jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<iqubic> kukuruznik: you should really just authorize yourself, as this is not the right channel for that.
<iqubic> I recommend #emacs.
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<asarch> From PCL, chapter 11: "To add an element to the end of a resizable vector, you can use the function VECTOR-PUSH. It adds the element at the current value of the fill pointer and then increments the fill pointer by one, returning the index where the new element was added.", however, can you do something a la C: int a[5]; a[3] = some_value; <- In the sense you can use arbitrary the indexes of the array?
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<pierpa> of course
<pierpa> a resizable vector is just a vector
<pierpa> and to use VECTOR-PUSH, it must have a fill-pointer
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<asarch> How would you do that with a fixed-size vector?
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<pierpal> (setf (aref a 3) some-value)
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<asarch> Thank you pierpal
<asarch> Thank you very much :-)
<asarch> See you later
<asarch> Have a nice day
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<loke> It's always so quiet here during ELS.
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<iqubic> What is ELS?
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<iqubic> Is that happening now?
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<iqubic> Actually, better question: Are the talks being recorded/livestreamed or posted to youtube or something?
<loke> iqubic: Not livestreamed
<loke> They might be posted later. I'm not sure.
<loke> iqubic: It is happening now. I wanted to go, but no time and it was too much of a hassle to travel.
<loke> I'd have to fly to london (14+ hours) and then to gibgraltar
<iqubic> I'm in Seattle, WA, USA, so I can't really go/
<loke> or maybe to Frankfurt or something
<loke> iqubic: Wny not? You're closer than me.
<iqubic> I'm in High School, and have no disposable income, and my parents wouldn't support this.
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<iqubic> And I'm not on break.
<loke> iqubic: You sure? It' snot that expensive.
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<loke> A lot of people in the US (i.e. your parents) seem to think that just because you're travelling outside the US, it's somehow complicated, expensive and difficult.
<pierpal> surely it's not free
<iqubic> yeah, but I don't have the time. I'm not sure I can convice my parents that they should spend this money for me to go learn about an obscure programming language.
<loke> I was talking to this guy in philadelphia or something, and he was shocked to learn that going to london was faster and easier than going to california
<loke> iqubic: That's not the right way to phrase it though
<iqubic> Are there any major companies/startups using CL, or some derivation thereof?
<loke> Anyway, hopefully next year it'll be in a better location. If it's in, say, Berlin, it would be a lot easier to go to for everybody
<loke> Well, the reason the location ios as obscure as it is is because there is a company doing Lisp work located there, and they're hoping to hire people :-)
<loke> So they sponsore the event.
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<iqubic> What company is this?
<loke> I can't remember.
<iqubic> I wish there were programming meetups in Seattle or somewhere close to me.
<loke> iqubic: Well, I just rnadomly checked the cost for a flight from seatlly to berlin, return... and it's just over 1000 USD
<loke> so it's not actually expensive to travel.
<loke> I don't know why people in the US don't travel more.
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<loke> "seattle" even
<iqubic> See, don't you have to add in the cost of a ticket, and a hotel?
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<loke> iqubic: Yeah, but that's not too mcuh
<loke> I'm just saying that just because an event is in europe that it's difficult for you to attend.
<loke> Keep that in mind for next year's event.
<loke> I'm looking at going to a small town in Sweden for a two-day event in july
<loke> That's be much more of a hassle :-)
<loke> (have to fly to stockholm and rent a car and drive for 2+ hours)
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<iqubic> Yeah, I don't have a driver's license, so I'd be relying on taxis and other such things.
<loke> iqubic: Well, in my case, a train would actually be faster :-) I'm just renting a car since I will meet up with a friend before the even and go on a mountain bike ride on some trails nearby.
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<jach[m]> iqubic: have you been to the Seajure meetup? I'd bet there's some common lisp people there too.. there was also a Lisp group but they haven't had a meetup since december.
<iqubic> I haven't been to the Seajure meeting.
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<Guest74201> I'm curious if anyone uses alternatives to common CL symbols. e.g. using 'fn' instead of 'lambda', or a version of defun that takes extra lambda arguments for types
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<iqubic> Why would we use these things when they are not standard things.
<iqubic> ???
<loke> Guest74201: What would the purpose of that be?
<Guest74201> For lambda, fn is shorter, and you will type it thousands of times.
<Guest74201> This is the reason Arc uses fn.
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<Guest74201> For defun, if typechecks are common in a code base, instead of always writing (defun (x y) (declare (type number x) (type string y) ...), you could write something like (defun (x number y string &return string) ...)
<Shinmera> A large reason is because we want the code to be readable and understandable for other people
<Shinmera> but if you don't care about that you're of course free to do whatever you like
<Shinmera> Typing a few characters more is hardly going to hamper productivity.
<Shinmera> Or, I should say, if your productivity is hampered by how much you have to type then you either don't type fast enough, or you don't spend enough time thinking instead of typing.
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<Guest74201> Paul Graham on fn vs. lambda: We're going to try not to include any onions in Arc. Everything is open to question. For example, in Arc, lambda is called fn. This idea appalled me at first, but it seemed like fn would be shorter and at least as expressive. What if I was just used to lambda? So, with a queasy sense of duty, I decided to try it. And after a few days I actually liked fn better. Now it seems clear to me that lambda is an
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<Shinmera> Your message cuts off and it also doesn't matter, because CL is not Arc.
<Guest74201> I agree it's not a huge deal. I'm just working on a little DSL and it got me thinking about the builtin symbols.
<LdBeth> Sup
<Shinmera> ELS
<Guest74201> I'm just curious if there are such shorthand libraries that have caught on in the last 7 years or so.
<Shinmera> There's probably quite a few libraries or projects that use such shorthands, but nothing widespread for the reasons I've outlined.
<Guest74201> gotcha
<cess11_> I've heard some code editors allow clever code completion technologies. Perhaps that would be an alternative.
<LdBeth> Job security
<LdBeth> Opusmodus is fabulous
<jack_rabbit> I would prefer fn to lambda, but I wouldn't ever create such an alias, to avoid obfuscating the code.
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<ecraven> just use λ
<ecraven> even shorter than fn, and your editor can show it instead of "lambda", no need to change the source
<LdBeth> CL21 provides some fancy syntax sugars from Clojure
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<antoszka> hasn't cl21 become pretty much abandonware?
<LdBeth> such as ^(+ % 1) for (lambda (x) (+ x 1))
<Shinmera> antoszka: yes
<antoszka> Shinmera: it's a bit of a pity IMO
<Shinmera> and even if it hadn't I wouldn't advise using it
<antoszka> I quite liked it as a "common proposal"
<Shinmera> for one, I would not want to debug or contribute to a library written in CL21
<LdBeth> One advantage of CL is merely no softwares would be fully obsoleted
<LdBeth> I don’t expect someone to debug my personal scripts
<antoszka> Unless it uses non-ANSI implementation-specific stuff, towards which there may be no guarantees
<Guest74201> if anyone has an idea for another name for "slot-value," ideas welcome. Most languages have x.y. (slot-value x 'y) is a bit much. (field x 'y) or (. x y). This is for my little language, not CL.
<ecraven> ref
<LdBeth> gg
<Shinmera> Guest74201: That's what accessors are for
<Guest74201> thanks ecraven
<ecraven> Guest74201: but as Shinmera said, that should only be used for reflection, not for normal access, that's what accessors are for
<LdBeth> Is there any way to alias symbols like how Emacs Lisp’s defalias does?
<Shinmera> I don't understand the purpose of defalias
<Shinmera> If you just want to copy the function definition to another symbol you can do (setf (fdefinition 'new) (fdefinition 'old))
<ecraven> Shinmera: the only situation where I imagine it makes sense is when the name changes, but you want to keep the old one around for some time
<LdBeth> I would like to have the definition of new symbol changes corresponded to the old symbol
<Shinmera> You can't do that.
<Shinmera> Unless you write a macro that updates the new symbol in the same definition as the old one.
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<LdBeth> I guess it’s due to language implementation
<LdBeth> difference
<Shinmera> I don't see the point in what you're trying to do either.
<jack_rabbit> Is there a standard way to make an object "dumpable" ?
<Shinmera> By dumpable do you mean writeable to a FASL?
<Shinmera> as a literal
<jack_rabbit> Yes.
<LdBeth> Maybe used to solve compatibility issue?
<Shinmera> clhs make-load-form
<jack_rabbit> Shinmera, thanks.
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<Shinmera> LdBeth: if you need to be compatible in a library I suggest just copying the fdefinition.
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<LdBeth> Shinmera: okay.
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<scymtym> for backward compatible API changes, it can be useful to keep the old function, make it call the new function, mention its deprecation in the documentation string and maybe use a compiler macro or an implementation-specific mechanism to issue compile-time warnings for uses of the old function
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<p_l> a small lambda is better than defalias
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<jack_rabbit> Has anyone dealt with trying to save an image after compiling a file, the compilation of which causes threads to be spawned?
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<loke> jack_rabbit: THreads created by compiling?
<loke> Wow. That's... terrible.
<JuanDaugherty> if they've terminated it shouldn't matter
<JuanDaugherty> if they havent' you shouldn't be saving
<jack_rabbit> Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to avoid it. It seems undesirable.
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<jack_rabbit> Basically, I've moved some computation to compile-time, but it involves the mcclim library, and it seems to launch CLX threads even if I'm not trying to start an application.
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<loke> jack_rabbit: You just waint until my new font renderer lands in McCLIM
<jack_rabbit> loke, Yes, I'm really excited for that, actually. :)
<loke> you'll be loading the freetype and harfbuzz libraries just by loading McCLIM :-)
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<jack_rabbit> Hmmm... It seems CLIM-INTERNALS:FIND-PORT is called when trying to read a bitmap, even though the result is unused.
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<loke> jack_rabbit: Here's a screenshot: https://photos.app.goo.gl/TgvfebcQnw3a3niz1
<jack_rabbit> ohhhh that's sick.
<loke> Somewhat better than before.
<loke> I'm working on bidirectional support now so that you can mix arabic and english :-)
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<loke> jack_rabbit: Code here, in case you're brave enough to try: https://github.com/lokedhs/McCLIM/tree/freetype2
<jack_rabbit> Aha! Of course. I can just pass :port nil, and it won't call FIND-PORT.
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<jack_rabbit> I shall do so forthhence!
<jack_rabbit> posthaste!
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<jack_rabbit> loke, harfbuzz is a dep?
<loke> jack_rabbit: Yes.
<jack_rabbit> ok, had to grab the headers.
<jack_rabbit> loke, lol. Well, it's doing something.
<jack_rabbit> hangon, I'll do a screencap.
<loke> In most distributions, Harfbuzz is compiled in together with freetype, but it's an explicit dependency since some distros don't do that.
<loke> Yes. You need the headers. It's using CFFI-Grovel.
<jack_rabbit> loke, https://imgur.com/a/N57iF
<jack_rabbit> I'm getting weird greens and oranges.
<loke> You might be using a font with poor hinting.
<loke> Does it happen for all fonts?
<jack_rabbit> Don't know, I'm using the default font.
<jack_rabbit> Let me figure out how to change fonts.
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<loke> (clim:make-face "Family here" Facehere")
<loke> Sorry
<loke> oops
<loke> (clim:make-text-style "DejaVuSans" "Book" 20)
<loke> That's an example
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<loke> You can also try (setq clim-freetype::*enable-autohint* t)
<loke> (however, if you do that, you need to do it before starting any clim application the first time, since it caches the prerendered glyphs_
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<jack_rabbit> ahh, dejavu is much better.
<jack_rabbit> except for the asterisks. Let me try the autohint.
<loke> Sone fonts are really terrible. I need to figure out the right fontconfig query to filter out the bad ones.
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<jack_rabbit> the autohint really helps. Should that be T by default?
<loke> jack_rabbit: I haven't decided :-)
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<loke> I've noticed various results. Still something that requires research.
<loke> I also need to improve the font fallback mechanism.
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<jack_rabbit> well really cool.
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<loke> Thanks. The whole purpose of this was actually to be able to render my maths equations in mt Maxima client. Talk about rabbit hole.
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* scymtym pictures a yak tumbling down a rabbit hole
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<loke> scymtym: Yeah, pretty much.
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<mfiano> Guest74201: There is the defstar library for "defun with types", but note that it has a toxic GPLv3 license.
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<jackdaniel> quite judgamental phrasing ;)
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<jackdaniel> loke: nice progress :)
<loke> jackdaniel: thanks :-)
<loke> Kensanata had written a Bidi library for Emacs many years ago. I just ported it :-)
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<ebrasca> mfiano: GPLv3 is not toxic
<ebrasca> mfiano: GPLv3 is good
<theemacsshibe[m]> GPL doesn't go far enough
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<theemacsshibe[m]> Anyone who turns a profit on someone else's code should have to pay them for doing the work for them.
<TMA> ebrasca: what is good depends on your goals
<ebrasca> TMA: Why is gpl toxic?
<ebrasca> There is good software with GPLv3
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<mfiano> GPLv3 is not compatible with a vast array of libraries. defstar would probably get a bit more attention and use if it had a more forgiving license.
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<jackdaniel> but calling it toxic may be considered a harsh opinion
<mfiano> Sorry to start a war. It isn't compatible with the code I write, or most of its transitive dependencies, is all I meant.
<jackdaniel> nobody calls java toxic for instance despite lawsuits and such
<TMA> ebrasca: mfiano said it concisely
<jackdaniel> suro, getting back to els :)
<loke> jackdaniel: Havbe fun!
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<ebrasca> mfiano: Ok
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<TMA> ebrasca: I have written several pieces of GPL'd software. That was C/C++ though. On the other hand GPL'd lisp code is a strange beast. There is still that interpretation that you cannot run it on a non-gpl implementation (because then you are combining it). LLGPL does not help, it has its own problems.
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<Shinmera> Ah, just what I needed to distract myself from my trainwreck of a talk: license debate
<TMA> ebrasca: copyright is broken in general, copyright as applied to software even more so.
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<ebrasca> I use MIT for software for mezzano and GPL for other.
<ebrasca> TMA: What license do you recomend for lisp software?
<ebrasca> Some people recomended me GPL in #fsf , #gnu and #parabola
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<drunk_foxx[m]> > TMA: What license do you recomend for lisp software?
<drunk_foxx[m]> LLGPL - Lisp Lesser GPL
<drunk_foxx[m]> Just giving an idea
<theemacsshibe[m]> I suggest the Cooperative Software License
<theemacsshibe[m]> A friend and I made it based on the Peer Production License, which is an arty license for art people based on CC BY NC SA. Ours has software specific terms too.
<TMA> ebrasca: there is no silver bullet. asking for a license recomendation in #fsf and #gnu is like asking an insurance salesman whether you should be insured
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<TMA> ebrasca: it is difficult because of many reasons, the international aspects of copyright among them
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<phoe> How can I tell Emacs to indent my CL code the way CCL code is indented?
<phoe> For instance, IF forms indented by 2 spaces instead of 4.
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<Shinmera> ebrasca: Sabra did a survey on Quicklisp libraries and evaluated the frequency of licenses. https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/quicklisp-library-trivia
<mfiano> phoe: By slapping SLIME around a bit, or using Shinmera's trivial-indent
<Shinmera> MIT is by far the most frequent.
<mfiano> Which I wish supported Sly
<Shinmera> mfiano: It's coming in the next release
<mfiano> Yay
<phoe> mfiano: I remember that there was some kind of switch that did that thing, I just can't find it at the moment
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<Shinmera> phoe: slime-indentation contrib is needed for trivial-indent to work
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<TMA> theemacsshibe[m]: oy, I am reading the first paragraph and I am already lost, because it necessitates to pull in yet another whole branch of law (the contract law)
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<phoe> Shinmera: thanks.
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<mfiano> Does the standard have a type definition for "string designator" or should I just define my own?
<TMA> theemacsshibe[m]: also the title is "COOPERATIVE SOFTWARE LICENSE" but the text refers to "COPYFARLEFT PUBLIC LICENSE" ; the aforementioned notwithstanding and incomprehensibility irregardless wherefore as ammended forthwith the contents thereof including but not limited to any and all words and phrases (as defined), articles, conventions and covenants is in whole and in parts almost but not quite entirely unlike huh?
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<theemacsshibe[m]> Umm
<phoe> mfiano: alexandria:string-designator
<mfiano> Thanks
<phoe> np
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<theemacsshibe[m]> It's describing itself
<theemacsshibe[m]> It says this
<TMA> ebrasca: do not use a license you feel you need to have explained by a lawyer in order to understand.
<mfiano> Do not use a license that hasn't been tested in a court.
<TMA> ebrasca: the chances are it says something completely different than you think.
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<edgar-rft> Hmm, I'm just asking myself if my driver's license is GPL compatible...
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<TMA> legal documents are similar to obfuscated code. a comma in a single sentence on page four means that the fourth paragraph on page 13 interact with the second sentence of the first paragraph of page 2 in a manner that is in complete opposition to the state without that comma present
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<antoszka> :)
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<TMA> one does not read legal documents. one studies them. or more exactly, one reverse engineers them
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<TMA> which is why I hate every single web page with its own terms and conditions. [the same applies to any service provider's terms and their changes - bank, telco, ...]
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<mfiano> What issues would I have by setting the greek small letter lambda to be a macro character for cl:lambda in the default readtable?
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<edgar-rft> your code might no work on non-unicode implementations
<loke> edgar-rft: Arguably, there are no relevant non-Unicode implementations :-)
<loke> That said, it seems like a somewhat pointless change.
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<edgar-rft> mfiano asked "would" and I answered "might" :-)
<JuanDaugherty> but bling
<JuanDaugherty> pointless is next to golden for ur bling
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<ebrasca> I think licenses are hard to understand.
<ebrasca> Thanks for help.
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<ghard> mfiano: why not just use M-x prettify-symbols-mode in emacs?
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<mfiano> ghard: Because it disobeys style conventions by changing the width of a symbol and thus potentially having more columns than preferred.
<ghard> I see
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<mfiano> I dislike editor tricks that separate the data's model from its view. Orgmode is another problem with it's indent mode and visual tricks.
<mfiano> its*
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<loke> Here's a neat new development. AUtomatic RTL detection:
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<smokeink> nice. Do IME's in CLIM work already ?
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<loke> smokeink: No.
<loke> Is it not part of what I am doing.
<loke> I haven't paid attention to it since I don't need it myself.
<Shinmera> Wish I could use freetype in my engine, but unfortunately it pulls in too deep a dependency tree.
<loke> My integrating the ibus stuff shouldn't be overly difficult.
<loke> Shinmera: which engine is that?
<Shinmera> Trial.
<Shinmera> Game engine project thingy.
<Shinmera> I do have a font rendering library that I wrote myself based on stb_truetype, but it has some, uh, things left to be desired
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<loke> smokeink: Are you willing to implement ibus support?
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<smokeink> I am willing but I don't think I am able to do it, yet. As soon as I'll have some free time to dedicate to clim or to other such lisp projects, I'll do it happily
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<clintm> Did I just forget how to use parenscript or was there something changed in the past month or so that's up on QL now? (ps:ps (@ a (b) c)) -> "at(a, b(), c);"
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<clintm> huh. I don't remember having to qualify things inside of (ps) but apparently I do.
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<jasom> clintm: macros in PS are bount to symbols, not strings, just like in CL
<jasom> clintm: functions, on the other hand, are translated to js names, which are namespace-free
<jasom> so the parenscript form (foo bar baz) will be expanded to foo(bar baz) if the symbol FOO is not bound to a PS macro.
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<drunk_foxx[m]> Are there any good places to practice using common lisp except books and websites with some usual (mostly stupid) excercises? Like, libraries that may need routine work, which can be handled by a person who has just started Lisp a couple of months ago or something like that? Any active projects to work on?
<pmetzger> drunk_foxx[m]: There probably are a bunch of such things, but you may have to learn a bit more about the community to find them.
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<Shinmera> A lot of libraries are lacking in documentation and tests
<Shinmera> I'm sure people would welcome if someone added that for them
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<drunk_foxx[m]> That's quite a reasonable point
<drunk_foxx[m]> I will see if I can elaborate on that
<Shinmera> The majority of my libraries are lacking in tests for instance.
<Shinmera> Adding a test suite for Plump would be good since that's something people actually do use.
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<verisimilitude> Do you believe every library needs tests?
<Shinmera> I don't think anything "needs" tests. It's often good to have them, though.
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<pmetzger> I disagree. I think anything people use and plan to use for more than a trivial amount of time needs tests. Otherwise fixing bugs and refactoring code is too dangerous and unpleasant.
<verisimilitude> What about code that doesn't need to be changed?
<pmetzger> Earlier today I merged a bunch of changes from someone else's branch of some code I've been hacking on into mine and pushed out the merge, and the only reason it worked right was there was a test suite I could run to shake out any issues.
<pmetzger> Any code that never needs to be changed ever again doesn't need tests. When you find me such code, let me know. :)
<pmetzger> By definition such code must be perfectly bug free. :)
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<drunk_foxx[m]> Even if it is bug free, there may exist plenty of reasons fot changing the code in the future
<jackdaniel> on the other hand, even if it has bugs it doesn't necessarily mean they must be fixed
<jackdaniel> not all bugs are critical
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<verisimilitude> Look at any working implementation of basic mathematical functions, pmetzger.
<verisimilitude> Alternatively, look at an implementation of IDENTITY.
<verisimilitude> Now, it's clear that code can and is perfectly bug free or else we wouldn't be able to do much of anything.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: Famously, Xavier Leroy had the implementation of basic math functions in OCaml broken for the first six months it was in use. Tests would have caught that.
<pmetzger> If you don't believe you need such things, that is up to you.
<Shinmera> *the right tests would have caught that
<pmetzger> Shinmera: naturally.
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<Shinmera> writing useful tests is a lot of effort. Effort and time I usually don't have to offer.
<pmetzger> Anyway, these days I prefer for things to be more than simply tested but actually formally verified, but tests are at least required. I fire programmers who don't want to put tests in their code and who don't want to document their code. OTOH, one doesn't need to operate to please _me_ unless you work for me.
<verisimilitude> So, do you believe you can write tests perfectly, pmetzger?
<verisimilitude> It always boils down to a place where mistakes can be made.
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<pmetzger> verisimilitude: Imperfect tests written well beat non-existent tests.
<verisimilitude> I'd be inclined to disagree.
<verisimilitude> I'm also inclined to believe the way tests are done nowadays is a fad, like so many other things in programming nowadays.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: But again, you don't need to do as I suggest. That said, I fire people for refusing, and won't collaborate with people who refuse to. I have no tolerance for cowboys. But your milage may vary. Live as you wish, not to please me.
<fouric> is someone really a "cowboy" if they would rather not write tests at all than write flawed tests
<pmetzger> It's a silly dichotomy because you can write reasonable tests.
<pmetzger> And all tests will also be buggy (except if you do formal verification).
<Aequus> Write tests for the tests!
<jackdaniel> I know it as a fact that maintaining test suite pays off on fewer regressions
<pmetzger> TDD has you test the tests by first running the test without having the feature implemented. It's crude but works.
<jackdaniel> invalid tests happen sometimes and they waste time, but in general it pays off well
* fouric nods
<pmetzger> +1
<pmetzger> it gives you such pleasant agility. you aren't scared to make big changes any more because you can check if your changes worked.
<verisimilitude> You can also just write reasonable code to begin with.
<jackdaniel> if you write unreasonable code tests won't help anyway ,)
<drunk_foxx[m]> > Anyway, these days I prefer for things to be more than simply tested but actually formally verified, but tests are at least required. I fire programmers who don't want to put tests in their code and who don't want to document their code.
<drunk_foxx[m]> Somewhat related to the discussion: what do you think about literate programming compared to the standard process of documenting/commenting the code?
<pmetzger> Anyone who thinks they will always write the correct code the first time out isn't to be trusted.
<pmetzger> Literate programming is really great for manuals and teaching. It seems to not work for writing real software though.
<Shinmera> drunk_foxx[m]: I think it sucks, but that's just me.
<drunk_foxx[m]> I've recently found this topic somewhat controversial in the lisp community
<pmetzger> Knuth did well with it for writing TeX but it doesn't seem to work really well in practice.
<pmetzger> That said, solid comments are also useful, but one needs to know what one is commenting.
<pmetzger> And why.
<pmetzger> I have seen amazing examples of the use of literate programming for creating textbooks and manuals though.
<pmetzger> like "Software Foundations" is 100% written as literate Coq code.
<pmetzger> It's very cool.
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<verisimilitude> I always write documentation strings, drunk_foxx[m], which I believe is roughly halfway to full literate programming.
<Shinmera> docstrings are orthogonal to literate programming
<verisimilitude> Lisp is also very flexible with ordering, which helps.
<pmetzger> I agree. Docstrings are documentation for users of an interface, not documentation of code itself.
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<verisimilitude> I'm inclined to believe the interactivity of Lisp trumps literate programming.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: I don't see what those two have to do with each other at all.
<Shinmera> pmetzger: It's not just that, it's that literate programming is a description of how to organise documentation whereas docstrings are a way of attaching documentation to definitions.
<Shinmera> They're separate concepts.
<verisimilitude> So, literate programming is effectively preparing to make the program as if a book.
<pmetzger> Shinmera: That's much of what I meant. I agree.
<jackdaniel> actually docstrings are merely a reminders what the function does
<verisimilitude> With Lisp, you can simply load the program and explore it that way.
<jackdaniel> I find it hard to agree that they are a documentation
<jackdaniel> s/a/the/
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<verisimilitude> Greater documentation, such as the reason for the overall structure of the system, isn't encompassed by this, however.
<pmetzger> jackdaniel: A real manual is better, but these days the equivalent of docstrings in other languages (like javadoc and the like) are often all you get. :(
<verisimilitude> I prefer to separate this information from the rest of the program, though.
<jasom> jackdaniel: docstrings are just strings; you could put an entire man page in a doc string, and it would be API documentation. You could put the text for the wikipedia page for a mongoose, and it's not documentation.
<drunk_foxx[m]> In my humble opinion, it's quite essential what the concept of literate programming whas inspired by - Knuth was a user of such languages like Pascal, Java, C and C++, and they lack in readability a lot, unlike Lisp with its AST structure, for instance; that basically means LP is much less useful for Lispers just due to the features of the language itself
<pmetzger> Knuth never used Java or C++ to my knowledge. They come after his time.
<drunk_foxx[m]> However I may be too biased about that
<Shinmera> drunk_foxx[m]: Nah
<pmetzger> I don't know if he ever was a real C user.
<pmetzger> And you can write unreadable code in any language, including Lisp.
<jackdaniel> jasom: sure, but are we talking about theoretical possibilities or what people usually mean by doscstrings?
<jasom> fwiw, Here's an example of what CWEB looks like (a C literate programming tool) https://www.imperialviolet.org/binary/critbit.pdf
<pmetzger> CWEB wasn't built by knuth.
<Shinmera> I hate literate programming just as much as docstrings next to the definitions. It's distracting me from the code. Put the documentation elsewhere.
<jackdaniel> pmetzger: agreed, but that doesn't make them documentation
<verisimilitude> That's what I was getting at, yes, drunk_foxx[m].
<verisimilitude> It seems suited to static languages.
<drunk_foxx[m]> > CWEB wasn't built by knuth.
<drunk_foxx[m]> Wikipedia disagrees on that, but I didn't dive into much detail about the history of CWEB, so not sure
<pmetzger> I like having docstrings in code. Before such things existed, comments before functions explaining their interfaces were common. They're still common in other languages.
<pmetzger> WEB and TANGLE were built by Knuth. TeX was ported to C after TeX's initial completion.
<drunk_foxx[m]> > And you can write unreadable code in any language, including Lisp.
<drunk_foxx[m]> That's undoubtable, I just think some are more "naturally readable" than others. Again, biased
<pmetzger> Silvio Levy was the CWEB guy (I think.)
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<verisimilitude> It makes me think of how C programmers go ``gee wiz'' with their grep and their lint and their memory leak detectors, where all of that is terrible and also effectively useless with a decent programming language.
<jasom> pmetzger: the question Shinmera is raising (I think) isn't docstrings v. no docstrings, but docstrings next to the function definition vs. docstrings elsewhere. Without some way of attaching comments to a function, you must put them in the source adjacent to the function. With a lisp system, you can query the function's documentation through your IDE.
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<Shinmera> Yes. I put the docstrings in a separate file because I hate lots of vertical space that's spent on stuff other than code.
<jasom> verisimilitude: linting tools are useful in most programming language; they are particularly useful in untyped language like lisp (style warnings are a type of linter, for example).
<pmetzger> You can always manipulate docstrings in lisp away from the definition, but I think it's bad style. While reading the code you want to read the same information.
<verisimilitude> I mean the braindead UNIX lint, jasom.
<pmetzger> C and Lisp are at different parts of the stack. The fact that even (say) SBCL has C code in the implementation kind of tells you something there.
<verisimilitude> Something else that separates a Lisp style warning and UNIX lint is how the system already has the code; it doesn't need to parse the code separately.
<verisimilitude> This entirely eliminates idiocy like C++ syntax being understood differently by different compilers, because it only has to be understood once and then disregarded.
<pmetzger> C is, as it happens, pretty bad at what it does, but part of that was what was possible in 1970 vs what you can do now (see Rust for example.)
<verisimilitude> So, you've never read The UNIX-HATERS Handbook, have you?
<verisimilitude> UNIX was shit in the 1970s and it's still shit.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: if you say so.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: I think I read the Unix Haters Handbook stuff before it was published (it mostly came from posts to a mailing list) but I haven't looked at it since. A lot of it was bitter comments from random ITS types etc.
<verisimilitude> Rust is just the modern effeminate man's Ada.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: so you think there's something wrong with being effeminate? are you a homophobe?
<verisimilitude> APL, Lisp, and many other advanced languages were all invented before C.
<verisimilitude> I was making a joke about the Rust userbase.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: by calling them homosexuals, yes.
<pmetzger> which implies there's something wrong with homosexuality.
<verisimilitude> Of course, yes.
<verisimilitude> Well, it's not related much to Lisp, but yes, I do.
<pmetzger> verisimilitude: you do get that if you said that IRL it might not be physically safe for you, yes?
<pmetzger> just noting.
<verisimilitude> Of course, just noting.
<Shinmera> Please refrain from such comments here.
<verisimilitude> I've noticed that's a common response, an implied threat; of course, Shinmera.
<theemacsshibe[m]> > verisimilitude: so you think there's something wrong with being effeminate? are you a homophobe?
<theemacsshibe[m]> What did I miss?
<Shinmera> Nothing because it's off topic
<Shinmera> Move on.
<pmetzger> theemacsshibe[m]: He was saying Rust users are homosexuals to insult them.
<Shinmera> Please move on.
<verisimilitude> Just read the backlog, theemacsshibe[m].
<pmetzger> theemacsshibe[m]: implying it is an insult of course.
<Shinmera> pmetzger: That goes for you too
<theemacsshibe[m]> That's quite rude to gay people. My datefriend is much better than any Rust user.
<verisimilitude> I didn't mean to derail the conversation, if that helps, Shinmera.
<verisimilitude> It was meant as an aside.
<Shinmera> I don't care just everybody shut the fuck up about this already jesus.
<theemacsshibe[m]> They tried to learn Scheme once
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<theemacsshibe[m]> Enough garbage collection, let's get back to literate programming again.
<theemacsshibe[m]> I like LP, it's like reading a maths textbook where the author walks you through the problem very verbosely.
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<Josh_2> verisimilitude: the banter is strong with you xD
<theemacsshibe[m]> I'm pretty sure most LP programs have splitting functions which isolate the code and the documentation so you can just use either.
<verisimilitude> Yes, Josh_2; say, has anyone else had issues with CCL being unable to find its queer little database it uses; I've been unable to do some work under it and, using GuixSD, am reluctant to directly modify anything related to it.
<verisimilitude> I'm also having issues conditionally loading this code, because CLISP whines about the #$ reader macro.
<Josh_2> You said queer
<Josh_2> that might hurt some feel feels
<Josh_2> also I don't use CCL so I canny halp
<phoe> This was one wonderful ELS
<Josh_2> Is it over already?
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<sjl> Sad I missed it. Maybe next year.
<phoe> Yes, it is over - though people are staying for longer since Marbella is just that pretty
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<Josh_2> make a lil holiday out of it
<phoe> I wish I could, gotta get back to Poland though.
<jcowan> Am I right to think that whereas block names have both lexical scope and dynamic extent, catch tags have indefinite scope and dynamic extent?
<Shinmera> catch tags have dynamic scope.
<rme> ccl expects to find the interface db (darwin-x86-headers64/ or whatever) in the #p"ccl:" directory. By default, that's the same directory as the heap image file. You should be able to set the environment variable CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY if that is not right.
<pmetzger> catch tags have dynamic scope / extent.
<jackdaniel> jcowan: block has lexical scope and extent
<verisimilitude> I'll try that; I appreciate the assistance, rme.
<jackdaniel> trying to call return-from from to non-existing block (i.e from escaped function) signals a condition
<jackdaniel> same applies to tagbody/go
<jackdaniel> indefinite scope of catch would imply continuations of some sort
<Shinmera> or worse: unconditional jumps
<Xof> ELS is over (sad face)
<jackdaniel> it was great though
<Xof> and I didn't even manage to tell didier that I have a fix for all his method-combination issues
<theemacsshibe[m]> Are there any interesting lisp shows in Melbourne Australia? Not the Florida one.
<Xof> it was a very good ELS
<Xof> in terms of setting, second favourite location (after Zadar)
<Xof> but with 3x the number of attendees as Zadar, so overall probably hits #1
<Xof> Genova next year, April 1-2 (put it in your diaries now!)
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<verisimilitude> It's interesting, rme.
<verisimilitude> So, the GuixSD CCL expects to find this, I've omitted the /gnu/store/ path:
<verisimilitude> /lib/x86-headers/libc/constants.cdb
<verisimilitude> There's a /lib/ there, but no x86-headers/, no libc/, and not a single cdb file.
<verisimilitude> I suppose this is something for #guixsd, at this point.
<verisimilitude> This is the default location it checks, by the by.
<verisimilitude> I'll remember that environment variable, though.
<verisimilitude> That's #guix, not #guixsd.
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<Xof> huh
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