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<DataLinkDroid>
Good morning.
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* DataLinkDroid
wonders if there is anyone here who has any experience with using CFFI to load and call functions from an Ada 2012 standalone shared library.
<DataLinkDroid>
I'm not having much luck with my first attempt at this, even though I have tinkered with CFFI before with C libraries, successfully.
<aeth>
Ada, interesting.
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* DataLinkDroid
created the Ada 2012 library (with exported functions according to C standard), so the issue could lie on either side.
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* DataLinkDroid
can call the Ada functions fine from C code, but Ada library initialisation seems to case the lisp to crash with a stack or memory error, which appears to be raised from within Ada land.
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<DataLinkDroid>
*cause the lisp to crash
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<DataLinkDroid>
The exception raised after library init is: raised STORAGE_ERROR : stack overflow or erroneous memory access
<DataLinkDroid>
This looks like an Ada message. So it appears to be getting itself into some kind of trouble while initialising itself.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<shangul>
good morning!
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<beach>
Hello shangul.
<shangul>
Hi beach
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* DataLinkDroid
must away for a little while.
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<easye>
~ ~.
<LdBeth>
Good afternoon
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<jackdaniel>
is being a "Geek" a goal in this scenario?
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<MichaelRaskin>
I think Reddit should be borderline acceptable for Lisp talk: either Reddit the company still has people capable to understand Lisp (then they are not strictly enemies), or not and then they consider that subreddit safe gibberish (it's not like you can _comprehensibly_ substantiate any political ideas by Lisp references)
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<drmeister>
What's up with a language-server-protocol server for Common Lisp? Does anyone use one?
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<drmeister>
jupyterlab appears to be going in that direction - to use language server protocol. I'd like to improve our Common Lisp based jupyterlab experience.
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<jackdaniel>
language-server-protocol? like swank protocol?
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<jackdaniel>
uhm, thanks
<beach>
Is this going to be another standard that we do not have the manpower to keep up with?
<beach>
Along with X11, Unicode, OpenType, PDF, HTML, etc...
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<jackdaniel>
if it is well organized then it is a fine protocol for pairing CL with any IDE implementing it (the protocol)
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<jackdaniel>
interesting
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<beach>
I hope you are right.
<beach>
Someone needs to check whether it can handle everything that SLIME needs, like presentations, inspector, backtraces, etc.
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<beach>
And I still worry that it will evolve and that we won't have the resources to keep up.
<Bike>
doesn't look like it has evaluation stuff, at a glance
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<beach>
I didn't look myself. It makes me tired just to think about tracking another standard.
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<kuribas>
If defvar defines a dynamic variable, how do you define a lexical one?
<drmeister>
It irks me that LOOP doesn't have a for-multiple-values (a b c) = (a-multiple-value-call ...) clause
<pjb>
kuribas: lexically, with LET or LET*.
<kuribas>
hmm, apparently you use asterisks by convention, to avoid clashes.
<pjb>
kuribas: also PROG, LAMBDA, DEFUN, DEFMACRO, DEFMETHOD.
<pjb>
Yes, asterisks are only a convention. But you should stick to it to avoid hours of debugging.
<kuribas>
pjb: those are just local bindings.
<pjb>
There's no standard operator to define global lexical variables.
<pjb>
There's define-symbol-macro allowing you to define a global lexical binding. You can use it to define a macro to define global lexical variables. There are such macros in librairies, under various names such as defglobal, deflex, etc.
<pjb>
It's usually a function that takes usually a list of a and d and apply car or cdr accordingly.
<pjb>
It's somebody from Japan.
<pjb>
Japanese programmers are discreet.
<pjb>
drmeister: notice also that it's unlicensed, so it's not free software.
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<drmeister>
pjb: Understood - thank you. I just emailed the developer and posted an issue about it. Let's see what happens.
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<makomo>
if i have a generic function (defgeneric test (a b &optional c &rest d))
<makomo>
and then a method (defmethod test (a b &optional c &key d))
<makomo>
by the rules in 7.6.4, these should have congruent lambda lists
<makomo>
but if you call (test 1 2 3 :e 10), no error is signaled for the invalid keyword e
<makomo>
is this because the checking is done only for the signature of the generic function?
<makomo>
signalled*
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<beach>
There is a phrase somewhere that methods with &key arguments are called with an implicit :ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS T. Let me see whether I can find it.
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<makomo>
beach: disconnected for a second, but i saw your answer. ok.
<beach>
clhs 7.6 4
<makomo>
this? "The checking of the validity of keyword names is done in the generic function, not in each method. A method is invoked as if the keyword argument pair whose name is :allow-other-keys and whose value is true were supplied, though no such argument pair will be passed."
<makomo>
i missed the second sentence the first time
<makomo>
ok, thanks :-)
<beach>
Anytime.
<makomo>
beach: regarding the CLOS book by Sonya Keene, i find the examples ok, even though they use non-standard functionality.
<makomo>
they specify exactly what each of the non-standard hypothetical functions do
<makomo>
so it's not really a problem to follow along
<beach>
Glad you like it.
<makomo>
figured i should read through it quickly just to catch any details before going on with AMOP :-)
<beach>
Yeah, AMOP is non-trivial.
<beach>
I think I tried it three times. The first two times I was totally lost.
<makomo>
ooh
<makomo>
it's also quite lengthy and dense. the pages themselves are large
<beach>
I think I needed more experience as a USER of CLOS before I could grasp it.
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<makomo>
mhm
<skidd0>
Hello all
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<beach>
Hello skidd0.
<makomo>
hello \o
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<skidd0>
So I have a lisp file in a multi file package. In this file, I have a (defvar *tasks* '()) special variable that I want to have access to. When I (use-package my-package), the special var *tasts* is unbound
<skidd0>
what's the method for instantiating this variable on 'use-package'?
<skidd0>
am I missing something obvious?
<beach>
Exporting *tasks* from its package, I would think.
<beach>
Or rather, exporting the symbol whose name is "*TASKS*".
<skidd0>
oh i thought you just had to export methods/functions/classes
<skidd0>
that makes sense
<skidd0>
I'll try it out
<beach>
skidd0: Packages are about symbols.
<beach>
skidd0: You don't export functions or classes, you export their names.
<skidd0>
and namespaces, right?
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<skidd0>
oh right, because the name (symbol) gets evaluated to those functions or class objects
<beach>
Not quite, no.
<skidd0>
exporting isn't exporting the class itself, just the symbol that points to the compiled class?
<beach>
That's a reasonable model.
<skidd0>
what's the proper name for 'compiled class'
<beach>
There is no such thing. A class is an object and can not be compiled.
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<beach>
Only functions can be compiled or not compiled.
<skidd0>
perhaps i should reread that section of PCL
<beach>
A class can be "created" or "defined" if you like.
<skidd0>
so when i make an instance of a class, what's going on there internally?
<skidd0>
lisp pulls that class's object
<beach>
The class IS the object.
<skidd0>
right the class i define in my file
<beach>
It inspects the class metaobject to see how to create the instance and how to initialize it.
<skidd0>
but then, the instance is it's own object right?
<beach>
Yes, the instance of a class and the class metaobjects are distinct objects.
<skidd0>
and that metaobject holds all the things i defined in my code, how to initialize, what member variables are, etc
<beach>
MAKE-INSTANCE looks at the class metaobject of which it is about to create an instance in order to determine how big a chunk of memory to allocate and how to fill it in.
<skidd0>
i see
<skidd0>
thanks, beach
<beach>
Correct, except that they are not called member variables, but "slots".
<skidd0>
are these questions alright here? or should i point them to #lisp-noobs
<skidd0>
oh right, slots
<skidd0>
nomenclature
<beach>
Very important.
<makomo>
indeed :-)
<beach>
skidd0: I think this question is fine. If your questions become too basic, someone might point to too the noobs channel.
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<skidd0>
alright thanks
<skidd0>
lemme know if i wander in that direction
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<beach>
Sure.
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<beach>
And it is not quite right to say that the symbol gets evaluated to a class, because something like (eval 'person) does not return the class metaobject even if you have (defclass person ...).
<beach>
(find-class 'person) does, however.
<makomo>
the proper thing to say would be that "PERSON names a class", right?
<beach>
Correct.
* beach
vanishes in order to fix dinner for his (admittedly small) family.
<makomo>
bon appetit!
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<makomo>
beach: for when you're around again: regarding the keyword issue, the reason why i didn't think that that second sentence applies to that situation is because it's listen for the case when "If the generic function lambda list mentions &key ..."
<makomo>
listed*
<makomo>
but in my case, the generic function only has &rest and no &key
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<makomo>
so is that really the sentence which describes this observed behavior (the fact that method keyword arguments aren't checked)?
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<pjb>
minion: memo for makomo: notice that defgeneric &rest with defmethod &key doesn't respect the Lyskoff substittution principle. Avoid it!
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell makomo when he/she/it next speaks.
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<makomo>
pjb: i assume you meant the Liskov substitution principle? i've never seen that spelling. anyway, how is that related to LSP?
<minion>
makomo, memo from pjb: notice that defgeneric &rest with defmethod &key doesn't respect the Lyskoff substittution principle. Avoid it!
<makomo>
pjb: hm i think i see what you mean but in this case it doesn't have to do with types, which is the original setting for LSP, right? the problem is that the methods don't align with the interface specified by the generic function
<phoe>
makomo: (defgeneric foo (&rest bar))
<makomo>
i.e. S doesn't act like a T, even though it's a particular implementation of T. S being the method, T being the generic function.
<phoe>
this means that you can pass three arguments to FOO
<phoe>
if you use KEY in there, you will only be able to pass an even number of arguments
<phoe>
which means that you break the protocol
<makomo>
"there" being a method?
<phoe>
yes yes
<phoe>
inside a method there
<makomo>
yup, i agree that it's a bad idea
<makomo>
but still, why aren't you warned about invalid keywords?
<makomo>
i.e. if the method then specifies &key in its lambda list and you pass an unspecified keyword argument, why isn't that an error?
<makomo>
the last sentence of case 4 talks about it, but wouldn't that apply only when case 4 is in effect?
<phoe>
hm
<makomo>
in this case the generic function doesn't specify &key anywhere, so :allow-other-keys shouldn't be implicitly true
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<pjb>
makomo: it is related to the type of the &rest arguments. &key imposes that the &rest argument have an even length, and that each even-nubered element be a symbol.
<pjb>
makomo: this specifies a very precise subtype of list.
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<ealfonso>
anyone familiar with hunchentoot know how to redirect an http request to https on the same port when using ssl-acceptor?
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<makomo>
pjb: mhm, i see. but do you know why no warning is issued for invalid keyword arguments then?
<pjb>
Because it's essentially a run-time check, I'd say.
<pjb>
In anycase, giving a meaningfull warning would require global analysis, after all the defgeneric and defmethod forms for this method have been compiled.
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<makomo>
pjb: by warning i meant error. for example, passing unspecified keyword arguments to a normal function is an error
<makomo>
so yes, i expect an error at run-time
<aeth>
You can actually afaik get some degree of global analysis in SBCL with (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t)
<aeth>
It's behind a flag and defaulted to NIL because (1) it violates parts of the ANSI standard and (2) it will break the interactive flow of CL
<aeth>
It assumes function types will never change. I'm not sure if it also applies to generic functions.
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<aeth>
I think you could have a conforming implementation with global analysis always on if you're willing to have the extra bookkeeping overhead of tracking when things are redefined and knowing what else to redefine in that case. That would also improve the experience with macros and inline functions.
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<Ukari>
is there a lexical version defconstant ?
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<Bike>
nope
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<pfdietz>
You can use symbol-macrolet to define something that looks a lot like a constant.
<pfdietz>
In that if you try to use it as a place for assignment it won't work.
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<cgay_>
Go has that but I have to say I haven't seen it used much. I think in a local scope it's not that useful, though it provides a little more indication of intention.
<Ukari>
i wanna use lexical defconstant or a lexical let which can't assign twice, because it might make code more clear when a variable couldn't be changed
<Ukari>
after i rewrite one piece of code into unchange style, i realized that benefit
<cgay_>
bike-shedding: would be nice to be able to indicate const-ness for a particular variable in a LET, rather than introducing a new level of indentation.
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