jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<verisimilitude> That's interesting, ldb.
<minion> verisimilitude, memo from ldb: seem you used something like `&aux (&optional ...)' in `cl-ecma-48', but Clozure CL I use complains about that because lambda list keywords are specially treated in ccl
<verisimilitude> Now, I'll double check, but I don't believe lambda list keywords are barred from being BOUND, since they're not FBOUND.
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<verisimilitude> >If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is not defined as a standardized function, macro, or special operator, it is allowed to lexically bind it as a function (e.g., with flet), to declare the ftype of that binding, and (in implementations which provide the ability to do so) to trace that binding.
<verisimilitude> Well, that's the wrong paragraph, actually.
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<verisimilitude> >If an external symbol of the COMMON-LISP package is not globally defined as a standardized dynamic variable or constant variable, it is allowed to lexically bind it and to declare the type of that binding, and it is allowed to locally establish it as a symbol macro (e.g., with symbol-macrolet).
<verisimilitude> So, there's nothing in the standard that explicitly disallows this, either.
<verisimilitude> So, the issue is with CCL, it seems.
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<verisimilitude> So, the issue is with CCL and I'm reluctant to change a program purely because an implementation is defective.
<verisimilitude> What do you think?
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<Bike> i think a lambda list like that is confusing because it does different things if the lambda list is destructuring
<Bike> it's probably technically okay though
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<ldb> verisimilitude: but i think &OPTIONAL is standard keyword
<ldb> verisimilitude: other & prefixed symbols are ok thou
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<ldb> verisimilitude: anyway for me it it not a pain to patch it by my self
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<rme> "All symbols whose names begin with & are conventionally reserved for use as lambda-list keywords and should not be used as variable names. Implementations of Common Lisp are free to provide additional lambda-list keywords."
<sjl> Shinmera: does 3d-vectors have a way to get the distance between two vectors that doesn't require allocation/mutation? (vlength (v- v1 v2)) works but conses
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<sjl> I could write it myself but figured I might have missed it since the docs claim "It contains most of the vector operations one would usually expect out of such a library" ;)
<rme> Although that is a quotation from CLTL2, so feel free to argue against it, I suppose.
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<verisimilitude> It doesn't seem like there's an equivalent restriction in the HyperSpec, rme.
<verisimilitude> What precisely does CCL do with them, I wonder.
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<ldb> verisimilitude: seems CCL use MEMQ to match lambda list keywords. see `verify-lambda-list' https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/003917cbbce90b7a7b5fa4bf90e9fe424e5637e9/level-1/l1-clos-boot.lisp
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<krwq> what's currently recommended way to setup tests? I used to add perform method which loads the system and does symbol-call in my asd file but after upgrading sbcl I'm getting warnings about deprecated recursive use of (ASDF/OPERATE:OPERATE 'ASDF/LISP-ACTION:LOAD-OP...
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<verisimilitude> What's your opinion on this issue, ldb; do you think CCL violates the standard by disallowing this?
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<ldb> verisimilitude: CCL's code base is quite old, and since CLTL2 mentioned that and CLHS seems has no spec about it, I won't consider it as violation. One more reason I discourage to use `&' prefixed words as variables is it confuses syntax highliting.
* ldb and worong syntax highliting confuses users
<verisimilitude> I found that more interesting than anything; so much of the Emacs Common Lisp syntax highlighting is unintelligent to the point of amusing more than frustrating.
<verisimilitude> However, since CLTL2 does mention it, I suppose it's worth changing.
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<verisimilitude> Since it's a small change and all of that.
<verisimilitude> Regardless, it's still disappointing.
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<verisimilitude> Anyway, I'll have it changed and updated later.
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<ldb> i agree with your comments on emacs, lem is way better on syntax things
<beach> Good morning everyone!
<ldb> gudo morjing and which time zone are you in, beach
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<beach> UTC+1, but consider this: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
<beach> sorry, +2 now.
<ldb> wow, 6 am is early
<beach> It's a genetic defect in my family.
<ldb> thanks for your link
<beach> Sure.
<verisimilitude> I always simply avoid using a specific greeting.
<verisimilitude> Then again, I'm also careful to change idioms and whatnot to ``writing'' rather than ``speaking'' or ``talking'' when using a medium like this.
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<verisimilitude> How would one pronounce ``ugt'', anyway; I'd figure ``ugh'' with a hard ``t'' sound at the end.
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<ldb> verisimilitude: many words are not intented to be pronunced. e.g. ldbeth
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<verisimilitude> Sure, but that won't stop me from trying.
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<epony> hi and bye kind of work timeless
* ldb đźš„
<epony> also ku is universal
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<k-hos> wh- nick highlight strikes again
<epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin-dza-dza!#Plukanian_language
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<epony> verisimilitude maybe it is pronounced UGT as spelled out letters :-)
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<verisimilitude> That's awful.
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<verisimilitude> The cl-ecma-48.lisp file is updated, but I've not updated the cl-ecma-48.tgz file, yet.
<ldb> thanks
<ldb> load success
<verisimilitude> Alright then.
<verisimilitude> I was careful to double check my searching and replacing, but do tell me if it doesn't work, which means I made a mistake somewhere with that.
<verisimilitude> Then again, you were probably loading that to load ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, I suppose.
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<asarch> One stupid question: how would you create a function at runtime? Can you give me please an example
<verisimilitude> Use LAMBDA.
<k-hos> eval would be one way I believe
<verisimilitude> (defun example (n) (lambda (m) (+ n m)))
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<k-hos> I assumed making the function body at runtime
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<LdBeth> use high older function
<LdBeth> AKA lambda or closure
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<asarch> Thank you
<asarch> Thank you very much guys :-)
<verisimilitude> You don't need EVAL, k-hos.
<verisimilitude> You can use FUNCTION.
<LdBeth> •high order•
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<verisimilitude> The cl-ecma-48.tgz is now also updated.
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<verisimilitude> Actually, that's an old version of the code; I suppose I forgot to upload the latest version.
<verisimilitude> Oh well; I'll do it later.
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<verisimilitude> So, what are you all working on lately?
<beach> minion: Please tell verisimilitude about SICL.
<minion> verisimilitude: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
<beach> minion: Please tell verisimilitude about Cleavir.
<minion> verisimilitude: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
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<LdBeth> beach: so, start from an assembler?
<beach> No.
<beach> I am using the full Common Lisp language to implement Common Lisp.
<LdBeth> I guess I’ve read your paper
<beach> The code generator of the compiler will obviously contain a few lines of assembler, of course.
<beach> LdBeth: I don't think I have a published paper on the basic organization of SICL or Cleavir. I am waiting until I have a more complete system.
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<verisimilitude> That's interesting, beach.
<beach> Thanks.
<verisimilitude> I also have ambitions to eventually create a Common Lisp system, but I'm currently working on a machine code development environment, so that's a ways away.
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<beach> Are you saying that the current work is a step on the way?
<LdBeth> I’m looking for reading materials on tech details of making such a CL compiler
<verisimilitude> The machine code development environment is in-progress, which prevents me from using it to work on a Common Lisp implementation is what is meant.
<beach> LdBeth: You won't find much detail in the literature.
<beach> LdBeth: There is Lisp in Small Pieces of course.
<verisimilitude> Now, beach, I take it this implementation uses :SICL in *FEATURES*, right?
<LdBeth> But all I find useful is general designs such as Compliers Principles
<beach> verisimilitude: I am trying to figure out how developing a Common Lisp system would depend on a machine code environment.
<beach> verisimilitude: It is far from done, but it would probably use something like that, yes.
<beach> LdBeth: Lisp in Small Pieces is a good book to start with.
<verisimilitude> So, I intend to write most of the COMMON-LISP package in Common Lisp, implementing primitives and whatnot in machine code.
<verisimilitude> Will this implementation provide its own mechanism to exit; if so, I'll add it to SHUT-IT-DOWN already.
<loke> Is there a way to print a symbol using the conventions of readtable-case :INVERT, without actually changing the readtable?
<beach> verisimilitude: Let's discuss that in a few years when I have made some more progress.
<verisimilitude> Alright, but I may not be here in a few years.
<beach> Oh well.
<verisimilitude> Writing a language entirely in itself can be interesting, but I find it much easier to simply write the base in something else.
<verisimilitude> You could implement the printing function yourself, loke.
<beach> verisimilitude: I tried that technique and it is very painful.
<verisimilitude> The readtable controls reading, not printing, of course.
<beach> verisimilitude: I think you will agree with me once you try it.
<verisimilitude> I find it much easier to think about having precise control over the compiled result if it's not written in itself.
<beach> Good luck with that.
<verisimilitude> Thank you.
<verisimilitude> It's still many years away, though.
<LdBeth> That’s why I think the assembler should come out first
<verisimilitude> So, what is the draw of this SICL; how does it distinguish itself?
<beach> verisimilitude: I'll follow your progress with great interest.
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<verisimilitude> This is my website; I don't currently have any material on this planned Common Lisp implementation, however.
<beach> verisimilitude: http://metamodular.com/sicl.pdf
<loke> verisimilitude: Not true.
<verisimilitude> I've been giving it a decent amount of mulling elsewhere, though.
<loke> The current readtable affects how symbolsa re printed
<verisimilitude> I won't check; I suppose I was mistaken, then.
<verisimilitude> In that case, why not simply rebind it temporarily, loke?
<beach> verisimilitude: If you have any questions about SICL, I'll be happy to answer them. But right now, I am off to run some errands.
<loke> verisimilitude: I do, but I find it a bit ugly. But perhaps I have the wrong sense of æthetics.
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<verisimilitude> Alright; it's not currently easy for me to view a PDF, though.
<verisimilitude> A brief summary of a sentence or so, if possible, would be appreciated, when you get the time, beach.
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<bjorkint0sh> how come? are you on a text-only terminal or something, verisimilitude?
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<phoe> verisimilitude: SICL is a highly modular CL implementation written in CL and bootstrapped from CL.
<verisimilitude> I use Emacs with Ghostscript to read PDFs, but my GuixSD X11 Emacs is currently defective; I'm using no-x Emacs, currently.
<verisimilitude> Alright, phoe; it's appreciated.
<LdBeth> Sounds ironic
<verisimilitude> Why?
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<LdBeth> Because Emacs is defective on Linux. Although I know that is not rare.
<verisimilitude> You use Vim, right?
<LdBeth> No. I use GNU/Emacs and XEmacs
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<bjorkint0sh> what the blazes is GuixSD?
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<LdBeth> But on a Mac
<bjorkint0sh> huh.
<LdBeth> bjorkint0sh: it uses scheme(Guile) as system wide script language
<bjorkint0sh> remarkable!
<bjorkint0sh> is there a particular advantage to it?
<bjorkint0sh> Guix, ie.
<bjorkint0sh> over other things
<verisimilitude> It doesn't have SystemD.
<verisimilitude> It's endorsed by GNU.
<LdBeth> Which is promoted by RMS.
<Shinmera> It's also off-topic
<bjorkint0sh> right.
<LdBeth> But still experimental
<bjorkint0sh> and lispy.
<LdBeth> Sorry
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<verisimilitude> It's better, though.
<bjorkint0sh> (which is on topic. the lispy guile bit)
<verisimilitude> I used it when it was very early and it worked well even then.
<verisimilitude> You configure the entire system in Guile, which is nice.
<LdBeth> bjorkint0sh: we only talk CL here :P
<bjorkint0sh> right! sorry.
<verisimilitude> I would just run X11 and Emacs, but there are a few other things I sometimes need to do that prevent that right now.
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<LdBeth> There was a fork called SXEmacs, which defaults work as login shell
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<bjorkint0sh> does ABCL get used a lot?
<LdBeth> No. Younger people prefer Clojure
<shrdlu68> I, for one, prefer CL.
<loke> shrdlu68: CL is quantifiably better
<shrdlu68> Hmm, wait a minute, am I no longer young?
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<heisig> I think I qualify as 'younger people' and I definitely prefer CL.
<heisig> And I use ABCL occasionally.
<LdBeth> Even you’re still young physically, you mind gets older(and mature) when you start using CL
<loke> ABCL is actually remarkably good.
<jackdaniel> LdBeth: what you say above doesn't make much sense
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<LdBeth> I just expressed my frustration, jackdaniel, yes it isn’t a matter of young or old
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<LdBeth> and it’s hard to judge bad or good
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<hajovonta> good morning
<LdBeth> Morning
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<LdBeth> And good night
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<hajovonta> :)
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<phoe> #+() is dangerous when someone pushes NIL into *features*.
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<phoe> What is better than that? #+(or)?
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<jackdaniel> that's why Newly Implemented Lisp implementation will never work reliably :)
<jackdaniel> #+(or) is a portable solution for that, yes
<phoe> thanks
<Shinmera> I have yet to see an explanation as to why anyone would ever push NIL onto features to begin with.
<jackdaniel> still that's not a good argument for doing things which are semantically wrong
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<Shinmera> #+NIL is significantly easier to read than #+(or) in my opinion.
<phoe> Shinmera: (pushnew nil *features*) is a magical way to break a lot of Lisp code in unexplainable ways
<jackdaniel> just as C is easier to read because you don't have to count the parenthesis ;) I'd say it is a matter of getting used to it, but #+NIL being semantically wrong is a fact from the specification standpoint and the programmer's desired effect
<Shinmera> phoe: Indeed, so why would anyone want to do that?
<jackdaniel> that said – everyone is free to pick his own mistakes
<jackdaniel> (and to defend them)
<shrdlu68> What is the name of that lightweight https proxy people are fond of using?
<phoe> Shinmera: mistakes happen
<Shinmera> nginx?
<shrdlu68> Shinmera: Nope, lighter.
<shrdlu68> and not polipo.
<phoe> and if I wanted to use code that's only incorrect in some circumstances rather than code that's correct period, I'd be using Javascript
<jackdaniel> regarding block comments I find #; reader macro very readable
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<jackdaniel> I'm not using it though
<jackdaniel> (custom reader macro, not something present in the image by default)
<Shinmera> phoe: Whether people write correct code or not has nothing to do with the language.
<phoe> Shinmera: you're right.
<phoe> jackdaniel: how does it differ from #| ?
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<Shinmera> I assume it behaves like #+(or)
<phoe> oh, I see
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<jackdaniel> hm, word "block" was misleading, my bad
<jackdaniel> form comment, ignores next form which is read, so essentially #+(or)
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<Shinmera> Personally I just comment things out. With expand-region bound to C-q, that's just as quick as C-q M-;
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<Xach> Hmm, I wonder if there's an existing easy way to "refactor" the frequent use of a complex accessor into a local variable in emacs.
<Xach> e.g. when (muxform (first (flob-interval rocket))) appears 7 times in a function
<beach> You have to wait for Second Climacs.
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<_death> didn't redshank have something for it
<loke> Xach: symbol-macrolet?
<Xach> M-x symbol-macrolet?
<phoe> you'd need a global macro for that it seems
<Xach> _death: i thought redshank was more simplistic. i'll revisit.
<Xach> I don't think I need a macro at all. I want to bind a value instead of computing it over and over.
<schweers> does quicklisp do any kind of security on the code it loads over the net?
<Xach> Introduce a let binding and replace the text in a form.
<Xach> schweers: no.
<schweers> any plans to change that anytime?
<Xach> schweers: in the near future archive integrity will be checked by signature and digest. but the composition of the archive is still a weak point.
<Xach> there will be confidence that code comes from the expected place, but it might be bad code.
<Xach> Anyway, I can do what I want fairly easily enough manually, with a combination of paredit, some typing, and query-replace.
<Xach> I will check out redshank and do some googling.
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<_death> Xach: I don't use redshank, but I'd likely do something like that with multiple-cursors
<Xach> _death: thanks
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<Xach> /win 3
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<MetaYan> [1;3D[1;3C[1;3D[1;3C
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<epony> English is not my native language, now it tries to be. I always forget one word and have trouble remembering it, there is something wrong with it. Endorse is heard from marketing leaflets waving salesmen with a previous career. Thank you for reminding it to me, verisimilitude.
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<shrdlu68> beach: Your LispOS paper is thought-provoking. Something has to play the role of a kernel, right?
<shrdlu68> I mean, who'll do the scheduling? Call init? Handle devices?
<dlowe> eventually you're going to have to do some inline asm in any kernel
<phoe> shrdlu68: obviously a kernel will have to do that
<phoe> but the fun part is that the kernel is an implementation detail in that paper
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<phoe> as in, the paper AFAIR does not concern itself with scheduling/init/devices, so it can be done in any suitable manner
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<beach> shrdlu68: Yes, there will be a collection of functions and such for dealing with that.
<beach> shrdlu68: However, there does not have to a be a monolithic "kernel".
<beach> Even Multics did not have such a thing.
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<beach> dlowe: There is very likely going to have to be a few lines of assembly-like code here and there. Sure.
<shrdlu68> beach: A so-called micro-kernel?
<beach> No, nor kernel at all.
<beach> Depending on your terminology of course.
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<Shinmera> There is an environment, of course, but not a separate entity that acts as the kernel.
<beach> Right.
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<beach> I am thinking of taking inspiration from I/O Kit from Apple for device drivers, except using CLOS instead of C++ (of course).
<phoe> shrdlu68: as far as I understand beach's reasoning here, there's *something* that does that. What exactly it is and what terminology is used to describe it is an implementation detail.
<shrdlu68> So what do you call this not-kernel?
<beach> shrdlu68: A collection of OS functions and objects.
<beach> shrdlu68: Think a Common Lisp system where some of the code is dedicated to managing devices, scheduling threads, etc.
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<beach> You can name that collection if you like. I don't see the need myself.
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<beach> In Multics, since every program was contained in a segment, the "kernel" was just a collection of segments. You could replace any such segment without rebooting, and every program would instantly see the difference. A device driver could be replaced for instance, or the code for some system call.
<shrdlu68> So the Linux kernel is a collection of OS functions and objects, plus some other thing{,s}.
<beach> Yes, but it also has the nasty property of being monolithic.
<beach> You can't just go in and replace the code for a system call without rebooting.
<verisimi`> Alright; you're welcome, epony.
<beach> shrdlu68: You have to replace the entire thing, and then restart.
<Shinmera> And the kernel lives in a separate world than user-space.
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<beach> Though in the Lisp OS I am thinking of, since most applications would not be able to manipulate raw addresses, there is no particular need to make them execute in a non-privileged state.
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<beach> Applications written in C using the traditional technique would still have to execute unprivileged.
<beach> And they would not be able to manipulate Common Lisp objects directly.
<shrdlu68> I see.
<beach> verisimi`: SICL is different in that it uses more modern programming techniques than most existing implementations, simply because most implementations were written before CLOS existed. And the idea is to make the code simpler, so therefore easier to maintain, than existing systems. This property, I hope, will encourage improvements and optimizations that would be difficult in existing implementations.
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<TMA> beach: it is not entirely accurate. you can change any system call code at runtime, it is a matter of swapping in a different function pointer to the syscall dispatch table. It is just not pleasant and there are problems with C not having a usable notion of CHANGE-CLASS, so you are basically stuck with the data structures you already have
<beach> TMA: Yes, you are right. Forgive me for my pedagogical simplifications.
<shrdlu68> beach: But how do you tell a program is capable of manipulating raw addresses or not?
<Shinmera> shrdlu68: It has to request permission to do so
<beach> shrdlu68: Such a program would have to become a particular subclass of FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECT.
<beach> shrdlu68: And when such an object is called, it would remap the address space. Something that most functions would not need to do.
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<shrdlu68> The clearest difference between the kernel and the not-kernel to me at this point is that a not-kernel does not a need a reboot.
<beach> shrdlu68: In Common Lisp you can't take some arbitrary instructions and create a callable function out of them. You have to go through COMPILE, or equivalent. In Lisp OS, to turn some C code into such a program, you would need some other similar compiler function and it would create the kind of object that remaps the address space.
<beach> shrdlu68: Yes, that's pretty much it.
<beach> shrdlu68: Again, depending on terminology, of course.
<beach> When I hear or use "kernel", I think "monolithic piece of code created by a 1960s linker and that must be replaced entirely in order to update even a single instruction".
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<beach> TMA: And forgive me again for my pedagogical simplifications.
<shrdlu68> beach: Say I have an arbitrary binary that I want to run on your OS, what's the sequence of events from executing it to seeing a "Hello, world!" printed on the screen?
<beach> You won't be able to execute an "arbitrary binary".
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<beach> shrdlu68: It is better if you think Common Lisp than if you think Linux.
<shrdlu68> Ah, so I can only execute certain kinds of objects.
<beach> shrdlu68: Yes, (defun hello-world () (format t "hello world")) for instance.
<beach> It would create a Common Lisp function that would then be callable.
<TMA> I use "kernel" for elevated privileges code (namely when the privilege elevation is hardware assisted)
<beach> TMA: That is certainly a valid way to use the word.
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<beach> TMA: Then, in my Lisp OS, pretty much everything would be the "kernel".
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<TMA> just mentioning it so that there is no confusion, not trying to impose that meaning
<beach> I fully understand.
<beach> And it's a perfectly valid use of the word. Just not very useful for the Lisp OS I am thinking of.
<TMA> how would be "untrusted" code handled then?
<shrdlu68> What if I have C source and want to run it on your OS?
<beach> TMA: I just wrote that a few lines back.
<beach> shrdlu68: I just wrote that a few lines back.
<TMA> sure, it has to go through something like COMPILE to grant the privileges of executing the unsafe parts
<beach> It would have to be compiled with a special compiler to create a special subclass of funcallable-standard-object.
<shrdlu68> That's a lot of work, for all the C-source-like objects out there.
<beach> But I am thinking that such code would be (and should be) unusual.
<beach> shrdlu68: I am not planning to use those.
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<verisimi`> Alright; that's interesting, beach.
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<beach> verisimi`: Thanks.
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<TMA> it becomes problematic when untrusted code can request compilation via the special compiler -- or at least that is my gut feeling
<beach> No more than when a Unix program calls `cc'.
<TMA> the whole purpose of the special compiler is that it allows marking some potentially unsafe code (code that uses raw addresses) as executable
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<TMA> beach: I have understood that it is more like cc followed by modprobe
<beach> No, the purpose is to create a Common Lisp function that, when executed, changes the address mapping so that it can't do anything other than what a standard Unix program can do.
<shrdlu68> The way I understand it, the system simply does not understand unsafe code. It does not know how to run unsafe code.
<beach> It will run such code in its separate address space, just like Unix would do.
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<beach> And it would have to manipulate Common Lisp objects though "file descriptors", i.e. small integers.
<TMA> oh, I have messed up the one that allows to patch the lisp-os's parts involving inline assembly/raw address with the C-programs enabling one
<beach> I don't quite understand why the focus here is on something that I consider totally exceptional, that I would rather not see at all, but that MIGHT be required in SOME VERY unique cases.
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<beach> Patching the Lisp OS would be the same as patching a Common Lisp program, i.e. a function would be replaced, or a class would be redefined, etc.
<shrdlu68> beach: It's a matter of perspective.
<beach> shrdlu68: I think I am entitled to my perspective since I am the author of the specification.
<shrdlu68> beach: Of course, I don't dispute that.
<shrdlu68> beach: Do you have some examples of these unique cases?
<beach> No. That's how unique they are.
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<beach> It wouldn't be a matter of something that somehow is impossible to do the "standard" way.
<beach> Just that someone would be lazy enough to want to incorporate C code rather than writing the equivalent Common Lisp code.
<shrdlu68> It's a Lisp OS, after all.
<beach> Exactly.
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<shrdlu68> I think I get it now. It really is a Lisp OS. Not just an OS written in Lisp, but for running Lisp.
<beach> Correct.
<beach> I think that's in the introduction.
<beach>
<shrdlu68> Kinda need to stress it.
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<beach> First sentence of the intro in fact: A Lisp Operating System (LispOS for short) is not just another operating system that happens to be written in Lisp...
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<shrdlu68> It's like writing a javascript OS, and some fella comes along with his Lisp code...
<shrdlu68> "How do I run this?"
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<beach> shrdlu68: That situation is no different from running Lisp on the "C operating system" called Unix.
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<shrdlu68> I suppose.
<beach> shrdlu68: It is a research project. I am fortunate not to have to care about things like that. It is a project where I attempt to show how much better things could be than what they are. If people don't want better things, there is not much I can do, and it won't say anything about the validity of the project.
<shrdlu68> But not really. But Unix only needs machine instructions to run.
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<beach> Oh, no compiler?
<shrdlu68> I can run an arbitrary binary.
<beach> Sure, yes.
<beach> And that's the reason for most of the security problems we are faced with today.
<shrdlu68> It'll likely segfault, but the point is the system will be happy to exec it.
<beach> Exactly, and that's the reason for most of the security problems we are faced with today.
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<beach> ... which in turn provoked absurdities such as ASLR.
<beach> ... which apparently don't work anyway, and only create problems for application writers.
<shrdlu68> The implication being an OS open to running anything is inherently insecure.
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<beach> Yes, which is why this Lisp OS will not allow that.
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<jmercouris> I disagree, ASLR is not an absurdity
<jmercouris> just because people can make gadgets anyway doesn't invalidate ASLR
<TMA> the security problems are that there is so much code in existence you cannot be expected to audit it before running it compounded with that the people do not behave nicely to each others
<jmercouris> it is a good idea, though admittedely the implementation is lacking
<loke> jmercouris: If your code can never arbitrarily access data by pointer, then it's not needed.
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<jmercouris> loke: Sure, but if someone elses code can, its still needed
<epony> "If you find that you're spending almost all your time on theory, start turning some attention to practical things; it will improve your theories. If you find that you're spending almost all your time on practice, start turning some attention to theoretical things; it will improve your practice."
<beach> jmercouris: You apparently have missed a few hours of discussion.
<jmercouris> Yeah, I just skimmed a little bit above, if this conversation goes deeper and I missed a lot, sorry
<loke> jmercouris: Whose code would that be? In Beach's OS, only the low level kernel code will have that capability (and even then, a very tiny bit of code since the OS itself is written in Lisp).
<beach> jmercouris: The entire argument is that it is absurd because it fixes a problem that should have been fixed differently.
<jmercouris> That I can agree with- kind of
<jmercouris> if fixing it correctly means making a new OS, I think that is a cost very few are willing to bear
<shrdlu68> jmercouris: The channel is logged, though.
<jmercouris> I read the log
<epony> I agree with beach, the problem should have been prevented instead of sorted that way.
<jmercouris> loke: Not only low level code would have that ability, there are ways, especially if you have physical access to the hardware
<beach> jmercouris: You apparently also missed my saying that this is a research project, so there is no real "cost" involved.
<jmercouris> No, I understood, I'm not trying to start a flamewar or anything
<jmercouris> I understand the time/place of your project, and I'm fully in agreement with you
<beach> jmercouris: And you missed that most code in the OS I am thinking of would not have physical access to the hardware.
<jmercouris> I just don't think ASLR is ridiculous
<loke> jmercouris: sure. you could shut the machine down and reboot Linux or something. I'm putting words in beach's mounth here, but I'm pretty sure the project does not intend to prevent that.
<shrdlu68> beach: Careful, McCarthy initially considered LISP only research...
<beach> shrdlu68: I promise to be careful. Thanks. :)
<epony> Some alan kay advocated quick cheap prototyping for engineering problems..
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<jmercouris> loke: I didn't mean like that, I meant while the machine is running
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<beach> jmercouris: And you missed that most code in the OS I am thinking of would not have physical access to the hardware.
<jmercouris> so what's the abstraction layer?
<beach> jmercouris: Common Lisp.
<jmercouris> how can you write an OS that does not interface with the hardware?
<beach> Did I say that?
<beach> I think I wrote "most".
<jmercouris> I guess not
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<epony> jmercouris the machine is a machine code interpreter, how you give the machine the operands is irrelevant given the machine runs and not halts
<loke> beach: Are you going to use some microkernel or something as foundational base, or will you be writing the lowest level code yourself?
<jmercouris> epony: Not sure what you're trying to say here, can you please restate?
<epony> no.
<jmercouris> I imagine it will have to be a microkernel, it makes a lot of sense anyway with the message passing
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<jmercouris> the whole idea of dispatching invokations, feels a lot like lisp
<epony> I can only remove words from the above sentence
<beach> jmercouris: No, we already discussed that. No microkernel.
<jmercouris> epony: I understand your sentence, I don't understand your meaning within the context of this discussion
<jmercouris> interesting, no microkernel... so, a hybrid?
<shrdlu68> beach: Isn't there a LispOS similar to what you're proposing already in existence?
<shrdlu68> Similar to some extent, I suppose.
<beach> shrdlu68: Not that I know. If you find one, I would like to know.
<shrdlu68> I mean, all those historical Lisp OSes...
<beach> shrdlu68: Mezzano is a Lisp OS, but I think it is very different.
<beach> shrdlu68: Well, Genera had no security whatsoever.
<jmercouris> I think Lisp OS were not as beach describes, just OS' with function calls and paired with hardware optimized for common lisp operations
<jmercouris> s/function calls/system calls
<beach> Genera wouldn't fly in today's hostile Internet environment.
<shrdlu68> But it only ran Lisp code, right?
<jmercouris> Ultimately no, it must run assembly
<beach> In fact, it had a C compiler
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<epony> jmercouris I feel this is a beginner class in assembler.
<Shinmera> beach: Have you read about capabilities in the context of security / permissions?
<jcowan> One thing conspicuously missing from the protection scheme is any way to protect the user from themself.
<loke> I wondering if Redox is trying to approach security in some similar way... (there are huge differences of cours,e but the fundamental idea that software should not be allowed to do the wrong thing seems similar)
<beach> Shinmera: Yes, the Lisp OS pointers will be capabilities.
<Shinmera> Great
<jcowan> When everything is mutable and persistent, how are you to stop a brain fart from permanently ruining your system?
<jmercouris> jcowan: restarts ;)
<jcowan> You mean Lisp restarts, or machine restarts? The latter won't work.
<jmercouris> I was joking firstly, but sure, you could write conditions for everything you are afraid of
<beach> jcowan: That's a very good question. In the worst case, the global environment would have to be ditched.
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<jmercouris> you could still mess things up though, even with
<beach> jcowan: I have not given enough thought to a system-wide undo.
<shrdlu68> jcowan: Distribute with highly-available load-balancers ;)
<beach> So here we go again. I suggest something that is way better than anything we have, but it is not accepted because I can't solve problems that no other operating system can solve today.
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<jcowan> Well, one of the things it loses is the ability to throw away a local world and start again, because there is only a global world.
<beach> jcowan: Says who?
<loke> beach: Hey, the more I think about your idea the more I like it.
<jcowan> I think this can be solved by making the notion of worlds explicit.
<beach> jcowan: I already did.
<shrdlu68> Hmm, what about a Linux kernel where the init is a Lisp interpreter?
<shrdlu68> s/kernel/system
<jcowan> You make global Lisp environments explicit, but that's not the same as a whole world, which is more like a VM today.
<beach> loke: Thanks. :)
<jcowan> I like the idea too, which is why I am being hard on it.
<epony> I would not consider arguments from other environments is a decision to not accept something better, but difficulty understanding the foundation.
<epony> *as*
<jcowan> Welll put, epony.
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<loke> beach: In fact, I can't waint until you have something that boots :-)
<beach> Sure. I am just amused by this psychological phenomenon that I recently discovered.
<beach> loke: I'll work harder. Promise.
<jmercouris> shrdlu68: why would you want to do that?
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<loke> beach: :-)
<shrdlu68> jmercouris: It seems to me that would essentially the same as beach's OS, only easier to implement.
<jcowan> To modify a heavily entrenched system, you have to have something that is not only better at certain tasks, but better as a whole. Otherwise, it will always be cheaper to reform the existing system. The way of the revolutionary is very hard.
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<beach> One idea that I have, and that I plan to implement in Second Climacs is to have an implementation of the first-class global environment protocol that allows for incrementally updated environments. Then most things can be undone by discarding selective increments.
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<shrdlu68> jmercouris: But the system would have to be rebooted to patch the kernel.
<jmercouris> shrdlu68: The outcome would be effectively the same, but the security considersations would be very different, you'd still have the Linux kernel running
<beach> jcowan: I have absolutely no illusion that people would be willing to change their habits and ditch their existing systems.
<shrdlu68> Yes. But the init (which we've replaced with a Lisp interpreter) would be the only thing interfacing with the kernel.
<jcowan> I meant a revolution in thinking, not necessarily in doing (though that may follow)
<beach> I see.
<beach> Big "may" though.
<jcowan> Of course.
<beach> Though this kind of discussion is good. It allows me to explain my ideas.
<jcowan> Consider 1830 or 1848.
<loke> shrdlu68: Using Linux would be overkill though, since the lispos wouldn't need processes for example. You'll just need threads.
<jmercouris> shrdlu68: the kernel itself is a massive security vulnerability, anyone who cares about security is NOT running linux
<jmercouris> loke: yes, but using the Linux kernel would give you access to a wealth of drivers
<loke> shrdlu68: So if you want to take an existing kernel, you'll be better off with L4 or something like that.
<jcowan> Anyone who really cares about security has abandoned the use of computers altogether.
<loke> jmercouris: Yes That is the one main benefit.
<jmercouris> jcowan: anyone who cares about security is using openbsd
<jcowan> Throw them all down a big hole in the ground and fill the hole with cement. Then they will truly be secure.
<loke> jmercouris: I care about security and I'm not using Openbsd. I'm writing this from my Qubes OS laptop.
<jmercouris> Qubes OS, that's a name I havn't heard in a while
<loke> Qubes relies on Xen on the lowest level.
<jmercouris> Yeah, I am familiar with it
<loke> jmercouris: QUbes OS 4 was just released.
<shrdlu68> jmercouris: But, in the system I propose, no one else is making syscalls except the Lisp interpreter.
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<jmercouris> shrdlu68: that's not the point, there are vulnerabilities within the kernel that do not require operations in userland, things that the kernel itself handles
<jcowan> Scheme has global environments that are *almost* first class, though most Scheme programmers never give them a thought.
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<jcowan> The current big limitation is that there is no standardized way to create a novel mutable environment.
<shrdlu68> jmercouris: Any OS has to contend with those kinds of risks, though, even a Lisp OS. At least some of it will be implemented in assembly.
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<jmercouris> No doubt, there is no risk-free OS, I'm just pointing out that bringing in the Linux kernel brings a huge red target into a proejct
<beach> shrdlu68: Which part would that be?
<jmercouris> "security through obscurity" is not an accepted practice, but it works pretty well, until it doesn't :P
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<epony> jmercouris What is your current operating system? Do all operating systems have to be one and the same method, only slightly off in their implementation?
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<little_lisper> i want (read) to return nil if it does not gets any input. how do i do it?
<jmercouris> epony: Why does it matter what my OS is?
<jmercouris> I don't use any single OS
<jackdaniel> little_lisper: (read (make-string-input-stream "") nil nil)
<shrdlu68> beach: The scheduler, device drivers, etc.
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<jackdaniel> spec read
<beach> shrdlu68: Absolutely not.
<jackdaniel> clhs read
<jackdaniel> little_lisper: ↑
<beach> shrdlu68: What makes you think that?
<jackdaniel> especially second and third argument
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<jcowan> beach: I also read the Cleavir manual. I was surprised to find no primops that do allocation. How does that work?
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<epony> Not having the same title does not necessarily mean multiple operating systems.
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<beach> jcowan: Because they would not be inlined. It would be a function.
<jackdaniel> shrdlu68: there is nothing heretic with implementing device drivers with C - why CL would be any different?
<epony> Let's try the word environment.
<jackdaniel> Linux does it all over the place :)
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<beach> shrdlu68: I am seriously interested how you came to this conclusion, because you are not alone. And this "urban myth" is problematic to the entire Common Lisp community.
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<little_lisper> thanks jackdaniel
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<beach> jackdaniel: Did mean "inherent" rather than "heretic"?
<jackdaniel> no, I meant heretic - it is not heresy to implement device drivers in languages not being assembler
<jackdaniel> C is not assembler
<beach> Ah, got it.
<beach> little_lisper: I am not sure they understood what you meant by "not gets any input". You might need to explain that.
<jackdaniel> I'm not sure how well such device drivers would play with GC (some have very tight time constraints) etc
<jmercouris> jackdaniel: I imagine the performance would be like a sack of potatoes
<beach> It would be just fine.
<Bike> sacks of potatoes are performant in their own way
<jmercouris> I guess it really depends on the device
<beach> And the GC.
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<jmercouris> I imagine something like a network driver would be fine, I can't imagine a graphical driver being that fast
<jackdaniel> usually gfx drivers "just" program graphical cards
<froggey> beach: you're developing a Lisp OS?
<beach> froggey: Sort of.
<beach> froggey: But I am doing it the other way around from your point of view.
<jackdaniel> jmercouris: so all intense operations are not operating system responsibility
<beach> froggey: Starting with the Common Lisp implementation.
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<jmercouris> jackdaniel: I see, thank you for sharing that, I am not so familiar with driver implementation
<jmercouris> s/I am not so familiar/I know effectively nothing
<jackdaniel> that may be a good hint, that stating bold opinions about performance may be risky
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<jmercouris> Well, I know some, and I venture I know enough to know why drivers are usually not written in Scala or Python
<jmercouris> I don't think it is some big coincidence
<pierpa> And even if it wasn't all done in hardware nowadays, it was already done in software 30 years ago in the lisp machines
<jackdaniel> usually they are written in the same language kernel is written
<jcowan> Mostly because we have no AOT compilers for those languages.
<jcowan> (to machine code, I mean)
<jcowan> There would be no problem in writing a kernel in Ada, and in fact that is the kind of thing Ada was designed for (real-time, bare metal)
<froggey> beach: as opposed to developing the low-level/runtime parts first?
<beach> Yes.
<beach> froggey: And I think we have very different objectives too.
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<jmercouris> jackdaniel: but do they *have* to?
<beach> froggey: Also, as opposed to making it run on bare metal early on.
<froggey> probably. I don't really have any set objectives, I'm just doing things that seem interesting to me
<beach> froggey: Very good plan.
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<LdBeth> jmercouris: as long as the final product is machine code, it’s okay to use any languages that could improve development efficiency
<jackdaniel> jmercouris: in case of Linux - ostensibly yes, in case of Windows - definetely yes, in case of minix - if you mimic C abi you may write it in sbcl why not, other unixes - yes
<beach> froggey: If you feel like it, you can read my specification. If not, that's fine too.
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<little_lisper> thanks to bring it up beach. i have a function which takes arbitary no of args. so i made a fn 'readlist' using read and cons. i want read to return nil if it does get any input i.e. no enter key press. i am a beginner
<froggey> sure, link?
<jmercouris> jackdaniel: and yet, why are there none in any other languages?
<jackdaniel> I don't understand the question
<jmercouris> I am likely to believe it is performance, that is often the reason people use C
<beach> little_lisper: Yeah, that's not the question that was answered.
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<beach> Time for me to go cook dinner. I'll read the logs when I get back.
<jackdaniel> well, if we talk about beliefs - I can't argue with what you believe in
<jmercouris> I've been googling this throughout the course of this conversation, and the arguments are all over the map actually
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<jmercouris> some people say "because that's how it has always been", some say "it is fast", some say "because that is what the kernel is written in"
<jackdaniel> arguments for cargo cult? or what?
<froggey> thanks, I'll have a look
<jmercouris> No, for writing device drivers in C
<jackdaniel> Windows kernel is written in C++ afaik
<jmercouris> I think the lack of a clear consensus means that there must be a multitude of reasons
<jmercouris> anyways, I have to go to the grocery store, brb
<little_lisper> (defun read-list ()
<little_lisper> (let ((n (read *standard-input* nil)))
<little_lisper> nil
<little_lisper> (if (null n)
<little_lisper> (cons n (read-list)))))
<jmercouris> little_lisper: please use a pastebin service
<Shinmera> Oh boy.
<LdBeth> jmercouris: it’s actually nothing to do with run time efficiency, it’s just because Unix is popular and so does C
<little_lisper> sorry jmercouris. i ll from now onwards
<jackdaniel> true, C was defined for the very purpose of writing Unix
<LdBeth> Bye
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<_death> and unix was defined for the purpose of playing spacewar
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<LdBeth> www
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<froggey> jmercouris: in my experience, drivers in CL perform well enough. the biggest sticking point I've found is interaction between the GC & audio playback. if the audio driver doesn't refill the output buffer in time it causes stuttering
<LdBeth> So, my plan is an assembler first, and a non-tradition GC subset of Lisp aims only for high performance, and then layers of Common Lisp for user space applications.
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<semz> froggey: purely out of interest, what experience is that with CL drivers?
<verisimilitude> The C language is used for operating systems because people don't know better and believe others who don't know better.
<Xach> seemz: froggey wrote mezzano, which is a lisp os. perhaps that's what informs his perspective.
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<semz> oh lol, i didn't know he's the author
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<froggey> yes, that's it
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<LdBeth> Unix is a tragedy, people doesn’t know what they are doing and why
<jackdaniel> maybe that's because I don't know better, but I find Unix philosophy (and implementaitons) decent and very usable
<verisimilitude> The UNIX philosophy doesn't exist.
<jackdaniel> but that's offtopic on our side :)
<verisimilitude> It's ostensibly a brand name for simplicity.
<verisimilitude> It's not simple, though, so it fails at that.
<Xach> jackdaniel: the unix-haters handbook is pretty funny and written partly from lisp-machine users' point of view.
<verisimilitude> You may as well claim that urinating follows the, say, jackdaniel philosophy; look at how popular and successful your philosophy is, jackdaniel.
<jackdaniel> Xach: thanks, I've read parts of it
<jackdaniel> verisimilitude: that's not very nice
<jeosol> morning
<LdBeth> And another part from a PDP-10 users’ perspective :F
<LdBeth> Morning, jeosol
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<LdBeth> Feel free to grab a cup of coffee
<jeosol> morning LdBeth,
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<jeosol> Anyone here running a CL application on AWS, if so how do you package things up there? docker? After power outage, I am thinking of starting move bits of my workflow to AWS or other options
<jeosol> I tried installing SBCL, wine, etc, on an AMI instance, it was a pain doing this one by one
<jackdaniel> jeosol: fpm for packaging, clon for binaries delivery and hand-written systemd scripts for daemoning
<jeosol> thanks anyinfo appreciated
<jeosol> ok, thanks jackdaniel
<jeosol> after managing to install sbcl, i figured there as to be a better way of doing this.
<verisimilitude> You dislike that I used your name for the example, jackdaniel?
<jeosol> I would just want to package everything so that on new instance, setup will be easy
<jackdaniel> verisimilitude: I disliked you have used eristic 'argument', and yes, I disliked you have used my name in your 'example'
<jeosol> jackdaniel: is fpm the same as Effing Package Management ?
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<jackdaniel> jeosol: possibly, I can't say
<jackdaniel> never used epm
<jeosol> ok, I searched google, and a fpm github showed up, no worries, i think he just titled his .README that
<verisimilitude> I can be quite eristic when I want, jackdaniel; anyway, I'll avoid using your name, then.
<jeosol> I will take a look
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<jmercouris> LdBeth: Unix is a tragedy? I'm not going to take the bait
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<jmercouris> froggey: interesting, so is GC the only issue?
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<LdBeth> jmercouris: you don’t have to take it seriously, because life itself is a tragedy
<LdBeth> But, you do have to take it
<ecraven> what's a good way to pretty-print lisp code into an epub or a black-and-white pdf for reading on an e-reader?
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<LdBeth> ecraven: I think pygments can do that
<jackdaniel> ecraven: cl-pdf is raw but very useful for creating pdf
<LdBeth> For ePub
<ecraven> the main thing is somehow fontifying strings and stuff, otherwise a plain text file would suffice
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<froggey> jmercouris: for performance, and then only really for things with tight time-constraints like audio
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<froggey> interrupts are another issue because the handlers run in a constrained environment (no allocation, no touching memory that might be paged out)
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<froggey> but this isn't a big deal because interrupt handler generally don't do much. usually they just acknowledge the interrupt on the hardware and wake up a worker thread to do the real work
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<cgay> You've prompted me to look over my collection of old unix haters quotes. Good stuff.
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<cgay> I'll just quote the shortest one here: "Unix, the 'Nam of operating systems."
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<epony> Different goals, tools, targets. It is not all the same.
<epony> (regarding device drivers, I think earlier it was mentioned that the target is Common Lisp)
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<frgo> beach: I pulled the LispOS github repo. How do I create the Documentation?
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<LdBeth> frgo (IRC): I think you just need to get LaTeX setup and run make
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<frgo> LdBeth: Thanks - Installing LaTeX currently...
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<verisimilitude> Well, it's been interesting.
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<makomo> found something pretty interesting: https://lwn.net/Articles/22991
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<makomo> the relevant part is: `GNU emacs used to greet Symbolics users with the message "In doing business with Symbolics, you are rewarding a wrong."` :-)
<makomo> searching for the quote literally, google only gives 3 results in total, weird
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<cgay> heh
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<_death> does have "Symbolics killed the MIT AI lab; don't do business with them." in the changelog
<dlowe> shouldn't you be able to see it in their repo?
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<beach> frgo: Yes, you need LaTeX and then you just time `make'.
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<phoe> Postmodern returns table names as keywords but column names as strings. Is it possible to have it return keywords instead?
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<phoe> Which ironclad digest should I use for hashing passwords? I don't want to go for SHA1 since it smells insecure to me as of late.
<phoe> The current bit of code I have is https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/754#754 - please bash the hell out of it if you see anything wrong with it.
<rme> All the cool kids use bcrypt for that. I don't know if that's in ironclad.
<phoe> rme: I can't find it.
<Shinmera> Colleen: tell phoe look up crypto-shurtcuts
<Colleen> phoe: Unknown archive "crypto-shurtcuts".
<Shinmera> ech
<phoe> Shinmera: thanks, looking at it now.
<Shinmera> pbkdf2 and bcrypt are good choices.
<phoe> Shinmera: there's no bcrypt in ironclad though.
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<Shinmera> but there is pbkdf2
<phoe> yep
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<_death> it also has scrypt
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<jcowan> beach: I have just read the chapter on data representation in the SICL manual, and I would urge you to seriously consider the possibilities of nanboxing on 64-bit systems.
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<LdBeth> jcowan: I guess such a feature is supposed to be implemented as a contrib module
<jcowan> It's a pretty fundamental decision, and controls whether 64-bit floats can be implemented as immediates.
<jcowan> Currently they cannot.
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<jcowan> ("Currently" = "As documented in the manual")
<Bike> is there any chance we could have the log links split up more? both clients i use mess it up
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<Bike> how would you even implement nanboxing as a contrib
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<Shinmera> Bike: You can use the same site as for the #clasp logs. https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
<jcowan> it might make it feasible for IEEE 64-bit floats to be Lisp single floats
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<Bike> to be nan it has to have all 1s in the exponent, or no? seems like that's cutting down the number of bits a fair amount
<jcowan> It's because 64-bit addresses are really only 48 bits wide, or only 47 bits if you exclude kernel space and are not on Solaris.
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<Bike> well i'm thinking of fixnums. shorter fixnums is fine, but not being able to do arithmetic immediately might be sorta painful.
<Shinmera> I'd wager that doubles are far less common in Lisp than integers.
<jcowan> Yes, you'd be limited to 47-bit fixnums too, but how serious is that?
<Bike> it's not, the other part is more concerning.
* jcowan is confused (what other part?)
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<Shinmera> if the exponent is all ones you can't just directly operate on integers like you can when they're lsb-0 tagged.
<Younder> I saw jackdaniels McClim demo yesterday. Pretty cool. Is there a emacs style editor for McClim as the is in CLIM?
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<jcowan> I agree that doubles are less frequent, but I submit that is because Lisp defaults to single-float and single-float is typically IEEE 32.
<Shinmera> Even if the read float type was double float I would still say that integers are far more common.
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<jcowan> Yes, certainly. I'm just wondering if there isn't suitable trickery for doing integer arithmetic without masking off the high tag.
<jcowan> (I am not Ben Bitdiddler.)
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<Shinmera> I'm also not sure I like the idea that performing a bad float op that results in a NAN could suddenly produce something that is interpreted as something other than a double by the implementation.
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<jcowan> Only if it generates a signaling NaN, which AFAIK no CPUs do.
<Shinmera> I would think the quiet NAN is exactly the problem, no? Since then you get a value back that is NAN and might have whatever in the remaining bits.
<aeth> I think double-floats are less common than they could be in part because CL is not the best language for double-floats.
<aeth> And most people are very multilingual.
<aeth> Even so, double-floats will probably be increasingly common over time.
<jcowan> Shinmera: In this scheme, quiet NaNs are doubles (whose value is the abstract NaN); signaling NaNs are pointers, fixnums, characters, or whatever.
<jcowan> Chicken uses a low-bit 1 tag for fixnums (no nanboxing) and does not appear to suffer much performance loss for it.
<Shinmera> So how do you catch if a double op produces a nan? Check manually after every double op?
<jcowan> The assumption is that no double op will produce a signaling NaN
<jcowan> this is certainly true of hardware operations, and you can make it true in software by construction.
<Shinmera> Yeah but you, as a software man, would probably want to know when your ops suddenly produce nans
<Shinmera> I really like that SBCL converts floating point signals into conditions.
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<jcowan> FP signals are unrelated to signaling NaNs. As far as I can tell, nobody uses the latter for anything.
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<Shinmera> I see
<jcowan> The whole point of quiet NaNs is that it makes floating-point numbers into a monad
<jcowan> a variant of Maybe in which Just x is a number and None is a quiet NaN
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<jcowan> (perhaps Either would be a better analogy, although it is not guaranteed that when you put a QNan through an arithmetic operation, you get the same QNan (in the sense of bits) back.
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<jcowan> "Unrelated" was too strong. Attempting to operate on an SNaN does indeed raise an FPE *provided* the processor supports that and the FPP is configured to raise SIGFPE (or equivalent) in that case.
<jcowan> But typically it is not.
<LdBeth> Younder: Climacs.
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<jcowan> Shinmera: So no, I don't always want eager detection of problems. Sometimes retrospective detection is the Right Thing, as an invalidity in one part of a complicated operation may not affect the rest of it. But I hasten to add that I am not really a floating-point programmer myself, and am simply repeating what I have been told.
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