jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<stylewarning> drunk_foxx[m]: the first take of the video did everything from defining the syntax of S-expressions and etc etc
<stylewarning> The history since Lisp 1.5
<stylewarning> But it’s too much
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<Xach> Wow, cool
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<didi> What, what? A new lisp video? Linky?
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<Xach> didi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI - i'm not familiar with the channel but it has a big audience
<vtomole> That channel has a lot of great interviews.
<didi> Xach: Thank you.
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<clintm> I particularly like the episode on the CERN data center.
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<ealfonso> is there something better than: (format log-fh "~A~A~A~A~A~A~A~%" ip #\tab date #\tab user-agent #\tab path)
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<ealfonso> also, is there a good tool to profile hunchentoot on sbcl?
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<ealfonso> I heard of this http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Statistical-Profiler.html which gives me 404
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<PuercoPop> additionally when you install SBCL you can build the docs as texinfo, which can be read from inside Emacs (C-h i)
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<pierpa> ealfonso: you could abstract and give a name to the action "print a few things separated by tabs and then swithch to a new line"
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<pierpa> it would be a trivial function to write and would be much more readable
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<ealfonso> pierpa yeah, I was just wondering if there's a built-in way with format or another standard way
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<pierpa> hmmm
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<ealfonso> ,(format t (format nil "~~{~~A~~^~C~~}" #\tab) (list 1 2 3))
<ealfonso> I guess I can use that
<pierpa> Not sure if there's a format trick for doing it in an obfuscated way saving one or two keystrokes. But even if, don't. :)
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<pierpa> you surely won't like it, but FWIW, here's how I would do it: (defun print-line-tab-separated (where &rest what) (princ (first what) where) (loop for item in (rest what) do (princ #\tab where) (princ item where)) (terpri))
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<ealfonso> pierpa thanks. I think the double format works for now
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<pierpa> Sure. It's even shorter!
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<mange> ealfonso: Would (format log-fh "~@{~a~^~}" ip date user-agent path) do what you want? (Note the literal tab in the format string.)
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<ealfonso> mange yes, that works
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<on_ion> can CLOS be written in pure CL ?
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<jasom> mange: closette as well
<jasom> on_ion: Other than initialization and garbage collection, all of sbcl is written in CL.
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<pillton> I think it would be difficult to integrate an independent implementation of CLOS with the host's implementation of typep; assuming the host doesn't have CLOS already.
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<jackdaniel> pillton: CLOS is integral part of ECL now, but years ago (before I even knew about the project) it had option to build it without CLOS – type implementation there is independent
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<pillton> Right.
<theemacsshibe[m]> i'd like some help refactoring a pattern matcher i wrote
<theemacsshibe[m]> it's all good but to handle improper lists like `(x . xs)` i need to add a conditional setf which i don't like very much
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<theemacsshibe[m]> morning beach
<mange> theemacsshibe[m]: At the moment if you call (p-match 'a 10) you get back '(a . 10), but if you call (p-match '(a) '(10)) you get '((a . 10)). That's surprising to me.
<theemacsshibe[m]> good point
<mange> If you make it so p-match always returns a list of matches, I think you can also clean up your conditional setf, and the conditional after it.
<theemacsshibe[m]> using nconc makes it less bad
<theemacsshibe[m]> i'm not sure about appending either.
<pierpal> you want back a list of bindings?
<mange> nconc is the same as append, except it can also mutate, right?
<pierpal> yes
<theemacsshibe[m]> i'm trying to return an assoc list
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<theemacsshibe[m]> aaaaactually given i want to put this on an environment alist there could be a better solution
<pierpal> then the last cons is not correct
<theemacsshibe[m]> i realised as much
<pierpal> append would be the quick & dirty patch
<theemacsshibe[m]> (also the indentation is funny cause i'm entering it into SLIME)
<pierpal> you can make it linear time, instead of quadratic, by using an extra parameter
<theemacsshibe[m]> yeah i'm trying that now
<pierpal> working as an accumulator
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<loli> well, the append is essentially O(1) since the biggest list is of size 1
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<pierpal> I'm sorry I can't show the code now as I'm not typing from a real comp
<theemacsshibe[m]> all good, i want to figure out that myself then
<pierpal> it's not of size 1
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<theemacsshibe[m]> i got it
<pierpal> each call returns a list of bindings
<pierpal> good
<pierpal> so you knew how to do it!
<theemacsshibe[m]> yeah i just didn't think of using an accumulator
<theemacsshibe[m]> my end goal is to port it to cee to get it working in my interpreter for lambdas
<pierpal> ah!
<theemacsshibe[m]> c:
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<theemacsshibe[m]> i've ported it to cee now
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<theemacsshibe[m]> >recommends me a video on FP and Haskell
<theemacsshibe[m]> I'm gonna go do some stuff, totally not murdering that scientist board that liked Mr Curry, with the time machine I built.
<theemacsshibe[m]> (let ((time (- time (years 30))) (loop for person in (getf haskell :design-group) do (murder person) collect (scalp-of person)))
<theemacsshibe[m]> I...missed a paren.
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<pierpal> oh no! now the universe will implode!
<antoszka> oh well, high time it did
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<BernhardPosselt> hi, what features should I look into for expanding my horizon? I know the usual web stack, Java, Rust and a bit of Haskell
<BernhardPosselt> shouldnt knowing macros or compiler plugins cover most of the power of Lisp already?
<BernhardPosselt> my view of lisp is that it's a language with a nice macro system
<BernhardPosselt> s/view/understanding
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<Xach> It will be hard to learn new things if you decide in advance what you'll get out of it.
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<ecraven> BernhardPosselt: to me, lisp is about much more than macros
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<ecraven> Xach: thanks for that link!
<BernhardPosselt> syntax for me is off putting but I've heard from so many places that you should learn a Lisp language because it's powerful
<ecraven> BernhardPosselt: to me, the syntax is one of the strongest points in favour of lisp ;)
<BernhardPosselt> so I'm finally up for trying it (probably going with Clojure)
<ecraven> clojure has the least nice syntax of the lisps, imho :P
<Xach> This is a channel for Common Lisp and can provide help with it.
<BernhardPosselt> ecraven: syntax as in? looks all the same to me
<Xach> ure_programmer/d4eec68/
<Xach> darn it
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<BernhardPosselt> thank you
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<ecraven> Xach: ah, there's only two parts so far? This seems like a book I would gladly pay for, but it hasn't been written yet :-/
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<Xach> ecraven: encourage martin to keep going!
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<ecraven> Xach: is he ever here?
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<Xach> I think he does not use IRC
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<loke> Hello Lisp
<Colleen> loke: drmeister said 8 hours, 52 minutes ago: The dev branch built - I pushed it to the master branch
<drmeister> Hi loke
<loke> Hello drmeister
<drmeister> Clasp is now building using all available cores for compile-file.
<loke> thanks for updating me. So I'll just build from master now, yes?
<drmeister> You may want to try it out - but it needs a special build of boehm and a little more setup than usual.
<loke> OK, and those are things I would have to do manually?
<drmeister> Yes - we have not integrated the boehm build system into clasp - it's a bit of a PITA
<drmeister> And then add this to the clasp wscript.config...
<drmeister> USE_PARALLEL_BUILD = True
<drmeister> It's still "experimental" - but it's been working for weeks in several peoples hands.
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<loke> drmeister: Thanks.
<drmeister> If you have more than ~8 cores the build becomes dominated by other linear processes.
<loke> I'll try it tomorrow.
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<drmeister> Cool - just check in with us in #clasp if you run into any trouble.
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<_death> ecraven: I think a very strong point for lisp is that it's not just a language, but also a "living" system.. when developing you simultaneously evolve the lisp language and the lisp process
<ecraven> _death: I've been working with SLIME a lot with different Schemes (implementing an r7rs swank), and I've come to found out that while I prefer the *language* Scheme, it just cannot compare in any way to the *system* Common Lisp
<ecraven> I haven't found any Scheme that comes even remotely close to debugging, introspection and mutation of running systems in common lisp
<ecraven> I am very much a fan of "world" systems, and it seems every Scheme implementation has mostly just given up on that :-/
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<ecraven> so if you want what CL has here, you really have to use CL :-)
<loke> ecraven: Have you tried Smalltalk?
<_death> just today I put back a screencast I made a while ago.. it's a bit long, but may be entertaining to "advanced" lispers.. https://adeht.org/casts/new-project.html
<ecraven> loke: years ago, I find it interesting, but not something I would want to actually use the way I use lisp now
<ecraven> loke: I also like prolog, APL and forth :D
<loke> ecraven: Smalltalk is nothing like Lisp, but has the same system-based development model. If you try it, and you like the model there, ten that suggests that that is indeed the aspect you like.
<ecraven> loke: oh, I like that aspect of smalltalk, I don't like all the visual things it necessitates
<loke> ecraven: All of those languages are more or less system-based in the way you described.
<ecraven> yea, I've noticed that
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<ecraven> erlang might be similar, in that you can connect to a running world, modify things, and it keeps working
<loke> ecraven: Yes, but it's more limited. You have to rebuild one module at a time. You can't just recompile a function.
<loke> and the tooling is less advanced than SLIME.
<ecraven> in a way, it is a bit dismaying to find that *no* other language can compare with CL in this aspect :-/
<ecraven> I love *writing* Scheme code, but actually *maintaining* it is not so much fun :-/
<ecraven> I guess that is the reason that so much decades-old CL code still runs fine ;)
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<on_ion> ecraven: Prolog
<on_ion> Smalltalk
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<flip214> Forth
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<shka> hy
<shka> i need compact objects with slots that can be missing
<shka> i can cook my own solution, but perhaps there is something already
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<cgay> protocol buffers
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<makomo> hello
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<phoe> heyyy
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<cgay> hi
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<flip214> shka: a hash-table, a plist, an alist, ...
<flip214> depends on the access patterns and number of slots (average/max/...)
<phoe> shka: define "missing"
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<phoe> unbound? not defined?
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<flip214> my guess is "not used" and so should be omitted to conserve memory
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<phoe> then an alist/plist if there's less than 20 cells, otherwise a hashtable
<phoe> s/cells/key-value pairs
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<_death> one exemplary use case of the MOP is dynamic slots
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<flip214> _death: but that's only a good idea for a few common sets of slots, and not 30 slots with 50% chance of existance... too many combinations
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<_death> still it provides a way to use your own storage representation
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<aeth> For me, I pretty much always use a hash table when I want a hash table. Using a(n) alist/plist for a small number of elements is implementation-specific premature optimization. However, a plist can still be a good choice with lots of elements, if you're iterating over it (e.g. alexandria:doplist)
<aeth> _death: Why would you want dynamic slots?
<_death> I never used them, but AMOP claims they're useful in knowledge representation systems
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<aindilis> what is the recommended reading path for someone who knows some lisp who wants to get good at Common Lisp for AI?
<Bike> books on AI
<Bike> what kind of thing are you interested in? machine learning is the big one right now. i thought probably approximately correct was neat, but probably wrong about biology
<Bike> but thought it was*
<aindilis> well I am interested in Knowledge Based Systems and Automated Theorem Proving, CYC etc
<aindilis> Building Problem Solvers
<aindilis> Program Synthesis
<aindilis> Eurisko
<aindilis> Prolog
<Bike> well, read about those then
<Bike> nothing about it is very lisp specific
<aindilis> well how would I master Common Lisp
<sjl> you might like Paradigms of AI Programming by Norvig (recently made freely available by him)
<Bike> using a programming language is a good way to learn it. it sounds like you have a goal that motivates you to write code, so you're set
<aindilis> k
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<pfdietz> CL could use a good sat solver.
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<aindilis> what comes after AMOP?
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<antoszka> aindilis: Let over Lambda
<aindilis> ty
<rme> I recently learned that there are SAT solving competitions.
<antoszka> Actually, I'd say it's more interesting (intellectually) than AMOP
<MichaelRaskin> Not only SAT! There is also, say CASC.
<rme> The ACL2 people told me about them.
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<p_l> http://troubles.md/posts/i-triple-equals/ fun things CPUs do to your code
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<MichaelRaskin> Well, to your data
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<MichaelRaskin> flds is emitted by LLVM, after all
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<pfdietz> I've called Z3 from sbcl, but it would be nice to have a solver with more accessible innards.
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<makomo> aindilis: antoszka: i read (actually, am still reading) LoL before AMOP (haven't yet begun reading)
<pfdietz> Applying machine learning to theorem proving is a hot topic now. https://www.floc2018.org/summit-on-machine-learning/
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<p_l> pfdietz: the summary from that link sounds more like applying formal methods to machine learning
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<antoszka> makomo: good ;)
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<on_ion> aindilis: what are you doing? arent you using prolog already for those things..??
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<granttrec> how to pick a lisp implementation?
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<White_Flame> what OS are you on?
<White_Flame> if linux, then SBCL is great. It runs on Windows, and while it's been a bit immature there, I think it's solid at this point
<White_Flame> ccl (clozure common lisp) has been solid on windows & mac for a long time
<White_Flame> most people use sbcl here
<White_Flame> there's also ECL which can interoperate in a C environment, CLASP for C++, ABCL for Java
<rme> CCL's solid Linux too, if I may say so.
<White_Flame> yep
<edgar-rft> granttrec, we need more information to help you
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<granttrec1> sorry my computer just froze for some reason, i'm on linux
<granttrec1> I'm interested in learning lisp but not sure which to pick since there are many
<granttrec1> edgar-rft: the link is broken
<White_Flame> just grab SBCL
<White_Flame> it's basically the fastest, and best supported by libraries
<edgar-rft> granttrec1, the link works here - no idea why not for you
<granttrec1> White_Flame: thanks
<granttrec1> edgar-rft: https://imgur.com/a/Yjk7Qn4
<edgar-rft> CLISP is newbie-friendly but somewhat semi-maintained at the moment, most people here are SBCL users
<White_Flame> install SBCL and emacs. Then install https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and quicklisp-slime-helper
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<granttrec1> already got emacs :)
<White_Flame> from there, you should be able to run M-x slime (alt-x slime on most keyboards/setups)
<White_Flame> and that'll give you your interactive environment