool things in the works!
<bms_> Alright, great.
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<jmercouris> Is there a implementation agnostic way to get command line arguments, or OS?
<jmercouris> I would like to adapt my build script to build differently on MacOS than on Linux
<jasom> jmercouris: uiop
<jmercouris> jasom: is there any documentation for UIOP that I can look at?
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<jmercouris> last time I had to look through the source, is there an API at the least?
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<jasom> jmercouris: it's all in the docstrings for the functions, so it's doable if you have it in the repl
<jasom> or you could use one of a dozen tools to generate documentation from that
<jmercouris> jasom: Ah, didn't know that, should have checked that, that's good
<jmercouris> Nah, I'd rather not generate documentation
<jmercouris> speaking of documentation generators, what do you reccomend?
<jmercouris> s/reccomend/reccommend? not sure how to spell that word
<jasom> (uiop:command-line-arguments)
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<jasom> (uiop:operating-system)
<jmercouris> (uiop:os-macosx-p)
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<jasom> jmercouris: depending on what you're looking for, you may go with one or another of those
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<jmercouris> Yeah, read that before, there's some others not mentioned in that list though
<jmercouris> or review rather
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<jasom> I hate my users so I just don't have documentation
<jmercouris> Lol :D
<jmercouris> so uiop is just part of asdf right?
<jasom> jmercouris: more or less
<jmercouris> I don't ever remember having to install ASDF, does it just come with most implementations?
<jasom> jmercouris: it comes with most implementations *and* it comes with quicklisp
<bms_> Yes, generally.
<jasom> cl:require just farms out to asdf on sbcl even
<jmercouris> jasom: What do you mean by the "even" at the end of the sentence?
<jasom> jmercouris: to indicate how tightly integrated it is with sbcl
<jmercouris> I've noticed a few people on this channel end sentences with "even", never heard anyone in real life say that
<jmercouris> jasom: Hmm, so it's like an emphasis thing, ok, just sounds a bit strange out of place
<jasom> it's to indicate "not just X, but Y too!"
<jmercouris> hmm ok, hopefully I won't start using it IRL :D
<jasom> haha
<jmercouris> anyways, thank you for the info about uiop
<jasom> I'm pretty sure I heard it used in Indiana, and you're somewhere near there, right?
<jmercouris> Yeah, Chicago
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* jasom went to Purdue
<jasom> could be a generational thing, there's lots of old farts like me in here
<jmercouris> Hmm, maybe I should listen more closely and see if I can pick it up in conversation- it's not like I don't ever interact with old people
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<bms_> It's more fun to talk like an early 20th century banker in a bowler hat anyway, old chap.
<jmercouris> forsooth
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<Timzi> anybody know a good way to time a function? I'm grabbing the *trace-output* with a `with-output-to-string`, around a (time ...) now
<Timzi> but that involves appending that time data onto the output from what is being timed, and then the string manip...
<Timzi> I'm looking for something a bit cleaner
<rme> get-internal-real-time is useful for finding elapsed time
<bms_> A snow day tomorrow, I expect. Snow should come in around 1:00 PM, leaving the school unable to get anyone home unless they dismiss at 11:00.
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<Timzi> looks better, can that give me something finer than seconds?
<rme> its resolution is internal-time-units-per-second
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<Timzi> oh duh I see that in the describe now, thanks rme!
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<beach> mfiano: I am never available at that time of day. Now I am.
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<jmercouris> good morning
<beach> Hello jmercouris.
<beach> jmercouris: To answer your question from yesterday: http://metamodular.com/partial-inlining.pdf
<jmercouris> nice
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<jmercouris> where should I send my notes?
<jmercouris> or rather, how can I help?
<jmercouris> I am just assuming proofreading is what you'd like
<jmercouris> the email in the header fine?
<beach> Yes, it is fine, but you can give comments here.
<jmercouris> ok
<beach> Or use my gmail address that I read more often: robert.strandh@...
<jmercouris> double negative "However, inlining does not have only advantages" can be simplified
<jmercouris> "however, inlining also has disadvantages"
<beach> OK.
<jmercouris> I'll just write them in an email, I think that's easier
<beach> OK, no problem.
<beach> Also include how you would like to be acknowledged.
<jmercouris> I'll try to think of a funny title then :D
<beach> Your name would be best.
<jmercouris> Ok
<jmercouris> beach: It might be easier if you give me the latex sources, I edit them and you can then do an ediff or something
<beach> Hmm, that assumes that I agree with your comments, no?
<beach> Anyway, the sources are in [SICL]/Papers/Partial-inlining.
<jmercouris> Well, you don't have to agree with my changes, but it'll make it easier for you to accept/reject them
<beach> The repository is here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
<jmercouris> I have an easier time with ediff at least
<jmercouris> Ok, thanks
<jmercouris> I won't make a PR or anything, I'll just email you the diff'd file
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<beach> Sounds good.
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<jmercouris> the voice in this paper sounds so much like you on IRC
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<jmercouris> the only thing I am worried about is that the diff will show changes when I type in M-q to limit the width of the paragraphs showing false changes
<jmercouris> maybe I shoulc compile the dog
<jmercouris> s/dog/doc :D
<beach> I'll figure it out.
<jmercouris> ok
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<jmercouris> beach: Did you get my email?
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<beach> I did. Thanks!
<beach> I'll process them during the day.
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<beach> s/them/the suggested improvements/
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<mfiano> beach: I recall you once had a great argument against using the :TYPE slot option for DEFCLASS slots. I can't seem to find that in my logs. Care to repeat your view on that matter?
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<beach> mfiano: I think it was just the ordinary argument against manifest typing, i.e., that it forces the programmer to provide information early in the life of some software, and this information is often incorrect later on, so it creates a lot of maintenance later on.
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<mfiano> That is fair. I think that much more applies to documentation, though. I have seen docstrings that don't agree with the following code much more often.
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<beach> Absolutely.
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<beach> And comments too, where the programmer thinks that more comments always provide more information. But then they have to be kept in sync with the code.
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<mfiano> I agree a little too much on the matter, that it sometimes hurts me. Until my software is release-ready, which is takes a long time if ever, I don't provide documentation anymore. I do however maintain offline Orgmode outlines for larger projects to help me organize my thoughts and prepare for the future when I will write real documentation -- and by real, I mean offline documentation with examples, diagrams,
<mfiano> etc.
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<beach> I see, yes.
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<beach> Does the word "boclus" suggest any associations (positive or negative)? I am thinking of using it as a name for a library.
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<mfiano> Perhaps. Is it associated with the CLUS project?
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<beach> No.
<jasom> it's sulcob spelled backwards
<mfiano> It's 'bogus' if you aren't paying attention.
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<beach> Sure. I don't mind that. :)
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<beach> Maybe I'll continue thinking...
<rme> "bolus" is the name for the wad of chewed food that goes down the esophagus after swallowing. that's what I originally read, fwiw.
<mfiano> Ha
<beach> Heh.
<jasom> okay, someone as a larger vocabulary than I
<beach> OK, back to the drawing board. Thanks.
<jasom> I think it's fine as a name
<beach> We'll see. It is not *that* important.
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<pillton> Have you exhausted all names starting with C?
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<beach> pillton: No. Just thinking of some variations.
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<phoe> Good morning
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<beach> Hello phoe.
<beach> phoe: Are you planning any ELS submissions this year?
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<crsc> Hi
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<beach> Hello crsc.
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<phoe> beach: I don't.
<phoe> I need to finish CLUS instead of writing new papers.
<beach> I see.
<phoe> I'll work on new stuff after finishing the old one. (:
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<hajovonta> hi all
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<beach> Hello hajovonta.
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<hajovonta> hm
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<phoe> hey hajovonta
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<hajovonta> hi phoe
<hajovonta> it turns out that my automation framework written in CL is so useful that I have to deploy it to other colleagues
<phoe> >have to
<phoe> what do you mean?
<hajovonta> manager says.
<phoe> xD
<phoe> that's good news!
<hajovonta> yes, good news. I will ask stupid questions in the channel in the near future :)
<Shinmera> Oh boy
<phoe> go ahead, #lisp and #clnoobs are here to help
<mfiano> Be prepared. Perfect software with no bugs suddenly becomes fragile and time consuming to maintain once you incf its users :)
<phoe> though judging by the fact that you've already written a useful thing, it's more #lisp than #clnoobs
<Shinmera> If software exists with no one to use it does it have any bugs?
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<phoe> #lispzen
<phoe> hajovonta: what exactly does it automate? is it a test framework of sorts?
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<pjb> hajovonta: yes, what does it automate?
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<hajovonta> phoe: yes, it helps in manual (system) testing
<hajovonta> some tests are running for days, and at certain points, an interaction is needed
<hajovonta> the setup of the test is usually the same every time, and I quickly got tired of repeating the same task
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<hajovonta> at the heart of the thing is a basic CLI wrapper for SBCL which I put on github, https://github.com/hajovonta/cl-expect
<hajovonta> it's not 100% up to date though, it got better in the last month
<hajovonta> but you get the idea
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<pjb> hajovonta: do you create pty/tty pairs? (like expect(1))
<pjb> oh, it's sbcl specific.
<hajovonta> yes
<pjb> But in anycase, congratulation, you've got lisp's foot in the door! :-)
<hajovonta> that's exactly what I feel, too! :)
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<phoe> hajovonta: gratz!
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<hajovonta> thanks
<hajovonta> as for usefulness, I already started using it as soon as it became usable - first half of the last year
<hajovonta> at this point, it is proven to be useful
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<hajovonta> and it just feels good that I don't have to be in the office to do work because I have a loyal servant :)
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<phoe> that's properly done test automation!
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<hajovonta> how can I declare a function definition ignorable? I have some created with flet, that I don't use in a particular macroexpansion, and SBCL style-warns about deleting unused functions
<_death> (declare (ignorable #'foo))
<hajovonta> very cool, thanks
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<mitc0185> I am starting a side project using GNU Common Lisp -- part of the fun is using something that's a bit dated. Any words of caution before I go too far down this road? Should I use a different distribution?
<beach> Yes.
<beach> SBCL, CCL, and ECL are the most common choices here.
<random-nick> GCL is not an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp
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<pjb> random-nick: not YET.
<beach> mitc0185: We call them "implementations" of Common Lisp.
<mitc0185> doh
<mitc0185> my bad ;)
<pjb> if you're on macOS, I would strongly advise ccl.
<pjb> then you may use sbcl or ecl (or clisp or abcl etc) depending on the deployment platform.
<mitc0185> I'm actually on OpenBSD, and part of the reason I found GCL first was my inferior pkg_info skills
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<mitc0185> I will look at these options -- thanks for your help
<tazjin> I've been trying (and failing) to use ironclad to verify RSA signatures generated using the openssl command line utility, does anyone have experience with that?
<beach> mitc0185: The OS package managers tend to be behind compared to the latest versions.
<pjb> Well, ccl runs on freebsdx86; I don't know about openbsd; ask in #ccl
<beach> mitc0185: It is probably best to install SBCL directly from SourceForge, if that is what you decide to do.
<pjb> mitc0185: you may have more luck with sbcl, indeed: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
<beach> mitc0185: Then, it is recommended that you use Quicklisp to install the rest, including SLIME.
<pjb> mitc0185: check http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
<pjb> assuming you've installed emacs as a prerequisite to being a programmer anyways.
<pjb> ^W^W computer user anyways.
<pjb> Yes, I know, I'm old-school.
<Shinmera> mitc0185: If you have access to a Windows, Mac, or Linux system, the easiest way would be to use http://portacle.github.io
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<jdz> tazjin: My (successful) experience with ironclad has been decrypting DSA-encrypted content.
<Shinmera> Could also try to compile a portacle distribution on your own, but I can't say I have high hopes of that working.
<tazjin> @jdz unfortunately DSA doesn't help me much, the end-goal is verifying a JWT RS256 (RSA + SHA256) signature. Fukamachi's jose library implements code (using ironclad) that looks like it should do the right thing, but it doesn't seem to work
<tazjin> and I can't get any kind of RSA-verification (or message decryption!) to work with ironclad, unless the encryption/signing was also performed using ironclad (in which case it doesn't verify/decrypt in other tools)
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<jdz> tazjin: In my case I was decrypting data encrypted with other tools, and it worked.
<tazjin> jdz: algorithms other than RSA work fine
<Shinmera> You sure there isn't some kind of salting going on?
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<jdz> Or proper padding.
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<tazjin> Shinmera: no salting, so I'm currently investigating padding as jdz mentioned, but I'm not sure if the padding is relevant for signing?
<tazjin> at least the ironclad API doesn't explicitly expose padding parameters for signing functions, but there are some OAEP functions that could be called manually, I'll try that
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<jdz> tazjin: Just in case, my code is here: https://gist.github.com/jdz/fcc8c33904001468d6ce8c23e90cfb76
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<shrdlu68> tazjin: Take a look at cl-tls, it implements PKCS1 and others.
<tazjin> @shrdlu68 thanks, I'll take a look
<tazjin> I think https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/pull/93 may be related to my issue
<tazjin> presumably the ironclad on quicklisp is froydnj's, and not the sharplisper's version
<tazjin> or well, lets not presume anything, checking now :)
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<shrdlu68> Ironclad's RSA is fine, it just doesn't do the encryption-block formatting in PKCS#1, which other tools may do.
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<tazjin> shrdlu68: ah, your rsassa-pkcs1.5-verify looks like exactly the thing I need, thanks again
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<shrdlu68> tazjin: I'm gladdened.
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<Xach> Shinmera: does maiden-lookup do dns resolution during the build?
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<Xach> Shinmera: my build host was off the network last night, and there were a number of interesting failures due to the network being down...that one surprised me a little
<Shinmera> It fetches a couple of github pages to build a documentation index.
<Shinmera> I could expand it into the file directly but that would mean having to update the file whenever the docs change, and having a gigantic index file.
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<Shinmera> If it's a big deal I guess I can try to figure out a way around it being needed during build?
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<Xach> Not a big deal
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<Shinmera> Allows things like this:
<Shinmera> Colleen: look up harmony extending
<Colleen> Extending harmony's segments https://shirakumo.github.io/harmony#extending_harmony's_segments
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<mfiano> Shinmera: hello. I got a cl-opengl question for you if you got a sec
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<tazjin> shrdlu68: your code actually works for my use-case! Considering your license, I suppose you're fine with me selectively copying some of it into an open-source project with proper attribution?
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<shrdlu68> tazjin: I am! I wrote that code a while back, and I believe you're the first to find it useful.
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<beach> mfiano: So nobody else is allowed to answer, even if they know it?
<mfiano> If I'm using the raw bindings %gl package, how should I pass in an argument that shouls be NULL as far as C is concerned? Do I have to make a null pointer with cffi or can I give it a 0 or something instead?
<mfiano> Sure they can, if they happen to know the answer.
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<tazjin> shrdlu68: I'm actually mildly surprised by that, do people not interface with APIs using JWTs for authentication, and if they do - don't they validate their tokens? ;-)
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<shrdlu68> Few people, if any, do such things in CL.
<tazjin> I think people do call APIs, but they probably just skip token verification
<tazjin> "if it doesn't respond with 401 it's probably fine"
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<Shinmera> mfiano: Depends on how the argument is declared in the bindings
<Shinmera> mfiano: It should type error if you pass it the wrong thing.
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<mfiano> Ok
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<Xach> In sbcl, if you get STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "blah", does that portend runtime failure? Or is it not predictive?
<Xach> Will it always fail if some part of the code tries to use that alien?
<Shinmera> The library might be loaded at a later point
<Shinmera> If it is already loaded then it is a safe bet that a call to that function is going to fail.
<Xach> I wonder why find-package accepts a package object.
<Shinmera> Probably so that it can be used as an "ensure-package" operation
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<Xach> Shinmera: How do you mean?
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<Shinmera> Well, in any case where you need a package object, you can simply call find-package on whatever the user supplies to you to be sure you get a package object in the end.
<Shinmera> Instead of having to do (etypecase thing ((or string symbol) (find-package thing)) (package thing))
<Xach> That sort of just pushes the weirdness (to me) up a level?
<Shinmera> Well, it should be called ensure-package or coerce-package, in my opinion
<Shinmera> But I can see why one would want that sort of behaviour in general.
<selwyn> hello everyone, i have a question about closures
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<selwyn> in my code <https://pastebin.com/shYiVPhp> i have a function that takes various parameters as arguments and returns a lambda function that depends on them
<selwyn> it is working fine, though sbcl tells me that this lambda function is in fact a closure, and i don't see how the lambda function 'closes over' any of the parameters
<Xach> Shinmera: I feel like I understand the general ensure-foo paradigm, but I tend to think of it as "either find one by this name or create one with this name and return it". I am having a hard time picturing having an object that might be a string or a package, and not knowing/caring, in the first place.
<Shinmera> It references the arguments, so it's a closure.
<selwyn> ok thanks
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<Shinmera> Xach: Well, think of say EXPORT &co. They all perform an operation on a package object, but accept package designators.
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<raynold> Good morning
<Shinmera> For another example of the same thing, in a lot of my applications where I have identifiers for objects I often want to have a function that performs some operation on it, but want to also let the user have convenience by allowing them to pass the function either the object directly, avoiding duplicate lookup, or the identifier.
<Xach> Thanks - that's a sensible situation.
<selwyn> so if i do something like (let ((x 1)) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) then x is closed over?
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<Xach> I think package designators in import/export/shadow/etc can lead to poor understanding of what the operations are doing.
<Xach> sorry, string designators.
<Xach> Maybe I just need a mnemonic, like "only shadow supports strings" or something.
<shrdlu68> selwyn: Don't know what you mean by "close over", but it does capture part of the environment where it's created, so it's a closure.
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<Shinmera> selwyn: A sufficiently smart compiler could notice that the referenced variable is never changed and fold it in at closure creation time, but that's probably quite tricky to do.
<selwyn> ah i see thanks
<selwyn> that's what i was getting at
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<shrdlu68> selwyn: See the "Lexical Variables and Closures" section here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
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<selwyn> thanks shrdlu
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<shka> good evening
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<shrdlu68> Evening, shka
* Metabox every lisper in the room
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* Metabox greets every lisper in the room
<oleo> evening
<Metabox> Hello. Lispers. I would like to learn LISP. Therefore, I would like suggestions of books to learn from.
<Metabox> Anyone, have some suggestions?
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<random-nick> Practical Common Lisp is pretty good
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<Metabox> Thank you for the suggestions! Very nice of you.
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<selwyn> metabox, i am learning right now, 'practical common lisp' and 'on lisp' are good to start with
<Metabox> selwyn: The book is called "on lisp"?
<selwyn> 'common lisp recipes' and 'let over lambda' are also great, but more advanced
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<selwyn> yes 'on lisp' by paul graham
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<Metabox> selwyn: Much thanks.
<selwyn> last i checked, it was out of print but you can order it <http://www.lulu.com/gb/en/shop/paul-graham/on-lisp/paperback/product-22430842.html>
<Metabox> I think I will start with Land of Lisp and take into consideration the latter books you have suggested for further study.
<shrdlu68> First few chapters of Norvig's PAIP, Paul Graham's ACL, Let Over Lambda, and about a dozen more. Have fun!
<Shinmera> Let Over Lambda is terrible and I don't recommend it.
<Metabox> Thank you all. Very kind of you.
<selwyn> what is wrong with let over lambda?
<shrdlu68> Beholder of the eye. I also enjoyed reading CLTL.
<random-nick> let over lambda is more a book about common lisp macros than a book about common lisp
<Shinmera> The code it presents is broken and the amount of self-flagellation in it is reprehensible
<Shinmera> It is written by the exact kind of person that puts other people off of lisp because they look like a douchebag
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<Bike> lol, welp. is that the one with defmacro/g!
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<Shinmera> Yes
<Bike> right.
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<loli> the book has some nice macros one can learn from
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<loli> it showed me a subtle error in some of my macros as well
<loli> from what I can recall, it gets less preachy later in the book
<Shinmera> It also has a lot of macros that in my opinion are awful style
<loli> oh?
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<loli> are you talking about macros like alambda and what not?
<Shinmera> Anaphoric macros in general.
<loli> I rather enjoy alambda for parsing lisp syntax
<Shinmera> And things that try to be too smart, doing non-obvious code-transforms.
<loli> I tend to do (mapcar (almabda ....))
<loli> and a pattern match inside as I don't see the need to give those ones a name
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<loli> I also enjoyed the insight of pointer-* and pointer-& which I used to make a better graph structure
<loli> at least at the time
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<rumbler31> The Machine - Bert Kreischer: THE MACHINE - YouTube
<rumbler31> oops
<rumbler31> damnit
<rumbler31> 13 minutes long you must watch this
<rumbler31> and this whole serries
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<jasom> I consider LoL as a "not bad" source for learning macrology, but not a good source of macros to actually use
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<rumbler31> oh i'm sorry this was the wrong window....
<shrdlu68> Fatwa!
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<phoe> There was this trick in X Windows that switched parentheses and brackets. Some obscure config option.
<phoe> Does anyone remember it?
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<Xach> phoe: I don't know specifically, but I think xmodmap is the tool to achieve it.
<phoe> I know, manually replacing the keybindings.
<phoe> But there was some really weird config option in X server AFAIK that achieved the same effect.
<phoe> I saw it mentioned on #lisp once, I think.
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<random-nick> also, emacs has keyboard-translate
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<phoe> random-nick: YES
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<phoe> thank you so very much!
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