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<
stylewarning >
drunk_foxx[m]: the first take of the video did everything from defining the syntax of S-expressions and etc etc
00:28
<
stylewarning >
The history since Lisp 1.5
00:28
<
stylewarning >
But it’s too much
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<
didi >
What, what? A new lisp video? Linky?
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<
vtomole >
That channel has a lot of great interviews.
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<
didi >
Xach: Thank you.
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<
clintm >
I particularly like the episode on the CERN data center.
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<
ealfonso >
is there something better than: (format log-fh "~A~A~A~A~A~A~A~%" ip #\tab date #\tab user-agent #\tab path)
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<
ealfonso >
also, is there a good tool to profile hunchentoot on sbcl?
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<
PuercoPop >
additionally when you install SBCL you can build the docs as texinfo, which can be read from inside Emacs (C-h i)
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<
pierpa >
ealfonso: you could abstract and give a name to the action "print a few things separated by tabs and then swithch to a new line"
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<
pierpa >
it would be a trivial function to write and would be much more readable
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<
ealfonso >
pierpa yeah, I was just wondering if there's a built-in way with format or another standard way
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<
ealfonso >
,(format t (format nil "~~{~~A~~^~C~~}" #\tab) (list 1 2 3))
03:20
<
ealfonso >
I guess I can use that
03:20
<
pierpa >
Not sure if there's a format trick for doing it in an obfuscated way saving one or two keystrokes. But even if, don't. :)
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<
pierpa >
you surely won't like it, but FWIW, here's how I would do it: (defun print-line-tab-separated (where &rest what) (princ (first what) where) (loop for item in (rest what) do (princ #\tab where) (princ item where)) (terpri))
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<
ealfonso >
pierpa thanks. I think the double format works for now
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<
pierpa >
Sure. It's even shorter!
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<
mange >
ealfonso: Would (format log-fh "~@{~a~^~}" ip date user-agent path) do what you want? (Note the literal tab in the format string.)
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<
ealfonso >
mange yes, that works
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<
on_ion >
can CLOS be written in pure CL ?
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<
jasom >
mange: closette as well
04:55
<
jasom >
on_ion: Other than initialization and garbage collection, all of sbcl is written in CL.
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<
pillton >
I think it would be difficult to integrate an independent implementation of CLOS with the host's implementation of typep; assuming the host doesn't have CLOS already.
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<
jackdaniel >
pillton: CLOS is integral part of ECL now, but years ago (before I even knew about the project) it had option to build it without CLOS – type implementation there is independent
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
i'd like some help refactoring a pattern matcher i wrote
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
it's all good but to handle improper lists like `(x . xs)` i need to add a conditional setf which i don't like very much
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<
beach >
Good morning everyone!
05:38
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
morning beach
05:38
<
mange >
theemacsshibe[m]: At the moment if you call (p-match 'a 10) you get back '(a . 10), but if you call (p-match '(a) '(10)) you get '((a . 10)). That's surprising to me.
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
good point
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<
mange >
If you make it so p-match always returns a list of matches, I think you can also clean up your conditional setf, and the conditional after it.
05:39
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
using nconc makes it less bad
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
i'm not sure about appending either.
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<
pierpal >
you want back a list of bindings?
05:40
<
mange >
nconc is the same as append, except it can also mutate, right?
05:41
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
i'm trying to return an assoc list
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
aaaaactually given i want to put this on an environment alist there could be a better solution
05:41
<
pierpal >
then the last cons is not correct
05:41
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
i realised as much
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<
pierpal >
append would be the quick & dirty patch
05:42
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
(also the indentation is funny cause i'm entering it into SLIME)
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<
pierpal >
you can make it linear time, instead of quadratic, by using an extra parameter
05:43
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
yeah i'm trying that now
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<
pierpal >
working as an accumulator
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<
loli >
well, the append is essentially O(1) since the biggest list is of size 1
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<
pierpal >
I'm sorry I can't show the code now as I'm not typing from a real comp
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
all good, i want to figure out that myself then
05:45
<
pierpal >
it's not of size 1
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
i got it
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<
pierpal >
each call returns a list of bindings
05:47
<
pierpal >
so you knew how to do it!
05:47
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
yeah i just didn't think of using an accumulator
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
my end goal is to port it to cee to get it working in my interpreter for lambdas
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
c:
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<
theemacsshibe[m] >
i've ported it to cee now
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11:34
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
>recommends me a video on FP and Haskell
11:36
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
I'm gonna go do some stuff, totally not murdering that scientist board that liked Mr Curry, with the time machine I built.
11:38
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
(let ((time (- time (years 30))) (loop for person in (getf haskell :design-group) do (murder person) collect (scalp-of person)))
11:38
<
theemacsshibe[m] >
I...missed a paren.
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<
pierpal >
oh no! now the universe will implode!
11:43
<
antoszka >
oh well, high time it did
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<
BernhardPosselt >
hi, what features should I look into for expanding my horizon? I know the usual web stack, Java, Rust and a bit of Haskell
11:54
<
BernhardPosselt >
shouldnt knowing macros or compiler plugins cover most of the power of Lisp already?
11:55
<
BernhardPosselt >
my view of lisp is that it's a language with a nice macro system
11:55
<
BernhardPosselt >
s/view/understanding
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11:56
<
Xach >
It will be hard to learn new things if you decide in advance what you'll get out of it.
11:56
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11:56
<
ecraven >
BernhardPosselt: to me, lisp is about much more than macros
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11:57
<
ecraven >
Xach: thanks for that link!
11:58
<
BernhardPosselt >
syntax for me is off putting but I've heard from so many places that you should learn a Lisp language because it's powerful
11:58
<
ecraven >
BernhardPosselt: to me, the syntax is one of the strongest points in favour of lisp ;)
11:58
<
BernhardPosselt >
so I'm finally up for trying it (probably going with Clojure)
11:58
<
ecraven >
clojure has the least nice syntax of the lisps, imho :P
11:59
<
Xach >
This is a channel for Common Lisp and can provide help with it.
11:59
<
BernhardPosselt >
ecraven: syntax as in? looks all the same to me
11:59
<
Xach >
ure_programmer/d4eec68/
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<
BernhardPosselt >
thank you
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<
ecraven >
Xach: ah, there's only two parts so far? This seems like a book I would gladly pay for, but it hasn't been written yet :-/
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<
Xach >
ecraven: encourage martin to keep going!
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<
ecraven >
Xach: is he ever here?
13:05
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<
Xach >
I think he does not use IRC
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<
Colleen >
loke: drmeister said 8 hours, 52 minutes ago: The dev branch built - I pushed it to the master branch
13:10
<
drmeister >
Hi loke
13:10
<
loke >
Hello drmeister
13:10
<
drmeister >
Clasp is now building using all available cores for compile-file.
13:10
<
loke >
thanks for updating me. So I'll just build from master now, yes?
13:11
<
drmeister >
You may want to try it out - but it needs a special build of boehm and a little more setup than usual.
13:11
<
loke >
OK, and those are things I would have to do manually?
13:12
<
drmeister >
Yes - we have not integrated the boehm build system into clasp - it's a bit of a PITA
13:12
<
drmeister >
And then add this to the clasp wscript.config...
13:12
<
drmeister >
USE_PARALLEL_BUILD = True
13:13
<
drmeister >
It's still "experimental" - but it's been working for weeks in several peoples hands.
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<
loke >
drmeister: Thanks.
13:14
<
drmeister >
If you have more than ~8 cores the build becomes dominated by other linear processes.
13:14
<
loke >
I'll try it tomorrow.
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<
drmeister >
Cool - just check in with us in #clasp if you run into any trouble.
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<
_death >
ecraven: I think a very strong point for lisp is that it's not just a language, but also a "living" system.. when developing you simultaneously evolve the lisp language and the lisp process
13:16
<
ecraven >
_death: I've been working with SLIME a lot with different Schemes (implementing an r7rs swank), and I've come to found out that while I prefer the
*language* Scheme, it just cannot compare in any way to the
*system* Common Lisp
13:17
<
ecraven >
I haven't found any Scheme that comes even remotely close to debugging, introspection and mutation of running systems in common lisp
13:17
<
ecraven >
I am very much a fan of "world" systems, and it seems every Scheme implementation has mostly just given up on that :-/
13:18
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13:18
<
ecraven >
so if you want what CL has here, you really have to use CL :-)
13:18
<
loke >
ecraven: Have you tried Smalltalk?
13:18
<
ecraven >
loke: years ago, I find it interesting, but not something I would want to actually use the way I use lisp now
13:19
<
ecraven >
loke: I also like prolog, APL and forth :D
13:19
<
loke >
ecraven: Smalltalk is nothing like Lisp, but has the same system-based development model. If you try it, and you like the model there, ten that suggests that that is indeed the aspect you like.
13:19
<
ecraven >
loke: oh, I like that aspect of smalltalk, I don't like all the visual things it necessitates
13:19
<
loke >
ecraven: All of those languages are more or less system-based in the way you described.
13:19
<
ecraven >
yea, I've noticed that
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<
ecraven >
erlang might be similar, in that you can connect to a running world, modify things, and it keeps working
13:22
<
loke >
ecraven: Yes, but it's more limited. You have to rebuild one module at a time. You can't just recompile a function.
13:22
<
loke >
and the tooling is less advanced than SLIME.
13:24
<
ecraven >
in a way, it is a bit dismaying to find that
*no* other language can compare with CL in this aspect :-/
13:24
<
ecraven >
I love
*writing* Scheme code, but actually
*maintaining* it is not so much fun :-/
13:24
<
ecraven >
I guess that is the reason that so much decades-old CL code still runs fine ;)
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<
on_ion >
ecraven: Prolog
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<
shka >
i need compact objects with slots that can be missing
16:15
<
shka >
i can cook my own solution, but perhaps there is something already
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<
cgay >
protocol buffers
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<
flip214 >
shka: a hash-table, a plist, an alist, ...
17:49
<
flip214 >
depends on the access patterns and number of slots (average/max/...)
17:49
<
phoe >
shka: define "missing"
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<
phoe >
unbound? not defined?
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<
flip214 >
my guess is "not used" and so should be omitted to conserve memory
17:59
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17:59
<
phoe >
then an alist/plist if there's less than 20 cells, otherwise a hashtable
18:00
<
phoe >
s/cells/key-value pairs
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<
_death >
one exemplary use case of the MOP is dynamic slots
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<
flip214 >
_death: but that's only a good idea for a few common sets of slots, and not 30 slots with 50% chance of existance... too many combinations
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<
_death >
still it provides a way to use your own storage representation
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<
aeth >
For me, I pretty much always use a hash table when I want a hash table. Using a(n) alist/plist for a small number of elements is implementation-specific premature optimization. However, a plist can still be a good choice with lots of elements, if you're iterating over it (e.g. alexandria:doplist)
18:31
<
aeth >
_death: Why would you want dynamic slots?
18:33
<
_death >
I never used them, but AMOP claims they're useful in knowledge representation systems
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<
aindilis >
what is the recommended reading path for someone who knows some lisp who wants to get good at Common Lisp for AI?
20:30
<
Bike >
what kind of thing are you interested in? machine learning is the big one right now. i thought probably approximately correct was neat, but probably wrong about biology
20:30
<
Bike >
but thought it was*
20:30
<
aindilis >
well I am interested in Knowledge Based Systems and Automated Theorem Proving, CYC etc
20:30
<
aindilis >
Building Problem Solvers
20:30
<
aindilis >
Program Synthesis
20:31
<
Bike >
well, read about those then
20:31
<
Bike >
nothing about it is very lisp specific
20:31
<
aindilis >
well how would I master Common Lisp
20:31
<
sjl >
you might like Paradigms of AI Programming by Norvig (recently made freely available by him)
20:32
<
Bike >
using a programming language is a good way to learn it. it sounds like you have a goal that motivates you to write code, so you're set
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<
pfdietz >
CL could use a good sat solver.
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<
aindilis >
what comes after AMOP?
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20:38
<
antoszka >
aindilis: Let over Lambda
20:39
<
rme >
I recently learned that there are SAT solving competitions.
20:39
<
antoszka >
Actually, I'd say it's more interesting (intellectually) than AMOP
20:40
<
MichaelRaskin >
Not only SAT! There is also, say CASC.
20:40
<
rme >
The ACL2 people told me about them.
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<
MichaelRaskin >
Well, to your data
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<
MichaelRaskin >
flds is emitted by LLVM, after all
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<
pfdietz >
I've called Z3 from sbcl, but it would be nice to have a solver with more accessible innards.
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<
makomo >
aindilis: antoszka: i read (actually, am still reading) LoL before AMOP (haven't yet begun reading)
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<
p_l >
pfdietz: the summary from that link sounds more like applying formal methods to machine learning
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<
antoszka >
makomo: good ;)
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<
on_ion >
aindilis: what are you doing? arent you using prolog already for those things..??
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<
granttrec >
how to pick a lisp implementation?
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<
White_Flame >
what OS are you on?
23:48
<
White_Flame >
if linux, then SBCL is great. It runs on Windows, and while it's been a bit immature there, I think it's solid at this point
23:49
<
White_Flame >
ccl (clozure common lisp) has been solid on windows & mac for a long time
23:49
<
White_Flame >
most people use sbcl here
23:50
<
White_Flame >
there's also ECL which can interoperate in a C environment, CLASP for C++, ABCL for Java
23:50
<
rme >
CCL's solid Linux too, if I may say so.
23:52
<
edgar-rft >
granttrec, we need more information to help you
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<
granttrec1 >
sorry my computer just froze for some reason, i'm on linux
23:55
<
granttrec1 >
I'm interested in learning lisp but not sure which to pick since there are many
23:56
<
granttrec1 >
edgar-rft: the link is broken
23:56
<
White_Flame >
just grab SBCL
23:56
<
White_Flame >
it's basically the fastest, and best supported by libraries
23:57
<
edgar-rft >
granttrec1, the link works here - no idea why not for you
23:57
<
granttrec1 >
White_Flame: thanks
23:58
<
edgar-rft >
CLISP is newbie-friendly but somewhat semi-maintained at the moment, most people here are SBCL users
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23:59
<
granttrec1 >
already got emacs :)
23:59
<
White_Flame >
from there, you should be able to run M-x slime (alt-x slime on most keyboards/setups)
23:59
<
White_Flame >
and that'll give you your interactive environment