<jasom>
mason: b-b-i provides the primitives that you can build your library off of, but you'll have to create a buffer for each socket and fill them in as you go, then add the logic for detecting newlines
<mason>
jasom: Yeah, that seems reasonable.
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<asarch>
In: (with-open-file (a #p"/etc/passwd") (read-line a)), what is #p?
<pjb>
asarch: it's a dispatching reader macro.
<pjb>
asarch: read chapter 2.
<asarch>
What is the equivalent for while (feof(fp) != NULL) {...} from C?
<pjb>
Note, you can always save the detection of eof into some hash-table and write a feof function to get it, if you want to reproduce the bugs of C…
<pjb>
asarch: alternatively, in the case of file-stream, you can test (= (file-position stream) (file-length stream)).
<asarch>
Ok
* asarch
takes notes...
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<pjb>
asarch: but similarly after this test of file-length, it may change, so if the test is false, it doesn't mean you will be able to read anything. If it returns true, it doesn't mean you won't be able to read something.
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<pierpa>
just tell him what he probably is looking for? asarch, probably you want: (loop for line = (read-line in nil nil) while line do ...)
<pjb>
pierpa: fish
<pierpa>
yeah, but up until a certain point :)
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<asarch>
Wow! That is fascinating :-)
<pierpa>
most input functions can either signal a condition OR return nil on end of file
<pierpa>
that's what the extra arguments to read-line are doing
<pjb>
asarch: so read-line returns usually a string, so returning NIL when eof is discriminating.
<pjb>
asarch: however, read can read nil and return it too.
<pjb>
asarch: there's one object at hand that read cannot read: the stream itself!
<pjb>
(loop for object = (read stream nil stream) until (eql stream object) do …)
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<pierpa>
right. Thanks pjb. I must correct myself: most input functions can either signal a condition or return a value you choose on end of file.
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<asarch>
Question: if Common Lisp is not a multi-threating environment per se, why the "feof checks it too late, the file might have grown since!" condition?
<pillton>
You are assuming that there is only one process running at any given moment.
<pjb>
asarch: the operating system is a multi-task, multi-user operating system.
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<asarch>
But OS and CL are two different entities, right?
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<pjb>
Yes, and files are common entities.
<pjb>
This is because the OS and CL are different entities that you cannot know when the file will grow (or shrink).
<asarch>
pierpa, I just looking for something a la C: while (feof(fp) != NULL) {fscanf(fp, "%s", buffer); printf("%s", buffer);}
<pjb>
asarch: this C code is wrong! It's buggy!
<asarch>
I know, I know
<pjb>
It should be written: while(EOF!=fscanf(fp,"%s",buffer)){printf("%s",buffer);}
<pjb>
which is the equivalent of the above LOOP.
<asarch>
Yeah! \o/
<pjb>
asarch: reproducing C bugs in CL will require more work; as I explained above, you can define a feof function, by memorizing the result of the last read operation for each stream!
<pjb>
asarch: read man feof and try to understand what that means!
<pjb>
Notice that C doesn't have multiple values, conditions, or types associated to objects. This is so defectuous! This is why the function fread() cannot distinguish between end-of-file and error! Hence the need to store the eof status in the stream record, and retrieve or clear it with feof and clearerr.
<asarch>
:'-(
<asarch>
Ok
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<pjb>
asarch: but this let you forget that those are not synchronous operations! You're just accessing a memorized flag in a structure.
<pjb>
The main problem of lispers, is that C programmers don't know the first thing about C…
<pjb>
After that, there will be people who don't believe in God…
<asarch>
The first thing of C? What is that?
<pjb>
C programmers don't know anything about C. They're full of wrong ideas about C.
<pjb>
asarch: for example, that you don't write a while(!feof(fp)) loop. You're a lame C programmer.
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<asarch>
I AM!!!
<asarch>
Of course I am
<asarch>
That's why I am here
<asarch>
When I was learning JavaScript, I asked if there was a shell who could understand JavaScript commands directly
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<asarch>
However, they told me that it was not possible because the common and useful shell constructs like piping and redirection would conflict with JavaScript constructs
<pjb>
Like eshell, it would be perfectly possible.
<asarch>
That's great
<asarch>
The language defines what we can and what we cannot to think
<asarch>
Just like Paul Graham says in his book
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<asarch>
BRB I need to change the LAN connection
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<asarch>
BTW What is "com.informatimago.common-lisp.unix.passwd"? A news site?
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<pjb>
asarch: this is #lisp, it's a package!
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<phoe>
What is the CL way of telling emacs how to highlight syntax?
<phoe>
I have a DEFINE-FOO macro that has a &body as its last argument. I need to tell it that the first string of that &body is a docstring and should be highlighted as such, not as an usual string.
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<Devon>
phoe: Good question - I only know the EL way.
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<schweers>
phoe: you have a separate face for docstrings?
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<dmiles>
lets say my lisp reader is reader a symbol had just read.. "#:A" . Are these the only characters that will stop reading the symbol? #\; #\, #\( #\) #\' #\` #\" #\: ?
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<schweers>
dmiles: if I understand your question correctly, every terminating macro character will terminate (hence the name) reading the symbol (or number)
<dmiles>
schweers: can you give my an example of a terminating macro character?
<schweers>
they are listed somewhere in the hyperspec, I’m looking for the page right now, give me a sec
<schweers>
look for characters which are terminating macro characters
<dmiles>
thank you
<schweers>
keep in mind that we are talking about standard syntax, you may change the readtable to include other terminating macro characters
<schweers>
you’re welcome
<dmiles>
also next is there a lisp reader written in lisp somewhere.. the reader i implemented is too permissive .. for example I dont keep count of backquote level when reading commas
<dmiles>
+ ?
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<schweers>
if I recall correctly, the sbcl has a reader written in lisp
<schweers>
yep, it is
<dmiles>
nice, thank you.. i am surprised
<Shinmera>
beach has a portable reader, if I remember correctly.
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<schweers>
I was too, I still don’t really understand how that works
<Shinmera>
schweers: What do you mean? The reader is just an algorithm. You can implement it in any language.
<dmiles>
awesome to even
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<schweers>
Shinmera: I don’t know a lot about bootstrapping, but then I remembered that one needs a working CL environment to build sbcl, so it doesn’t seem that unusual anymore.
<dmiles>
i i was suprised at sbcl is that impls end up doing a minimalistic reader in their lnaugage (say C) then if they start to writ e alisp reader in Lisp.. their C code gets jealous and starts to take over until the lisp becomes busywork
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<dmiles>
why i*
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<dmiles>
so they weight the cost benefits of having two codebases.. one lame one in C they cant delete (and they forever have to improve) .. vs a *overly* fantastic one im Lisp
<schweers>
if I recall correctly in sbcl only parts of the runtime are written in C.
<dmiles>
so glad beach made a fantastic one :)
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<dmiles>
hrrm sbcl might work to if i locate all the +...+ constants
<dmiles>
well most are in readtable.lisp .. ok .. thjis will work to
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<scymtym_>
Shinmera: the eclector thing is very much work-in-progress, though
<Shinmera>
scymtym_: You're working with him on it, right?
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<scymtym_>
yes
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<dmiles>
well my current reader is doing pretty well... it will probly be a week to two months before i really need to borrow a reader in lisp
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<beach>
scymtym_: It looks like it is close to being usable. I certainly intend to start using it for reading SICL code.
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<scymtym_>
beach: it should definitely be fine (strictly speaking "no worse than") for that particular case since it still mostly identical to the code it is replacing. i was referring to FIXMEs for not-yet-defined condition types, recently discovered (small) bugs and the like with that statement
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<beach>
scymtym__: Sure, I understand that it is not completely finished, but it is definitely getting there.
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<scymtym__>
beach: sure
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<pfdietz>
dmiles: SBCL doesn't have to have a reader written in C, any more than a C compiler needs to have a lexer/parser written in assembler.
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<dmiles>
pfdietz: to read SBCL's lisp reader into SBCL i was assuming there was a less functioning primordial reader
<dmiles>
(though I supposed another lisp impl can build SBCL in this case)
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<Bike>
sbcl is built using another lisp, yes.
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<pfdietz>
And gcc is written in C and compiled with a C compiler. The first C compiler written by Dennis Ritchie was in PDP-11 assembler though.
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<beach>
It is very strange to me that so many people assume that a Common Lisp system must be (at least partially) written in some other language.
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<makomo>
i would say that's just because self-hosting is a weird concept at first
<beach>
makomo: So you are saying that, if asked, these people don't think that C compilers are written in C?
<makomo>
well, not quite, because many of them never ask themselves that question
<makomo>
they often treat compilers as "a thing you download and use to make programs"
<makomo>
they don't see the "recursive" nature
<beach>
Yes, I see what you mean.
<makomo>
i always like to think about what would happen if you had the ability to destroy all compilers for high-level languages in an instant
<makomo>
we would all have to start all over again
<makomo>
the same would happen if you destroyed all of the robots in factories or something like that
<makomo>
like, destroying all of the tools we use today to make products
<makomo>
we would have to go back and redo everything
<makomo>
it's a very interesting concept, because if you go deep enough, *someone* had to make the first version from something that was more primitive
<makomo>
it's a long chain of people standing on the shoulders of others :-)
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<JuanDaugherty>
the long standing preference is to write the compiler for x in x
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<beach>
It is the standard way of showing that the language is expressive.
<JuanDaugherty>
maybe with a core bootstrap in something else, e.g. the vm in smalltalk being in machine lang
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<JuanDaugherty>
long standing meaning dating to maybe the early 70s
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<JuanDaugherty>
(or sixties if you include burroughs)
<lieven>
including the Realia COBOL compiler written in COBOL :)
<JuanDaugherty>
expressiveness and monolothic confidence in function
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<JuanDaugherty>
more COBOL use now than i would have thought
<dmiles>
do others think that makomo is correct.. we'd have to start from scratch with lisp if there was not already a lisp impl?
<makomo>
dmiles: well how else would you do it? the initial lisp compiler was surely written in something that was not lisp, because lisp didn't exist until that moment :-)
<makomo>
same with any other language
<beach>
What do you mean by "start from scratch"? You would obviously have to write the first Lisp system in some other language.
<JuanDaugherty>
unless you have lisp hardware
<dmiles>
yes i agree, i thought maybe beach say it differntly
<jackdaniel>
"starting from scratch" is a bold statement - you have all ideas around (even the standard)
<dmiles>
say/saw
<jackdaniel>
so it is a "mere" question of implementing it
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<makomo>
when you get to the bottom of that thought, someone somewhere implemented the first program with a few electrodes :D
<jackdaniel>
while starting of scratch would be also thinking on how this should be specified
<dmiles>
well i just mean we have everything of all the lisp code and spec yet we didnt have lisp impl in any language other than lisp
<makomo>
just flipping bits on his own
<JuanDaugherty>
the first 'programs' were manual switch settings
<makomo>
so if you destroyed everything we had now, we would have to redo that whole process again
<makomo>
idk, but that thought was also pretty "scary" to me
<makomo>
always*
<jackdaniel>
makomo: that's not as terrifying, since you have all the design all over the place, you may implement from scratch only n-1 step to bootstrap step n
<jackdaniel>
while in "history" it is more a process of development supporting ideas loop
<lieven>
let me give you an even better one. If the electricity grid over a big enough area goes down, getting it up again would be a major problem.
<makomo>
jackdaniel: well, i guess that would depend on how much you destroyed :-D
<makomo>
lieven: lol yeah, pretty much
<dmiles>
or like when the computer chip factory burned down in singapore iot took us 5 years before we could buy ram again
<wingodboleash>
actually, maybe in the process of reinventing the wheel somebody will find out that we've been doing it all wrong since the very beginning and so maybe it'll be for the better if everything gets destroyed...
<wingodboleash>
just sayin
<JuanDaugherty>
i.e. the first electronic ones were, the jackard looms were punched hole programs but not computers
<JuanDaugherty>
*jacquard
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<wingodboleash>
on a sidenote, why does it seem to me that i'm gonna have to write my own custom implementation of lisp to be truly satisfied with the language ? Seems to me that there's a sort of a law for lisp where everyone feels this at some point, and those who actually come up with a new implementation just increase the entropy of the scheme universe ! And then it becomes harder for a beginner to choose which dialect to choose and the beginner gets the same
<wingodboleash>
feeling ! Its an infinite loop !
<wingodboleash>
*lisp universe
* JuanDaugherty
doesn't feel that at all, prefers to build on what is
<schweers>
dunno, I’m pretty happy with SBCL
<JuanDaugherty>
although I do feel it at the systems/OS level
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<dmiles>
i am making my impl because i dont think anyone has ever built common lisp on prolog before
<beach>
wingodboleash: I take it you mean a new language as opposed to a new implementation of an existing language? That is not a problem, because new languages usually don't become widely used.
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<JuanDaugherty>
is a thing not having been done in and of itself a reason to do it?
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<wingodboleash>
yeah... like theres a feeling that i want to create a dialect of lisp that is taylored to my use... probably what lisp is most useful for ?
<dmiles>
JuanDaugherty: sometimes :P
<JuanDaugherty>
:)
<wingodboleash>
JuanDaugherty: Maybe :P
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<Shinmera>
I'm a practical person, so I really don't see the use in creating yet another language for which you'll have to waste decades upon decades until you're at a point where you have enough libraries to be actually productive.
<JuanDaugherty>
well if ur implementing cl, once you have an impl ... .
<Shinmera>
We already have several implementations, why would you make another
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<wingodboleash>
Im a newbie
<JuanDaugherty>
just because apparently
<wingodboleash>
i've been wanting to learn lisp for a long time
<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: That's where my practicality comes in
<Shinmera>
err, JuanDaugherty
<wingodboleash>
but i never get to it because of the huge lisp world
<dmiles>
JuanDaugherty: what Shinmera saiid is the reason I have to build my impl.. Imagine how many ytears it would take get all the lisp libraries for prolog?
<Shinmera>
wingodboleash: Well fortunately for you this channel is only about Common Lisp, and that world is just one language.
<wingodboleash>
i yeah
<jackdaniel>
dmiles: use (and probably first fix) poplog then
<wingodboleash>
but even then
<wingodboleash>
its confusing as he**
<JuanDaugherty>
dmiles, to me function is function, i'd rather think about ways to leave function as is and work on a means to leverage in a common system
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<dmiles>
jackdaniel: the problem is there are 7 refernce impl of Prolog.. immagine me having to write all teh lisp libraries for all 7 ?
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<dmiles>
jackdaniel: or as you said catch poplog up to the capabilities of the best of the 7
<jackdaniel>
what I mean is that poplog allows interoperability of languages supported by it
<jackdaniel>
so if you fix its cl implementation you have libraries already
<jackdaniel>
and you may use it in other poplog languages
<lieven>
pop11 was a nice language but isn't it mostly dead now?
<JuanDaugherty>
everything pretty much boils down to the same ol jacked up 8080 instruction set anywho these days
<schweers>
lieven: what the hell was that?
<dmiles>
but then the whoile prolog world would need to abandon their 7 impls and jsut use proplog.. the path i have now all 7 can run all the lisp libraries
<schweers>
how do you botch a system that badly that these steps are necessary?
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<dmiles>
proplog/poplog
<jackdaniel>
dmiles: you coming up with your own incompatible implementation is like in this xkcd joke: we have 6 standard, that's unacceptable (and they make 7th standard)
<beach>
wingodboleash: What is confusing about it?
<jackdaniel>
s/6 standard/6 standards/
<dmiles>
jackdaniel: though luckily i am *only* implemeting one standard that i did not create (common lisp). and having to write 3-5 shims to cover the differnces in the 7 impls of prolog
<JuanDaugherty>
well cl standard purposes leaves some decisions to impl
<JuanDaugherty>
*purposely
<dmiles>
the 3-5 shims (prolog-to-prolog compatibility libaries) already mostly exist . why i probly only have ot create 3-5
<JuanDaugherty>
from infinite diversity something something
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<dmiles>
JuanDaugherty: i find hta tis the only hard part about the impl.. Do i act like SBCL or do i cat like Clisp or like ECL?
<dmiles>
(i dont want to act like my own)
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<JuanDaugherty>
what's the point if you don't act like ur own (pl flavored i presume)?
<dmiles>
meaning i picking one #+<SBCL/ECL/CLISP> and making sure i conform to being really hte same
<JuanDaugherty>
ah
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<JuanDaugherty>
ur ignoring allegro and the other priced ones?
<dmiles>
i using some of Allegro yeah.. such as their jLinker library
<dmiles>
(which is what ABCL does)
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<dmiles>
Also though I figure most users with be user of Sicstus and SWI.. using things like CLEWS
<JuanDaugherty>
swi is more dominant in pl than sbcl is in cl
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<JuanDaugherty>
people are still using cmucl ftm judging from the list activity
<JuanDaugherty>
(and the complaint about recent breakage)
<dmiles>
*nod* though since SWI is the slowest, it hard not having some of its libs on sicstus.. which the common-lisp libs will more than make up for
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<JuanDaugherty>
yeah i think of yap as the alt
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<JuanDaugherty>
but swi does not seem slow to me
<JuanDaugherty>
it built attempto in like 2s
<dmiles>
and its fast on swi as well!
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<JuanDaugherty>
(i meant swi)
<JuanDaugherty>
not actually used yap, prolly never will
<dmiles>
(/me not being sarcastic.. Swi is fast at running attempto last time i ran it)
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<dmiles>
to contrast speed differnces though i wrote a HPSG parser on SWI, and Goolseby ported a HPSG to ACL.. What took 2 seconds to run on SWI took 30secs on ACL
<dmiles>
(attempto is a HPSG)
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<JuanDaugherty>
i think support is supposed to be acl's strong suite
<JuanDaugherty>
or the comfort of the big house, i dunno
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<JuanDaugherty>
miss ann and mr charlie's lisp
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<dmiles>
english to logic form conversion is one area that Prolog has the advantage
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<Xach>
paule32: does it happen every time you try?
<paule32>
if run with system root/adim rights, then not
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<Xach>
I don't know why clisp is doing that, sorry. I don't use clisp a lot, but when I do, I haven't gotten signal 6 quits.
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<paule32>
*** - Component "cl-ppcre" not found
<paule32>
REINITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY-AND-RETRY :R1 Retry finding system cl-ppcre after reinitializing the source-registry.
<paule32>
Mögliche Optionen:
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<Xach>
paule32: If I were in your situation I would stop using clisp and use something else.
<paule32>
you mean programming?
<paule32>
or setup?
<Xach>
paule32: I mean stop using CLISP and start using SBCL.
<Xach>
paule32: Another option would be to appeal to a clisp user or developer for help.
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<pjb>
dmiles: each implementation has a lisp reader of course. I don't know if sicl already has one implemented. You may have a look at: com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader
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<mfiano>
Xach: Looks like I met your deadline :)
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<Xach>
we'll just see about that!!!
<mfiano>
Xach: Ok, please let me know if you get build failures for gamebox-math from this morning's pull.
<raynold>
Ahh it's a wonderful day
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<rumbler31>
paule32: Vielleicht sollen Sie etwas aenders als clisp benuetzen. Z.B ccl or sbcl
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<paule32>
hi rumbler31
<paule32>
has this a reason?
<Xach>
Auf englisch, svp
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<rumbler31>
one good reason, is that clisp is old (2010-07-07), and trying with ccl or sbcl is easy, and you can get more help with those
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<paule32>
and next year, sbcl is old ? :-)
<rumbler31>
well, right now, new versions are released frequently. Also, do you still use windows xp? or have you upgraded to windows 10, or 7?
<paule32>
never :-)
<paule32>
i use linux
<rumbler31>
which version?
<paule32>
3.19 kernel - linux mint 17 or 18
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<rumbler31>
so you like using a new version of linux, but you won't try a new version of lisp? :-)
<pjb>
paule32: type (apropos "TOPOLOGICAL-SORT") this should show you what package it comes from.
<pjb>
paule32: obviously you cannot remove it, it's an important part of the algorithm. Instead, you can try to design a different algorithm to evaluate a circuit.
<pjb>
paule32: why would you expect output from loading a lisp source file, and then QUITTING!?
<paule32>
i mean the libs ...
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<mgsk>
Is it possible to do something like (defun something (&key a b &rest c) ...) where in (something :a 1 :b 2 :c 1 2 3) they keyword :c "collects" all remaining forms, i.e. C = (1 2 3)?
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<Xach>
mgsk: yes
<Xach>
mgsk: you swap the &rest and &key positions and bob is your uncle
<mgsk>
hot damn
<Xach>
oh wait, sorry.
<Xach>
I was too hasty.
<mgsk>
not hot damn
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<mgsk>
I essentially want to name the &rest
<Xach>
What actually happens is that the &rest var collects subsequent keyword/value pairs. but they have to be matched.
<Xach>
which is a very handy thing but not what you describe
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<Xach>
(defun make-a-thing (class-name &rest args &key &allow-other-keys) (apply 'make-instance class-name args)) for a dumb example
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<mgsk>
I was just thinking about how use-package (in emacs) allows for arbitrarily many forms to be given to a keyword (until the next keyword). But rather than complicate things, I'll re-think my design
<phoe>
mgsk: just use :foo '(bar baz quux)
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<phoe>
this allows you to pass arbitrarily many forms to a keyword, too
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<pjb>
paule32: why does it quit in the end? You're doing it wrong! Never quit from a lisp image!
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<pjb>
phoe: nope. It allows to pass an even number of arguments.
<pjb>
&key implies the &rest arguments must be an EVEN number.
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<pjb>
mgsk: what you need to do, is to use only &rest arguments, and to parse them yourself.
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<pjb>
mgsk: for example, something like (let ((arguments '(:a 1 :b 2 3 4 5 6))) (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) (loop with expected = '(:a :b) while (and arguments (cdr arguments) (member (first arguments) expected)) collect (pop arguments) into keys collect (pop arguments) into keys finally (return (list* :c arguments keys))) (list :a a :b b :c c))) #| --> (:a 1 :b 2 :c (3 4 5 6)) |#
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<pjb>
mgsk: so (defun foo (&rest arguments) (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) (loop with expected = '(:a :b) while (and arguments (cdr arguments) (member (first arguments) expected)) collect (pop arguments) into keys collect (pop arguments) into keys finally (return (list* :c arguments keys))) (list :a a :b b :c c)))
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<mgsk>
pjb: interesting. Thanks
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<pjb>
paule32: aren't you using slime?
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<paule32>
phoe: i have so many idea's, i come not over ;-)
<phoe>
paule32: using Lisp without slime is a terrible experience. you might as well be using a non-interactive language like C or Java.
<paule32>
java is mess, a big big ... slow thing
<paule32>
you have the idea of C, but ... big libs ..
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<phoe>
doesn't matter what Java is. coding in Lisp without any kind of interactivity layer for it prevents you from taking advantage of one of its most important features.
<paule32>
visual studio has code folding and such thing's, too
<paule32>
but they fat
<paule32>
i look over ther system: clisp produce ascii bytecode, sbcl binary bytecode
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<pjb>
paule32: in your paste, we don't see what you did.
<paule32>
pjb: $ clisp elo.lisp # in elo.lisp: (load "./init.lisp") ; where your code from paste
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<pjb>
Sorry, but there's no point of doing that.
<pjb>
paule32: type clisp RET then (load "elo.lisp").
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<paule32>
ok, i did "try-recompiling
<paule32>
few times
<paule32>
and the error is away
<paule32>
but
<paule32>
some export symbols first import
<paule32>
messages occur
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<pjb>
paule32: well, perhaps you don't have a clean cl-user package. Of course, I've already explained years ago, that one should clean his cl-user package in the rc files…
<pjb>
paule32: so, let's add: the com.informatimago.pjb package.
<pjb>
paule32: then add (load (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "RC") :name "COMMON" :type "LISP" :case :common) (user-homedir-pathname) nil)) in your ~/.clisprc.lisp file.
<aeth>
Would it be possible to write something that automatically recompiles all users of a macro, struct, inline function, etc., when it is recompiled? Basically, all of the stuff that can go stale.
<phoe>
Then write a custom DEFMACRO that, whenever a macro is recompiled, finds all users of that macro stored via the above forms, and recompiles them.
<Bike>
so easy
<aeth>
phoe: I was hoping that there was an easier way. SLIME and/or ASDF probably already know certain things.
<pjb>
aeth: this way you can save the source of each form; you may add a plist to macros, structures, inline functions, etc, to list all the things that need to be recompiled.
<Bike>
they only know what the implementation tells them, and t hat varies
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<Bike>
i don't think they implementations actually usually track macro usage, just function usage, which they need to know for linking purposes
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<aeth>
What has issues with recompiling, btw? I'm aware of inline functions, macros, and sometimes (afaik it's implementation-specific) structs.
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<Bike>
type definitions
<aeth>
I think package definitions also have issues, but only if you remove things (rather than add things)
<aeth>
But you can remove those manually by going into the package and uninterning manually iirc
<Bike>
should be irrelevant past read time.
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<Bike>
depending on how you construe the workings of load-time-value in relation to compilation, maybe you'd need to recompile for lots of random reasons
<Bike>
various declarations
<Bike>
strictly speaking, some properties of classes, though i don't know if any implementation actually takes advantage
<aeth>
Oh, actually, I never have to do the whole in-package thing for uninterning ever again, in implementations that support foo::(unintern 'whatever)
<aeth>
That might be the only non-ugly usage of that syntax extension
<aeth>
Or would that not work as expected?
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<Bike>
what in package thing
<aeth>
oh wait, it defaults to the current package, I never had to do that
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<aeth>
ah, I see why I never got it to work
<aeth>
the syntax is: (unintern 'foo::some-symbol-to-remove :foo) because I need to tell it to remove the 'some-symbol-to-remove that's in foo
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<Xach>
a symbol can be interned in many packages
<Xach>
so many
<aeth>
Anyway, my actual point was: if I recompile a function without recompiling the defpackage that imports the new symbol (oops), I now need to unintern that symbol before recompiling the defpackage or else there's a conflict that the debugger wants me to resolve.
<aeth>
A conflict that only exists in the local image, not in any future uses.
<Bike>
how could compiling a function cause a symbol conflict
<Xach>
aeth: I'd like to understand. What bike said.
<Bike>
unless by "recompiling" you mean "rereading and then recompiling"
<Xach>
I think i get it.
<Bike>
and uh... even then i'm not sure i get it
<aeth>
Bike: Well, whatever Slime's C-c C-c is
<Bike>
that rereads, yes
<Xach>
You get "undefined function frob" and you change defpackage to :use the package that provides frob and you get a conflict?
<aeth>
yes
<Xach>
That happens to me - when it does, I use shadowing-import-from to clobber the existing one.
<aeth>
I have always handled that by uninterning and then re-"C-c C-c"ing the defpackage.
<Xach>
The restart in slime helps too.
<paule32>
pjb: seems to work, atm
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<paule32>
pjb: but, what is the difference between $ clisp and $ clisp ./elo.lisp ?
<pjb>
paule32: great. so now you can load your code; it would be nice to define your own package for it. Then you can use the com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility package.
<pjb>
paule32: clisp foo.lisp will load the file and then quit.
<pjb>
paule32: clisp launches the REPL and remains in the REPL.
<pjb>
paule32: so after you've loaded the file, you can go on programming, testing, and debugging.
<pjb>
paule32: have fun in a word.
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<pjb>
paule32: I don't know how many years ago you've started with lisp: you've made clearly no progress since that day. This is because you don't use the REPL.
<paule32>
pjb: hehe :-) but it is a little bit boring always to load clisp and type (load foo.lisp)
<pjb>
paule32: so start using the REPL, at least in the terminal (with clisp it's liveable since there's readline). Better with slime.
<pjb>
paule32: you don't always load clisp: you load it once when you boot your computer and that's it.
<pjb>
paule32: you NEVER quit from a lisp image!
<pjb>
(or an emacs image, it's the same thing).
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<pjb>
paule32: check in common.lisp define-command ll
<paule32>
haha, welcome to the club
<aeth>
paule32: pjb is 100% correct. The proper way to learn CL is to think up small test cases and see how they evaluate in the REPL, preferably the SLIME (or similar) REPL so you can also interact with existing source files.
<paule32>
pjb: that is clever
<pjb>
paule32: you don't type (load "foo.lisp"). In a project, you create a loader.lisp file that will load it, and you type: ll RET at the REPL, with my command.
<paule32>
pjb: yes, that clever
<paule32>
respect!
<aeth>
How do you find out what (1+ 1) does without running it in a REPL?
<pjb>
and since you always have clisp running, you don't need a shell anymore. You can close your other terminal windows, and use clash to run shell commands: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/clash.html
<pjb>
(or use my interactive lookalike commands.
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<paule32>
aeth: 2?
<paule32>
t
<aeth>
paule32: Okay, now what does (1- 1) do?
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<paule32>
f
<pjb>
with clash and readline, you type Meta-c unix-command RET in the REPL to run unix-command.
<paule32>
pjb: the problem: i can't use cursor-up: i expect the last typed command line, but [[A comes
<pjb>
What terminal do you use?
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<aeth>
If you want to launch programs from the REPL, you can use uiop:launch-program (asynchronous) or uiop:run-program (synchronous)
<pjb>
It's funny how the simpliest commands lead to the longuest answer times…
<aeth>
(Note: launch-program is a newer feature, so you probably have to Quickload UIOP first.)
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<paule32>
pjb: xterm like
<pjb>
Then the arrows should work. Perhaps you didn't set the TERM environment variable?
<paule32>
i wonder, why the two marker's are away
<paule32>
markers, that you have set in source "!!! expected 1"
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<pjb>
What does (ext:getenv "TERM") return?
<pjb>
paule32: to debug it you can trace update-outputs
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<paule32>
amd i wonder, why the compiled system run so fast - in fact, the fasl's are ascii text file's
<pjb>
paule32: also, see the call to print-state and uncomment it (comment out the following form instead).
<kami>
Hello #lisp
<pjb>
paule32: yes, but they load into binary lisp data structures.
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<paule32>
so, when i have the source code, i could write binary code that read-in ?
<paule32>
(ext:getenv "TERM")
<paule32>
"xterm"
<pjb>
Good. Then up arrow should work correctly.
<pjb>
Unless you don't have readline in your clisp.
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<paule32>
now, we can run into slime
<pjb>
paule32: clisp --version|grep -e '^libreadline' # should indicate the version of the readline library that is linked.
<pjb>
paule32: if not, you need to recompile clisp with it.
<pjb>
paule32: or indeed, use sline.
<pjb>
with slime, it's emacs history that is used instead of readline.
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<pjb>
paule32: so to obtain the binary, you need to compile the source file. Unfortunately, with clisp, the debugger is way less effcient on compiled code than on interpreted code. So if you want to debug on compiled code, you should rather use ccl (or sbcl).
<pjb>
paule32: in any case, the advantage of using slime, is that you have the same debugger for all the supported implementations! sldb.
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<paule32>
no output
<paule32>
GNU CLISP 2.49 (2010-07-07) (built 3712566422) (memory 3712566523)
<paule32>
Software: GNU-C 6.3.0
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<pjb>
then you need to recompile clisp with readline.
<pjb>
Or use slime.
<pjb>
With slime, readline is not used.
<paule32>
what is better?
<pjb>
both.
<pjb>
then slime.
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<paule32>
i need cffi, later
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<paule32>
i have source codes
<paule32>
2.49
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<ebrasca>
Hi
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<ebrasca>
beach: Are you here?
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<jasom>
ebrasca: it's 11PM where beach is right now, so he may be in bed
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<ebrasca>
jasom: Is beach in europe?
<pjb>
In France!
<ebrasca>
I am in Poland.
<pjb>
On the beaches of Arcachon, near Bordeaux.
<ebrasca>
Here is 23:10 .
<pjb>
Same here. We're in Europe time zone.
<jasom>
14:11 where I am. I'm near different beaches :)
<ebrasca>
If someone like to comment my new abstraction for fat32 here is link: