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<aeth> I definitely think the approach for game linear algebra (which is mostly math vectors of size 2, 3, or 4 (where size 4 can be quaternions that encode rotations) and square matrices no larger than 4x4) shouldn't be to rely on anything automated on the compiler's side, and should work with buffers rather than with individual objects.
<pfdietz> Compiler support may be needed for all those weird SIMD instructions.
<aeth> At the moment, I use 2D arrays with row sizes of 3 or 4, but 1D arrays with a special aref could also work. This approach is treating each float individually instead of together like SIMD, though.
<pfdietz> (reads back up the window) oh, that's what was being talked about
<aeth> pfdietz: I think creating a special type in an extension that works portably over SBCL, CCL, ECL, and maybe CMUCL would probably be the direction to go, rather than doing it automatically.
<aeth> (Or just hacking it in via the CFFI)
<aeth> Alternatively, just supporting SBCL with the fast path and using 1D arrays of single-floats for everything else.
<pfdietz> And these days it's all about putting stuff on GPUs.
<pillton> Something like (simd op dest src1 ...) where sources could be a simd-pack or a (chunk <array> <index>).
<aeth> For games, the heavy lifting of the rendering is done on the GPUs, but there's plenty of things that are done on the CPUs. The most intensive is probably game physics, some of which can be done on the GPU, but then that limits how pretty you can make the game look. GPU physics has kind of fallen out of favor, actually, because of this.
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<aeth> Even Nvidia's PhysX is mostly CPU-side these days afaik.
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<aeth> pillton: I don't quite like simd-pack because an array of simd-packs isn't going to be as ideal as working with offsets into a buffer, at least for data structures used in games.
<pillton> Which is why I suggested (simd op dest (chunk <array> <index>)).
<aeth> yeah
<pillton> You would need an operator to compute how many elements to a chunk.
<pfdietz> How would this fit with machine learning, which is another big user of those coprocessors these days?
<aeth> Well, I was thinking about this from the perspective of games. Games don't need to have extremely optimized linear algebra. The very heavy lifting for rendering is done on the GPU and for the rest, it's more about hitting seconds per frame targets like 0.0167 or 0.01 or 0.005
<aeth> So it should be easier to reach acceptable performance with game libraries, before more general purpose linear algebra.
<aeth> And that data, after the game logic processing, is going to end up in (ideally preallocated) static-vectors sent via OpenGL to the GPU
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<aeth> At the moment, I get acceptable performance without using SIMD at all.
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<aeth> For GPU computation, I'm optimistic about SPIR-V eventually being the one-size-fits-all solution for compiling shaders expressed as a mini-Lisp language that can work in OpenGL, OpenCL, and Vulkan. Eventually. It will take a while for it to be supported widely enough.
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<jasom> jmercouris: works on sbcl (with a few #+ccl changes), crashes on ccl
<jasom> jmercouris: oh, it just crashed on sbcl too
<jasom> Memory fault at 0xbbadbeef (pc=0x7fffdbd70cec, sp=0x7fffd8aad6e0)
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<jasom> ccl crashed with a null pointer exception
<jasom> the speed is fine, btw, but it's very crashy
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<cryptomarauder> ugh, instead of going away like I prayed for in early 2000 it's only gotten bigger. Why is java a thing still?
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<cryptomarauder> we built the whole gd web with it even! ๐Ÿ˜ญ
<cryptomarauder> #failtech
<krwq> hello, is it possible to force #'read to not read reader macros? i.e.: (with-input-from-string (inp "#.(+ 2 3)") (read inp)) => 5 - I'd like it to report the error instead
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<krwq> ok nvm: (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read-from-string "#.(+ 2 3)"))
<cryptomarauder> yeah
<cryptomarauder> and make sure your safety and debug optimization qualities are set accordingly to what you desire as well
<aeth> Anyone who makes a Lisp implementation for Intel CPUs (or otherwise deals with syscalls on Intel CPUs) might be interested in this rumor of a major slowdown in an upcoming kernel patch: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/7nngqd/intel_bug_incoming/
<aeth> Reading the comments, it looks like 5% at a minimum, 35% for syscall-heavy things.
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<aeth> It's in Linux kernel 4.15-rc6 so people are benchmarking it.
<pjb> krwq: it is possible: (let ((*readtable* (com.informatimago.tools.reader-macro:remove-all-macro-characters (copy-readtable nil)))) (read-from-string "Hello")) #| --> hello ; 5 |#
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<pjb> aeth: again, as I always say: write it in fucking lisp, don't do FFI! (syscall are FFI on non-lisp-machine OSes).
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<krwq> pjb: are there any pitfalls with *read-eval* being nil? Assume untrusted data on input
<pjb> No, no pitfall.
<krwq> pjb: but with remove-all-macros-characters I assume also comments etc. wouldn't work, right?
<aeth> pjb: I assume the implementations themselves will still do syscalls at some point?
<aeth> So everything will eventually be affected but Mezzano
<pjb> Well, it won't signal an error: (let ((*readtable* (com.informatimago.tools.reader-macro:remove-all-macro-characters (copy-readtable nil)))) (read-from-string "#.(+ 2 3)")) #| --> |#.(+| ; 5 |#
<pjb> without reader macros, READ only parses symbols, integers and floating-point numbers.
<pjb> aeth: right.
<krwq> pjb: I think I'm fine with parsing everything as long as it won't execute anything by default...
<aeth> pjb: Except Mezzano is usually run in a VM and not bare metal, so even most Mezzano instances are affected
<pjb> krwq: #9999999999*0
<krwq> pjb: I didn't realize this was possible - lol
<pjb> krwq: you should try some fuzzyingโ€ฆ
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<pjb> krwq: if you have untrusted data to parse, then do that: parse it! Don't use the lisp reader for that; as you can see, the bare lisp reader only gives you symbols, integers and floating-point numbers (and what makes an integer or a symbol is dependent on *read-base*). You can play tricks with reader macros, but it will always be easier to write and use a normal parser function.
<aeth> My favorite reader macro is #4f(+++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>+++++.+++++++..+++.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<+++[>--------<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.>>+.<++++++++++.)
<pjb> Does it read a lambda form?
<krwq> aeth: what does it do? I'm afraid of running this
<pjb> (#4f(+++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>+++++.+++++++..+++.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<+++[>--------<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.>>+.<++++++++++.))
<pjb> ?
<aeth> pjb: That's a good idea
<aeth> pjb: No, it just directly executes at the moment
<pjb> krwq: it's brainfuck.
<krwq> pjb: I know but I assume CL does not read BF by default?
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<pjb> aeth: it could even take some arguments and return some results, using some convention.
<pjb> krwq: hence #f.
<aeth> #4f means it creates a brainfuck machine of size 4. Although technically they should be infinite, it wastes space
<pjb> THe problem with #f is that it could be defined and used by the implementation.
<pjb> And on the other hand, !?[]{} are reserved for the user.
<pjb> Libraries should provide the reader macro functions, not bound reader macro characters. (they may provide a macro to bind them, but let the user do that).
<pjb> Then there are named-readtables, but I haven't looked into them.
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<aeth> The problem with BF in general is that... it's hard to build data structures that aren't 0-terminated without copying everything and moving the world around with you. So I suspect adding a calling and return convention probably wouldn't be useful.
<aeth> Turing machines are nearly useless, you want registers or stacks.
<aeth> I was playing around with a potential string representation, but real strings (as opposed to C-strings) need a length prefix and all that metadata essentially needs to move with the world because Brainfuck only has relative offsets, so you can't leave it behind.
<aeth> So Lisp-in-BF-in-Lisp would be very slow.
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<aeth> Oh, and good luck with pointers in cons cells in Brainfuck.
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<Zhivago> Why do real strings need a length prefix?
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<aeth> Are CL strings length prefixed by a fixnum?
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<jasom> aeth: cl strings, as vectors, are length-aware, but the standard does not specify any specific memory layout
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<jmercouris> jasom: Good to hear that the speed is fine
<jmercouris> jasom: was it just crashing randomly, or with user interaction?
<jasom> jmercouris: no pattern that I could find
<jmercouris> damn, that's bad news
<jmercouris> could you please send a PR with the SBCL changes you made? or somehow convey them to me?
<jmercouris> It feels like GTK is so unpredictable, maybe I am abusing the API in some ways
<jmercouris> I mean, I definitely am, just wondering what specifically is causing these crashes
<jmercouris> Is it me, or cl-cffi-gtk, or cl-webkit or what
<jmercouris> jasom: How did you make that?
<jmercouris> is there an automated way to do that?
<jmercouris> or you entered the commands above each snippet?
<jasom> jmercouris: git diff
<jmercouris> ok so you just did the commands above each snippet
<jasom> jmercouris: nope, that's the output of "git diff"
<jmercouris> I thought maybe there's some cool software that sees which files have changed, does a git diff for each and makes a nice little output
<jasom> jmercouris: there is, it's called git :)
<jmercouris> jasom: Yeah, that's one part I never was familiar with
<jmercouris> let's say I have a branch, and make another branch, how can I produce a patch file with all the diffs between the two branches?
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<jmercouris> furthermore, if such a file exists, when someone sends me such a file, is there a way I can apply it?
<jasom> jmercouris: git diff <other-branch>
<jasom> patch < foo.patch
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<sigjuice> patch -p1 < foo.patch ?
* jasom forgets if you need to do patch -p1 for the output of a git diff
<jasom> patch has got to be the most annoying user interface ever
<jmercouris> Is there a way to do this via magit?
<jmercouris> I see it
<jmercouris> seems to be "W"
* jasom looked that up with google and nEXT
<jmercouris> jasom: Noiiceee :D
<jmercouris> Wait until the JS actually works
<jasom> jmercouris: it appears to (at least I see autocompletes on google)
<jmercouris> jasom: I meant the web-view-execute part of the interface
<jmercouris> it's supposed to execute parenscript
<jasom> ah
<jmercouris> so things like link-hints, should not be working yet
<jmercouris> any JS that doesn't require piping data back to the lisp program will still work, like scrolling to bottom and top of page, etc
<jmercouris> there's just a few things left
<rumbler31> You started with magit instead of git?
<rumbler31> I did the opposite, I opened magit and was like wuttt, now I know whats going on and I love it
<jmercouris> rumbler31: Nah, I've used git from the CLI for like 2 years
<jmercouris> then went to magit
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<jmercouris> I was using mercurial before that, and CVS before that
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<jasom> jmercouris: correction, nEXT is actually stable on sbcl, it's closing a window that causes everything to get corrupted
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<rumbler31> and peep the rest of that repository for enlightenment
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<jmercouris> jasom: Ah, that's good to know
<jmercouris> jasom: When you say a window, do you mean a tab?
<jasom> jmercouris: nope I mean using the WM to close an entire wnidow
<jasom> jmercouris: the equivalent of clicking the red bubble in the upper-left on OS X
* jasom thinks it causes a window-destroy event in GTK, but I haven't touched GTK for a while so might be wrong
<jmercouris> Yes, that causes a window destroy event, which I currently do not handle
<jmercouris> it's really unstable on CCL for me, maybe i'll try installing sbcl
<jmercouris> how did you install SBCL?
<jmercouris> nvm, you are using gentoo :D
<jasom> jmercouris: apt-get install sbcl
<jmercouris> is that a recent enough version though?
<jmercouris> I guess it should be okay
<jasom> jmercouris: its "a" version
<jasom> you can always use it to build the latest if needed
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<jmercouris> one uses SBCL to build SBCL?
<sigjuice> jmercouris I tried the nEXT gtk branch as well, but didn't get very far. I have ubuntu 17.10, Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.11.5/v1.11.5 (LinuxX8664). After (next:start), I got Error: null-pointer in parse-g-param-spec While executing: GOBJECT:PARSE-G-PARAM-SPEC, in process listener(1).
<jmercouris> sigjuice: Yeah, I figured that out
<jasom> jmercouris: it should build with any conforming CL implementation
<jmercouris> sigjuice: Please pull again, that is a concurrency issue
<jasom> ah, that's the issue I got under ccl
<jmercouris> Yeah, so what happens is
<jmercouris> it will call the next function which is (set-visible-view)
<jmercouris> but the code to create the interface has not returned yet
<jmercouris> meaning it tries to set the visible view on the interface object which is not yet ready
<sigjuice> jmercouris "git pull" says Already up-to-date. 7b0e6bedd7f14fc0fcbf6ae97a75ab57b4885a11 is the commit I'm at.
<jmercouris> So I wrapped set-visible-view in gtk:within-main-loop so the interface would definitely be intialized before that could code run (as they would be running on the same thread)
<jmercouris> huh, that's strange then that you still get that
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<jmercouris> runs on my machine every time :\
<jasom> jmercouris: just did a pull and it still happens
<jmercouris> Is there anymore information you can give me?
<jmercouris> E.g. like a list of restarts what call causes it?
<jasom> jmercouris: have you considered just running all your code in the gtk main loop?
<jmercouris> jasom: I have considered that, I will probably wrap all interface calls in there, yes
<jmercouris> just to avoid weird issues
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<jasom> The following is sufficient to reproduce for me: ccl -e '(asdf:load-asd "'"$PWD/next/next.asd"'")' -e '(asdf:load-system "next/gtk")' -e '(next:start)'
<jmercouris> are you running that as a one liner?
<jasom> jmercouris: yeah
<jmercouris> maybe it needs time to load before you call next:start
<jasom> jmercouris: then you have a bug
<jmercouris> I always wait like 10 seconds or so because it would crash on me when I wouldn't
<jmercouris> I meant in between loading the system and starting
<jasom> jmercouris: any time waiting fixes a bug, you haven't fixed the bug
<jmercouris> I have a feeling the bug is upstream
<jmercouris> it doesn't happen in the Cocoa version
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<sigjuice> I tried (ql:quickload :next/gtk) and then (next:start). I'm not at all familiar with gtk, but I do get a tiny white window with the title nEXT
<jmercouris> hmm yeah, that should be working
<jmercouris> try pressing C-l and loading a web page
<jmercouris> or C-x b and see if you can get any completions for a buffer
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<sigjuice> C-x b and C-l do nothing
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<jmercouris> sigjuice: :\ hmm let me try running SBCL and see how many issues are maybe CCL specific to some lib interactions
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<sigjuice> I can try the latest sbcl too, with jasom's patch. What version of ccl and Linux are you running?
<jmercouris> CCL: Version 1.11.5/v1.11.5 (LinuxX8664)
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<jmercouris> I'm running Ubuntu Server 16.04.3 LTX
<jasom> Is g_idle_add_full thread safe?
<jmercouris> s/LTX/LTS
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<jmercouris> Good morning
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<jasom> jmercouris: you're creating UI all over the place outside of the GTK main thread. That's totally bogus
<jmercouris> jasom: Yes I am, indeed
<jmercouris> jasom: Do you think that's causing crashes?
<jasom> I would fix that before investigating the crashes
<jasom> there's a non-trivial chance that it is, and it's obviously wrong
<jmercouris> Yes of course, I'll make a push as well with some CCL specific changes one sec
<sigjuice> Just got sbcl-1.4.3, but (ql:quickload :next/gtk) complains about Unable to load any of the alternatives: ("libsqlite3.so.0" "libsqlite3.so"). Weird that ccl didn't complain?
<jmercouris> try changing that to a 4 in the source code
<jmercouris> if you got cl-webkit from my fork I made it to a 3 so it would work with ubuntu
<jmercouris> wait, sorry libsqlite, different lib, I'm tired
<jmercouris> and yes, I need to list that as a dependency for linux at any rate, what should I put in the instructions?
<sigjuice> my bad. I didn't realize that I downloaded the 32-bit version of sbcl.
<jmercouris> "Install libsqlitedev package"?
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<sigjuice> trying the 64-bit version, which happens to be 1.4.2. I just clicked on the one that said "newest" here http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html assuming it would be the right one :p
<jasom> jmercouris: within-main-loop provides no sequencing
<jasom> jmercouris: e.g. (gtk:within-main-loop (foo)) (gtk:within-main-loop (bar)) either foo or bar could be called first
<jmercouris> jasom: Yeah, but logically speaking, why would it schedule bar before foo?
<jasom> jmercouris: because it uses a stack?
<jasom> jmercouris: if it uses a stack then there will always be a race
<sigjuice> who is "it" in this context?
<jmercouris> If you had foo, then bar, foo will begin execution probably some cycles before bar gets added to the stack
<jmercouris> I assume too much
<jasom> jmercouris: yes you assume too much.
<jmercouris> Is there not a way to make this not so asynchronous?
<jasom> jmercouris: the usual way is to actually do the work inside the main loop rather than doing a bunch of asynchronous requests
<jasom> jmercouris: you could write your own version of within-main-loop that queues up work and deschedules itself once the queue is empty I suppose
<jmercouris> I also have one other issue related to this
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<jmercouris> webkit2:webkit-web-view-run-javascript has a callback you pass that will get fired upon completion
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<jmercouris> my web-view-execute function needs to be synchronous though, so I have to set up some block that waits for that callback and retrieves the js return value
<jmercouris> The problem is, the cocoa code is all synchronous, and the gtk code is not, I can't have two different models using the same interface, not easily at least
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<jasom> jmercouris: this is why cross-platform GUIs are hard
<Zhivago> Hurrah for promizes.
<sigjuice> jmercouris I was able to load a web page using sbcl-1.4.2
<Zhivago> er, promises.
<jmercouris> sigjuice: Yay!!! :D
<jmercouris> Zhivago: I will not go down that dark dark road
<jasom> Zhivago: I'm not sure if the GTK main loop runs in a lisp thread; if so, lparallel to the rescue!
<jasom> jmercouris: "dark dark road" you're controlling a GTK application from a separate thread, promises light up your road...
<jmercouris> I like the idea of a within-main-loop work queue, I don't get a callback though for all GTK things I fire off
<sigjuice> but I am seeing a bunch of messages like this. Memory pressure relief: Total: res = 13537280/11018240/-2519040, res+swap = 9592832/7073792/-2519040 and (sbcl:77596): Gtk-CRITICAL **: gtk_tree_path_to_string: assertion 'path != NULL' failed and libva error: va_getDriverName() failed with unknown libva error,driver_name=(null)
<Zhivago> Use the promises to tie asynchronous operations back to synchronous operations.
<jmercouris> Zhivago: Can you illustrate an example for me please?
<jasom> jmercouris: a promise converts asynchronous to synchronous with almost zero code
<jmercouris> in CL that is
<Zhivago> Not sure what the latest and greatest for promises in CL is.
<jasom> pseud-cl: (let ((x (promise)) (function-that-takes-callback (lambda () (fulfil x RESULT))) (force x))
<Zhivago> But it should look something like (await (promise (lambda (done) (async-blah done))))
<jmercouris> sigjuice: No idea wht the driver name issue/memory pressure is
<jmercouris> sigjuice: The path !=null assertion refers to a check I do when there are no completions, it can't find a path, therfore can't highlight the first elemtn
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<jmercouris> within the gtk tree view
<jasom> lparallel has good promises
* jasom will try that real quick
<sigjuice> jmercouris calling it a night, but I will check back here for updates and be happy to test things out
<jmercouris> sigjuice: Thank you for your help in testing!
<jmercouris> goodnight
<jmercouris> jasom: feel free to make a PR, any help is appreciated
<jmercouris> I've also applied your patch already
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<jmercouris> it seems to run so much faster in sbcl
<jmercouris> or maybe I am just imagining that
<jmercouris> jasom: just to confirm, you are referring to this: https://github.com/lmj/lparallel yeah?
<jasom> jmercouris: yes
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<jasom> jmercouris: I've made a synchronous version of within-main-loop already
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<jmercouris> Nice!
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<jasom> jmercouris: LPT uiop:quit is portable
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<jasom> jmercouris: that looks like the only thing :use :ccl was being used for
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<jmercouris> jasom: It was being used also for some objc- %null-ptr% things in cocoa/utility.lisp
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<jmercouris> jasom: I'm going to sleep for now too, thanks for your help!
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<jasom> hmm libwebkit2 is listed twice on list-foreign-libraries I wonder if that's causing issues
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* jasom has nEXT stable on ccl and sbcl now
<jasom> ccl *is* slower which is why it was failing. Also there is a bug upstream in cl-cffi-gtk
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<jasom> unsurprisingly you can't do (when foreign-ptr ...) as a null check
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<jasom> minion: memo for jmercouris: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/pull/56 <-- this fixes the ccl issue; I'll post my synchronous gtk solution later tonight
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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<throwprans> Hello
<throwprans> looking at this
<throwprans> How can I tell what does passing t means?
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<Shinmera> clhs glossary/stream designator
<throwprans> Okay, I understand this, I think I also understand the concept of designator
<throwprans> But from that doc, it just says nothing about what t is? or am i missing something obvious here?
<throwprans> how can I tell if t is not for true?
<jdz> clhs t
<throwprans> yeah, cool.
<throwprans> i am none the wiser.
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<throwprans> "The symbol t is also sometimes used for other purposes as well. For example, as the name of a class, as a designator (e.g., a stream designator) or as a special symbol for some syntactic reason (e.g., in case and typecase to label the otherwise-clause)."
<throwprans> Okay, I get that.
<throwprans> But how do I find out what it means in say some-function-you-never-head-of?
<jdz> throwprans: T is for "true", and functions that accept stream designators treat T as *terminal-io*.
<jdz> FORMAT is specified to accept a "stream designator".
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<Shinmera> throwprans: You look at the documentation
<beach> Shinmera: I think FORMAT is different in that it doesn't take ordinary stream designators.
<throwprans> Shinmera: Yeah, and looking at the FORMAT docs, I don't understand how to read it. -_-
<throwprans> That is my problem.
<throwprans> It says "destination---nil, t, a stream, or a string with a fill pointer."
<beach> clhs 22.3
<throwprans> For all that I care, passing t could be stderr.
<beach> "If destination is t, the output is sent to standard output."
<Shinmera> Ah, 22.3, that's the one
<jdz> Oh, bugger, indeed, FORMAT does not care about stream designators.
<beach> throwprans: See that link.
<Shinmera> I remembered that it was a special kind of stream designator
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<throwprans> beach: That is much better, how do I make sure I land on the "extend" version of docs and not here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm?
<beach> throwprans: The only way to find out what T might mean, is to read the documentation for the function that you are wondering about.
<jdz> That's why I was surprised to read T -> *terminal-io*, and not *standard-output*. Should pay more attention to my cognitive dissonance.
<Shinmera> throwprans: You click on the link to 22.3 there.
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<Shinmera> Alternatively, redirection services like l1sp.org also accept chapter numbers.
<throwprans> I was lost.
<beach> But now you are found.
<throwprans> 22.3 is something that I don't know. :P
<throwprans> I searched for PRINT hyperspec
<throwprans> and that was the result.
<throwprans> And so my confusion.
<beach> All cleared up now.
<throwprans> Yeah, now I know that from 22.3 I can go to the f_format doc, still not sure about the other way around
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<throwprans> I am asking because I might end up the same place again and again for different functions
<beach> Follow Shinmera's advice.
<Shinmera> "For details on how the control-string is interpreted, see Section 22.3 (Formatted Output).
<Shinmera> "
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<beach> throwprans: We will deal with that when you get there.
<throwprans> blimey for missing the obvious.
<throwprans> beach: Alright, thank you madam/sir.
<beach> throwprans: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is not meant to be documentation for the application programmer. For that, you are better off reading a book. The Common Lisp HyperSpec is a specification meant for people implementing Common Lisp systems.
<throwprans> I am reading the PCL.
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<Shinmera> Even despite that it is unfortunate that some of the links between pages are not well established
<throwprans> But I like to understand how stuff works, so like to jump to the man/reference/whatever page when I can.
<beach> The meaning of T should be documented in PCL.
<throwprans> It probably is.
<throwprans> Man is prone to forgetfulness.
<throwprans> back to lisping I go.
<throwprans> cheers everyone
<beach> Shinmera: I agree. Maybe CLUS can fix some of that.
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<Fare> That ASDF bug blows my mind. I have to page back in all the ASDF call graph in this ugly ugly part of ASDF.
<Fare> I believe the fix will be simple, though, when understood.
<Fare> It's about the notion of primary-system not being a matter of name (since there are misnamed secondary systems) but of what asd file you were loaded in.
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<hajovonta> hello
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<Younder> If you have a question, just state it.
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<beach> Hello hajovonta.
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<flip214b> there's an "libapache2-mod-lisp" package, does anybody have experience with it? is that better/faster than using mod_proxy and hunchentoot?
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<fe[nl]ix> flip214b: no, it's old and unmaintained
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<flip214b> fe[nl]ix: okay, so hunchentoot + mod_proxy is the recommended way?
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<flip214b> Xach: thanks, already knew that from the wikipedia page ;)
<Xach> ooukkei
<Xach> flip214b: i use nginx and proxying
<flip214b> thanks a lot for the quick answer!
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<mgsk> What's the "best" / "lisponic" way to do the equivalent of (in python) `for idx, elt in enumerate(list)'?
<mgsk> Something maybe like (loop :for elt :in list :for idx :in <something> ...) ?
<Xach> mgsk: (loop for i from 0 for elt in list do ...)
<mgsk> The colons are unnecessary?
<Xach> mgsk: they are not necessary. they are harmless and a matter of preference (mostly)
<mgsk> (mostly) how?
<Shinmera> The difference is where the symbols are interned.
<Shinmera> Which is mostly irrelevant nowadays as the symbols are few and the memory is plenty.
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<KZiemian> phoe: are you here?
<KZiemian> althrough Christmas are behind us
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<KZiemian> you can post your wish about CLUS
<KZiemian> here
<phoe> KZiemian: yes, I'm working at the moment though
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<phoe> still mostly doing things in my real life.
<KZiemian> phoe: not problem
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<JuanDaugherty> what is CLUS?
<KZiemian> phoe: I just want be sure, that you get my information
<JuanDaugherty> the spec I take it
<KZiemian> JuanDaugherty: this is one year old, partly outdated manifesto https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/blob/master/paper.pdf
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<KZiemian> phoe: and lack of respons sound worst than any message
<JuanDaugherty> i c
<KZiemian> JuanDaugherty: I can't tell you more or better than this paper
<JuanDaugherty> it's clear
<JuanDaugherty> ty
<KZiemian> JuanDaugherty: ty?
<JuanDaugherty> common abbreviation for thank you
<KZiemian> JuanDaugherty: oh, I don't know that abbrevation
<JuanDaugherty> np (no problem), your english is otherwise excellent
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<JuanDaugherty> (since correct spelling isn't expected in irc)
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<KZiemian> JuanDaugherty: so If you want some wish about it, create new issue
<KZiemian> if we don't find more acctive contributors we need at least few months to end prepering new framework (in broad sens of word) to CLUS
<JuanDaugherty> I'm good with the existing ANSI standard
<KZiemian> so if someone have a wish, better tell in now
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<francogrex> for debugging purposes do you use asdf:load-source-op or prepare-source-op?
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<fe[nl]ix> use SBCL, force high debug then compile-op :force t
<francogrex> yes but compile-op needs to be loaded afterwards
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<phoe> francogrex: use SBCL and SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY
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<francogrex> phoe and continue loading asdf as usual using for example: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :ALEXANDRIA) ?
<francogrex> right now I am doing (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-source-op :ALEXANDRIA)
<francogrex> but so it seems not the right way
<beach> Why do you insist on loading the source?
<francogrex> because I use step afterwards. if i load the compiled I won't be able to single step unless....
<fe[nl]ix> ... you use SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY
<beach> francogrex: Or make sure you always have a high DEBUG setting, like in your .sbclrc.
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<francogrex> (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) I have that. but still if i only load-op it won't single-step unless load-source-op. however with SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY maybe it will directly on the compiled allow me to single step
<francogrex> to try
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<oleo> #.(declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3))
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<oleo> )
<oleo> meh
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<oleo> #.(declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (inhibit-warnings 3)))
<oleo> maybe wrap an eval-when too....
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<francogrex> ok thanks
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<phoe> francogrex: OPTIMIZE settings can be overriddeb by the compiler
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<phoe> (locally (optimize (speed 0)) ...)
<phoe> and you can do nothing about it portably
<phoe> that's where RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY comes in, as it's stronger than individual OPTIMIZE declarations.
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<phoe> so you restrict it in .sbclrc, recompile everything once just to be sure, and boom, debug 3 everywhere.
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<francogrex> alright
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<beach> KZiemian: Here is another item for CLUS: On the dictionary page for FORMAT, it doesn't say what stream is designated when T is given. It would be good to mention that.
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<KZiemian> I put CLUS state of work on GitHub
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<pjb> mgsk: you should use cl-python and see how it would translate it to lisp!
<mgsk> pjb: _of course_ that's a thing
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<flip214> //--></script>
<flip214> is a bug during conversion...
<flip214> I've seen a few more similar HTML "injections", but a few of them matched the content or tone so I didn't wonder that much
<Xach> hmm
<flip214> not that it matters much, just a heads-up
<flip214> (as #:Erik is famous for not loving Perl, I can't resist the guess that this is some Perl-RE-blunder? ;)
<Xach> Maybe, but not on my end. The archive is generated by a Common Lisp program.
<Xach> I'll look into it
<flip214> thought as much ;)
<flip214> if you spend some time, please also fix the sort order (if you didn't already).
<flip214> thanks a lot!
<Xach> flip214: what is wrong with the sort order?
<flip214> the "next" link sometimes points to older posts.
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<flip214> same day, but wrong intra-day order.
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<Xach> That won't be fixed, sorry. That happens to a small number of articles with ambiguous date fields.
<flip214> the number is not that small... from memory, I'd guess I've seen some 30 or 40 mixed up posts, and I'm in Oct 2000 right now... but never mind, I can manage.
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<sigjuice> why (funcall (intern "INSTALL-REPL" :linedit)))) instead of simply (linedit:install-repl) ?
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<phoe> sigjuice: what code are you refering to?
<Bike> probably because that code is read before the linedit package is defined, e.g. in an asd file.
<sigjuice> the instructions here on how to setup linedit: http://cliki.net/linedit
<Bike> yep, i was right
<Bike> that whole form is read before linedit is actually required
<Bike> so if it was just (linedit:install-repl) sbcl would complain that there is no linedit package
<sigjuice> what if I manually do (ql:quickload :linedit) first?
<Bike> as long as "first" means "before the install-repl form is read" it will work.
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<sigjuice> the cliki page has (require :linedit) before (funcall (intern "INSTALL-REPL" :linedit) :wrap-current t)
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<sigjuice> are 'require' and 'ql:quickload' equivalent?
<phoe> not really
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<phoe> but REQUIRE should create the linedit package anyway
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<phoe> so you could (require :linedit) and then (linedit:install-repl)
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<phoe> as long as you don't do stuff like (progn (require :linedit) (linedit:install-repl)) because that will crash
<jmercouris> jasom: I saw your PR, thank you so much!
<minion> jmercouris, memo from jasom: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/pull/56 <-- this fixes the ccl issue; I'll post my synchronous gtk solution later tonight
<jasom> jmercouris: you were right, as a point of fact, that the ccl crash when not waiting was caused by an upstream bug
<jmercouris> jasom: Yeah, I had a strong feeling because at that point I was doing nothing non-standard with the code
<jmercouris> like it would crash on me just starting GTK, not doing any operations
<jmercouris> I wasn't sure how much was due to my VM setup, SSH X Forwarding, some other config etc
<jmercouris> jasom: I'm thinking of maybe using Fereda's version since he accepts PRS/ is updating it, what do you think?
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<jasom> jmercouris: sure, I just googled "cl-cffi-gtk" and made a PR
<jmercouris> I mean you are correct, that is the original author of it
<jmercouris> How do I know which version of a lib is on quicklisp?
<sigjuice> jmercouris you can take a look at the quicklisp-projects repo on github
<jmercouris> sigjuice: ok, cool, thank you!
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<jmercouris> Yeah, ql seems to be pointed to the crategus version
<sigjuice> phoe yes (progn (require :linedit) ...) does crash. why is that?
<mfiano> Xach: Do you have any means to test Quicklisp on CMUCL?
<phoe> sigjuice: let's talk about times in Lisp.
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<phoe> simplifying things, there's three times: read-time, compilation-time, execution time. There are some other times as well, but let's skip them for now.
<sigjuice> ok
<phoe> during read-time, Lisp reads your data from strings or streams and turns them into objects.
<phoe> it reads up "(progn (require :linedit)" properly.
<phoe> then it reads "linedit:install-repl", which means, find me a symbol named "INSTALL-REPL" in package named "LINEDIT".
<phoe> There's no such package at read-time.
<phoe> So Lisp signals an error.
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<phoe> It doesn't matter that you had (require :linedit) before. It was only read, but not evaluated.
<Xach> mfiano: quicklisp the software? or all quicklisp projects?
<mfiano> Xach: Quicklisp with one specific software
<phoe> when you split your input into (require :linedit) (linedit:install-repl), Lisp first reads the first form, compiles it, evaluates it.
<mfiano> I am hitting what appears to be a Quicklisp or ASDF issue with only 1 software
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<phoe> Then reads the second form - successfully this time, because the first form created the LINEDIT package and all the symbols in it - compiles it, evaluates it. No error.
<mfiano> and only on CMU
<phoe> Okay, I'm done. That's the very short and brief introduction to times in Lisp.
<phoe> *and most possibly incomplete and simplified
<Xach> mfiano: I don't have cmucl handy at the moment. but in my experience most software is not tested with cmucl and problems can sneak in.
<sigjuice> phoe: thanks a lot for taking the time.
<Xach> hmmm
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<Xach> mfiano: can you directly load defpackage-plus?
<jmercouris> phoe: Does this mean that during a package definition, all :use are evaluated?
<mfiano> Xach: I really haven't tried...this is a remote log from TravisCI that doesn't even get to the loading part.
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<Xach> ah
* Xach re-discovers that cmucl doesn't grok ~ in pathnames
<Xach> mfiano: well I can't reproduce. it loads fine locally with the latest cmucl.
<mfiano> How odd. Thanks for trying. I'll have to dig deeper
<phoe> jmercouris:
<phoe> clhs defpackage
<mfiano> Xach: out of curiousity, can you load gamebox-math.tests?
<jmercouris> interesting, so use does get executed it seems, unless I don't understand the docs
<phoe> executed? one second
<jmercouris> "The order in which they are executed is as follows" "2. :use."
<phoe> the clauses.
<phoe> not arguments of the clause.
<jmercouris> Ah, ok
<phoe> (defpackage foo (:use (concatenate 'string "COMMON-" "LISP"))) ;=> error, (CONCATENATE 'STRING "COMMON-" "LISP") does not designate a package
<phoe> so they are NOT evaluated.
<phoe> so you need to put package designators there, not something that evaluates to package designators.
<jmercouris> phoe: I wasn't doing that anyways, so I should be good :D
<jmercouris> So, anyways, my question stkill kind of stands
<jmercouris> if you have a defpackage, and you :use something, how does it know what symbols exist from that given :use?
<Bike> what is "it" here?
<Bike> use is just a list of packages, though. packages have a use-list. when you try to find a symbol in a package, it'll check the use list if it has to, so whatever symbols the used packages define are available, it's not set in stone at defpackage time or anything.
<Bike> i think.
<Shinmera> clhs use-package
<Shinmera> defpackage essentially just expands into an eval-when with all clauses and the respective package operations like export, import, use-package, etc.
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<jmercouris> Bike: "it" being the lisp system
<jmercouris> I've noticed it doesn't complain about symbols not defined if I :use them in a package
<Xach> jmercouris: that's because it's just using the symbols for the strings that are their names.
<Xach> (:use "FOO") and (:use foo) are (usually) equivalent
<Xach> FOO is not a variable reference because it's not evaluated normally. defpackage is a macro.
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<jmercouris> Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense
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<Xach> i wrote a simplified clone of the package system to understand it better and i am happy to answer questions!
<Xach> my hope was to write a better tutorial but i haven't done that yet :(
<jmercouris> There's always tomorrow :)
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<phoe> there, now CFFI's FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP supports advanced array options
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<phoe> such as specialization, displacement and adjustability.
<dmiles> oh good .. ok so i have this lisp impl i created.. and when i am at startup i have a flag that lets me intern and export new symbols like sys:%foo wi5thout giving an error that %foo does not exist in system .. in cases %foo did exist I export it if the initial bootstrap code used : instead of :: .. al this was of my own design .. but is there some defparameter or some other variable that i could
<dmiles> update or mimic?
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<dmiles> i didnt see anything in readtable or package
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<Bike> you can intern symbols whenever, dmiles. or do you mean that you want something like package locks, so that the user can't intern/etc symbols in certain system packages?
<dmiles> the sys::%foo i support fine.. it interns .. but i wanted a way that the user would already know how to export as well as intern
<dmiles> https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/prologfns.pl#L75 <- here is sone intenral code where i have symbols getting exported
<dmiles> i sporta expected it would have bene part of the readtable
<dmiles> as far as an "option"
<dmiles> even thugh it doent actualyl relate to readtable
<Bike> why would the readtable even be involved.
<dmiles> becasue thing like PACKAGE-READCASE are there
<Bike> You mean readtable-case?
<dmiles> *nod* right
<Bike> Which relates to how the reader treats case in symbols, something that intern and find-symbol are completely independent of?
<dmiles> right the interner would be independant of technically..
<dmiles> so i was more asking if anohter impl uses the same hack i do and what they did to support
<Bike> So there's no reason for the readtable to be involved.
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<Bike> I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Do you want the reader to see a symbol, intern, and export it?
<dmiles> correct.. other then the readtable actualyl intially deciding what the string will look like
<Bike> Yes the readtable controls how the READER gets a string that is passed to intern. Intern doesn't do any case conversions or anything.
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<dmiles> yes i'd like it so the user can tell the reader to see a symbol, intern, and export it
<Bike> Okay. I don't think anybody does that. Why can't you just specify the package definition with all the exported symbols earlier?
<dmiles> i can, and i can even have a flag in sys:*export-symbols*
<Bike> This specification wouldn't involve the reader at all.
<dmiles> but then i was thinking it be nice to not depend on packagfe locks to decide when i ignore that flag
<dmiles> i understand.. trhe readtable should have nothing to do with it
<dmiles> thats what i meant " <dmiles> right the interner would be independant of technically"
<Bike> This *export-symbols* flag is the one that tells the reader to export symbols sometimes, right? I'm saying you should not have such a flag and the reader should not export symbols.
<dmiles> and it was very ingnorant i should have mentined the readtable at all
<dmiles> the reader has nothing to do with it
<dmiles> why would you think it did?
<Bike> Okay, so what does *export-symbols* do?
<dmiles> it tens the intern code to also export
<dmiles> tells*
<Bike> There's no need for that either, then.
<dmiles> eveytime i make a defparameter like *export-symbols* i have to write docs on it.. i am hoping someone lese did this as well and i could use their docs
<Bike> If you got rid of the flag you wouldn't need to document it.
<dmiles> or if they had a more eleegant design
<dmiles> right
<Bike> So here's what I"m saying. Don't have any flag like that. If you want a symbol to be exported, just export it, like call the cl:export function on it, or if you have defpackage specify it in :export.
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<dmiles> so you are saying the better elegant design would be to yave it set up in defpackage .. right on
<dmiles> (that is the design that is already expected)
<jmercouris> jasom: The SBCL performance is so good!
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<jmercouris> I think I'll put it as the default in the install guide for Linux
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<dmiles> Bike: thank you btw
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<DeadTrickster> jasom, jmercouris lparallel just for promises?
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<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSmtbpk: varjag smurfrobot M โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSbplxkfh: spoken-tales knobo2 jmercouris โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSpnyhh: varjag Khisanth EvW โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILShgwojzwsj: fluke` Khisanth varjag โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSbfpqzei: jmercouris spoken-tales smurfrobot โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILShgfcdel: smurfrobot damke_ ym โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSxnpunnwys: M varjag fluke` โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
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<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSlaezhs: ym knobo2 EvW โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSnkmusqkan: jmercouris varjag EvW โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSkkmeadkan: varjag ym jmercouris โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
<Bookimp175> โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„ A BUSY MEETING IS GOING ON NOW IN #/JOIN ITS A JOINT MEETING WITH THE DISCUSSION OF RE-ENSLAVEMENT OF NIGGERS..MESSAGE CHRONO OR VAP0R FOR DETAILSatzvyau: ym Khisanth knobo2 โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„โ–„
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<jmercouris> DeadTrickster: Yea
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<jmercouris> Xach: What does mode change -o do?
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<Shinmera> Remove oper
<Xach> jmercouris: i was hoping to ban the spammer but I was too late.
<jmercouris> Ah, I see
<jmercouris> You know what that text really reminds me of, it sounds like the TempleOS guy
<jmercouris> He would have the knowledge and the desire to do something like that, maybe it is him
<dlowe> Let us just ignore it.
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<jmercouris> DeadTrickster: Did you get a chance to try the new GTK version? There's a couple features missing yet, like parenscript execution, and callback for "onload" of a webview, but is "kind-of" working
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<knobo> Is there any where I can follow the status of asdf stability/bugs?
<Shinmera> The asdf-devel mailing list
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<knobo> Anyone knows the status on the bugs in 3.3.1 that breakes many projects?
<Xach> knobo: There is no bug that breaks many projects.
<knobo> Ok, I have misunderstood then.
<knobo> Is it projects that has not been updated to the new asdf version, then?
<DeadTrickster> jmercouris, not yet, I will "soon" though. have you tried SBCL?
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<dmiles> for my auto-export thing (which i only use for the cold system right) now i swistched over the a primordial **BOOT-STATE**.. but of course the symbol (like before) have to trigger a PACKAGE-ERROR like "Symbol "XXXX" not found in the YYYY package"
<dmiles> (or the other error like Symbol "XXXX" is not found in YYYY package )
<dmiles> oops is not exported
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<jmercouris> DeadTrickster: Yeah, it works, I changed a bunch of things to make it work per jasoms instruction
<jmercouris> Well, not a "bunch" of things, more like 2 things
<Xach> knobo: yes
<DeadTrickster> awesome, little bit easier to produce executable (at least for me)
<jmercouris> DeadTrickster: What Distro are you running?
<DeadTrickster> I have ubuntu and freebsd now
<DeadTrickster> ubuntu is 17.04 and freebsd is current 12
<jmercouris> I see, so you know how to make a standalone executable or one that uses shared libraries?
<DeadTrickster> yes
<jmercouris> So you know both?
<DeadTrickster> yes )
<jmercouris> Ok, cool, would you mind producing the Ubuntu standalone for the next release?
<DeadTrickster> yes of course, when?
<jmercouris> If you don't want to do it, that's of course no problem, I am just asking if you can since I'm a BSD/MacOS user
<jmercouris> I hope to be done in 1-2 days with everything for an "alpha" for Linux
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<jmercouris> So, I'm not exactly 7 days like I said in the issue on github, but pretty close :D
<DeadTrickster> just ping me here or on github. see you
<jmercouris> Ok, will do, thanks
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<__rumbler31> jmercouris: you got a blog?
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<jmercouris> __rumbler31 No, just a personal website, john.mercouris.online
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<JuanDaugherty> blog - site - space , a bridge too far?
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<sigjuice> jmercouris the 'Memory pressure relief' messages are coming from here. https://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-webkit/webkit.git/tree/Source/WTF/wtf/MemoryPressureHandler.cpp?h=webkitgtk-2.18#n280
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<jmercouris> sigjuice: It doesn't look like anything unusual I guess, do you know under which condition this log is fired off?
<sigjuice> jmercouris not really, I'm afraid :/
<jmercouris> It's possible that it's just a standard debug message do to the way the process is launched
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<jmercouris> I'll take a look later into cl-webkit and see how the webview is actually instantiated
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<sigjuice> also, when the gtk window appears for the first time, it is really small
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<sigjuice> I guess that is how the gtk window is created. (make-instance 'gtk:gtk-window ... :default-width 250)
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<jmercouris> sigjuice: I didn't really notice that I'm on a tiling WM
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<jmercouris> I will fix that, thanks!
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<Ardx> hey
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<Ardx> Can anyone direct me to a lisp/scheme that can be used in a proven, robust and modern IDE? These include vscode, visual studio, intellij, atom. Not emacs, or dr racket
<_death> all of them can be used
<jmercouris> A IDE does not enable or prevent the usage of a language
<jmercouris> Also, VSCode, and Atom are not IDEs
<jmercouris> Visual Studio is used for .net mostly, and Intellij is used basically just for Java, so what are you asking for?
<Ardx> _death point me to a plugin with syntax highlighting, autocomplete, debugging, and error underlining?
<Ardx> In an IDE that has a file tree, can support multiple tabs, and has a working dark theme?
<jmercouris> Ardx: Emacs has all of those things
<_death> Ardx: I use emacs, sorry
<Ardx> holy moly
<Ardx> jmercouris that actually looks like something
<jmercouris> Ardx: Do you think it is just one huge coincidence that we are mostly using Emacs?
<Ardx> I just hate emacs tbh, tried to use it with clojure for ages and hate all the keyboard commands i need to remember
<Ardx> Use it if you want, I just want to write lisp in a modern tool
<jmercouris> There are no keyboard commands you have to remember, if you have vanilla emacs, you can type into it with normal keys, and there is even a menu bar with File-> Save, etc
<jmercouris> What makes Emacs not modern?
<jmercouris> The latest release of Emacs was within the past year, and why does modern equate to better?
<Ardx> things like buffers, and ctrl+c/v not being copy paste
<jmercouris> Ardx: Except for that Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V can be made as copy/paste keys, and there are Windows versions that have that built in by default
<aeth> Emacs is a lot more modern when (1) you turn off tool-bar-mode and menu-bar-mode and (2) you give it a dark theme and (3) you shrink the font
<jmercouris> Buffers are effectively tabs
<aeth> you also need to use the graphical, not in-terminal emacs
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<Ardx> I like having drag drop panes that show me file tree, document tabs, code, menu with debugging options etc
<_death> https://i.imgur.com/YWYcb3a.png emacs is a modern os
<jmercouris> Ardx: You haven't really described anything Emacs can't do
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<Ardx> _death yeah thats the uglist thing Ive ever seen
<jmercouris> Ardx: If you just don't feel like learning it, that's fine, but you can't argue that emacs is less capable
<Ardx> Its not just about function
<Ardx> look at vscode/subline/atom/visual studio/intellij etc all have a similiar layout
<Ardx> completely departed from emacs
<jmercouris> Ardx: Does that mean they are all correct?
<_death> Ardx: if a baby sees his mother first, she's also the ugliest thing yet
<jmercouris> That's a fallacy
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<Ardx> not here to learn keyboard shortcuts and how to hide everything away, just want to edit lisp in a regular enviroment that I work in all day too
<Ardx> to that end, thanks for the atom plugin link will check it out!
<jmercouris> Ardx: So you are saying you are not interested in becoming better/faster?
<Ardx> not sure where this is going now
<jmercouris> Ardx: Not all interfaces have to be so strange looking: https://imgur.com/a/LhCA6
<Ardx> lol
<jmercouris> Ardx: I'm just suggesting keep an open mind, it is not a coincidence that the best developers are using heavily modified emacs and vi
<Ardx> how do i set breakpoints in that?
<jmercouris> I have removed the gutters on mine, but normally you can double click
<__rumbler31> don't you click on the line on the margin to set breakpoints?
<Ardx> best devs?? lisp isnt used anywhere?
<jmercouris> I have it set to something like C-b b
<Ardx> Different minds I guess, I prefer my IDE as visual as possible
<jmercouris> Ardx: The inventor of ruby used emacs, and credits a lot his success to that
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<__rumbler31> Ardx: what do you normally do?
<Ardx> Man I know a lot of ruby devs that hate the lang
<jmercouris> Ardx: I would say you rather prefer your editor as simple as possible, and making all decisions for you, and that's fine, but you won't score any points by criticizing emacs (unless of course your criticisms are accurate)
<Ardx> c# + visual studio in my day job. Along with sql, js, web frontend etc
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<aeth> Ardx: The problem is that every language that has an IDE has a different best IDE. And IDEs make a huge difference. C# in Emacs isn't a good experience, just like Common Lisp in Visual Studio isn't a good experience. The recommended IDE for CL is SLIME, which does many cool things. There are ports of SLIME outside of Emacs (e.g. vim), but they're not as featureful at the moment.
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<aeth> Emacs is both a text editor and a platform, and it happens to be the platform for the Common Lisp IDE.
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<Ardx> all languages have the same core concepts though: a set of files, code to syntax highlight, autocompletion on type, error underlining, a repl, and a compilation step
<rme> And that is, IMO, somewhat unfortunate. Emacs and SLIME do a lot, but you can write CL using any tool you like.
<Ardx> Thats why things like the language service exist, and how a vscode/sublime can suport a lot of different languages
<aeth> Ardx: Yes, all languages have the same core concepts, but they all tend to have a different "best" IDE. That's definitely unfortunate.
<rme> But your editor has to know how to indent CL properly.
<Ardx> ^ and a formatter
<rme> practically speaking, that is.
<aeth> Ardx: There is a server that CL can speak, used by SLIME and other IDEs. It's called swank. https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank.lisp
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<_death> Ardx: this is wrong, and if you want to learn why, you need to suspend your disbelief and pick the environment that tends to be used by practitioners of a language
<aeth> Ardx: The problem is that people hav eto support swank, and I don't think Microsoft (creators of Visual Studio) have an interest in CL.
<aeth> s/hav eto/have to/
<Ardx> Already said Ive tried emacs, was for quite a while too
<aeth> CL is a fairly unique language, so converting it to something designed for a C# or Java workflow is probably not going to work. Common Lisp is unlike almost every other language because it's based on an interactive image. Smalltalk is also like that, and Smalltalk is the only other language I know like that.
<Ardx> just doesnt live up to other editors like vs
<aeth> Smalltalk is probably the only language more interactive than CL (it did it first, and it did it better)
<jmercouris> Ardx: How long did you use Emacs?
<Ardx> 3-4 months
<jmercouris> Ardx: What did you use it for? What does your configuration look like?
<jmercouris> Ardx: Did you try something like spacemacs? That seems to cater to the Atom type crowd
<jmercouris> Ardx: http://spacemacs.org/
<jmercouris> You can't tell me the aesthetics of that look bad, though I don't even see why that should be an issue
<Ardx> Yeah thats the one I used
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<jmercouris> At the end of the day, the choice is yours, but I cannot in good conscience reccommend another platform/editor
<Ardx> Keyboard shortcuts for every little thing
<jmercouris> Yeah buddy, we aren't programming with Wacom tablets believe it or not
<Ardx> So you cant use a mouse?
<_death> why would a programmer want to use a mouse
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<jmercouris> Why should I? Am I programming in scratch?
<cess11> rodents are slow
<p_l> Ardx: FWIW, I seem to recall some work for VSCode
<p_l> not sure how current it is
<random-nick> if you don't like keyboard shortcuts then you can always execute a command by name using M-x
<_death> do you use an onscreen keyboard
<p_l> Also, not sure what's the level of structural editing for VSCode
<Ardx> Heres the modern approach: Have menus , buttons etc interactive things. Also allow keyboard shortcuts. voila
<Ardx> random-nick so I have to type more things? lol
<jmercouris> Ardx: That's just the thing though, emacs DOES come with a menu bar and buttons if you want
<p_l> Ardx: Emacs had interactive menus since I first booted it
<Ardx> p_l sadly everything seems to be outdated
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<random-nick> Ardx: well, that seems to be what you want, since using the mouse is just extra work
<jmercouris> Ardx: What exactly is outdated?
<jmercouris> I'm at a loss as to whether you are trolling or not, if you are, you did an excellent job, because this whole time I've been taking you seriously :D
<p_l> Ardx: most editors don't provide enough stuff to implement comparable interfaces, or just require too much work (Eclipse)
<phoe> this discussion sounds like #lispcafe
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<p_l> Ardx: that said, I do seem to recall some pretty recent Atom and VSCode integration work
<phoe> since it's about if emacs is outdated or not, and certainly doesn't concern itself directly with Common Lisp
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<jmercouris> phoe: Well, the conversation is about the best Lisp Editor, it's ALMOST offtopic, but not quite
<aeth> The real problem Common Lisp has is that its unique characteristics (shared with one of its main inspirations, Smalltalk) really works best with its own enviornment. And that environment doesn't exist. If you've looked into Smalltalks, you've probably noticed that they tend to come with IDEs because that's a big part of the Smalltalk experience. GNU Emacs is old, and it uses Emacs Lisp, which is basically Lisp stepping in a time machine bac
<aeth> Lisp stepping in a time machine back 30+ years. But it's close enough, so people use it.
<cess11> Ardx: try www.picolisp.com.
<cess11> no need for an IDE, it's too small for those
<aeth> But if you really get used to the Emacs+SLIME workflow, it provides a glimpse into what could have been, if there was more development effort in that direction. An experience you don't really get elsewhere, even though GNU Emacs really isn't perfect
<Ardx> no trolling hah
<Ardx> Just because emacs come with buttons doesnt make it better, though tbf spacemacs seemed to hide them from me too
<jmercouris> aeth: Have you seen: https://github.com/cxxxr/lem?
<_death> aeth: this is also wrong.. realize that Emacs Lisp is developed and gains more features every day, unlike Common Lisp which is stable and standardized.. there are IDEs for Common Lisp, like LispWorks and Allegro.. (there was that Cusp thingy some years ago)
<aeth> _death: IDEs that cost hundreds/thousands of dollars in 2017 might as well be considered non-existant for most people.
<_death> aeth: he can get the free version to learn if he doesn't want to use emacs
<__rumbler31> tbf the money spent on developing vs is enormous, and the whole vs ecosystem does cost thousands to truly leverage
<aeth> _death: Emacs Lisp was made intentionally archaic, e.g. dynamic scoping. RMS was an old Lisper. He was aware of the future of Lisp and rejected it. Emacs Lisp still gains features because it's so far behind Common Lisp and Scheme.
<cess11> pretty sure Allegro has a express version
<_death> aeth: if his aim is to actually learn lisp, which is not sufficiently proved imho
<Ardx> have you tried the free versio of lispworks?
<__rumbler31> ms just subsidizes the costs of giving away a free version of their editor since they need to provide a polished experience in order to drive users/devs to their platform
<Ardx> This sums it up: "There is a time limit of 5 hours for each session, after which LispWorks Personal exits, possibly without saving "
<__rumbler31> there is no such thing for lisp, so allegro/LW ides for a couple hundred bucks seem out of place
<_death> aeth: you know you can enable lexical scoping by default nowadays, right?
<aeth> __rumbler31: Microsoft killed a lot of markets like the commercial web browser market and the commercial IDE market (although the latter has somewhat made a comeback in recent years).
<__rumbler31> oh I know! I'm not saying its a good thing
<__rumbler31> Ardx: the value proposition for emacs is thus: this tool might be clunky at first, but its so configurable that you end up making a custom fit glove over the course of your career
<_death> Ardx: seems workable for learning the language
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<aeth> _death: Afaik, Emacs Lisp can now sort of emulate Common Lisp, as quite possibly the slowest Common Lisp implementation out there, because it's emulating Common Lisp.
<_death> Ardx: if you're allergic to the free, unlimited, hackable and customizable lisp env..
<__rumbler31> since we edit text as a regular part of our work, once you can create modes that distill your editing down to your other mental models (like browsing between forms), you get to leverage your knowledge in a new domain, which is powerful
<aeth> _death: So, all flaws are overcome with patches and turing completeness over time.
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<aeth> __rumbler31: Emacs is a good example of why defaults matter. Default Emacs is terrible, but every Emacs user doesn't realize this because Emacs users have a mandatory 100+ line .emacs file and, these days, probably at least a dozen packages from M-x package-list-packages
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<jasom> Ardx: SLIME is a proven, robust and nodern IDE
<__rumbler31> I imagine one uses menus to discover what an interface can do. If it never changes, eventually the most common commands will be memorized as key combinations anyways. So imagine that your interface no longer EVER changes (like emacs) what you are left with after several years of use is exactly the environment you need
<_death> aeth: not claiming it's more performant, or that it should be used for general purpose programming.. just that it's not stuck in the past as you described it
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<aeth> __rumbler31: Emacs is definitely not designed for a good first impression, though
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<jmercouris> They can't just change the defaults though without breaking everyone's config
<aeth> _death: It's still stuck in the past. It's more modern features bolted onto a Lisp that was outdated at the start in its design.
<jmercouris> So they are kind of locked in
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<jmercouris> Unless they introduce some sort of "compatibility" layer or something I don't know
<__rumbler31> aeth: yes, although I would say that sometimes with long enough timelines, getting the defaults right can be hard. IIR the most popular editing constructs like copy/paste existed in emacs and vi before they became known as copy and paste and associated with C-v. C-c etc
<_death> aeth: fine.. believe what you want.. me, I try to learn from the changes people (Lisp hackers, after all) make to it..
<aeth> _death: All I know is that the style of CL I write is essentially impossible in Emacs Lisp, and even if it isn't, it wouldn't be fast at all.
<aeth> And Emacs Lisp has had decades to catch up at this point.
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<jasom> Ardx: and by that I mean 80% of why I use common lisp over other tools is that SLIME is the best development environment I've ever used, and lighttyears ahead of any freely available one.
<_death> aeth: may want to read the current elisp manual sometime then
<aeth> jmercouris: That's what they're doing. They're switching everything over to Guile (???) with a compatibility layer. Which is strange since elisp is almost CL-compatible and GNU has not one, but two CLs.
<__rumbler31> to finish my point, your emacs will never change. VS will change, while that timeline is covered in years, I don't care to keep chasing down where vs decided to hide that feature under whatever menu.
<aeth> (GNU also has two other Schemes: Kawa and MIT)
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<aeth> I suspect if Emacs picked CL, they could have made the transition 10+ years ago instead of still having a work-in-progress Guile port.
<jmercouris> aeth: Yeah, the day Guile arrives, pigs will fly
<aeth> jmercouris: I believe I read an FSF or GNU article about how Guile was going to become the standard GNU scripting language... and that article was from the 90s.
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<aeth> The whole implementation-in-C, scripting-in-interpreted-Lisp approach is flawed imo. Just writing the whole thing in SBCL will probably as a whole be faster than mixing very fast with slow.
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<aeth> Especially if it's as script-driven as Emacs.
<jasom> is gnucash the only program that adopted it wholesale?
<_death> sure, that's one thing that separates the boy languages from the men languages.. the former are written in some other language..
<aeth> jasom: There are a few places. GIMP maybe?
<drdo> aeth: it very much is
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<p_l> Ardx: https://atom.io/packages/atom-slime might be of interest to you, it's afaik "still usable"
<drdo> And it is especially bad when they invent their own crappy "scripting language"
<jasom> to be fair, IMO cmucl was not ready for primetime on commodity hardware of the 90s
<jasom> and sbcl didn't exist
<jasom> and clisp was not a performance demon
<p_l> Emacs current form predates clisp
<aeth> jasom: Yeah. We finally have the fast implementations and fast hardware to do things properly today. A lot of strange decisions made 30 years ago were for performance issues that no longer matter, but we're stuck with those decisions, unfortunately.
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<p_l> aeth: a bit of the problem is that GNU Emacs harks in its history to before Common Lisp and evolved separately
<p_l> as for Guile extensions
<_death> jasom: if rms wanted to pick the CL route, a GNU CL would've been developed.. gcl/clisp came afterwards
<p_l> GNU make is one of the programs that adopted it
<jasom> p_l: GNU Emacs was post CLtL1, right?
<aeth> Yeah, Emacs's history goes back a long way. GNU Emacs's tutorial is actually mostly compatible with the tutorial for the original (not in Lisp) Emacs. I don't know if the tutorial was modified from the original Emacs or backported from GNU Emacs with minor changes made. https://github.com/PDP-10/its/blob/master/src/emacs/teach.1
<random-nick> also, RMS prefers Scheme to CL
<p_l> jasom: its lisp started before CLtL1
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<p_l> jasom: the GNU branding might have happened after CLtL1, but the implementation is older
<_death> random-nick: why do you think that?
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<jasom> And CLISP is older than Guile, but was not licensed under GPL until about the same time that Guile was released
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<aeth> Early GNU Emacs is still inferior to Lisp Machine Lisp, though. And RMS was aware of that. His name is on the later manuals.
<p_l> CLISP is one of the old cases of "drive-by GPL viral attack" ;)
<aeth> s/GNU Emacs/Emacs Lisp/
<jasom> Don't link with readline, or your entire program becomes a derivitive work of readline...
<p_l> GNU Emacs harks back to 1981 and Gosling Emacs
<jasom> oh, CLtL was 1984, that's later than I thought
<p_l> jasom: it's interpretation that is arguably thrown out today (case in point: Illumos and KVM, Linux and AFS/ZFS)
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<random-nick> _death: I am not sure where I've heard that, but you can always ask him about that using email
<_death> random-nick: sure.. I've not seen any evidence for that though
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<random-nick> well, you can send a mail to rms@gnu.org and he will probably respond in up to 2 days
<_death> random-nick: it's not that important to me ;)
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<Ardx> well the atom lisp plugin is super nice, uses slime in the background too so finally I have all the features of a modern IDE with the power of lisp language. Sweet
<Ardx> ciao
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<Shinmera> All of the features, such as using a tonne of memory :^)
<_death> a javascript editor..
<aeth> Well, to be fair, Emacs bloated 10x since the "Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping" joke. I now open a fresh emacs to 81.5 MB RAM usage.
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<aeth> So much bloat!
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<p_l> ~240 MB here used by emacs
<aeth> yeah, it's easy to get it above 200
<p_l> 3 days, 6 hours
<_death> just think, when you want to hack your own package or the editor's or someone else's, you need to write javascript :(
<Shinmera> Atom uses more than that memory just after starting up and not doing anything.
<Shinmera> Fresh instance, around 400MB RES.
<Shinmera> Anyway, sorry for the o/t
<aeth> 400 seems pretty low for what it is
<aeth> What do Common Lisp editors start at? SBCL should give it about 95 to start with.
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<aeth> (And, yes, other Common Lisps will be better with RAM)
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<makomo> jmercouris: Ardx: Did you try something like spacemacs? That seems to cater to the Atom type crowd
<makomo> what makes you say so?
<makomo> i'm using spacemacs myself and don't like atom at all :D
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<p_l> makomo: he quit, and apparently used spacemacs
<p_l> gave him atom-slime
<p_l> Spacemacs caters more to ViM/Mac crowd :)
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<makomo> p_l: i know Ardx quit, but i was replying to jmercouris who is still here
<makomo> p_l: i agree with the vim part, not sure about the mac part :D
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<p_l> makomo: the mac keyboard seems to favour vimmers :P
<makomo> meh, i don't like mac/apple either so :-)
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<makomo> but i do like modal editing/vim's keybinds
<makomo> it's an amazing thing tbh, one of the greatest contributions vim (vi) made
<makomo> i really like the philosophy of having the keybinds of vim and extensibility of emacs
<makomo> i.e. combine both of the two editors' best features to get something amazing
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<jmercouris> makomo: I was saying the people who like a pre-built config would be more likely to be atom users
<jmercouris> makomo: Nothing wrong with evil mode, but spacemacs makes 100% of decisions for you, and I find that people who use spacemacs don't deviate from that a lot, it's not a bad thing, it's just a different way of doing things
<p_l> jmercouris: it's less "100% of decisions" and more "customizing spacemacs is an extra level of work"
<p_l> and more related to how, for example, most people don't change basic emacs keybinds either
<jmercouris> Well, I try not to change the core ones, I just add to them so that I can still use vanilla emacs
<p_l> even when they have PDF-generating literate configs like my old one
<jmercouris> nothing terrible about c-n, c-p, c-x c-f, though I'll usually use s-f for projectile instead etc
<p_l> jmercouris: so on top of already complex beast (Emacs) you add essentially a whole application (spacemacs) which has its own approach to configuration logic
<p_l> not many people share their modifications yet
<jmercouris> yeah the "layers" idea, idk, not sure that was really necessary
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<p_l> well, I find it quite interesting, just didn't get around to setting myself up, because the defaults support CL and Org quite well
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<Shinmera> I'm still waiting on people to give feedback on Portacle's key set and help document.
<Shinmera> Haven't heard a squeak about that from anyone
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